Requiem
01/20/19 08:36 PM
58.175.193.140
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First issue:-
With the emergence of the game we have five remaining successor states and an approximate number periphery states.
However, with the end of the fourth succession war – and the emergence of the Federated Commonwealth - the game developers found themselves in a bind as it has become obvious that within one to two generations a new Star League would emerge from the rubble.
In order to continue the never ending wars within the Inner Sphere the Clans were introduced.
However, what if both the Terran Hegemony and the Rim Worlds Republic were still viable states as at the year 3000 and both had an army comparable to that of either the FWL, FS, DC, or the LC.
Questions:
Would the fall of the CC still be an issue – due to PC concerns – or would the new FC have annexed this state given that there is still five major powers batting for control of the Inner Sphere?
In my opinion annexing the CC would produce an interesting sub-plot for the development of the game.
Would there still be a need for the Clans? As Kerensky decided to protect the Terran Hegemony rather than run away! Rather was forced to stay as his third in command threatened to kill him if he attempted to run away in this time of the Inner Sphere’s greatest need.
And the Rim Worlds Republic, they were able to survive Amaris’ treachery – a coup from within the Republic enabled them to survive Kerensky’s wrath.
Second issue:-
Nuclear Weapons – should there be a weapons system that creates a barrier that negates the use of atomic weapons – say they exist as either large fields within cities, ships, space stations range 500Km – and also small enough that they exist within ‘Mech units range 100Km – centred around a single BattleMech.
Thus the damage inflicted during the First Succession war is not as bad as per Cannon – as nuclear weapons have, for the most part, become obsolete.
Warships / space stations etc. still exist circa. 3000 as well as all the Star League era ‘Mechs etc. (and in vast quantities)
The idea that the Star League is teetering upon the precipice of technological oblivion is also a non-starter …. Let us say each state still retains a high Star League era technology
And ComStar – they still exist as an independent body throughout the Inner Sphere that preserves the communication network.
Thus the Star League is changed …. for the better or the worse?
Third issue:-
Should there have been two maps for game play.
First a larger map for moving battalions / regiments around and also for long range fire – ie increase the range of all weapons by either five or ten to accurately reflect the true range of weapons.
And a second map for company “close quarter” engagements.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
01/20/19 09:07 PM
72.176.187.91
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On your last part about the maps...Note the original box tag line "A tactical game of future armored combat" NOT a strategic game. The scale is set pretty well for an engagement game that doesn't require the living room floor devoid of furniture to play the game on. In other words a table top game.
And they did have a second game for the larger scale combat, it was called Battleforce. Then also there was the Succession Wars board game.
As for the rest of your ideas I suggest checkout out the BattleTech Empires Aflame and BattleTech Welcome to the Nebula California PDFs, everything in those are right up your alley. Plus Empire Aflame would be perfect for what you are talking about.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/21/19 01:01 AM
66.74.60.165
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Step one. The CC may not have been in such dire situations had the hegemony been around. It may well be the successor states would be in the process of being pushed into extinction, as worlds like Hespherus and others near that border, may well be in the Hegemony's hands. OR they could have sided with any side to be rid of a powerful neighbor.
Step two. If the Rim worlds was still around, Kerensky would have failed. Now saying the periphery wars did not take effect, the League might still be around. Now. Barring that, the LC and DC could well be the size of the CC before the 4th war. The rim would definitely have been hitting both, or expanding their borders playing both side of that conflict. The FC would not have come about, or not been even close to the power it was.
The clans would not be around if Kerensky stayed. The exodus would not follow anyone else at that time. So that entire line would not happen.
They could very well have done something similar to the Steiner coliseum, and had a missile detonation area for missiles. Not so much a physical barrier like a force field or shield. Granted, it could still be overwhelmed or disabled thru damage or covert ops.
From what it looks like, warships should have been figured in the original game, but wasn't. The ranges and damage make them sound like a boogie man that they should be, but without anything to oppose them, dominate the area they are in.
And the idea of having warships being made, but no planetary defenses with massed arrays of anti warship weapons around major worlds is a bunch of crap. Those would be more likely then the mobile ships at first. You didn't have to rely on comstar providing engines for them.
Now space stations are around now. They are not weapons platforms which is more of what I believe you are trying to get into. The whole SDS system is more likely to happen in defensive situations with mobile versions being used to invade other systems. Though missiles are more likely to be used, as they are easier and cheaper to replace. Hordes of smaller ones that actually hit something beyond a klick. Cruise missiles come to mind here.
But the tech back when the game was being done wasn't really there. The retro introduction of the League, did not meet the expectations it should have. The tech, itself was underwhelming, and without actually showing the units in 3025 as they would have been in the League is disappointing. Though money grab does come to mind if they had.
Karagin is correct about Battle force and Succession wars.
Imagine the game if the states were the size they were at the beginning of the first war. Then start playing the game with the 3025 units. No extreme advantage or disadvantage for any house.
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Requiem
01/21/19 06:50 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, I agree the historical changes to the entire Battletech universe would be quite radical when you take it to its logical conclusion.
Though by adding the Rim Worlds and the Terran Hegemony as well as allowing the return of the Star League technology I believe you could start with a more dynamic universe.
As for the union of the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth with these two reals separated by the Hegemony the question must be asked could they link up via a Free Worlds League / Canopus corridor?
By adding two new realms I believe the game ‘s overall desirability increases – as the number of combatants increases.
It certainly makes for an interesting hypothetical universe.
As for Battleforce question – here I think a reconsideration is necessary.
Have you ever played Battleforce and as two units close in on each other the battle is transferred to a normal map and miniatures? Thus turning the game into something else.
(Here I believe new rules should be allowed for long range weapons damage as they close such as LRMs – thus the issues regarding the range of weapons becomes moot)
Yes it does make for a very long game – and it does change the dynamic of the overall game – but it also makes for a more interesting game.
Try it with one mixed forced at a combined regiment strength each and give it a go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
01/21/19 07:18 PM
72.176.187.91
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I have tried similar, the idea is not a new one, it doesn't add anything, but a longer game, that takes away from concept, you want fun not adding another two hours or more two the game with the back and forth of rule changes as you progress. The detailed hit by hit of the tactical game is not set for this kind of thing and the confusion of what is going on takes away from things. They are two different games of scale for a reason.
A friend tried something akin to mixing Battleforce and normal Battletech and he called it Mech Strike, allowed for bigger battles where you ran a lance as one unit, it was okay, but still had the same issues BT has, too much dice rolling and chart use. Overall the idea has merit, but it would be a whole NEW game that steps outside of the dynamic of Battletech an in to some thing else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/22/19 01:11 AM
72.176.187.91
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Also, you end up doing the same thing with the RPG system, either you are "roleplaying" mech combat, which in some cases would work but that depends on how into character you and your friends are, or if the GM even allows it, or you are going from the RPG rules right into the normal tabletop rules, and the same issues come into play, minus anything special your characters have going for them and which version of the Mechwarrior roleplaying system you are using.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/22/19 07:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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Battleforce seems to be a quick generic version to end battles quickly. Much like Battlespace is for space battles. X damage from Y fire. 6 fighters does this much damage. Well gee. That means all hit their target, which doesn't happen often when you are at 10+ on hit roles.
Same with crits. A played out fight can cripple units long before armor breach. Lose a weapon or sinks. That changes things.
But again. It was for quick combat resolution.
Now if you want to mix them, then go ahead. I would suggest all mechs in the lance be the same type and model, as having half jump means crossing a stream or chasm that needs jets, means splitting up the lance. Which causes issues with game play.
One more thing on the Rim Worlds. That means the bandit kings in that area would not be there. So that removes some things from the history.
And the FWL/Canopus route? You do realize, Canopus is in the periphery. That would mean going around the CC entirely. Which would make that route very long and dangerous. And if they could to so, that would mean the FWL on the border of that route. Not a pleasant thought.
Maybe you meant Confederation...
I suggested before, and will again. If you want all this stuff, play the game just before the fall of the League. You have all those states there and whole, while tech is still high. If you want Amaris coupe to happen, then do so. If you want to just have warfare break out, then do so. Just make sure your history shows why it happened. Otherwise, it will just be a jumble of unrelated fights. Which is what battletech is if you aren't using 'canon historical' forces and outcomes.
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Requiem
01/22/19 10:06 PM
58.175.193.140
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Ooops … yes, the FC would go through the CC / TH not the MofC to get to the LC. (thinking one thing typing another …… and not fact checking before posting)
Yes I agree we start at the year 3000 and go from there …
How about transposing the Republic of the Sphere as the new Terran Hegemony (geographically), then change the military to remaining Star League Units + others such as the Northwind Highlanders …. Then all we need a back culture to represent this new state …. Can I suggest a “French” Republic Napoleonic era…. Theirs will be based upon a elected government / Republic not a Monarchy … or if a title is required rather than Prince, Coordinator etc how about The Lord Protector of the Star League (after Oliver Cromwell)?
As for the Rim World …. ? … decide on an underlying culture - Then just add the former units prior to Amaris ….
As of how to start with a basic rationalization of these new states
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
01/22/19 10:52 PM
72.176.187.91
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Again there is already an alternative setting for that Empire Aflame, it's a free (did I mention FREE) PDF download from CGL, offers a lot of things you want and has the Terran's around in same time as the ROTS but no ROTS. Highly suggest you check it out.
https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/battletech-adventures-empires-aflame-pdf
And a Google search will give you several supplements (fan made of course) that give you more on Terran military and such set in the Aflame time line. So you can have you super states battling it out with high tech and bigger armies. Without needing to re-invent the wheel.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
01/23/19 04:25 AM
58.175.193.140
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Fortunately for me I enjoy re-inventing the Inner Sphere.
If I use the free download I would use it as a template only.
For me half the fun is inventing a new historical scenario, world, army, people of note so that the universe I create is substantially different from that of the cannon.
For example-
My Camelot Command is similar to the TV show Babylon 5
Using my Fenrir forces to hunt clan forces and supply installations within the Deep Periphery.
FWL Civil war post terrorist bomb blast that killed Thomas et al
The use of Kamikaze fighters post Turtle bay
And the destruction of the CC 3039/3040
And completely ignoring most of the Cannon History …
Now I am looking at an entirely new game universe and starting again from 3000 – also I am thinking about renaming the worlds within my new Republic after towns/cities etc within France itself ….
Tinkering with the Inner Sphere history makes for an interesting game when no one knows what to expect next in the wider universe …. Something that D&D has taught me.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
01/23/19 09:58 AM
72.176.187.91
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Tinkering is fine, but when you have something already done for you, then it's a bit easier to use that and move on to the next part.
Also as I said on another board/social media page, no where in the rules does it say you have to follow canon, you can play the game, aka have your battle and mix anything into it you want from the game regardless of era or who has what and still have a fun game that is enjoyed and you can do this again and again and nothing can stop you short of running out of days to play. Unlike say WH40K where every thing has to be painted and painted to a standard and then you have to have an in game chapter etc...yeah BT allows a lot of things that most games won't.
I have done something similar to the whole latter half of the Jihad with my Terran rebellion stuff, but beyond adding a few worlds, 85% of things are still there that we all know about, just not in the insane and out in left field approach that we saw.
Also my pointing out the Aflame stuff and the Nebula stuff was so you could see that you have resources to use and don't have to go all out from scratch.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/23/19 10:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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Why start in 3025?
Start around 2750, or even before that. Stop the periphery campaign before it started, or nip it, after a few fights. That would allow players to actually write some of the history, as they might be the ones to take say Arcturus before the LC moves to Tharkad, or maybe prevented the assassination of Cameron. Maybe Kerensky was hit, or the target.
3025 was set in the stone ages for the game history. Fixing a few things before they become a huge mess. Some of the holes in the history of the game would have to be changed as the TH would change a lot of it. Have to look at the old maps, but some of the border planets would have to be taken from the TH, and not other houses. That changes some of the end runs, as well as weither the nuke runs happened. Having the SLDF around, might well have prevented nukes from going off, or adding theirs to the attacks on all houses. Instead of Dieron, or Hesperus being whole, they may well be the glowing pile of rubble. Terra being nuked to hell might well happen as well Comstar not forming, or worse, having the TH running the coms would probably be in tact.
As stated, Kerensky staying would destroy the clans and probably the WOB story lines, unless the TH is destroyed by all. The again, the TH might become the merchant house of the houses, so they fight each other, and leave the TH alone. That could well allow them to run the coms for the other houses. Or play king makers.
Basically 3025 for canon was get crawling back out of the stone age. If you want to keep the other states alive, this kind of negates it.
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csadn
01/25/19 12:50 AM
50.53.22.4
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A Thought: Officially, Kerensky left because he had no children[1]; so even if he had installed himself as the new First Lord, "it would only have delayed the inevitable".
[1: It's in one of the first-generation house sourcebooks; I can't remember which. Of course, this also asks the question "so just who the heck is 'Nicholas Kerensky', really?"]
However, it's also repeatedly stated "Kerensky was the only person all the House Lords respected"; so if Kerensky lacked a heir of his own, why could he not take the course of the "Good Emperors" of Rome, and appoint a First Lord who *did* have heirs, while he himself retired to an advisory role?[2] It worked with Jerome Blake as Minister of Communications, after all....
[2: That said: If Kerensky wanted to truly follow the example of the "Good Emperors", he would *NOT* appoint a blood-relation; he would appoint someone from his circle of immediate subordinates -- DeChevalier, for example. It was the appointment of a blood-relation which *ended* the "Good Emperors" -- go figure....]
So: Instead of Kerensky leaving, he decides to stay, and "re-establish" the SL with a new First Lord. However, that FL isn't any of the House Lords; they are all somewhat put-out by this, and each decides to make war upon Kerensky. The SL forces' advantage in tech and numbers is balanced by the sheer volume of space to be fought over; the "Succession Wars" end up grinding both sides to dust, to where 3025 looks as it does in the original game, but with no question as to where Kerensky and his forces went -- they're scattered debris across the IS, much like the House forces which opposed them....
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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