Requiem
04/01/19 06:30 PM
1.158.130.13
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Questions?
When the Second Star League dissolved on the 28th November 3067 was this information never communicated to the Clan Home Worlds and by extension to the 71st Light Horse.
With the Star League Dissolved for second time the reason for the SLDF maintaining an enclave upon Huntress becomes moot.
Thus the 71st should have immediately packed up and returned to the Inner Sphere
Thus the issue of the Light Horse becoming bondsmen is also a non-event
As per Sarna Wiki – “At some point in 3068, Clan Goliath Scorpion took part of the 71st Light Horse Regiment of the Eridani Light Horse Brigade as bondsmen”.
Thought the greater question is why would the CO put her unit up for absorption if they lost the battle in the first place – as this goes against her remit of being a “diplomatic force” upon Huntress – this quite confounds me …. <game developers fiat due to the real world Legal Issues?>
Thus they became Clan Warriors and were subsequently destroyed during the society uprising …
Then you have the Inner Sphere ELH forces destroyed one after another due to nuclear weapons
Thus it appears the ELH has been destroyed …
<Or is their complete destruction ordered due to the real world Legal issues?>
Though, I think the writers forgot about one other unit that could bring the ELH back from the dead …
Go to the Book – Mercenaries Handbook No. 1616 page 65 onwards …. Have a read of this Cannon Book … and read about the ELH’s efficient education system … the Eridani Combat School (refer under Lt. Beth Duncan and others) … the cadets and the school still remain intact … thus the ELH will return !!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/01/19 08:08 PM
72.176.171.47
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Small thing, the ELH had some legal trouble with or something in house with FASA/FanPro, Cray might have more on that, and I believe a search in the forums here someone posted something about the lawsuit over them as well, and the word is canon not cannon, the first refers to lore and the second is artillery.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Eridani_Light_Horse_lawsuit
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (04/01/19 08:20 PM)
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Karagin
04/01/19 08:09 PM
72.176.171.47
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One thing I forgot, the whole Jihad was the lazy way to reset the board so to speak, it was setup to remove things like warships and uber-units like the Dragoons and Hounds along with others, thus the elite units became former shadows of their earlier selves.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/02/19 02:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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The creator of the Light Horse supposedly said to the developers that he wanted to keep one lance as his own. The developers said no, and dropped the Light Horse from the game.
So unless this is resolved, the Light Horse is just another dead unit.
As for in game reasons, I can think that the collapse of the League could well have actually stranded the units in clanspace, as there would be no funding to continue operations. I would doubt the Light Horse or any unit in clan space at that time, had their own dropships there to haul them back to the IS when the league collapsed.
I would think all houses were scrambling to get their jumpships back into their areas to avoid losing them. So even the long time serving as a merc for House Davion, it is doubtful the Davions would risk their jumpships trying to bring them back.
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Requiem
04/02/19 02:55 AM
1.158.130.13
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Sorry but no, I would disagree on this point - being a military unit upon Huntress they must have their own exit strategy that is not based upon the principle of …. If it gets bad we will send up a red flare and hope to be rescued …. You cannot just leave them there swinging in the wind, they must have their own exit strategy …. As no one knows how the Clans history will play out … the crusaders could start another invasion …. And if they do the only warning the IS will get is from an ELH unit who escaped quick enough and raced the clans to the IS.
If they do not have drop-ships and jmp-ships then the only warning the IS will get regarding a second invasion is when the invasion commences within the IS.
So, can I assume that they should have a Davion black box and the Jump-ships are just one jump away, hidden in depths of space ready to jump at a moments’ notice if called upon and as such they have their own Dropships to make a run to the jump point if and when needed.
This makes for a more strategic and tactical early warning bell regarding any adventurism by the Home Clans.
Though in my alt. universe they still remain - as well as the Black Thorns and Grey Death and others ......
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Frabby
04/02/19 06:46 AM
84.185.67.230
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Quote:
The creator of the Light Horse supposedly said to the developers that he wanted to keep one lance as his own. The developers said no, and dropped the Light Horse from the game.
So unless this is resolved, the Light Horse is just another dead unit.
This statement was simplified to the point where it isn't correct anymore, so before anyone takes this at face value and rumors start spreading I'll try to provide some clarification:
1. The ELH was one of the original five merc units detailed in the first BT rulebook, and thus was part of the setting right from the beginnnig. Both in- and out-of-universe, they essentially tied for the top spot with Wolf's Dragoons. They featured in several sourcebooks (including a full writeup in the first Merc Handbook) and novels (including a prominent role in Wolves on the Border).
2. A sourcebook for the ELH was solicited from Scott Malcomson, and he submitted it (don't know if the work was complete). But it was never published, nor do I think there was ever a proper written contract for the work because that usually only happens when the work is completed, accepted, and about to be published. This didn't happen in this case, and the ELH sourcebook project somehow petered out.
Malcomson took a special liking to one tank commander mentioned by name in the original Merc Handbook - not written by Malcomson - named (iirc) Roy Calbeck. It was really just a name attached to a Galleon tank in the unit's TOE, with no other information or even character building whatsoever. In Malcomson's history, while the ELH was hammered in the Clan invasion he survived and became an important character.
3. In the early days of the internet, the history that Malcomson had written for this sourcebook somehow found its way onto a fan website. This technically marks it as fanon.
4. FanPro struck a deal with the site owner and the fansite became the official BattleTech website. For unknown reasons, Malcomson's writeup for the ELH history remained on the site and Malcomson thus claimed it became canon, by virtue of being published on the official BT site with FanPro's blessings. (FanPro/Topps meanwhile held that the "publication" was accidental at best, and explicitly declared the ELH history bit to be not canon.)
5. While FanPro/Topps may have fought back against Malcomson's attempt to force his piece into canon on general principle, one particular sticking point was that Malcomson was also into furries and somehow conflated the Roy Calbeck character into something like a furry unicorn, after death or a near-death experience. May have been in jest, but certainly rubbed the IP holders the wrong way. They would have nothing of it, and that in turn prompted Malcomson to bring his claims to court that he had contributed to BT canon and was therefore now a co-owner of the BattleTech IP. He lost the case. It was ultimately left open wether he had conributed to canon because it is the IP owners who get to decide what they want to treat as canon (and Malcomson's work they certainly didn't); the court's main reasoning was that whatever contribution to BT he may have made, it was not substantial enough to warrant co-ownership and the case had no merit.
6. As a result of the overall mess, CGL lost interest in the ELH and decided to let the storied unit die unglamorously and off-screen (or at least ignore them to death). BattleCorps would outright reject submissions that dealt with the ELH.
It's a small miracle that Blaine Pardoe could include them in his novel Forever Faithful.
Edited by Frabby (04/02/19 06:50 AM)
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Cray
04/02/19 08:19 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
2. A sourcebook for the ELH was solicited from Scott Malcomson, and he submitted it (don't know if the work was complete).
Some details are found in one of the rulings, which is in fairly plain English:
https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20100201491
"Malcomson was invited to submit a proposal "on spec" for FASA's consideration, meaning that "FASA retain[ed] the option to reject the work even after [Malcomson] submitted" his completed manuscript. (See Dkt. # 54 at ¶ 14.) In 1993, Malcomson submitted his proposed ELH manuscript (the "Submission"), and from 1993 to 1996, FASA and Malcomson exchanged several letters about the content of the Submission. In September 1996, however, FASA, determined not to publish Malcomson's Submission."
The punch line:
"Nevertheless, even if the Court takes Malcomson's unsupported factual arguments as true, Malcomson's claim for joint ownership of the BattleTech property is without merit."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/02/19 11:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Requiem.
In the history of the game, how many units were left behind the lines as there was no way to move the unit due to a lack of ships?
The ELH has their own, but with becoming part of the SLDF, they would be relying on League logistics to be that far out.
And as we know from the first invasion, there is a line of coms from the clan worlds to the IS.
Now it is a bit of a stretch, but the last jumpship to make it out of clan space, may well have started sending the information back to the IS. Or the Wardens could have done so. Even some of the Crusaders could have sent word, as they wanted those leading it to fail. They did have some time to learn the IS tactics of sabotague of superior officers. It was already happening in the initial clan invasion.
Second. The idea of no ships, verses no ships available to take the unit isn't one and the same. Supply ships, and even rotation of units happens, and needs ship. There could well have been a ship leaving clan space, or being informed that the clans are heading back in, that got word out. The ship sending the message may well have died while doing so.
A bit of a stretch, but not impossible.
As a side note, a dropship could have done the run, and not been able to take any part of the unit. Hell, even just a shuttle joining up with something outbound would suffice.
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Requiem
04/03/19 02:41 AM
1.158.130.13
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ghostrider, hypothetical based upon my own opinion (free to disagree), I would assume that you have your own unit to which you identify as yours, as an independent unit, would you sign your unit onto a contract / be ordered to Huntress with the knowledge that your Jump-ships will be returning to the IS after you have taken over the Huntress Garrison?
That is, would you trust the government to rescue you if there was a problem on the Clan Home Worlds? Given that it could take up to nine to twelve months (depending on the route taken) before a relief force arrived with enough Drop-ships to extricate your entire unit.
Probably not? … would you want your own exit strategy, just in case?
Second, being part of the Star League Government, if something went wrong on the Clan Home Worlds and a new invasion fleet was being mustered would you not want a Jump-Ship to send a message – if there is there is no way the ELH would be able to gain access to a jump-ship or to any form of communication device - this invasion would surprise everyone – so, even if one Jump-ship was able to escape and only one ELH soldier escaped (if they are quick enough) there could be a warning.
Thus they must have their own fleet to extricate in the event of any unforeseen problem!
Third, as a military and political compound upon Huntress – military ELH and a Governor – you cannot deal with what ifs – you must deal in certainties - thus the need for your own Jump-Ships – However, I always thought they had diplomatic immunity as a diplomat within an embassy for a foreign country has? Am I wrong?
Fourth, as for rotation of supplies – can you see any of Inner Sphere Houses or even the ELH themselves organize such a venture, I can’t, they would be sent there with enough supplies to last them for the duration of their stay. Plus they would also be able to purchase additional supplies (foodstuff and the like) from other clans non-warriors in the event they needed to re-stock.
I am convinced that a Fleet of Jump-ships would be in the vicinity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
04/03/19 06:58 PM
50.53.22.4
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In short: Yet another shining example of "why one should never do business with FAlSeA, CGL, or any of its associates Ltd."
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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ghostrider
04/04/19 02:01 AM
66.74.60.165
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Not all units have their own transports. The ELH did. But would they really have jumpships sent out to the clan home worlds?
The alt may well do so, but I doubt the League was going to pay for them to send those ships. The League would have their own ships heading out there, so there would be no reason to pay the ELH to send theirs.
All units would love to have their own transports. But having them in system, and being able to use them is not always one and the same.
Outside of the alt, operations rarely had enough supplies to do mission with them. And honestly, if the length of duty is over 4 months, it is not likely to have all the supplies there, as they would have other ships coming to them.
Though this could very well be used to suggest the clans wouldn't have needed supply lines during the initial invasion. They would have all the supplies they needed for the first few waves, and then have the rest of the supplies come all at once. Anything else is risking them being hit. Even by other clans.
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Frabby
04/04/19 02:21 AM
80.187.87.125
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Quote:
In short: Yet another shining example of "why one should never do business with FAlSeA, CGL, or any of its associates Ltd."
Uh... what? Seriously? Care to explain how you came to that conclusion?
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Requiem
04/08/19 07:27 AM
1.158.130.13
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Refer Sarna.net - The Seventeenth Battle for Hesoerus II – 3 January 3145 …. Leaving the Eridani Light Horse and several smaller mercenary commands to face Khan Malvina Hazen ….
Where the few Light Horse that attempted to escape into the mountains, were hunted down to the last soldier by the sadistic Falcons.
What an inglorious end for such a noble unit ….. such an act is unbecoming of such petulance….
Question:
Khan Beckett Malthus made an assassination attempt upon Khan Malvina Hazen
and
During this battle Malvina ordered that her nuclear weapons be ready for use in case of failure ….
I can remember a time when the Wolverines were accused of using such a device …. And yet now it is acceptable for a Khan of another Clan to use them in 3145 … and then assassination rather than a circle of equals … How low have the clans sunk that they would consider these actions acceptable … where is the vaunted honour of the Clans now?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/08/19 03:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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Malvina was deranged to begin with. And in the one novel, she said she was out to destroy the Falcons. When(I think it was) Alex was killed, she had no brake to stop it from getting worse.
This is not the first time a unit was hunted down to the last man. Even the Falcons did that to a few units during the invasion. Hell, if you think about it, all the invasion clans did so. Granted those that surrendered to the clans were not killed, so there may be a difference in that.
Now. The Wolverines is different, not because of the use of the nuke, but where it hit. Destroying a named 'dezgra' unit would allow some leeway, though a nuke would show the Falcon warriors incapable of taking them out with ground forces.
And going back to the lawsuit, I can see WHY the had to destroy the ELH. And during this time, the IS corruption had taken hold. The very corruptive influence you said should have been used against the clans during the initial invasion.
This was not the first assassination attempt done in the clans. The only reason it is big, is because of WHO was involved.
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Requiem
04/08/19 05:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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I am angry and disappointed in how the ELH - one of the founding units - was “removed” from the canon history. They ran and were hunted down? …. In victory….malice ….. or should we say a child’s petulance?
As for Malvina utilizing nukes and the assassination attempt upon her …. The Clans have now become that which they hated, their culture is now the same as that of the IS!
Free to lob WMDs around without any care as to the long term damage they cause – they are now part of the bid…. 3 ‘Mechs, a star of elementals, two aerospace-fighters and 4 Tactical nuclear weapons ………………………
Honorable Clan combat is no more! – so they might as well give up bidding as well as all the old rules that held them back and embrace their new life as conquerors – might makes right …. Only the gun and the dagger will get you what you want.
The old Clan society has been replaced – they have no place in the IS other than a roving band of bandits – they are now no better than the Mongols and Vandals of old.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
04/08/19 06:09 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
I am angry and disappointed in how the ELH - one of the founding units - was “removed” from the canon history. They ran and were hunted down? …. In victory….malice ….. or should we say a child’s petulance?
I'd recommend looking at the other side of the story. An author whose submission on the ELH started as mostly copy-n-paste from prior ELH articles took BattleTech as high as the US Supreme Court claiming partial ownership of the entire BattleTech franchise because of a few pages on the ELH.
One ruling is discussed in fairly plain English here: https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20100201491
While judge after judge slapped down the lawsuit, BattleTech is an IP that has gone through a lot of trouble over intellectual property arguments like the Unseen/Reseen. It was a safe move to remove the ELH from the game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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