Was Tukayyid really a victory?

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
Karagin
05/20/19 10:24 PM
72.176.171.47

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
With this being the day to remember the stand of the ComGuard against the Clan Horde on Tukayyid, one has to ask, did they win the victory that was truly needed for the Inner Sphere?

The battle broke both sides, and while it did stop the Clans from pushing on to Terra, did it really help the Inner Sphere?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
05/21/19 03:24 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The answer is …. NO… they did not win in the long run!

Yes, there was a military victory and yes the inner sphere was given 15 years.

However, you must ask yourself what was achieved in this time frame

Yes there was a return of the Star League, but the leaders (game developers) of this time frame just wasted the time completely in that they attacked just one Clan and they attacked with the limited forces at their disposal and the limited weapon systems at their disposal.

If they had used this time to their utmost and re-built a new army with new Inner Sphere Omni Mechs / Vehicles / aerospace fighters / Power Armour and new weapon systems on the same scope of the Clans and then attacked with this new army at some-time after the 13th or 14th year and went for the jugular of ALL OF THE CLANS that had not sworn fealty to the Star League, anything else was just a complete and utter waste of the precious time gained by those Com Guards who laid down their lives to secure the freedom for the people of the Inner Sphere.

So they may have won the battle but the leaders ensured the loss of the war by allowing all of the belligerent Clans to remain within the Inner Sphere. Only by their complete exile / destruction could there have been a final victory.

PS – can some-one explain to my why when those clans that decided to become part of the Star League they were not given the ultimatum that yes you can be a part of the Star League and have a voting seat on the council but you also must assist us in producing clan level technology weapons – ie. with being a member your techs will help all the inner sphere military industrial complexes be producing Clan level weapons within the next 10 years? As this makes no sense whatsoever that this was also not a condition ….

Thus as the Inner Sphere’s new SLDF is being produced with Omni weapons by the tenth year in they are beginning to receive new omni weapons packages that will put them on par with the Clans. Thus at the end of the 13th / 14th year when the SLDF finally attacks all of the remaining clans and their forces could eject them from the Inner Sphere.

As is this not the ultimate political goal of the Star League and the SLDF – to remove the clans from the IS and not just one of them?

As written it does not provide for any political reality.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Carns
05/21/19 12:00 PM
168.9.128.5

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
How quaint.

Tukayyid is what kept 7 of the 20 Clans from reaching Terra in 3053. Four Clans would have been there in 3051 without Trya Miraborg.

The 3040s were a curious time when a few discoveries had been made, but very few new weapon designs were being actively deployed into the militaries of the Inner Sphere. The War of 3039 had showcased exactly how bad even really good mechwarriors were at fighting against Mech designs that they found unfamiliar.

The Inner Sphere at the beginning of the Invasion was simply unprepared and unable to defend a single world, much less retaliate or retake any territory. The mauling of the FC and the DC did not stop until Radstadt. That's when Jamie Wolf let them all in on the secret, and gave them the information that they needed to even begin to formulate a strategy.

The Clans returned reinforced for an even quicker campaign.

Utilizing their most elite units, by equipping them with the latest weaponry, and by finding their most favorable terrain, the FC and DC finally got a victory each. They got a shared victory at Luthien by combining all of the absolute best of the DC with the most elite mercenary commands in service of the FC. This still highlighted a severe issue.

The Inner Sphere could only win battles when it massively overpowered the Clans with overwhelming numbers of well equipped troops. Both the FC and the DC were busily exhausting their short supply of those, and the disparate tech bases were not conducive to making great use of any Clan salvage they should manage to take in. The Inner Sphere may have won the occasional battle and limited engagement, but it was very clearly losing the war... a war that thus far only included less than half of the total number of Clans. The Inner Sphere had just recently increased production to meet the new demand, but that would take YEARS to replace just the material that was lost; pilots were another thing entirely.

Tukayyid was Focht's employment of the lessons learned. He employed one of the most massive stockpiles of advanced weaponry and the troops to pilot them. En Masse, he used these forces to grind down six of the seven Clans toumans of front line Omnimechs to virtually nothing. The ComGuard was also left depleted, first by its losses, and then half the remaining to schism.

The Clans were prepared... this is what they do. New troops were already trained. New Mechs were already on their way to the Inner Sphere. They only had to wait... and waiting is the only thing they were not prepared for.

The Inner Sphere, however, needed a moment. Hanse was dead. The Combine was healing old wounds. Comstar in the middle of a religious battle. Comstar stayed strong in its resolve against the Clans ignoring the Word of Blake, but the others were forced to deal with the realities of what was happening in their empires, as the stresses of a wartime economy allow outsiders a way to power.

The point is, the Clans CHOSE to honor the Tukayyid agreement. Or rather, Ulric chose to. Had they not, their was very little the remaining Inner Sphere forced could have done about it. It took about 5 years for the IS to be able to put forward enough total combined troops to face a single Clan.

So, precisely, exactly how were the IS supposed to FORCE seventeen remaining Clans into submission immediately post-Tukayyid?
ghostrider
05/21/19 01:58 PM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
It was a victory, but not a lasting one. The respite from having to rush more forces into the path of the clans allowed them to breath a little. But the developers decided to keep war going, by all the problems, which in most aspects was logical.

Explaining why the SLDF didn't force the clans to share their technology. Because they did not force the IS houses to share their tech. Trying to force the clans to, would be showing the hypocracy of the League.
The lack of using all forces 'available' to the league shows a the understanding of politics and normal distrust by all houses in the IS. The FC didn't share all their resources and secrets between the FS and LC. How could they even begin to trust the other houses, and vis versa?
Breaking the truce at any time would have enraged all the clans, and shown that the crusaders were partially correct. The corrupt houses could not honor any deal made.

The clans did not reinforce the initial 4 for a quicker victory. They brought in more as political means to slow down the Falcon/Jaguars by Ulric, and the realization that the first four would not be able to accomplish the deed. The IS had shown, they were not the weak pushovers the clans thought.
Even the wolves were losing warriors, they could not replace easily, and any attempt to push the four would bleed them dry, allowing the home clans to start major actions to remove them from clan history.
One thing that needs to be reminded, is the clans could bring down more forces then the bid was for. So defeating those down, did not stop the fight. Lose of honor and respect ensued from bringing in more, but doing so, was not unique. And as the IS was prepared for other houses, the clans way of life was completely different then the IS was.
Granted, the greater range, and more damage went very far to making the IS lose that much quicker, especially when the IS had no clues on what the clan forces could actually do.
FrabbyModerator
05/21/19 01:59 PM
84.185.65.45

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Tukayyid was a victory.

It was a costly victory that in itself had the seeds of conflicts to follow.
But it was the victory that staved off imminent defeat in the Clans' drive towards Terra. If there had been an ilClan and the Inner Sphere - as usual - still refused to play ball, the united Clans' gloves would have come off and we would have seen a different kind of Jihad. One like the Wars of Reaving, only engulfing the Inner Sphere. No restraint against the barbarians. And the WarShip ratio was something like 400 : 3 in the Clans' favor.

So yes, for all its costs and consequences, I'll chalk Tukayyid up as a victory.

Oh, and one more thing: The Refusal War was also a consequence of Tukayyid. Though orchestrated by Ulric Kerensky, it amounted to him taking the opportunity ComStar's victory had created, and intensifying its effects on the Clan side.
Carns
05/21/19 03:07 PM
168.9.128.5

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
""The clans did not reinforce the initial 4 for a quicker victory. They brought in more as political means to slow down the Falcon/Jaguars by Ulric, and the realization that the first four would not be able to accomplish the deed. The IS had shown, they were not the weak pushovers the clans thought.
Even the wolves were losing warriors, they could not replace easily, and any attempt to push the four would bleed them dry, allowing the home clans to start major actions to remove them from clan history.""

You are presuming knowledge that you would not have had in 3052. Outside of a handful of people who knew the truth, Ulric the Warden was now Ulric the Crusader, bound by the decisions of the Grand Council. The stated purpose for the backup Clans being activated was because the others were lagging behind the Wolves. It was a calculated insult. The Clans had in fact found the IS to be laughable pushovers, and a remote handful of IS victories in very specific situations did not alter that perception.

The only force in the Inner Sphere that had any chance of stopping the Clans at that moment was the ComGuard.
CrayModerator
05/21/19 06:12 PM
97.101.136.19

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
The battle broke both sides, and while it did stop the Clans from pushing on to Terra, did it really help the Inner Sphere?



The negotiated terms of the Battle of Tukayyid included a pause on the Clan advance for 15 years, which gave the Inner Sphere's Houses breathing room to recover from their earlier mauling by the Clans. By 3057, the Inner Sphere was ready to counterattack and launched Operation Bulldog and the Great Refusal - those wouldn't have been possible if the Clans had been allowed to continue their advance in 3052.

For the Inner Sphere, the breathing period of 3052 to 3057 included vital expansion of lostech factories that had only been starting in the 3040s, introduction of new generations of Inner Sphere units with Star League-era technology and even WarShips (e.g., TR:3055, TR:3057), crude reverse engineering of Clan technologies to expand beyond Star League lostech (e.g., the Clans gave the Inner Sphere inspiration to build IS UAC 2's, 10's, and 20's, and IS ER small and medium lasers), and time to incorporate Clan-fighting tactics into their militaries.

Had ComStar lost Tukayyid, the Inner Sphere wouldn't have had those years of recovery. First Clan to Terra (c3053?) would've been ilClan and could've called in all the remaining Clans to the Inner Sphere.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Requiem
05/21/19 08:08 PM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
It was a victory? …… really …..?????

Sorry but this dog don’t hunt.

Yes they won the Battle and gained 15 years breathing room … and this was magnificent and yes this can be considered to be a victory.

However, what was done with their 15 year victory ensured that their victory was miss-managed.

We have met the enemy and the enemy is us! (or in reality the game developers who do not understand politics / military strategy and never picked up a history book!)

What should have been the ultimate political and military goal of the newly reformed Star League?

Ans: It is regaining ALL OF THE INNER SPHERE FOR THE INNER SPHERE, thus removing / destroying all of those Clans within the Inner Sphere that have not switched sides, so that they can regain their lost territory and their people to their original Houses.

Or do you believe we should just write off these people and condemn them to an eternal Clan way of life?

So, do you really consider what you have written?

Let me go back to my WW2 analogy – what you are saying is the German forces can keep France, Poland etc if we just take back Italy. This is what you are saying when you say that the newly reformed SLDF should only just take out the Jaguars!!!!!!!

Remember this war is NOT against all of the clans it is only against those clans that are within the Inner Sphere that have not switched sides. The Clans own rules of war ensure that it is not a war against all of the Clans unless you break the bid and attack all of the Clans on the Clan home worlds.

By limiting it to just those clans within the Inner Sphere are you not only just expanding the decision when the Jaguars were the only target to all of these clans?

This can only be achieved by utilizing the 15 years they won to their utmost, and this can only be achieved by ….

Establishing a new SLDF – where they can use the a war of attrition in necessary;
Incorporating into the SLDF new Omni weapon systems etc;
Forcing their new clan allies into providing clan level weapon systems for the new SLDF;
(if you believe this was not done because it was hypocrisy you have not been paying attention to politicians / military strategy – by reducing the technology gap you increase your chances of winning the war – and this is why they would have demanded it.)
As for Warships …
This is why the IS would produce smaller stealthier pocket warships / patrol boats / submarine class vessels armed with long range high yield nuclear warheads – one hit or even close hit should kill off any warship and its crew – despite the “interesting” rules as written;
Also this war would no longer incorporate the Ares Rules of War – it is now Total War – thus Jumpships are now a valid first strike target – removing their ability to move from world to world will also ensure final victory;

Taking this won time, 15 years, and using it to its utmost is the final victory – by not utilising it ensures that they were just wasted lives lost.

They would have been better spent by implementing a war of attrition – there is no way the clan sibko system could have replaced their lost warriors if the IS moves to a total war – this means the introduction of nukes.

Sorry, but I completely disagree, yes they may have won the battle, yes they did give the IS 15 years to rebuild and re-arm, but the actions of the house leaders in the ensuring years (as per canon history) made that win into a loss.

Go back and re-read Focht – have a look at all of his actions to ensure the safety of the Inner Sphere – he even gave up Terra to the Word of Blake, to fight the Falcons ….

By not fighting ALL OF THE remaining belligerent Clan forces and only concentrating on one Clan made a mockery of the win on Tukayyid.

By not driving off all of the Clans have a look of the mess the IS is in as per the 3150 Canon history - wolf empire etc.!

Being critical of what was written above I must say the way many of you are looking at this is as through it is through a microscope only – looking at the battle only – you need to incorporate not only the battle of Tukayyid but the 15 years they won into the final evaluation, and in the final evaluation the 15 years won was miss used by only attacking one Clan (Jags) and giving up on the remaining Inner Sphere worlds conquered by the other Clans – why should only the DC benefit from the removal of the Jags only? Politically it must be everyone benefits or no one benefits and the Star League never reforms!

As written it just does not make the grade.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/21/19 11:22 PM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Requiem. The battle itself was a victory. What came after was less then adequate.

(or in reality the game developers who do not understand politics / military strategy and never picked up a history book!) This statement here suggest something that will probably get me a warning, but I feel it needs to be said.
This idea of all governments would just drop hundreds of years of hatred and distrust, in order to send everything in the armies to attack a foe shows a lack of politics.
The who issue with Sun Tzu and his warmongering with the League forces is what would have happened to the whole of the IS had they done so.
As none of the houses have really gained back territory lost in the succession wars, the statement of the IS has to reclaim their lands hasn't happened before in the entire history of the IS. Why now?
The IS barely held on with 4 then 6 clans with 1 back up. Having all clans attack and no restraint, as the wardens would back the crusaders, would have destroyed the IS. The whole sphere would be in ruins for the most part. The clans could not hold it, unless they got reinforcements from the IS itself. Numbers is alls the IS had at that time, and no real numbers of warships outside of Comstar. This alone, would give the clans a horrible advantage, if they dropped the civility of not outright destroying IS assets, as jumpships was the ONLY way to move between the stars in the IS. The Alt has no voice here. This is canon history.
Now, not knowing politics, would it not be better to have some of the clans join the IS, to help stop the others, and upgrade your forces? The enemy of my enemy comes to mind.
Would the clans have done so? Without the League name, probably not.

The Clans own rules of war ensure that it is not a war against all of the Clans unless you break the bid and attack all of the Clans on the Clan home worlds.
Forgetting the fact the Northwind Highlands did indeed attack other clans during their excursion into the periphery? They attacked the Nova Cats under the guise of being Jaguars. Also, with what you suggest, it would be an attack against all the clans in the IS at once.

This can only be achieved by utilizing the 15 years they won to their utmost, and this can only be achieved by ….
I understand this is your opinion, but by saying the only way, suggests you have not actually looked beyond what the initial thoughts that came while pondering this.

By not fighting ALL OF THE remaining belligerent Clan forces and only concentrating on one Clan made a mockery of the win on Tukayyid.
This suggests that stopping the invasion was not a win, and that full war with all the clans was the goal to begin with. That was the goal of Focht. What the leaders did was go back to their hatreds of each other, then deal with the clans. As it would logically be. The closest enemy needs to be destroyed, and hopefully, it weakens those enemies beyond them.

And last. The feeling the FC is the only one that should benefit from anything, is clouding the decision. The DC is the only one that benefitted from the Jaguars being destroyed? Look again. The clans gave up the invasion ideas when they were destroyed. The Crusaders lost a lot of power, as their views were proven wrong.

And last, the lack of wars, does not make the company money, which causes further bad ideas for wars. I hate some of the canon things, but it is what it is. Not much will be changed unless they rewrite the whole thing.
csadn
05/22/19 04:27 AM
50.53.22.4

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
<- looks at "current" IS map

Nope -- not by a long shot.

The Clan Invasion is an "existential conflict": There can be no compromise, no half-measure -- either the Clans rule all of the former SL territory; or they are destroyed, root and branch. So long as even one Clan remains (and I believe that was Nicky's original intent -- the Clans battle each other until they are a unified whole, *then* go after the IS), the IS is under threat. To paraphrase a line from an ancient work: "They cannot be bargained with; they cannot be reasoned with; they do not understand Fear, or Pity, or Mercy, or Remorse; and they *absolutely* *WILL* *NOT* *STOP* -- *EVER* -- until you are defeated."

[Side Note: We'll ignore for the moment the simple fact that there is no way the Clan Invasion could have played out as it did -- with no tech more advanced than XL Engines, Double Heat Sinks, and Gauss Rifles; and with a heaping helping of helicopters, Yr. Obd. Srvt. was slaughtering the Clans in ways which would have made George Romero ill -- or the Lazy Writing used to justify the continued grinding-out of product.]
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
ghostrider
05/22/19 06:37 PM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
csadn. That might be the issue with the novels and how things turned out. Those that wanted to destroy the IS, were made to look like power mad psychos, that would do what ever they could to become leader of all, while making others look like they were not interested in becoming the master of all. Crusaders being power mad, while the wardens were not that way.
This alone seems to have changed the whole concept of no fear, pity, mercy or remorse.

As the story line progressed, you see more and more that perceptions change about the no fear line. The whole trial is set up to show mercy, as it would be easier to just kill all at a factory or some such, then deal with having to feed and risk a revolt.
The stories showed some fear and pity as well. Remorse came as well. So the clans were not the mindless killing machines they were originally supposed to be. The Dragoons original entry into the IS wasn't the blood thirsty monsters. So how could that be if the entire clan populace was like that?

The overpowering effects of Vtols in the board game, doesn't hold up well with the stand and deliver concept that seems to be what the game (novels) seem to preach. Otherwise, assaults would not be the 'dreaded' monsters. They would be more of a death trap, as they couldn't do much against the fast moving, hard hitting mediums.
But then, the first rule of invasion is to take out any flying unit the enemy has. So Vtols should be destroyed on the ground, or hit any time they show up by fighters.
Also the lack of real sensor guidelines means you see any unit unless using double blind unit. Which would very much allow units to hide until a vtol unit is within range and wipe them out. I know this isn't possible all of the time, but having your vtols in the middle of an assault unit that can fire on them will good hits changes this.
Requiem
05/22/19 07:23 PM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Less than adequate? …….. how droll!

Let us consider the alliances of Europe of the last hundreds of years – how many alliances changed over time so that your ally today was your enemy tomorrow – have a look a the Napoleon Wars – the Mongol Invasion – and then finally the alliances made in WW2 and then to the Cold War.

This is the reality of politics and war –“needs must as the devil drives”

As for Sun Tzu – he only pops up in the Canon history – in all reality he would not be a problem due to – First the CC should have been absorbed in the FC during the war of 3039/40 – and Second the lawyers when establishing the Star League would have made sure the position was ceremonial only there would have been no power whatsoever with the position – the game’s developers completely misunderstood the rule of law in this case just so they could reform the CC – a point that could never have occurred in reality.

The Houses never gained territory during the succession wars? – then why was half of the CC absorbed into the FC and how did we get the Terran Corridor between the FS and LC?

As for the war with the clans – re-read all my other posts as to the absurdity of the Clan invasion – it was written by the game developers so that they could get their way and neutralize the rise of the FC – in reality if it was written correctly it would have become a Total war as from the end of wave 1 – Hose Kurita would have started using Nukes thanks to Turtle bay – so the rest of the Inner Sphere’s forces would have followed suit thereafter – plus it would have become a war of attrition (a War of numbers!) thus the sibko training program could never have supplied enough warriors for them to win in the long term.

The cannon as written it is an abysmal story arc with no thought as to reality whatsoever they may have won some of the initial waves however over the long term with the destruction of many of their supply fleets, the integration of captured Clan material into the IS military, the destruction of their Jump-ship fleets and the reduction in warriors even their superior technology could not have saved them they would have eventually been ejected from the inner sphere. As written the canon history is complete joke!

Dis not the Cats and the Bears join the Star League? – so again why when they joined were the Inner Sphere still restricted to their technology (as per Huntress) – these two actions alone show how biased the writers / game developers were to the Inner Sphere – as both of these two actions should have ensured the Inner Sphere should have made a quantum leap with regards to technology - with medical, engineering, military at the forefront.

Again this is completely unbelievable and shows how limited in thinking the canon history is – no one thought through the consequences of their actions to their fullest and “looked beyond what the initial thought that came while pondering this”!

As for Tukayyid – as stated before – yes it was a win in that the Inner Sphere was given a reprieve of 15 years. The problem is what was done with these 15 years in the Canon history in reality all of the Inner Spheres military industrial complexes would have begun a total re-armament process similar to that of America during WW2

When discussing benefits to each House – look at the planets re-acquired from the Clans – the DC retrieved how many from the Jags and the Cats and how many did the FC retrieve from the Falcons / Wolves? This is the ultimate political sticking point – there is no way in hell in reality that Prince Victor would go ahead with a one Clan front that benefited on the DC (in getting back their worlds only!) – it must be all or none as the dukes and the people of every great house would never allow their lords to implements such a limited front – their people would demand the return of ALL OF THEIR WORLDS not just hose captured by the Jags.

So no it is not a clouded decision it is the only decision the people of every hose would allow – remember the people are the powerbase from which the lords gain their power or do we need another What Tylor peasant’s revolt or Runnymead – to think otherwise is just ludicrous.

So were are ……
- anti elemental rifles for infantry;
- partisan attacks in the clans rear area – as their garrisons for the majority of their worlds could have been only a trinary;
- anti clan forces operating within the periphery to curtail any shipments of supplies (wolf packs used by Germany and America in WW2);
- the introduction of a carrier naval war (fighters armed with nukes) against Clan Warships;
- etc. etc.

The cannon story arc is completely unbelievable it is time that the brand was re-launched with a new white knight company at the helm who is willing to re-write the entire game from the start.

And the introduction of these new wars will generate money for the company – as stated in my writings – there will be additional wars not only within the IS but also within the Periphery.

So yes they do need to re-write the whole thing.

To think the IS can live next to a Mongol Empire (The Clans) is completely ludicrous – they will always attack you you can never have peace until they are no longer on your border!!!!!!!

This is the only IS political reality.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/23/19 12:27 AM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
As for Sun Tzu – he only pops up in the Canon history – in all reality he would not be a problem due to – First the CC should have been absorbed in the FC during the war of 3039/40 – and Second the lawyers when establishing the Star League would have made sure the position was ceremonial only there would have been no power whatsoever with the position – the game’s developers completely misunderstood the rule of law in this case just so they could reform the CC – a point that could never have occurred in reality.
This could be said about Germany. Yet it was reformed and became a major power in the democratic world. If not for Gorbachov (?), it would have stayed split. So real world actions are supporting the writers. I agree that the CC should have been one of the periphery states for power after the 4th war, and still think the combine was the proper target for 3039. The bs of comstar saving them is where this seems to fall into a hole. Granted, Walterly was pro Combine, so it does have some points in it.

The Houses never gained territory during the succession wars?
They never regained all their territory. The FS and LC lost lands to the DC, and the DC still lost lands to both. I will grant, I did not say all in the first response, so that left open some issues.

The use of nukes may have been used, but not on your own territory. IF, and that is a big if, they had known about the clans routes when they first invaded, and had warships to hold of the clans, then they could have been raiding the clan supplies. But neither happened until Comstar got involved. Had Comstar sided with the IS when the clans first got here, then I agree. The invasion would have been stopped a few jumps in from the periphery. Intel is the key here. Knowing what is where. You can hit the enemy with overwhelming force, if you actually know where they are at. Striking out blindly, only gets your people killed.
ghostrider
05/23/19 12:42 AM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The issue with captured tech. How many in the IS actually knew how to work on and with that tech? Double sinks don't work with single sinks. The tech for weapons is more advanced, as it is more compact, and of a higher level then techs get trained with. Even the Star League tech wasn't as advanced. The Dragoons could have, or maybe should have, been training IS techs to use the stuff. But the story line even said that the techs could not work with it, and alot of the clan tech was useless after a while. No maintenance.

WWII, the U.S. liberated parts of China. Did we share out tech with them? France? England? Even South Korea in the Korean war? Even Iraq does not have out best tech available for them to use after we took out Hussien. The same is true with Germany as well. So as your examples of real world things is coming back to haunt you.

the Inner Sphere should have made a quantum leap with regards to technology - with medical, engineering, military at the forefront.
This statement has been used more then a few times. The IS should have learned how to make clan tech by the end of the 3000's. It hasn't. And the lie of the League tech being far superior to the 3025 era shows that. Nothing but artillery reaching out over 1 klick? Horrible chances of hitting anything even at under 400 meters?

Again. The demands of the people of the realms has not been answered during the succession wars. Worlds were left in enemy hands until they could gather up the forces to win them back. Some never did.

Katherine destroyed the chance for Victor to remove the Falcons from the LC area, with her civil war threat. Or did that concept not come up? The League did not have the forces to take out all the clans at once. Resting the troops before going again would have been the idea. More then a few things stopped it. So with that, why didn't Katherine send in the LA troops to do so? They had the backing of the massive regiments for the civil war. But she chose to destroy the FC. So writer logic fail?
Not executing Katherine when she lost the civil war is another fail.
ghostrider
05/23/19 12:52 AM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
- partisan attacks in the clans rear area – as their garrisons for the majority of their worlds could have been only a trinary;
- anti clan forces operating within the periphery to curtail any shipments of supplies (wolf packs used by Germany and America in WW2);
Ok. Where do the partisans get the equipment from to do any of this? Renegade jumpships? When did they have time to organize this? When the clans were pushing in further?
What intel was there available to any of the IS at this time?
The FC/DC were trying to avoid having their jumpships taken, and didn't have time to worry about some periphery worlds. As the clans got further in, they had more resources available.
Besides the outdated Dragoon information, how do you know the clans rules of warfare? The fact the IS was happy to destroy anything that resisted them during alot of the succession wars, including jumpships in rebellions, the IS had no real idea the clans would not do so.
Then again, the clans would capture them.

To think the IS can live next to a Mongol Empire (The Clans) is completely ludicrous – they will always attack you you can never have peace until they are no longer on your border!!!!!!!
So China, and those countries that did live next to the Mongol empire didn't survive and finally prosper?
And let's not forget that the IS states thought of each other as the Mongol empire. Hence the succession wars. Then the periphery was considered that, with the Rim Worlds becoming one, as Amaris destroyed the first League. So the titles can be used an anything or anyone.

And a full rewrite would destroy any chance of your alt becoming a reality. Most of the events that would lead up to it, would never have come about. Well, maybe they might be the main ways of fighting the wars if the League never fell. You would have to use spec ops to take out defenses around a world, in order to hit. Then again, why would you need the large states, when you could have small coallitions holding off fleets of warships?
Karagin
05/23/19 12:59 AM
72.176.171.47

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
The issue with captured tech. How many in the IS actually knew how to work on and with that tech? Double sinks don't work with single sinks. The tech for weapons is more advanced, as it is more compact, and of a higher level then techs get trained with. Even the Star League tech wasn't as advanced. The Dragoons could have, or maybe should have, been training IS techs to use the stuff. But the story line even said that the techs could not work with it, and alot of the clan tech was useless after a while. No maintenance.



Hate to add to fire, oh wait no I don't, but it was stated CLEARLY in the original 3050 TRO that the Inner Sphere COULD make Clan level tech weapons and materials but the cost was way to high for them to even try it on any large scale setting. Lazy writing? Maybe. Bad plot? Possible. Thing is they could have done and we should have seen a few units with the stuff even it was limited to elite units.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
05/23/19 01:47 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Making a comparison between that of Germany and the CC is totally erroneous.

Apples and Oranges - Were the Germans placed in charge of the United Nations Military and then used that same military to invade Poland?
Germany is an independent country with its own military.
The SLDF is a multi-national military organisation
If the CC uses its own military to invade St Ives this is one thing but the use of the SLDF to do it is another issue. The lawyers prior to the establishment of the Star League would have ensured that no First Lord could use the new SLDF for their own ends and get away with it – impeachment at the minimum!
And as for the issue of the CC or the DC being the target of the 3039 war we have been through this completely.

The use of DC nukes and Kamikaze fighters post Turtle Bay should have been included in the story – yes I want to keep them out of my universe and I am being hypocritical here, I will admit that but the issue stands if the Jaguars use a warship for orbital bombardment then you will receive a Kamikaze attack with nuclear weapons from then on until there are no Clan warships / or until nuclear missiles for aerospace fighters can be produced in mass quantities. When the canon story did not include this it shows that the game developers do not understand Japanese Culture / they did not consider reading about Gen. Tojo (WW2), if they had done so there would have been a different response than that of none at all.

As for using warships to stop the clans supply routes this is also not required – Mass aerospace fighter wings and rearmed Dropships to include naval weapons and capitol missiles would have been introduced as a stop gap measure to curtail the Clan’s re-supply. That is until the introduction of the Carrier warship, then we will have a mother loving Navy War on our hands – until then it is just fluff writing.

As for striking out blindly – wolf pack WW2 for both the Germans and the American fleets – may I suggest you start reading about both of these campaigns.

As for captured tech – initially little understanding – over time the Dragoons begin classes, then Battle Magic begins classes – then the Commando units for both the FC and the DC begin “liberating” Clan technicians – now as bondsmen they begin teaching.
Then after a period of time the Cats and the Bears join the Star League – teachers and teaching materials go through the roof.

Then there is the technology itself – in the beginning only a few are obtained for reverse engineering – over time this increases and if a re-clan supply fleet is captured it goes through the roof. And again when the Cats and the Bears switch sides all of the IS military industrial complexes would over time be re-tooled to that of Clan tech.

By 3075-80 the IS should have been on parity with that of the Clans with regards to technology.

And yet the canon story as is …. Can only be considered to be the game developers once again hobbling the game (as they did so with Huntress).

So the point is “?”, the developers completely wanted to be one sided with regards o technology which is a complete load of B.S.

Haunt me! Far from it ….
Errrrr …. America didn’t liberate China, China Liberated China, America only supplied some of the pilots and some of the material for the Chinese to win back their country!

This is the point America’s industrial power during WW2 is staggering – it could out produce everyone else! This is the point I am making if the IS can out produce the Clans while effectively destroying their forces in the field the loss depletion rate will ensure a win for the IS.

QUOTE:- “Again. The demands of the people of the realms has not been answered during the succession wars. Worlds were left in enemy hands until they could gather up the forces to win them back. Some never did”

This is the point I have been making with regards to why they need to re-conquer these worlds from the Clans – this is the point I made in regards to setting the Clan Occupation Zole Aflame with regards to the Special operations Executive (WW2 – reference) and the use of Partisan activities – a point that was completely left out of the Canon writing – and which shows how poorly written the Canon history is!.

No, Katherine did not destroy the chance for Victor to remove the Falcons from the LC area – post Wolf / Falcon war she could have very easily used her own forces – under the command of General Kell – and retaken that entire area – she could have made the entire Falcons within the IS into LA Bondsman – however what we got again was the developers’ hobbling the story for their own stupid history – if the LA had invaded at the end there is no way the Falcons could have survived.

The execution of Katherine is on par with Nuremberg Trials – they did not go far enough and that of the trials within Japan and what many at the time expected to occur the execution of the Japanese Emperor.

This is why she should have returned and retaken her thrown from Adam Steiner – the game would have gotten better with her return and yet what we got was just a complete and utter farce of a story line.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
05/23/19 02:09 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Arming Partisan Forces

First, each world would have its own “Home Guard” military – with hidden stockpiles to be used in the event the world has been captured;
Second, IS command raids would resupply them when they were on world;
Third, hey would steal it from the Clans.

There is enough jump-ships to organize a rear guard effort and to curtail the Clan advance – given the number of worlds they were advancing on the IS would have had enough for both – it still would not have been on the same size as the conflict during the Fourth Succession War.

As for the Clans going against Jump-ships the reverse is also true the IS should have gone against the Clans Jump-ships – refer to the invasion books regarding he numbers they had with them – if the IS introduced a policy of primary target Clan Jump-ships they would have been stranded on most of their worlds by the end of the Third / Fourth Wave due to a lack of transport – thus easy pickings for mass concentrated battles of attrition.

As for the Mongol Empire – how did Europe live next to them?????? As for China they were conquered by the Mongols and many of their Emperors were of Mongol descent, so the point is “?”.

As for a re-write – not me, not you, no-one knows how it wold be re-written but anything is better than the dire tribe that is forced upon us now – anything is possible.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/23/19 02:21 AM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
It looks like the issue of distances is still not being figured into the conversation. War in the seas of earth is not the same as space. Especially hundreds of light years.
The seas allowed ships to go out, fight, and return easily. You could pull into port about anywhere, or just anchor off the shores of a nation. Not something that is easily done when you have limited fuel, and alot of space to cover. And that is if the enemy doesn't have forces to destroy you on station.

The use of large aerospace fighters wasn't an option, since the IS didn't seem to have an abundance of pilots or fighters. Training them didn't come up. I agree that this is a major oversight.
Again. They actually had some numbers on how many pilots were trained in a few of the house books. From the sounds of it, they barely replaced losses to raids and such. As said in a prior thread, removing those fighters assinged to a world, meant leaving it open to attack. Something the houses could not do on a whim.
This is true for garrison forces, that may well be your best assault units.

The Germany comparison comes up as- the game’s developers completely misunderstood the rule of law in this case just so they could reform the CC – a point that could never have occurred in reality.
A point that could never happen. Dividing up a nation, and having it reform. This is the point here. It has happened in reality.

I agree the story line isn't the best. It works. Poorly at times, but I am not part of the writers.
Not sure if you are trying to work for them, or trying to do something they won't do. Reset the game.
Requiem
05/23/19 02:53 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
It looks like the issue of Jump-ships Jump distance is not being taken into account – as well as the issue of space exploration / trade within the IS is not being taken into account – just because they are exploring the Periphery for targets of opportunity does not change the risk factor.

What about the DC using hidden worlds to attack the FS during the canon war or 3039?

What about the Periphery Pirates – how do they get around the Periphery?

What about the fleet travelling to Huntress – was this any less risky that what I am proposing – as all I am suggesting is a fleet on a smaller scale hunting in a smaller area – you can’t have the Operation to Huntress and at the same time say an operation within the Periphery to hunt Clan re-supply forces, it just doesn’t make sense!

They also have Black Box communication

The hypothesis regarding large aerospace wings being a non-issue is also without merit.

Yes there are many schools within the IS that train fighter pilots – also with the introduction of conscription the ability of many academies to produce many fighter pilots within six to nine months is a reality, whereas with a Clan Sibko this cannot happen.

As for the number of fighters – when the war changes to a “Total War” scenario as per America WW2 the IS ability to produce fighters would increase exponentially – thus by a year or even two there will be enough fighters within the IS to have Big Wing Aerospace Squadrons – and when armed with nukes will inflict severe damage upon the Clans.

The only reason why the CC reformed “in reality” was due to the fear of being called a r___t – the fear of being non PC - in any sensible realistic scenario the CC would have fallen to the FC in the war of 3039/40.

What I want to do is to establish my own game – and also provide other gamers out here with my ideas so that they may (if they want to) incorporate my ideas into their games.

Who knows, in the future if the game is taken over by a white knight corporation they may read some of my posts and incorporate them into a new rewrite.

We can only live in hope of a new rewrite.

Quote / Unquote
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/23/19 09:35 PM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The tale of hidden worlds sounds to be a misstatement. Forgotten, lost or something like that, unless Comstar did the same thing to those worlds as they did the 5 around Terra. And if that is the case, they were known at least to Comstar, then given to the DC.

What about the fleet travelling to Huntress – was this any less risky that what I am proposing
Actually yes. They had their path laid out and had warships on their side to defend the fleet. The risk of running into a larger number of Jaguar warships, or any other clan was less then a fleet of unarmed jumpships, even with fighter escort, running into a single warship.
If they knew where some depots were, then they would risk it. But even a simple misjump could strand a lot of people, and the risk wasn't worth it to those in charge.
And before you answer, would you take on a suicide mission? Honestly.

As a side note to this, your suggestion the clanners would rather die, means suicide squads could be left at jump points with bombs to take out any jumpships that come into the system. Anything not clan, or not that clan, could very well have their engines/drives destroyed by such manor. Their honor would demand they actually fight for the honor of doing so. So there is where not all possibilities are covered.

Establishing your own game is fine, but to suggest the writers have no experience with combat, or even reading it, as well as saying the current story line could never happen is being an issue. Again. The alt has no voice in this thread. Did the IS win with the Comstar victory is the question. Telling the issues they should/shouldn't have had is enough. Saying your version is the only thing is beyond this.
Please keep things like this in the alt threads.

One more point about the clans reinforcements. They had plenty of people wash out of training. Some were washed out, as they failed their last trial. Other then not taking out a single mech in the trial of position, they are good warriors. And even the most stubborn of trueborns would rather have clan freeborns in mechs, then lose to the IS. So they had reinforcements.
No where does it suggest the clans could not mass produce units of war. They just didn't as it was a waste of resource if they were not needed.
Requiem
05/24/19 01:11 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Sorry but I completely disagree with the statement that the trip to huntress was not on the same risk level as that of hunting the Clans within the periphery.

A single jump-ship with a fighter escort – nuclear armed - provides a reduced electronic signature – thus they can act as a single attack submarine – whilst with a ‘Black Box HPG” they can call in reinforcements that same way the wolf packs operated during WW2.

As for stranding a ship – THEY HAVE A BLACK BOX HPG – so no “it is not a suicide mission!!!!!” the risk is worth the prize here not only can you restrict the Clans re-supply materials you can take these and ship them back into either the FC or the DC for their front line units to be used against them if you are able to capture them intact.

The chance of a miss-jump in the deep periphery = The chance of a miss-jump in the IS

Honestly – this is the most viable strategy the Inner Sphere has – A Total War scenario – conscription, increasing the military industrial complex output (as per America during WW2) – introduction en-mass of IS omni ‘Mechs / aerospace fighters / Vehicles and power armor, introduction of Big wing aerospace fighter groups with Nuclear weapons in space against all Clan Warships (Post Turtle Bay); Introduce a Piracy / Privateer / Corsair fleets into the Deep Periphery – introduce retrofitted drop-ships with Naval weapons as a stop gap before pocket warships and Carriers can be produced in en-mass for a Naval War; Commando operations within the Clan Occupation Zone – taking Clan non-warriors as bondsman / assassinations of warriors using sniper rifles (they can’t remain in their ‘Mechs / elemental armor all the time); Assigning the Primary Target as Clan Jump-ships; War of attrition – more VTOLS more very fast vehicles and with both armed with high damage weapons (such as a battalion unit with all AC20s using swarm attack upon a trinary (and below) and they are able to get in very close for the attack right off the bat) etc. …. etc. ……

Can I therefore ask respectfully – as it has been quite a long time since I first asked you this question -Ghostrider, as a General of a military unit what would be your strategy to defeating the Clans? As I have yet to read any reply to this question other than that of the failure offered by the Canon history.

Where did I suggest I would leave “The Judean Peoples Front Suicide Squad”, (who could commit suicide in under 20 seconds – refer to the book not the film), at a Jump point to attack Clan Vessels?

What I am suggested was sending in the DC Kamikaze units at definite Clan targets within the IS. That is until the introduction of a missile system that could deliver the warhead to the designated target.

So, please re-read and comprehend what I am saying – the current story arc is not ( in my opinion) believable, and I have given my reasons why I believe (in my opinion) it is not believable. I then offered (in my opinion) an alternative story line that I believe is a little more believable than that of the canon and the reasons why. Take it or leave it, it is up to the individual reading the post.

The cannon story is not infallible – there are many many issues that (in mine and others) make no sense whatsoever – the war of 3039 for one - attacking the DC and not the CC – the CC should have been removed from the board and assimilated into the FC – the charge of the game developers being r____t was the only way the CC survived. And then there is the issue of Technology being transferred to the IS post Huntress / Post Cats / Bears joining the Star League. And then there is the Falcon / Wolf fracas – why didn’t the LA attack at the end of this Fracas when both were severely damaged?, then the issue of the entire Jihad and the Dark Age. And then the issue of understanding how a monarchy works. And then the understanding of how a pressure wave within a building due to an explosion works etc. …. etc…..

How can I offer an accurate response that in my opinion is the answer to a question if I am not allowed to provide an alternative response other than that of the Canon history? To answer the question requires an alternate point of view – an alternate universe - to provide an accurate answer why I believe in the negative opinion.

As for allowing reinforcements from washed out warriors who failed in their trial of position – can I refer you back to the final battle on Huntress when these individuals offered their services as warriors and were subsequently told in no uncertain circumstances that their services would never be allowed upon the battlefield – they failed and as such were failures as warriors – as only warriors were allowed on the battlefield.

As for mass production of units – how can they (The Clans) do this when the only way you can train warriors is through a Sibko system? – to change to an academy mass production system of education (the same as the IS) is this not going against the law Nicholas Kerensky laid down for the Clans – How many Clans have gone against the laws that were laid down by their revered lord Kerensky?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (05/24/19 06:06 PM)
ghostrider
05/26/19 01:36 AM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Assumption of all ships or even the attack force having a black box? Where in any of the lore/novels and such did they say they had some, much less a network of them working in the periphery?

Again. Nuclear armed was not part of the canonverse. And in canon, it isn't that powerful. Other missiles do far more damage, without the radiation.
It seems you are confusing your alt with canon. This is not about trying to rewrite the history, but simply asking if Tukayyid was a victory.

A Total War scenario. This was tried in the first succession war. It failed. It was tried in the pentagon worlds during the rebellion that lead to alexanders rise. If failed. Nuked worlds do no good to anyone. This same sort of scenario played out in the Jihad. Yet that was bad, yet saying doing it to the clans is good? How?
Now change the clan invasion to them using all the clans and splitting up the IS amongst them. The creation of the League was a front to all clansman, as it was done by the corrupt IS leaders, in order to gain legitemicy to try and persuade the clans to stop and join. Now what?


As I have yet to read any reply to this question other than that of the failure offered by the Canon history. Without a major source of information on what is available, such as production potentials, trained warriors, as well as intel and such, there is really no way you could honestly answer this. And is this before or after Comstar finally stopped helping the clans?
Closest I can think of without this information, the Russian defense in world war II seems to be the most viable, without a mass change in how things are done, as well as old rivalries dropped. Bleed them as they push inward, then hit with a large force. Not a great strategy, especially without warships, and such, but until you get things going, you need to buy time to gather these things.
ghostrider
05/26/19 01:52 AM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Where did I suggest I would leave “The Judean Peoples Front Suicide Squad”, (who could commit suicide in under 20 seconds – refer to the book not the film), at a Jump point to attack Clan Vessels?
This was suggesting the clans would start using lone soldiers to take out IS ships, not the other way around. If they were so fanatical about killing the IS forces, this would immortalize their names. Not something I really recommend, but this would be following their honor road, and losing to the IS. (IE your DC example)

Again. The long game suggest leaving the weak to buffer other nations and hitting the strongest, most hated enemy. Why hit switzerland when you need to take out Russian and France?
I said it before. The FC should have taken Capella in the fourth war, and removed the CC from being anything more then a periphery player at that point.

The LA's lack of attacks stems from Katherine's attempt to take the FC by force, and losing. Then having to worry about the other houses, including the FS, from taking things from them, while they shift and attack. No matter what people think, the LA is not able to defend all their borders, and hit the falcons. The league could have changed that, but most were not willing to allow Katherine to destroy the IS in her plans to rule it all forever.

You do have a few threads dealing with the Alt. Bringing that here means others can not really talk about much without having the alt rammed down their throats.

As for allowing reinforcements from washed out warriors who failed in their trial of position – can I refer you back to the final battle on Huntress when these individuals offered their services as warriors and were subsequently told in no uncertain circumstances that their services would never be allowed upon the battlefield – they failed and as such were failures as warriors – as only warriors were allowed on the battlefield.
Was that all clans including Wolf? Or having the IS coming in for all the clans, not just the most obnoxious one? The Jaguars got what they wanted, and lost. The Jaguars thought they could handle it, and found out they couldn't. Stupid? Certainly.

As for mass production of units – how can they (The Clans) do this when the only way you can train warriors is through a Sibko system? – to change to an academy mass production system of education (the same as the IS) is this not going against the law Nicholas Kerensky laid down for the Clans – How many Clans have gone against the laws that were laid down by their revered lord Kerensky?
This needs to be referred to the scientist caste making their own warriors. Battle experience was the only thing that most lacked, and even then, they were well trained.
Each clan picked what the laws of Kerensky was, and put forth their own visions of that. Some clans didn't allow freeborns into the military. I don't remember Kerensky saying that was a law. And when did Kerensky say orbital bombardments were ok?
Also, you can still train in Sibkos, but lessen the requirements to graduate. Destroying units to do so is wasteful. Doesn't matter what they say is the reason.
Requiem
05/26/19 07:24 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Where is it shown that any of the Clans have a cultural propensity towards suicide, as that of the Samurai? Sorry but I do not have the same belief that a clan warrior would commit suicide in the hope their name will “liver forever – the way I read their warrior psychology is in proving they are the best of the best and this can only be achieved if you win (and live) battling in the most dire of circumstances – thus once you have proven you are the best of the best your DNA will be used to produce the next generation of warriors – so, how can you prove you worth in combat and have your DNA progress for future generations if you commit suicide rather than battling on to prove your worth to your Clan?

As I have argued before … again and again …. My argument is that by Removing the CC and then absorbing their entire military industrial complex into the FC will allow the FC to establish many new RCTs – as at 3039 the FC does not have enough to win in a protracted war against the DC. However, with a new resurgence in military industrial complexes throughout the FC by 3050 they will have enough forces to finally defeat the DC (as they can now finally out produce) – ie. their projected loss depletion rate can be offset against what is being produced – however for the DC they will be unable to replace the forces they loose on the battlefield, thus over time the DCMS size will reduce to point that they are unable to hold their positions – they will have to reduce the size of the DC or face total annihilation.
Then there is the amount of prestige - and the number of military industrial complexes won within the CC in comparison to the number that could be won in attacking the DC - there is no doubt that in attacking the CC rather than the DC the FC will end up with more civilian and military industrial complexes than if they attacked the DC - thus it will provide the FC with more prestige, money and eventually more RCTs - with more you can do more - to attack the DC has no merit, there is no value in the shot term when you compare it to the acquisition of the CC.

As for Katherine worrying about other states attacking her, sorry but I do not believe this …. at this stage a strong leader would want to show her strength … thus she would have attacked the Falcons (at a minimum). This again shows (in my opinion) the game developers hobbling the IS in favor for the Clans – this again is on the same level as FS not attacking the CC in the war of 3039!

If all I am allowed to talk about is the Canon history, is this not forced censorship – what happened to freedom of speech?
How can I not suggest what I believe was, in my opinion, wrong with the Canon story and where I believe the game should have gone. As for me ramming it down - sorry but no, I don't believe I am.

As for refusing failed warriors yes I agree it was just the Jaguars. However can you show any evidence any of the other clans will allow a failed warrior – who is now a Tech for example – back into their warrior units? Once you are out, you are out forever is the way I read the Clans rules. – The only exception is when the Falcons allowed a do-over for Aiden Pride – however he was forced to become a free birth for a while. But no one as far as I have read has allowed a Tech to become a warrior.

How can the Clans – not a renegade unit such as the Scientific Caste – engage in Mass production of graduates? What would happen if one Clan introduced a Academy graduate program rather than a Sibko graduate system – all of their competitors would immediately see them as week and attack them – so why change the system that put you, and keeps you in power – it is akin to kicking the stool out from under yourself whilst standing on it! So no politician would attempt to do it …. so would any clan warrior politico do so without considering all of the implications of doing so ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/27/19 09:01 PM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The fact that they tend to go into combat, with the idea of not leaving until all the enemy is dead, even when they are losing tends to suggest suicidal thoughts. Make a name for yourself, and you will be part of the breeding program. Being alive for some isn't as important as that.

If all I am allowed to talk about is the Canon history, is this not forced censorship
This is why the other threads are here. The topic of this thread is not come up with alternative ways the developers should have gone. A simple, they screwed up, and not saying your way is the only way it should have gone, or be rewritten.

However can you show any evidence any of the other clans will allow a failed warrior – who is now a Tech for example – back into their warrior units?
Bondsmen. They serve as techs and such. So in the clan they now serve, they were never a warrior and worse, trained as one by an inferior clan. Otherwise, they would not be a bondsman.
And Freeborns are allowed to serve in other clans. Most don't really train them to be warriors, but it does happen.

It does not have to be an academy, but more of training units.
But as said before, lightening up on requirements would go a long way. Yes, others would start suggesting you are weak, but when you take them out, you order them to shut up as your bondsman. Again, the freeborns in the Wolves comes as a good example. Why do you need that many warriors? Even with them being mainly PGC? Even the Jade Falcons had training done with Freeborns. So it isn't unique.
Requiem
05/28/19 12:02 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Suicidal thoughts within battle, is that of the Kamikaze pilot / the Samurai’s cultural belief in that, in death honour can be regained – this psychology is not your Clan MechWarrior, they are “zealots” in their “Killer belief” - they will win! – when verbalising their strategies they say “I will …” not “I can’t, so I will just kill myself …..”. Thus I assert that there is a vast difference, psychologically, between the two and as such a Clan Warrior could never contemplate suicide as a Samurai would. Their Warrior culture does not permit it, that is unless it is for the safety of the Clan – such as when the Bears discovered Wolverine DNA within their warriors – and as such all these half caste wolverine children killed themselves rather than live with shame of being half Wolverine. I just cannot see a fully blooded Clan warrior committing suicide on the battlefield, it is just not within their nature.

What we are discussing also is if someone from a lower caste can gain the right to become a warrior. I contend that it is impossible, the Clan’s society is so stratified that once you have been assigned into a non-warrior caste you can never become a warrior in the future.
And once you have been taken as a bondsman (despite that you were once a warrior) and are now a tech you can never be allowed to become a warrior again – you have become disgraced in the eyes of all “true” warriors – you were never worthy of being a warrior?
As for free-birth warriors they have been trained within a Siko the same as a True-born, and also from a young age, they are attempting to gain entry into the warrior caste before being assigned to another caste – If they have been assigned as a labourer and then they decide to try out for warrior this cannot occur – once a non-warrior always a non-warrior.

As for the “Bondsman” they would need to somehow steel a ‘Mech and go bandit, this is the only way I can see them re-entering a pilot seat again … and then in their eyes they may consider themselves as a warrior.

Can anyone see any Clan “Lightening up on the requirements” to become a warrior?

One of the great issues with the canon story is that it never looked at the issue of Sibko numbers and that of Attrition / Total Warfare within the IS. If it had done so correcly the story line must have demonstrated that the loss of plots was becoming a concern to the Clans and that the need of amalgamating many units to keep them within unit parameters was required.
Unfortunately what we got was a complete and utter disregarding of the issue relating to Sibko numbers being graduated to the number of pilots being killed in the IS – an assumption that there was an infinite number of clan personnel who could replace the fallen warriors somehow crept into the story.
However within the IS this was always taken into account - which shows the disparity / hobbling of the game (once more) to allow the Clans continued victories over the IS …. of which is a complete and utter travesty.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/28/19 11:40 PM
66.74.60.165

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Can anyone see any Clan “Lightening up on the requirements” to become a warrior?
The Jade Falcons did so, when they put the scientists warriors into their military. More then a few clans started making freeborn units as well, to bolster their forces.
And any bondsman from the IS would be considered a non warrior, as they were not trained or did their trial of position in the clans. Spirit verses the wording of the law.

Suicide units do exist in the clans. Most Solamha are such units. They want to die a glorious death. Some are ex khans, so it isn't like it is just the lower ranks. Taking out an invading force, that is there to destroy things, not just do a trial of possession would be considered as such. So the IS coming in to attack your clan, means you are more likely to use such tactics. The invaders will not treat your people with respect. They are there to destroy your way of life.
And not all warriors would agree to doing any of this. Incentives, like a poor warrior having their genes added to the pool may well do this as there is no other way their legacy would continue.

The numbers of warriors was kept to a small amount as only the best of the best were supposed to be a warrior. The clans were not prepared for the resistance. The knew the IS had the numbers, but not the skills or the will power to fight when all was lost. They were used to the ritual fighting, and thought their might would cause the IS forces to run from a real warrior. Weak plot? Probably. Hobbling the clans? Probably. And this goes for the limited clans that invaded.

But consider the alt you are building. Starting in the league era, you completely remove this from ever happening.
Other then selling more books, a better story would be nice, but not likely.
Had they looked into the future, the original Star League and their units would be far better, and show up in the caches long before 2750 was even thought of.
Wick
05/29/19 12:29 AM
45.43.104.179

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Getting back on topic....

The "victory" is what was needed for ComStar and Terra, not for the greater Inner Sphere. The actual terms were that the Clans would not attack any world closer to Terra than Tukayyid (including Tukayyid itself.) This should have sorely pissed off the FedCom and Combine - as they're now the targets for the next 15 years as the Falcons/Vipers on one side and Jaguars/Cats on the other expand "sideways". FASA and the novelists sorely dropped the ball by not observing this condition. Sure, the Falcons raided Coventry once or twice and fooled around in the ARDC a bit, but each Clan ultimately stayed entirely in the occupation zones, though there was no reason for them to do so. I guess it could be partially explained by the Vipers and Falcons fighting amongst themselves, and the Refusal War going on, but you've got the Jags and Cats just sort of sitting there, a single jump away from Luthien and the only thing stopping them are infrequent DCMS raids out of Wolcott and a few skirmishes between each other and the Bears? Very lousy writing after Tukayyid, complicated by the way-too-soon Operating Bulldog. (I agree with earlier posts this should have been saved until near the end of the truce when the IS powers were better replenished and really could take on as many Clans as needed.) FASA and the novelists got impatient, and wrote up too much story covering too little time. Its like the Clans are two entirely different groups pre-Tukayyid and post. Unstoppable and ruthless before, weak and deserving punishment after. Bleh.

This map [ http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/e/e1/LC-3145.png ] is all you need to know about how the Clans should have operated. Falcons expand much further into Lyran space. And all Clans move closer to Terra after the 15 year truce elapsed. They pretty much go wherever they please, as evidenced by Clan Wolf's radical move to the Lyran/Free Worlds border.
Requiem
05/29/19 01:34 AM
1.158.130.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
When Clan Jade Falcon’s scientists placed “their” warriors within the Falcon Touman, did the Khan and the Sa-Khan know what they were up to?

As for free-born units – what percentage of the Touman was / is free-born and how did it change over the years? Also how many Clans reversed their decision as to the issue of having a free-born within their units as time progressed?

As for bondsman from the IS not being warriors – there were instances where they were considered warriors – Phelan Kell and Ciro Ramirez, one of the Somerset Strikers (From the TV Cartoon Series). Thus I can only assume that there is a precedent for IS warriors becoming a Clan Warrior.

As for the idea of a Solhama unit – the old and the disgraced – becoming a suicide squad can you please provide Book and page number as I cannot remember reading any such action on their part as a suicide unit.

Sorry but I disagree with your assertion in that an invasion equates to suicide tactics. A clansman fights for honour in battle not death in battle.

As for small numbers, here I thought it was to limit the damage and to ensure valour in battle – when a small number is able to achieve what was believed only a large number could this would bring valour to those who were assigned and commanded the unit in question.

Yes, the Clans were not prepared for resistance – they were never prepared for total war and that of a war of attrition – the writing within the Clan invasion literature clearly demonstrates that this was not even considered, if it had I believe the story should have been vastly different than that of the canon history.

However, I find the idea that that the IS did not have the skills or the will power to fight when all was lost completely without merit. Upon reading the Clans invasion book I find I am reading the same tactics from one world to the next with no change whatsoever – I can only assume that the game’s developers wanted the Clans to become part of the IS as fast as possible and with little to no reality in making it so – so, what we got, and again in my opinion, was a banal (lacking in all originality) and prosaic façade of a story. It was too rushed to be implemented – if only a modicum of forethought had gone into the story it could have become a story of note.

It was, again in my opinion, a story that completely hobbled the IS forces in favour of the Clans and failed to take into account many times the issue of vehicles when combating Clan Mechs and Elementals, as well as understanding the cultural differences between the Clans and the IS and how ordinary IS people would react when they are told to conform to this alien way of life.

As for completely removing the Clans from the future – no I still have a way of ensuring their existence. Rather than an exodus of SLDF personnel I will have an exodus of Amaris personnel – thus the idea of the Clans acting all like Clan Jaguar will make a little more sense i.e. keep the Crusaders and loose the Wardens when it comes time for the invasion. What I am looking at is an il-Khan who is more like Timur (Tamerlane the Great) when it came to the invasion of the Inner Sphere.

As for a better story – yes it would sell more books – but would it not also generate more word of mouth publicity, that could then mean more people engaged in the game, thus a ground-swell by the people asking their local stores to stock the games products due to its increased popularity etc.

This, I believe is the only way to save the game – go back and re-write / re-rule for a more modern and discerning customer. Game of Thrones has completely spoiled the view of war for the throne – it is time to adapt or perish accordingly.

As for the original SLDF – they need their own Hegemony realm to preserve – thus the game has one more major house (Terran Hegemony) and one more periphery house that is on the verge of becoming a major house (Rim Worlds).

Starting the game with only five major houses was, In my opinion, too small a number – starting with six to seven would allow for a more dynamic situation from whence to start.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
Extra information
2 registered and 39 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 12852


Contact Admins Sarna.net