A question regarding Clan Psychology?

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Requiem
05/25/19 04:29 AM
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One can never discount the use of PsyOps (Using Psychology as a weapon) upon the wider battlefield, thus with the introduction of the Clans and when a clear understanding of their psychology becomes apparent – let us assume the following ….

Let us assume you have become part of the technical caste due to either failing a test within your final Sibko training period or even during you trial of position.

Then during the Clans invasion you became a bondsman to the Inner Sphere.

If you were offered the position of fighting in a ‘Mech / fighter or remaining as a Tech what would you do?

Also ……

If as a technician you found out, through partisan propaganda, that the Inner Sphere were offering failed warriors (now in other castes) the opportunity to regain their warrior position if they defected to the the Inner Sphere.

So would you defect to the Inner Sphere and be allowed to plot a weapon again or would you remain as (for example) a mere technician for the remaining life?


Edited by Requiem (05/25/19 04:45 AM)
Requiem
05/25/19 07:18 PM
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Uncle Chandy Chandrasekhar Kurita) – Whilst hosting Camacho’s Caballeros upon Lutheran he was also hosting Clan individuals ….

So, where did this Story Arc disappear to?

What were to assume Uncle Chandy was really up to when using an inducement strategy (utilizing his own PsyOps strategy) upon what we can only assume were key Clan individuals within which caste – those involved in commerce?

So, was the IS (specifically the DC) once more hobbled with regards to Clan technology?
Requiem
05/25/19 07:29 PM
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The is also the PsyOps issue of what happens when an individual from a Clan non-warrior caste – who has lived within what can only be described as a repressed society – is introduced to an IS open and more liberal society where individuals have access to a wide variety of leisure and pleasure diversions.

Could a ‘clansman’ become seduced with the IS over that of the Clan’s way of life, so much so they abandon or even actively betray their Clan?
Requiem
05/25/19 07:48 PM
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It is also assumed that Clan individuals within the non-warrior castes (and for some within the warrior caste) there is a thriving Black Market.

What happens upon the Clans Home-worlds when the military PsyOps decide to ensure the Merchant Caste of several Clans are provided with copies of audio / visual “entertainment” programs – that can be returned to clan space for mass consumption.

When the idea of Magan Carta became known to the common man and woman it produced Tylor Watt’s peasant revolt.

Ideas can change whole societies – Magna Carta – Within England (Runnymede and the Peasant’s Revolt etc.) and the American War of Independence that lead to their Civil War / French Revolution / Russian Revolution / China’s Revolution etc.

Should there have been a mass uprising of all the non-warrior castes and not just the scientific caste within Clan space?

Could either the FC or the DC manufactured an idea that when disseminated throughout Can Space could have produced the level of desire for change that leads to the people demanding a revolution against their rulers who are acting as their ‘King Johns and Barons’ within the warrior caste?
ghostrider
05/26/19 02:08 AM
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Each person in the clans will react differently. Some failed at the end, while others failed before they even got into warrior training. As a counter question, would you trust those warriors, not to run off with your equipment?

The Chandy arc was not followed closely, but it would seem the corruption of the Clans is part of that ploy. Showing the people other things besides things required to live, would cause even the leaders to want something like a soft bed, instead of the things offered in a dropship. Weight savings would require the least amount of waste, such as super comfy beds, or overstuffed seats.
The Diamond Sharks profiting from brining that stuff in is another way to pervert the clans ways.

Again. It depends on the person being seduced. Some would resist, while others would go over and become something akin to a crimelord, or even merc. Being a merc may well be better then not being a warrior what so ever. So betrayal is very possible as you break the indoctrination of only warriors are the clan picked warriors.

The bandit caste does prove there is a black market in the clans. Otherwise, how to you get parts for the bandit castes units? Raid depots? And some of the warriors get items which aren't allowed by them, such as some alcohol, and even stopping off to get some fresh food on a patrol route.

Now there is something that needs to be addressed again. Isolation causes things like people thinking they are oppressed kind of obsolete. If you know of no other way of doing things, you tend to resolve yourself to your fate. And if the task master keeps you on a short leash, you are less likely to even try to find out.
Requiem
05/26/19 02:53 AM
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First, All military, prior to formal enlistment, do they not put all of their candidates through a battery of psychological tests to ensure they are psychological stable before they start training and especially before they are provided with any weapon?

Thus if they pass a psychological test – yes they may be suitable candidate for a light ‘Mech – and as they prove their worth over time their access to more advanced, and heavier weapons could also be considered.

So we can say betrayal by the Clans Warrior and Non Warrior Caste – especially with free-births – is a real possibility.

The question is then how many will defect?

Individual defections or in groups or even mass defections can be considered a possibility depending upon their Clan of origin and how they have been treated in that Clan. In a highly repressive clan I would assume mass defections where as in a more liberal Clan the defections would be more on the basis of individuals.

Does this seem to be correct?

As for black market materials – the question was not answered – can an idea, an exceptionally well presented idea at that, start a rebellion between the Warriors and ALL of the Non-Warrior Castes?

QUOTE: And if the task master keeps you on a short leash, you are less likely to even try to find out.

How did that work out for Spartacus, those involved in the Peasant’s Revolt, those aboard the ship La Amistad, and those transported to America against their will? Etc.
ghostrider
05/27/19 08:39 PM
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Comparing revolts where you have some where to go, and other countries/cities that can help is a far different situation than having 30 light years of space, and no way of even getting there. This also doesn't include the fact that those 30 light years from you, are not worse then your current situation.
The Dark Caste does come to mind, but if they were that well off, then they would have their own population base. Which it sounds like they don't.

First, All military, prior to formal enlistment, do they not put all of their candidates through a battery of psychological tests to ensure they are psychological stable before they start training and especially before they are provided with any weapon?
They may, but someone unstable does not rule out them being trained. For some, the psychotic people are the best to have in some areas. A peaceful government would not use them at home, but dropping them behind enemy lines and letting them go may well tie up your enemies reserves and maybe even pull forces off the front line.
Rebellions don't have the option often, to turn away people joining. As long as they are loyal to the commanders of the rebellion, they tend to be over looked on what they do. As long as it isn't their people being hurt.

can an idea, an exceptionally well presented idea at that, start a rebellion between the Warriors and ALL of the Non-Warrior Castes?
For the isolated clan population, it is unlikely. Without trusting others for help, such as getting weapons, which may not even be usable to the masses, to co-ordinating the movement, and such, it will never happen. And that type of trust isn't likely to happen in a single settlement, much less across the worlds. Again. This is unique in the aspect that there is NO where you can flee.
Requiem
05/27/19 10:41 PM
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I agree, starting a revolt within a clan or even all the clans is a very difficult proposition – that is unless there is some sort of underground resistance movement (consider the film Metropolis as an example). Then you need a martyr for the cause / something coming to ahead / extreme outrage, then you would also need the Freeborn warriors switching sides to the people.

If the dispute takes a very long time – Freeborn Warriors could be training the non-warrior castes personnel in secret, which could add a twist on the story.

However distance is not an issue when you consider that the people will have the merchants on their side – this includes their dropships and jump-ships – reducing the distance between the people, spreading the message, coordinating groups, and providing weapons throughout Clan Space – and they can also provide the people with a freedom route from one area to another (similar to that within South America to the North prior to the Civil War)

You would need to consider the end of many empires and dynasties in history to provide for an example of what is needed to create a great story arc.

The people also have access to the Clan’s Communication “Web” – and just like real world it can be used for good or ill.

Also from the beginning you must have mass sabotage and assassination – especially throughout he Clan’s Warship and military jump-ship fleet – however what if the the people were able to take a percentage of the warship fleet as their own? I know that this proposition would be highly unrealistic, but what if the unrealistic becomes the probable?

As for using ‘damaged’ individuals upon the battlefield – highly risky but I can see where it could be considered and used.

So for a rebellion to be considered probable there must be “heat and pressure” (frustration) - and some manifesto that gains relevance among the people – then the masses need to be convinced that a revolution is needed – and of extreme importance there then needs to be a trigger event, something that outrages the people and sparks a violent revolution. But there also needs to be a sense of hope in the people, in that they will win and will have a better life at the end of it all.

Coming up with this would be very difficult – but examples may be due to their working conditions becomes so bad that mass casualties upon the production line eventuate, Popular civil leaders are rounded up and killed followed by a crackdown by the military upon the people – ruthlessly suppressing the people’s rights for self-determination etc. (Consider the Welsh Coal mine strikes or the Russian Revolution as an example in history).

Thus at the end the life of the people needs to be transformed and they need to re-define themselves.
Requiem
07/08/19 10:48 PM
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First, Question: What would happen if the Clans conquered a planet that was unable to feed itself completely – by cutting the planets supply of food from other planets in the IS. Would they let the planet starve or would they initiate a new source of food from other nearby planets they have captured as well as the transports required to ensure a constant supply of food?

Would they – Let them starve; ensure a new source of food and initiate transport relief; retreat from the world to allow the IS to care for it?

Second, Question: What would happen if the Clans resupply lines were cut with regards to food – would they loot planets of food to resupply their own invasion fleet?

Third, Question: How would the local population of a world respond to the two above scenarios?

Fourth, Question: What would happen if the IS media became aware of the situation and hence place pressure upon the local lord to alleviate the situation?
Requiem
07/10/19 07:02 PM
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As no one else wishes to answer,

None of the Clans Khans will allow any deviation from the prosecution of the War.

The concerns of the labour caste are not the concerns of warrior caste.

Any captured Jumpship would be put into service for that of the warriors – thus there will never be any relief from another captured Clan held world.

The warrior must not show empathy or weakness for that of the lower castes.

When rioting, looting and the murder rate increases due to famine the Clan Garrison will do one of two options.
First, put it down with extreme force – and in so doing killing a large percentage of the population;
Second, as long as the rioting does not endanger the security of their Garrison – do nothing as they will let the IS barbarians kill themselves – as the strongest will always find a way to survive;

In the event a Clan force requires resupply of food – they will not even bother asking permission from their Khan – they will just take it as it not the right of the Warrior to take whatever they want from that of the labourer / merchant / scientist caste.

In the event an IS relief force was dispatched to bring relief to the world in famine the IS force would have to issue a challenge for the world – only a successful battle(s) in favour of the IS military unit would bring relief.

Long term, the warriors would view this as an exercise in demonstrating their absolute in right to rulership. However, like the Irish the people from the time of the potato famine, they will never forget and they will never forgive – they will always fight their new overlords until the day they are finally liberated.

The Clans propensity for brutality will become known throughout the Inner Sphere – Partisan forces all captured worlds will be on the rise.


Edited by Requiem (07/10/19 07:05 PM)
Requiem
07/11/19 02:09 PM
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I was reading Sarna Wiki regarding the Clan Wolf in Exile when I came across the description for the story regarding Arc-Royal’s fall to the Falcons.

In this Canon story it informs that Falcon Elementals were given an assignment to murder all the sibko children they could find, irrespective of age.

Five entire sibkos were murdered (thus there could be well over 500 children murdered)

Can I ask, since when has school children become a legitimate target within the game?

With all due respect - Whom-ever thought this up and agreed to include it in the canon story seriously needs to consider entering into psychological therapy!


Edited by Requiem (07/11/19 02:10 PM)
ghostrider
07/11/19 05:25 PM
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There may be a deeper issue with the Falcon orders.
Did they have intel on who is a sibko child and who was just around when they opened fire?
I would suspect the Trueborn crusader elementals just killed any child they found.
But then I don't think they would admit that, as the sibko could be written off as head hunting against future leaders. I don't buy that concept. But then this is coming from those that gave us the Jihad.

But then, it would be better to kill them quickly, then starve them out. Living in the horrible conditions in some areas might be considered even worse. It depends on point of view.

But a counter question to since when has school children become a legitimate target within the game?
Wouldn't the invasion be considered to do this?
In the end, the trueborn crusaders, would probably move to sterilize, or eliminate as many IS children as they could, along with their parents and such.
Destroying hospitals and school during a normal invasion would fall under this. Granted, this is specifically looking for, and hunting them down, so might get the most evil label.
Requiem
07/11/19 10:43 PM
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Quote: Wouldn't the invasion be considered to do this? In the end, the trueborn crusaders, would probably move to sterilize, or eliminate as many IS children as they could, along with their parents and such. Destroying hospitals and school during a normal invasion would fall under this. Granted, this is specifically looking for, and hunting them down, so might get the most evil label.

If the Jade Falcons have come to use these tactics through the use of the 'Mongol Tactics' there is but one comparison to be made – WW2 Operation Barbarossa’s Einsatzgruppen – “The Special Action Group” of the SS.

If this is so then the game developers have gone way too far over the line to ever receive forgiveness.

Who do the game developers consider to be the Target Market of the Battletech Universe?

If this is so they have completely lost their direction – time to find a new licensee holder!


Edited by Requiem (07/11/19 10:45 PM)
ghostrider
07/12/19 12:44 AM
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I don't know if they are doing so or not.
But this is the very definition of total warfare. Or maybe the first succession war. You target soft targets, in order to split up the military to cover everything.
This is one of the reasons I was trying to warn against the total war guerilla aspect of fighting the clans.

'Mongol Tactics'
Interesting the way the mongol thinking is not as honorable as put forth. I said it before. They were out to destroy anything that wasn't them. Those that dealt with them, were basically left, so the horde could move on to bigger targets, and have a steady supply of things that the 'lowly' workers do.

And don't try to fool yourself. The WWII operation isn't the only one that did this. The concept of racial purity comes to mind. And that is as far as I will take this part of the conversation.

Back to the freedom fighter/guerilla tactics issue. Most of the time, innocent people get hurt from trying to strike at the enemy from the shadows. Those that get attacked tend to take it out on even more innocent people. Much like the clans did during the occupation of worlds in the initial invasion. So this isn't something new. They have the mind set that the warriors make the laws and you follow it. The IS, even the DC people, weren't as strict, though that did depend on WHO was in charge at the time.

This is how psy ops work when left unchecked.. You hurt the enemy in anyway you can, and hope they actually care about your target. Otherwise, they will not respond the way you want them to. I believe this is why the developers stayed away from creating rules to even contemplate this. This also goes along with starving the populations.. So I would suggest steering clear of that thought.
csadn
07/12/19 04:09 AM
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I can't remember who said it, but: A high-ranking US official during the Cold War was asked " If you could put one book into the hands of every person behind the Iron Curtain, what book would it be?"

The expected answer was "the Bible".

The official's answer: "The Sears Catalog -- when the people under Communism see what they're missing, they'll revolt."

So it was spoken -- so did it come to pass.

Yet another in a long list of "reasons the Clans are about as convincing as Dr. Crippen's defense attorney" -- show the lower castes what they're missing out on (eliding what border worlds are like...), and the Clans fall apart inside a decade.
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
ghostrider
07/12/19 08:51 AM
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Actually, I can see that happening with the higher castes as well.
Why settle for the hard, bottom of the line cockpit chairs when you can have the extra cool padding with cup holder?
What scientist wouldn't want the extra comfortable shoes? Or the silk lab coat?
I know waste is abhorred, but really.

The Bible response is wrong, because at least Russia does have religion like most other countries.
They will have to change that soon though. Not sure how much longer Sears will be in business.
ghostrider
07/15/19 05:26 PM
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The question of weither the clans would let them starve depends on the clan leaders to begin with.
But a point that needs to be made to avoid some of the issues.
Most of the clans that invaded, refused to each IS foods, and had their shipped in from the home worlds.
This means any sort of attack on clan ships coming in, would result in execution of those trying to attack the ship. Other supplies are coming in as well as the food for the clan warriors.
So it is unlikely they are supplying the dropships to bring in food to the populace of worlds that don't have or make enough for the populace.

I want to say Comstar was supplying alot of those worlds. Something about increasing control over the populace, as they would have to attend comstar presented lectures. This would case more people to want to become a Comstar employee, as they have food and not have an overlord beating on the door every time something goes wrong.
Requiem
07/15/19 07:45 PM
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The Clans will only use their own supplies when it comes to rations?

Another good reason to cut their supply within the Deep Periphery

Depending on ComStar
Yes I could see them assisting with relief.
However, how would the House Lords react to this?

Though the question remains how will the Clans keep the peace once the rioting starts? And start it will …. Would ComStar have the resources available …. Would the House Lords allow ComStar into a combat zone?

Would the House Lords demand their spies be included with ComStar Personnel on relief missions?
ghostrider
07/15/19 08:36 PM
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Comstar did alot to pacify planets the clans took. In fact, the bears and wolves had them take over running a few worlds to avoid having to worry about integration into the clans.

How the lords would react?
To starving the populations? That is a question that isn't a simple answer.
Do you risk your jumpships trying to get food and supplies to them? Dropships? Will the clans just blow the stuff out of the sky or seize them?
Will the clans risk you bringing in things and trusting you aren't setting up guerillas?
They may well be relieved Comstar was doing so, but then they didn't know the whole story. Had they known, I doubt operation Scorpion would have been able to even start. No one would have trusted comstar, if it wasn't for them working to keep civilian deaths down.
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