Requiem
07/26/19 09:21 AM
1.158.206.105
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Should the rules need changing in the following areas …
New ships are needed to be established – where a ship's Jump distance is not a universal constant it is determined by its size – (yet to be determined by tonnage)
Different Classes
Scout – four times the normal distance
Small – twice normal
Medium - normal Jump distance
Heavy – Half Normal
Super Heavy – Quarter normal
Does the game also needs the introduction of … Colony ships (from the time when people were initially colonizing space) – something similar to a massive space station with dozens of Drop ships - Remember the Colonies on Gundam, something like this, however they would also have a massive amount of Colony Drop/ships – very large drop ships specializing in a colonies initial requirements.
One Drop ship that is specialized in its construction for one specific task ....
- Living quarters
- Hospital Class – includes a complete toxicology / bacterial analysis of the planet prior to colonization.
- Engineering Class – Manufacturing
- Logistics Class – stores all the pre-fabricated buildings etc
- Power-plant Class – Nuclear Electric Reactor
- Horticulture or Agriculture / Aquaculture / Viticulture / Domesticated farm Animals etc - allows the animals to be transferred from the inside of the Colony ship to the ground once a suitable environment has been established
- Air / Soil / Water / sewerage purification plants etc
- Vehicles for all the different needs of the Colony
- Foundry - mining - converting raw ore into metal that is then sent to engineering to be made into whatever is needed
- Electronics - manufacture and servicing of the colonies electronics requirements.
- Water recovery and transport
- Etc.
Should these types of Drop ships still be in service and being made within the game world as it appears the game world is lacking in these types of Drop ships.
Then for Warships yes you can have extremely large Battleships and Aerospace fighter / bomber Carrier Ships (with reduced jump ranges) but corvettes and frigates would be smaller and with increased ranges - thus for raids you can get there quicker and for mass planetary assaults – it may take longer to get there but you can bring more to bear in an initial assault.
For commercial uses yes you can have very large Jump-ships that could carry way more drop ships - for the main trade lines -but at the expense of their range – thus takes longer to reach its destination
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/26/19 12:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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The need for different styles of dropships is basically the game master/players of the game. Construction rules are there, and alls you have to do is make a custom dropship. One such one is the Mule Mining ship for example.
There is no reason why you couldn't convert or build a colony ship out of a Mammoth dropship. Behemoth might be the first choice, but they can not land. So shuttling down the colonists would be needed.
The classes of ships, dropships anyways, is already determined as well. Fuel consumption being how they figure that. Less weight, more distance traveled.
Jumpships would mean a total change in their construction, though the developers have done so with the introduction of the Compact Jump Drive. And even then, it might not be worth doing. Yes, it might take an extra week to go the distance, you can always recharge and jump another time.
The need for a hazmat medical bay should be cut down because proper surveying of a world should have done so before the colonists are sent. I want to say the med bays of most dropships should contain some of this equipment, as soldiers are regularly assigned to hazardous worlds, but I don't think they specifically say such things.
The power plant idea. Are you reusing the dropship to move others? Is it going to stay where it lands? The rating of fusion plants is set for weapons using it. So how much power does a ppc take over a full electric smelting plant? How much power does the medbay require?
I want to say the Condor dropship has a med ship conversion to it.
Now fitting all of the examples into one ship is probably not going to happen, unless you have just the equipment stores in the cargo bays, and build something on world to house that equipment.
Normal maintenance bays should handle the engineering/logistics portion, as well as maybe electronics.
Making vehicles that are specific for some of the things like a coolant truck that pumps and purifies water instead of hauling coolant comes to mind.
The jumpship cores are sized to the ship for the range jumped. Unless you can add to such cores, I don't see to much in the way of extending their range. That is without a major advancement in jump technology.
Maybe a scout jumpship the size of a merchant or invader with the extra weight being jump core?
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Requiem
07/26/19 07:05 PM
1.158.206.105
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I have come to the conclusion the existing construction rules needs to be replaced to allow for the construction of a more realistic colony ship etc. Thus remove the existing rules and replace it with a completely new rules to allow for advancements in technology from the first jump circa 2100 to 3150. As it appears, within the canon game, as if no advancement in Jump technology has occurred in over one thousand years.
Issue:- What would be the human population (by 2100 almost 11 billion) when colonists start to leave for new planets, on average what would be size of each starting colony –very small no more than about a couple of hundred people per new colony at most, when you compare it to the existing canon Jump ship and Drop Ship technology it just does not make sense. That is unless there are tens of thousands to millions of Jump Ships and a corresponding number of Drop Ships to bring the numbers up to something more real – thus allowing for a sizable population to allow for a thriving colony.
Remember – if you have a small population you also have a small gene pool – the probability of birth defects increases – cousins marrying cousins until a new colony ship arrives with a new influx of people. How long could this take?
Politics – with an 11 billion population would not the politicians of the day want to ship off as many people as they could to reduce the strain on the existing facilities / government budget?
Then there is the issue of the exodus – two years in what could be considered to be nuclear submarine now – I have always wondered how the psychological effects of being locked in a room for two years would have on a society, and then you look at the Clans in the future and it all makes sense – completely deranged.
In my view there needs to be a complete revamp of the existing rules and a re-write to allow for a more realistic setting. In 2100 with a population of 11 billion colonies staring number should be in the thousands to tens of thousands – thus they need the industry necessary to start a prosperous colony – hence the large number of specialized Drop ships from which they can start a viable colony.
This is why I believe if a colony ship should be something like that of the Gundam Series – a central living area that is designed like an earth normal environment with green grass trees, lakes, rivers, houses – this will allow for a positive psychological environment for the colonists who could be within these ships for many years to reach their destination (consider those who went out to what would be called the periphery from Terra). This is why Behemoth size Dropships should be allowed to land on the planet and return to the Colony ship that is in orbit above their new home.
Nt: Each of these Colony ships needs a HPG built into them to communicate with a central Terran Colony control station – giving the green light for the next wave of colonists to be sent.
Thus over time some worlds could / should have multiple colony ships still in orbit above them – that is unless once the colony has been established over the next 50 years they slowly dismantle the colony ship and transport it to the surface – buildings etc for the colony.
To me this just makes more sense than that of the existing technology that has never changed since it was first envisioned back in 2100 – 2300 exodus period.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/26/19 11:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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Well dropships out number jumpships. If any logic is uses, not all dropships leave a solar system. Some are large cargo shuttles.
There is some facts that seem to be overlooked in the observation.
First being, not all colonists go in the same ship. Unlike a lot of games, you just don't land a single ship and build the entire colony from that. An outpost, or maybe mining set up. Ok. But not a full colony.
Second. As the developers leave things vague, so they can come up with 'new' things, a large infantry ship, or even warship used for moving colonists is an option. The current rules are not set up to be the Masters of Orion or games like space colonization. They are set for war.
Third. It would be foolish to send all colonists that are going to the world in one trip. An accident on the jumpship would destroy all chances of it working. A small team sent out to start setting up some major things, such as power, water, shelter and such even in very mild conditions. It is very unlikely the dropship would be left on world. Possibly have enough food for the next scheduled ship to arrive. The SLDF exodus force was not a good example of such a mission.
That is unless there are tens of thousands to millions of Jump Ships and a corresponding number of Drop Ships to bring the numbers up to something more real – thus allowing for a sizable population to allow for a thriving colony. This was argued in other threads, so I would watch statements like this. (clan invasion counter assault)
Colonies are normally set to have an influx of people coming in, on a semi regular schedule. Or they are employees there for a set time, then rotated out to have time back home. So you are correct that is it highly unlikely a flotilla of ships carrying millions of people heading to one spot at the same time would happen.
thus they need the industry necessary to start a prosperous colony , Since when? Food colonies were needed far more then another factory world. Resources were needed to run the factories as well, so they were needed. Even to send the materials back to Terra and the Hegemony. Industry will rise as the need for it becomes necessary. It is nice to have a mech factory built when you land, but not necessary. You bring security forces with you. Even double time workers that provide security when needed, and work other jobs. Like city settlers did in the past.
Nt: Each of these Colony ships needs a HPG built into them to communicate with a central Terran Colony control station – giving the green light for the next wave of colonists to be sent. More then a few colonies did not want coms with Terra. Most wanted a life from under the government's thumb. The Terran government forced colonies to have escorts and soldiers to keep them under Terran rule.
Again. Unless you are going to waste billions to trillions of h-bills or c-bills on ships, you would NOT leave a ship at the colony, unless it is just a few people that have no intention of heading back. If nothing else, you would send some resources back with the ship to try and recoup some money for the next wave.
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Requiem
07/27/19 08:26 AM
1.158.206.105
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First,
Colony Ship with colony drop ships equates to a colony;
Commercial jump ship with predominately mining and ore processing drop ships equates to a mining outpost;
Second,
The developers purposely miffed it up, when discussing the first great exodus into space there should have been a section discussing the wide variety of transport vehicles necessary to transport large numbers of individuals plus their specialized drop ship requirements to ensure a viable colony.
Yes the game is set up for war.
As an example of Colony War ….
However, when the third great exodus arrives (My Alt. Universe) – Where the new SLDF drive the Belligerent Clans from the IS – and is quickly followed by FC and DC corporations and individual colonists expanding both the FC and the DC space. So, what will happen when both the FC and the DC want the same world or when an existing colony becomes the target for a forceful eviction by an unknown group?
So the war continues upon a new front as colonists begin to fight for their new homes and the expansion of their home realms.
Third,
They are not going in one trip.
The first colonist ship and their specialized drop ships pave the way for all future colonists - and in the recent colonization, just as they did during the Americas – Australia – etc.
The Clan invasion was not a colonization – it is a displacement of the existing population by force …. all of the amenities were established – Where a true colonization requires the individual to start from scratch, and this will require a mass influx of individuals and their ships.
Industries are based upon a primary product – this can include agricultural, herbivores, aquaculture, viticulture as well as any technological sectors. To be a successful colony you need a variety of industries that can be merged together to establish as successful colony – physiological needs, safety needs to start with and then over time industries that fulfill the psychological needs and self-actualization needs of the colonists. And this can only be done when you have all the different drop ship types as noted above plus a size-able colony population to ensure its success – otherwise you are just looking at a temporary outpost.
Who said the HPG was communicating with the central Terran Government?
Historically the American colonies were initially set up by religious groups fleeing from government persecution - so if then why not in the future?
Yes a single colony ship is a massive investment but remember in the past many colonists burnt their ships upon arriving in the new world as a declaration of their intent.
The same could be said for the sips in the future – they can become a space station or be disassembled to manufacture new cities on the colony world or they could be sent home to pick up the next wave – it all comes down the philosophy of the colony and what they are striving to create.
Not all decisions are based upon the economic whims of the few – people who look to a broader future in an unknown land can be said to have a very broad and positive outlook that has not been seen in humanity for a very long period of time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/27/19 01:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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and is quickly followed by FC and DC corporations and individual colonists expanding both the FC and the DC space.
There is step one. The bases used to supply the forces hitting the clans would be a good start for a regular colony. Units stationed there would likely want to have family with them, or see a good start for them once the war concludes. So do you need the industrial powerhouse going? Not likely.
And attacks on those colonies was not in the main post. It was saying about creating colonies, not how to attack and take them over. The suggestion the rules need to be rewritten to allow large colony ships was. It really doesn't, as said before. War game, not pioneers of the periphery.
Take the standard designs or make your own with the rules in place. Not easy, but then that is why they are not done in canon.
Australia is a good example of another form of colony. The prison colony turned normal. Another good example of not needing the huge bustling factories to be set down before the colonists get there.
Most colonies don't start in their millions of people. They tend to be small ones, if privately financed, or the houses bring in what is needed, and done up the way they want it.
Yes a single colony ship is a massive investment but remember in the past many colonists burnt their ships upon arriving in the new world as a declaration of their intent.
This may have been the public reason (lies) but the real reason is to make sure no one returned or fled those that would rule the colony. More then a few wanted to return home after being at sea for Earth's history. Without a ship, they couldn't even steal it to get back.
Who said the HPG was communicating with the central Terran Government?
You did.
Nt: Each of these Colony ships needs a HPG built into them to communicate with a central Terran Colony control station – giving the green light for the next wave of colonists to be sent.
The same could be said for the sips in the future – they can become a space station or be disassembled to manufacture new cities on the colony world or they could be sent home to pick up the next wave – it all comes down the philosophy of the colony and what they are striving to create.
Most colonies would never get to this point in the lifetime of those that initially started it. Most colonies are made with a very low cash reserves, and that is normally spent with the initial run. A single city would not have the resources to make a space station.
Not all decisions are based upon the economic whims of the few – people who look to a broader future in an unknown land can be said to have a very broad and positive outlook that has not been seen in humanity for a very long period of time.
No. They aren't. But the way it was presented, it sure sounds like the super rich are the ones driving colonization. Normally that isn't the case. And when they do, they don't need a huge ship that carries thousands of people on it with enough equipment to terraform the world and create the Defiance factory all in one go.
First the assessors and scouts go in. Check out the world and possible sites to start. Then come in the first wave, with the shelters and such with possible farming equipment to get the people started growing, so they will not need a constant influx of food, which takes up space on the dropships.
Now for the big thing. You do NOT leave a ship in orbit. That makes it sound like few, if any, are on board. So the first pirate that comes along now owns that ship. Even normal people will find it hard to resist a multi billion c-bill ship, free for the taking. Even scrapping it for parts would net a fortune. And be hard to trace to bring up piracy charges.
Once the colony starts making money, does it start to attract large businesses, if not started by the rich. So over 20 or more years would this be going on. Not the 5 months like presented.
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ghostrider
07/27/19 01:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Sadly, I just realized why you are pushing for this.
There is no way to come up with a house level deep periphery realm for Victor and Omi to take over in the short amount of time they have left to live without a major exodus into that region.
To have the base, industries and such to hold off the clans, then the aspirations of the IS houses, there is no other way. And this is the keep along canon lines, which the alt can not do.
But if you are going to put up some designs, then do so. Otherwise, I believe this thread has run it's course. Or maybe it should be moved out of the category it is in, and put in the general one.
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Requiem
07/28/19 04:12 AM
1.158.206.105
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Sorry, but I disagree that you don’t need the industrial powerhouse going to create a colony.
You cannot look to the past when considering how a colony is established – agrarian societies produce agrarian colonies.
To understand a future colony upon a distant world you would have to consider NASA’s plans to colonize either the Luna surface or Mars.
When colonies become successful they can generate considerable revenue – people and corporations will always want to take an established colony rather than build their own – hence the necessity of security force.
Large Colony ships just make common sense – unfortunately the games existing construction rules make these impossible – thus e necessity of re-writing the construction rules to allow for these ships. The colonization of the Periphery will allow the game a completely new story arc that it is currently lacking – why have the periphery and all the newly discovered worlds if you never do anything with them? The cannon as is is completely lacking in this area – a complete lack of imagination.
Australia – first fleet – 11 ships – close on 1,400 convicts (Not including military personnel)
So in the future if you had 11 canon colony ships for each world – how many thousand s of people would that equate to?
(Note on the side - South Australia was NOT formed from convicts - formed form independent and free people from England upon the HMS Buffalo)
In my opinion colonies would start in the thousands, however, by the end of the first 200 years of exodus travel you should be considering colonies being established with a population in the tens of thousands as the number of ships increases and costs decrease.
Since when does a Terran Colony Control Station equate to a government - this is just speculation – it could be an independent company and/or attached to a religious organisation.
Remember many religious organisations are very wealthy – thus establishing a new world for the faithful is a real possibility.
QUOTE: You do NOT leave a ship in orbit.
What good then is the inbuilt security systems or human security systems – from keys / to removing key parts of the engine – to security squads on permanent detail to receive HPG messages, relay weather reports / provide over-watch security – pirates in system / aliens / maintain a base of operations in the event of a natural disaster (forcing the population to flee the planet – mega volcano – start of a new ice age – medical emergency such as a plague etc.).
Thus these ships would be very well protected …..
Once a colony is established over 20 years the ability to evict its owners would not be possible – legally the colonists own the land, by then the Great Houses would have recognized this within their legal framework and provided some form of document / certificate of title granting ownership as the original colonists.
However, if within the first couple of months you can get rid of the original inhabitants and at the same time provide all the legal documents etc to a Great House you could quite conceivably be able to take over the colony – as for as the Great House would be concerned you own it legally (as long as there is no evidence to show how you got the land in the first place).
Given the level of technology available – the idea of the Colony Ship and the Colony Drop ships then if the colony began in sometime between 3070 -3090, it is very easy to assume that a new realm could become a reality within fifty to seventy-five years after its initial attempted construction and you could have a new Great House (Victor / Omika) with all of the people/ industry / agriculture necessary thereafter.
The idea of the Colony ship to the game should have been considered – Not only does it allow for the construction of colonies it will also allow for the construction of hidden bases upon uncharted worlds that could be deep within enemy territory from which to strike out at your enemy – a base from which to send out multiple raiding parties.
Colony ships also allow for a mobile military R&R base – hold your planetary assault fleet at a designated strike point prior to assault the base allows the soldiers time to relax – being cooped up on a drop ship for an extended period of time may cause performance issues when in battle due to high stress. A Colony – R&R – base can alleviate this!
Plus in the future (by 3025?) Colony ships will be re-purposed into cruise liners – Mass live animal feed transports – food / re-population of an entire stock yard etc –Governments using them to make worlds self-sufficient rather than relying on outside help … etc.
I am sure there are many other uses they could be put to if the rules were re-written to allow for their development as they should have been when the game war first considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/28/19 12:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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With all the historical references to the past on almost everything else, now it isn't the basis for the future?
And I did not say you couldn't build an industrial powerhouse. I said you start with a small community, normally based on agriculture.
Where the issue with understanding this seems to be the amount of time it takes to increase up to that industrial powerhouse. You don't start dropping down a fully operational mining, manufacturing, and star port the moment you send out your first colony.
Large Colony ships just make common sense
How so? The entire history of the IS has been major warfare. Only colonies that seemed to be done was refugees running from warzones. Those that DON'T have money to buy a huge colony ship. A few outposts were created to take advantage of resources found, with habitable worlds having people go there to create a real colony.
Since when does a Terran Colony Control Station equate to a government
Since immigration off world was controlled by government agencies. The reason for smuggling off colonists was because of that very fact. Or did the history of the game get forgotten again?
What good then is the inbuilt security systems or human security systems
Locks are to keep honest people honest. There are overrides on systems used for any mechanical device. The Neural Helm Override comes to mind, as mech security is supposed to be one of the best. Then actually overriding the hatch access and other things like that. Even having the main codes for a system comes to mind. The biggest commercial software, Windows, has some. Otherwise, they could not get remote access to your system as well as figure out the problem without physically being there.
Stripping the ship for parts is almost as good as taking the whole thing. And with people being part of the 'colonists' that are actually part of those that would steal the ship/rob the colonists, I would say those are get arounds.
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ghostrider
07/28/19 01:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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When did the periphery's law stop being those with the biggest guns control all when it comes to non house sponsored colonies?
The only real defense they have is secrecy. Especially deep periphery.
And the more people that know of it, that aren't with the colonists, the better chance of someone else finding out about it.
So in this case, there is no building a realm in the periphery that will rival the IS states, even the CC right after the 4th war, unless sponsored by the great houses. And that is not going to happen with the power hungry Katherine being in charge. Penal colonies may be done, but they will not expand into an industrial based society as long as she lives. It gives the opposition too much chance to oppose her. Or will logic fail here as well?
Black hole sized plot hole for the HPG idea. Who will build them? Last I knew, Comstar/WOB were the ONLY ones that could build them outside of the clans. And last I knew of, the clans did not sell them. The black boxes would not work as only military commanders would have them, and they would be watched to make sure they didn't disappear. Victor did not have the funds to even attempt to build or buy them. Yes. Some would fall into his hands from sympathizers, but that would not be enough.
Again. There are dropships in existence that can be converted into what is needed. Rewriting the rules isn't going to happen, nor would it be a good idea, just for colony ships. There isn't a huge demand for this. If you want to try, then go for it.
But don't try to justify this by suggesting those that want it, don't make their own ships to do so. There is no need for rules for this beyond what is there.
Bulk livestock transport. Mammoth that is internally pressurized. Same thing can be done with colonists. They have this suggested in the original jumpships and dropships book though it is pointed towards cargo that needs to be kept from freezing. The Monarch dropship is another one that could easily be converted. Any infantry dropship is the same.
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Requiem
07/29/19 12:17 AM
1.158.206.105
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Actually I believe future colonies will start either from agrarian – water – mineral – in which all three will be require. A fully operational industrial operation together with a star-Port for commerce / influx of new colonists is a required necessity within the early days of a colonies establishment.
Only with a fully functional industrial and agricultural base can the colony survive and only with a fully designated star port and city can the colony prosper financially, economically, agriculturally and industrially and this can only occur through an intense immigration program to expand the colony quickly and efficiently.
QUOTE: The entire history of the IS has been major warfare.
And the only way you can get major warfare is through successful colonization and industrial advances. No Colonies, No People, No Agriculture / Water, No Industries, No States, No Weapon Systems, No Rivalries, No Warfare.
Colonies are the cornerstone upon which the entire history of the Inner Sphere is based.
With new colonies – For example my deep periphery example established by Victor and Omika – you get new rivalries and new warfare, you get new battlefields and new fronts wfrom which to attack and defend rather that the existing that have almost never changed from the days of the star League – you do not perpetually need an invasion force of expatriate Clans to create new realms within the IS to perpetuate the cycle of warfare. Something the game developers have clearly forgotten in the canon history.
Government Agencies cannot control colonization – foe example, if the Roman Catholic Church / Mormons could have the resources to set up their own colony …. So,good luck in stopping them …. also there could be many individuals / companies who due to their independent wealth could easily circumvent government agencies for their own agendas.
Where there is a will, there is a way!
Security systems include fighters and advanced long distance scanners (radar) as well as marine units permanently stationed aboard – so getting on board and taking it is not as easy as you may suggest.
Who would leave such a valuable resource undefended by personnel and weapon systems?
Even in the far future why are Jump ships not being so readily purloined, if as you suggest they are so easily acquired.
There has never been a colony that did not include weapons to protect them / assist them in taking / holding the colony so why assume in the future they did not go out with a mass quantity in weapons to hold what they have built – weapons and a sizable security detail would be included in any colony in space to think otherwise is a little naive.
Sorry but I can see many looking for a new life within the Deep Periphery …
Land and riches await those who are the strongest to take it. It only comes down the availability of ships to ensure a new exodus into the deep periphery. Many may at first follow the military as they push back the clans – some may be bandits / pirates looking for a new life – some may be looking to expand their mineral / agricultural wealth considering the IS is already 100% owned and operated new untapped resources could be used in expanding operations / increasing profits.
Do not be so quick to hit the, ”cannot be done button” – survival / greed is a very good motivator to look to the unknown for a more prosperous future for yourself and your family.
All you need do is look at all the colonies established in recent history to see the motivating factors.
HPG stations – Remember in my Alt. History there is still a SLDF which includes both ComStar and WoB – they will build them once a successful colony has been established they will also realise that there is mass profits for them as well – plus would they not want to keep an eye on an up and coming new realm and be able to “assist” them as well?
Plus there is also a third option – Helm Memory Core – what if Victor has the plans to make HPGs and he does so thus creating a realm where ComStar / WoB have no say what then?
This would make for a good plot twist – as long as he can establish the industries to make them he could very well have them created - run the economy into an initial deficit and repay once the major industries / agriculture is booming – Many governments use urban construction to kick start the economy – Roosevelt for example during the depression should be considered?
You do not need to have the cash on hand to get the government working on projects – deficit economies and making the grandchildren pay the bill for what is made now.
I believe re-writing the rules a little to allow for the creation of colony ships and their dropships is a means of expanding the game, it is in sore need of a new story arc that would appeal to those new to the game. The current story arcs are just too convoluted and almost require a PHd in IS History to understand what is going on and whom is against whom and why – this is a major road block to getting in new people and must be simplified otherwise many will put the game in the all too hard basket.
Plus establishing a new colony arc assisting it grow and thrive is a way more fun story arc (Wild Wild West) than the current dark age story arc where a majority of the HPGs stop working for an unknown reason … even writing it, HPGs are down and no one knows why, you want to just yawn!
It also doesn’t help the current story arc is so pitifully written.
The game needs a massive kick to get it revitalised and this cannot come from the current story arc – it is just not going anywhere – especially when the next book to continue the story takes well over a year before it is printed, and then when it is (if it is) printed it is in very small numbers and the only distribution point is the internet and not your local games store where mass advertising is also required to revitalise the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/29/19 12:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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For example my deep periphery example established by Victor and Omika – you get new rivalries and new warfare, you get new battlefields and new fronts wfrom which to attack and defend rather that the existing that have almost never changed from the days of the star League – you do not perpetually need an invasion force of expatriate Clans to create new realms within the IS to perpetuate the cycle of warfare.
Well let's see. Lack of imagination to get the IS states into a war means having to rely on making a new 'realm' that logically, would never come about. And saying canon is screwed up as they rely on big logic holes sounds a bit hypicritical.
Now. Colonizing before and during the League era was done. It was done with the ships that are in use today, or maybe forgotten ones. Contrary to what may be considered necessary, having the Death Star moving colonists to new worlds is not needed. How many ships were used to colonize the world? From the argument, it had to be 2 or 3. Thousands didn't work, nor did industry get built slowly. It all happened at one time with one ship. Full mining/processing plants with rolling out hundreds of cars a day in less then a week.
Government Agencies cannot control colonization – foe example, if the Roman Catholic Church / Mormons could have the resources to set up their own colony …. So,good luck in stopping them
Get a clue. Going light years with a very limited amount of ships verses using a steady stream of ships going across an ocean or even to another land mass and going from there is no where near the same thing. But then the idea of distances and a lack of cheap transportation to get you light years away has been a bit of a mystery in this whole thing.
Security systems include fighters and advanced long distance scanners (radar) as well as marine units permanently stationed aboard – so getting on board and taking it is not as easy as you may suggest.
And who is doing this? The colonists? Or other resources wasting personnel that would be better used working the lands?
if as you suggest they are so easily acquired.
You are the one suggesting they are popping out people's behinds. I have said the game makes them seem like they don't have enough to cover more then the necessities to most worlds. The military has to conscript commercial ones from time to time to even do their thing.
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ghostrider
07/29/19 01:01 AM
66.74.60.165
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There has never been a colony that did not include weapons to protect them / assist them in taking /
So those people creating a community in the mountains that never use a wagon did not happen?
Or better yet. The colonization of the east coast of the U.S. didn't happen, because wagons were not used to protect them. Ships dropped them off and they built from there. Oh wait. That history proves the first statement completely wrong, so it can't be used.
why assume in the future they did not go out with a mass quantity in weapons to hold what they have built – weapons and a sizable security detail would be included in any colony in space to think otherwise is a little naive.
I do know more then a few colonies had weapons with them, as they were made by disgruntled military units.
But let's go back to the reality of space travel. Ships can only carry so much. So do you load 4 mechs into a small dropship or do you leave them home and store tons of grain, water, parts for a purifier and such? There is no unlimited space in ships based on reality. And with the instant industrial giant, you need that space for the machinery. Or are you going to suggest the governments supply the military forces to cover for them?
they will build them once a successful colony has been established they will also realise that there is mass profits for them as well
You said they were to be done with landing of the colony, so they can send word to send the next batch of settlers. And if the SLDF isn't owning those worlds, why would they bother to put up the expensive HPGs on them? So someone else can run them?
what if Victor has the plans to make HPGs and he does so thus creating a realm where ComStar / WoB have no say what then?
And I supposed he just craps out the materials needed, as he doesn't have the funds or resources to do this as he has no base of power. The logic has really left the building here.
I believe re-writing the rules a little to allow for the creation of colony ships
You can do that now. It just requires having to actually create them, and deal with the fact, you are not dealing with ships the size of the earth to do so. Fix the rules before creating new holes.
Hmm. Why does creating a whole new set of rules that aren't worked out right sound familiar?
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Requiem
07/29/19 01:49 AM
1.158.206.105
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Logically a new realm can be established
The Jump ships used current are just way too small to allow for large scale colonization – it is like being stuck in a submarine for two or even more years before they reach their destination – they are not built with the phycology of the colonists in mind - current Jump Ships are just cargo carriers – they in no way resemble a vessel that would be required for transporting mass colonists large distances over very long time period to establish a colony who knows where.
Did I suggest a small moon sized JumpShip? – Go and have a look at the Gundam Colony Ships – they are more I the size of Babylon 5.
Did I suggest cheap transport? Have a look at the wealth of many religions – at the time of the First Great Exodus they could very well afford to build their own shipyard manned by the faithful who could build their own small fleet of Colony Ships to establish their own little fiefdom if they wanted to do so …..
Personnel required for an effective colony
Command Personnel
Agricultural / Aquaculture / Horticulture etc Personnel
Industrial – Engineers and Machine operators etc Personnel
Water / Ground / Air / Waste Processing Personnel
Hospital Personnel
Electrical Generator Personnel
Vehicle Personnel – Civil engineers etc
Labourers
Security personnel
and many more groups should also be considered to achieve a successful first colony.
All the vehicles – includes security fighters that double as reconnaissance
All the houses
All the seeds
All the animals
Yes they would be easily acquired – they may not have top of line weapon systems a military force may have but they will be able to acquire something compatible to it – this is just a new market for aerospace companies to sell their wares to.
Remember what I am suggesting here is a total rewrite due to the games blatant holes – there is no way the existing Jump ships could have been used as a colony vessel – they are just not built for it – thus the need to recognise this error and fix it. As the GM of the game it wouldn’t be that hard to say most of the Great Houses have 100 – 200 of these vessels still in operation – they have just been reconfigured over the years into White Swan Cruise Liners – Transports for Live Meat - Military R&R bases or forward bases from which many raiding parties are launced – some could be currently inoperable (circa 3025) and are now operating as bases to charge the Jump drives of passing Jumpships – some could be in orbit around important worlds acting as a forward security base to protect these worlds with multiple squadrons of fighters or Dropships, they just need the necessary parts to get their engine working again.
I am sure others could come up with other ideas as to where they could be and what they are doing – so when the military pushes the Clans into the Deep Periphery may individuals / companies / governments may remember they have access to one of these ships – and with the newly acquired Helm Memory Core the ability to fix them – thus they head out into the Deep periphery once more establishing new colonies – the purpose for which these ships were built for in the first place.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/29/19 02:20 AM
66.74.60.165
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there is no way the existing Jump ships could have been used as a colony vessel
The jump ships weren't colony vessels. They carried the dropships that were for colonists.
A jumpship would never be useful for a colony ship. They can not really be around gravity wells, as their thrust isn't enough to deal with it. So moving into a system is beyond slow and stupid
Did I suggest a small moon sized JumpShip? – Go and have a look at the Gundam Colony Ships – they are more I the size of Babylon 5.
I love this one. To my knowledge, not even the largest warship was 5 miles long, as Babylon 5 is. The game can not even begin to deal with this.
And as you will say that is why the rewrite is needed, remember this. Others will suggest that warships that size could be made then as well. So the entire unbalanced issues with warships become that much worse.
it wouldn’t be that hard to say most of the Great Houses have 100 – 200 of these vessels still in operation – they have just been reconfigured over the years into White Swan Cruise Liners
So there ARE colony ships in the game. So why the need for a rewrite? I can agree with fixing issues, but as there is no need for making up rules for colony ships, this thread is done.
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Requiem
07/29/19 04:30 AM
1.158.206.105
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Can you imagine living on board a drop ship for two years or more at one stretch, even considering the size of some drop ships space would be a premium – the idea of a colony requires people so unless you have many dropships some with Just people some with just materials and some with just animals the colony is not going to go very far. Though the main issue is the psychology of the colonists – unless there is some new way of relieving stress that no one has identified you are going to have many people breaking down due to the duration within tight quarters.
QUOTE: The game can not even begin to deal with this.
Yes, this is why the game’s rules needs to change – start with small 1 mile long ships and over time build up to 5 mile long.
And Yes, warships also could be made this long! – though if you want to change them from mile to Km as per the Ghost Bear Leviathan then this is also a possibility.
And yes everyone should be able to make them so there is no unbalanced issues.
By 3025 all the warships have been destroyed (canon)
So this just leaves the commercial
By the time the IS removes the Belligerent Clans these ships are once more repurposed for their primary work – the establishment of the Colony.
Victor / Omika’s colony is established – over time becomes a new Great House.
Thread re-established – and yet we didn’t even touch on the idea as the size of the ship (tonnage) increases the distance it can jump decreases.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/29/19 12:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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First off, there are people that live on jumpships, with one not touching a planet in over two years. Jumpship captain in the Grey Death Legion. So it is possible in the future.
There is no reason to have mile long ships. None. I can see stations, as they don't have to survive the stress of more then station keeping and sometimes being shot at. Moving as well as jumping would create stresses that would tear them apart. That is unless they become straight jumpships and never leave the jump points, with no pirate point abilities.
So the small moon colony ship would be made with this. 5 miles across, 5 miles tall spheroid. Developers don't need to add this mess to the game. It would violate their own rules to the point of most not bothering with the space concept of the game. They have done this with the super jumping WOB ships, as well as the monitors, Argo (dropships being able to have others attached to it while attached to a jumpship), as well as a few others.
And yes everyone should be able to make them so there is no unbalanced issues.
The issue isn't all making it, but the idea that one ship would be able to destroy a world in a very short time. Just 5 times the size of the largest means 5 times the fire power. Having a few of these while the enemy has none in system would have changed the outcome of the war. The complain of the FS losing 20 percent of their forces to the Kurita bombardment would be standard with a warship this size.
Saying the docking collars didn't create a problem with this, you could probably load up all 7 cruisis lancer RTCs and bring them in with a 5 mile long ship. This destroys the entire history of the IS. A lack of jumpships was the key to alot of tactics. This removes that issue.
The monolith jump ship could not even come close.
And again. The alt being illogical while trying to follow canon ideas, needs the rules to change to fit it.
Make your own house rules and drop the canon things have to be your way.
And as a side note. You said the alt didn't have the issues of a lack of ships. Why do you need the huge ships, when you have fleets of ships that could be used?
Though it still doesn't make sense to even do a huge colonization effort. A few supply bases, with a few small manufacturing sites to replace armor and ammo. Less areas that need guarding, meaning more forces to attack with. But then logic holes abound.
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Requiem
07/29/19 07:34 PM
1.158.206.105
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First off, people who live on jump ships are small families – ever considered this with hundreds of people and they all, for the most part, have different personalities? The writers, again, never considered the psychology of people – just because they said ‘yes’ does not make it a plausible scenario.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/mental-health-in-outer-space/
Stresses – during the 30’s there was the Empire State Building 443m - and now we have the Burj Khalifat 828m
Engineering within 500 years and built within a zero G environment – who knows?
Just because the current rules say no doesn’t mean that a re-write down the track, or if they ever get there, by 3250 there are 5 mile long vessels within the game. This is science fiction – limited only by our imagination – who knows the Ghost Bears may one day create it – it is plausible.
Comprehension reading – again! – Everyone has 5 mile ships, not one person has them and everyone else doesn’t.
And sorry I do not believe their existence from the start would destroy the game –
You may have the ships – however you are still limited by the dropships and you are also limited by the number of worlds you need to protect and also by the number of attack in worlds you need to strike at.
Yes you could put all the lancers in one ship – but why would you? – as this would leave a massive gap in your defence strategy that your enemy would exploit . And no this does not destroy the Lack of jump ships myth because it was never there in the first place as there are no definitive amounts as to jump ships within the IS at any one time – it is all just made up as it went along!
And what about the idea of lost technology this would have a very large say to determine how many of these vessels are still operational by 3025.
The Alt does not need the canon rules - there can be new Home rules that can get around this it is just up to the Home Group and how they want their universe to be.
QUOTE: Why do you need the huge ships, when you have fleets of ships that could be used?
Colony ships provide an environment suitable for long distance colonization – psychology – animal migration – agriculture –aquaculture etc
Jump-ships as are now are just cargo transports – they are completely impractical for long distance operations.
Colony ships will also rationally explain the Kerensky’s Exodus as well as the Clans Return – as to the number of people being transported / industrial requirements (whole factories) / animals / seeds / water / Battlemechs and other weapons systems etc – as given the fleet numbers are completely unbelievable – dispel all belief in reality once you begin to crunch the numbers.
Sorry but the holes are not there – there is a rational thought behind this idea.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/29/19 08:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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Sci fi game that does not follow logic or facts. So trying to bring in bs from the real world doesn't work.
Again. Make house rules and forget the rewrite of the game. Try promoting this on the official battle tech site. They are more able to deal with this.
Now first. The Ghost Bears did NOT come up with the plans for their massive people carrier. The Snow Ravens did. So suggesting the Bears might come up with something new is completely off logic or facts.
Comprehension reading – again! – Everyone has 5 mile ships, not one person has them and everyone else doesn’t.
Did you not understand that warships that are 5 miles long will destroy worlds without any help? One salvo and most things die that isn't the 5 mile ships and even then, that is not a given. All making them isn't the issue, but using them for war is. And no. This is not the smart way to go. Considering the complaint of the smaller warships being over powered, this idea is just increasing the canon oversight with them.
as this would leave a massive gap in your defence strategy that your enemy would exploit . This wasn't an issue with sending all your forces to stop the clans, why is it a problem now?
Having all 7 of your best forces RCTs able to land on one world would remove the enemies ability to survive quickly. That means NO guerilla actions or reinforcements landing un opposed. This is basic tactics. Overwhelm the enemy.
Jump-ships as are now are just cargo transports – they are completely impractical for long distance operations.
Are you missing something here? The dropships is where the people that are being transported tend to stay. The jump ship crews are the main ones on the jumpships. How is it impractical for long distance operations, as people, especially merc units with dropships move from one end of the IS to the other. Confusing the facts? Or trying to baffle with BS?
The game will follow the majority opinion of the players, not a specific few that are not friends with the developers. If you think otherwise, then post the ideas on the official BattleTech site. Or did they laugh you into a full ban?
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Requiem
07/29/19 10:29 PM
1.158.206.105
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Looking at the Big Picture – just looking at some parts and ignoring the rest …. Fixated upon one aspect creates a false historical narrative.
Historically remember Japans atomic bombing and the completely wrong assumption that nuclear weapons forced Japan to surrender - Gen. Anami on Aug. 13 remarked that the atomic bombings were no more menacing than the fire-bombing that Japan had endured for months. If Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no worse than the fire bombings, and if Japan’s leaders did not consider them important enough to discuss in depth, how can Hiroshima and Nagasaki have coerced them to surrender?
So we have one ship that can kill a planet, and yet in the Jihad we have one drop ship that can do the same thing – so the point is what?
When you put in my rule that smaller ships are faster and larger ones slower – something this big would be a ‘tub’ in space who’s only real purpose is as a mobile fortress. Other-wise the smaller faster ships could maneuver like mobile torpedo boats amongst the battleships – refer sinking of the Austrian Battleship SMS Szent Istvan 1918 (film - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pSiCjfhUUw)
Overwhelming the enemy is one tactic – and yet what is happening to the seven worlds you removed these forces from to gain just one world? Considering it from just one viewpoint doesn’t work!
Comprehension reading again - When I refer long distance I was looking at moving with a time of two years and over? Have you ever seen a military unit sit in their dropships for two years awaiting orders – so confusing the facts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/19 03:00 AM
66.74.60.165
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Overwhelming the enemy is one tactic – and yet what is happening to the seven worlds you removed these forces from to gain just one world?
I don't know. Maybe having other units garrison those worlds while your assault forces deal with the enemy comes to mind.
Where did you come up with the Japanese atomic bombing not being the last straw to get Japan to surrender?
The devastation done, was enough to finally push the surrender. They were going to lose, as their Ally fell.
Was it the only reason they surrendered? No.
So we have one ship that can kill a planet, and yet in the Jihad we have one drop ship that can do the same thing – so the point is what?
The large ship does not need nukes to do so. And with them, as long as the fusion reactor provides power to the weapons, it isn't a one time shot, like a nuke. And now you suggest having such ships in the possession of the IS lords. Do you really believe they will not just bombard the hard target planets, and ignore your conventions?
Logic say they will ignore the conventions as the last one standing, wins. Or did your final word on becoming first lord get shoved to the back again?
For general games, this would absolutely happen. So instead of creating this so players can abuse it, the developers would not even consider it.
something this big would be a ‘tub’ in space who’s only real purpose is as a mobile fortress. A pure mobile fortress that could carry far more firepower and not worry about defenders other then another tub. Fighter regiments, as well as massed stores of supplies. Even a manufacturing plant onboard for taking raw materials and creating ammo and replacement parts.
Oh yeah. The original SDF from Robotech was only a mile long. Hmmm. Babylon 5 is 5 miles long and the only thing stopping them from becoming a mobile manufacturing plant was the fact it was as diplomatic station. Otherwise, you could use it as a base for invading other realms.
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Requiem
07/30/19 05:46 AM
1.158.206.105
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Moving Garrisons Around – Steiner Archon Policy of Concentrated Weakness once more?
Atomic Bombs – this is real indictment upon the education system, including the politicizing of history …..
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
As with one drop ship having the ability to take out a planet – one drops ship can also have the ability to take out this 5 mile long monstrosity
IS Lords would use any warship no matter their size to bombard the hard target planet
The use of such a vessel is just returning to a first succession war mentality
And what about all the other warships within the game have players abused them as well?
And what about all the WoB Drones have players abused them as well?
And what about WMDs have players abused these as well?
The developers have allowed many items into the game that can be misused ….. so the point is?
You do realize that one 5Kt Alamo missile that is designed as an armor piercing round (could drill its way into the ship) and explode will cause a chain reaction that would destroy the entire ship from the inside out?
It does not matter how big your ship is one 5Kt Alamo nuke within the engine / magazine stores and the ship is so much scrap metal.
This reminds me – don’t put all your eggs in one basket!
Have a look at the history of the previous Babylon stations – the largest station ever created (larger than Babylon 5) was stolen by Valon, taken back in time, and used as a base to fight the Shadows to a standstill with the Vorlon ….. point is?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/30/19 06:23 AM
1.158.206.105
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Question – Even though you could make a 5 mile long warship would you?
I cannot believe anyone would be that stupid.
Would it not make more sense to build a fleet of a couple of thousand battleships / cruisers / destroyers etc – thus proving your realm with a greater strategic flexibility than that a one ship policy.
Plus how many decades would it take to build it, and how much would it cost – the cost alone would make it prohibitive from a weapons platform point of view.
So yes you can make it but at the expense of every other branch of your military and your entire civil economy.
So would you still create such a vessel ? Sorry but I doubt anyone would.
As for Colony ships – these are civilian multi-purpose ships with the center being hollow – costs are in no way as prohibitive as a warship.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/30/19 06:25 AM)
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ghostrider
07/30/19 12:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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the politicizing of history
So opinion piece, that changes history to fit the persons thoughts.
The use of such a vessel is just returning to a first succession war mentality
So win as fast as you can at all costs, or die when the enemy does? Hard choice to make. Now if you have time to fight a more honorable war, then you can say to avoid this mentality. Guerilla/freedom fighters do things that the other side says is terrorism. When used against you, it is bad. When you use it, then it is good.
If you believe in full destruction of a nation isn't good, then stop with the annihilation of the clans. This shows the hypocracy of the thought.
There are a lot of things players abuse. But this just removes all ground combat from the game. So a game of armored conflict becomes Star Trek, or Battlestar Galactica. No need for fancy stompy mechs.
And with large ships like this, it would be beyond stupidly foolish to let a single shot be able to take out the ship. But again. A lack of understanding the rules or maybe the inability to follow them shows. The nukes in the game are not the equivalent of the real life nukes.
Do you really believe a colony ship of this size would be available to most organizations?
Really? Only the houses and maybe Comstar could afford such a thing, and as said about the warship version. It would be far better to have massed smaller ships for this purpose. And you are suggesting arming it to avoid someone else with guns from taking the ship?
And with this, any ship that isn't registered to be in a system should be shot out of the sky as soon as it doesn't respond quick enough to challenges.
But then no one would take one of these ships, load it up with ordinance, and drop it on an enemy world, framing those that originally got the ship, and taking out the hated enemy.
But then all colonists have several trillion c-bills to buy a one use ship.
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Requiem
07/30/19 05:35 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: So opinion piece that changes history to fit the person’s thoughts.
Can I please suggest - read the document – It is a convincing in recognising the Japanese timeline and thought process leading up to and after both nuclear detonations and recognises the aims of the Japanese government at all times. It is a myth the nuclear weapons caused the Japanese to surrender – With Stalin’s army joining the war - this forced them to surrender.
QUOTE: This shows the hypocrisy of the thought.
Making an assumption again? Suggest reading Sun Tzu The Art of War; Machiavelli The Prince; Punic Wars; Gallic Wars; The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest
QUOTE: There are a lot of things players abuse. But this just removes all ground combat from the game.
This is where the game needs a little more work – if you have one warship in the game then there must be a way to defend / attack the vessel that is exciting for the game’s players.
Otherwise let’s just go back to 3025 – no warships at all – just the fighters attacking the Dropships / Mech drop pods.
QUOTE: The nukes in the game are not the equivalent of the real life nukes.
And yet everything else must be as realistic as possible?
Quote: Do you really believe a colony ship of this size would be available to most organizations?
Available to – All Great Houses – ComStar – Exceedingly wealthy corporations – Religions (Catholic / Mormon etc.) – Banks (Repossession)
QUOTE: And you are suggesting arming it to avoid someone else with guns from taking the ship?
A colony ship – just like a Jump Ship comes with weapons packages, however they also come with a flight deck to launch fighters and support shuttles from.
QUOTE: any ship that isn't registered to be in a system should be shot out of the sky as soon as it doesn't respond quick enough to challenges.
In which era, as this needs to be quantified as to available forces – however most / if not all ships are fitted with an automatic IFF system – thus negating the need for a challenge.
QUOTE: But then no one would take one of these ships, load it up with ordinance, and drop it on an enemy world, framing those that originally got the ship, and taking out the hated enemy.
Are we back to Gundam – when Zeon dropped a colony onto Sydney Australia?
QUOTE: But then all colonists have several trillion c-bills to buy a one use ship.
Isn’t this dependent upon how the vessel is built – its purpose?
Though most colony ships would be used to take people / goods back and forwards from Terra to who knows where with the ability to live within a habitable environment – and at 1G – psychologically and physically it would be better for the people to have a ship of this design than sitting in a dropship for a couple of years where the majority of the time is at 0G and you are going nuts because of the extreme close quarters – the animals must really love it (did anyone ever consider muscle atrophy of animals and people whist being in space at 0G for an extended period of time?).
Overall the idea is sound – Colony ships with a rotating cylinderal area in which a faux Terran environment is maintained – Hills, Rivers Small City Houses etc – in which the colonists and their animals live for an extended period of time (any where between one and four years) to reach their destination with a simulated Gravity makes more sense than that of a Jumpship and its attached dropships
That is unless you have an artificial gravity machine on board all of your Jump / Drop ships – then I would like to ask why are there no gravity weapons – Robotech Gravity Mine for example?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
07/30/19 07:35 PM
97.101.136.19
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Hi, folks, I'm seeing some drift toward real world politics in the nukes discussion. Keep it to the game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
07/31/19 12:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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First off, this isn't Gundam. If you want Gundam, go play it. The game had more then enough issues with copyright issues with Robotech.
Saying that the clans need to be wiped out, yet complaining that the FS is going that way in the newer story line is hypecritical. And yet letting Katherine back into power when all know what she is capable of is beyond this.
Now I am not sure of where you are getting your information from, but the 3025 jumpships only had one with a weapons package.
A ship this large jumps into your system, you verbally challenge it. IFF is nothing that can't easily be faked. Enough dropships change hands pretty regularly, removing a module from one and installing it on another ship isn't that difficult. And with this, you can drop a very large military force on worlds in the system. Best to know it's hostile at the jump point. And don't try to say a pirate point would work for something this large.
There are more then a few stories using this very ploy. Raiders tend to do this.
Though most colony ships would be used to take people / goods back and forwards
This is going on all the time. Why need this huge ship, when there are thousands, maybe even upwards of hundreds of thousands of dropships doing so?
And as for assumption, you are assuming the current ships are unlivable after a few weeks in space. The Whale liners are supposedly to be the best. But it was said the Monarch dropship was too soft for soldiers to be comfortable in.
Now, another assumption. When their parent jumpship is recharging, the dropships remain attached. Did you even think they would undock, perform 1 g burns to help the people feel better? It was said jumpships captains have done so when they were recharged, but waiting for a dropship to get to them.
And how do you think they got terrain animals shipped to all the worlds that are inhabited in the first place? The initial expansion didn't use cryo chambers for it. Live animals moved.
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Requiem
07/31/19 06:12 PM
1.158.206.105
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I was under the impression this thread was about considering alternate ideas as to the existing Jump and Drop Ships as the current design process does not make any sense when it comes transferring colonists over a period greater than one year to their final destination. Psychologically and physically for both the colonists and the animals they are taking with them.
What I am proposing is just an alternate ship design and the idea alternate construction rules as well as a change to the distance any ship can jump should be based upon its total tonnage – as, surely this makes a little more sense than the idea that no matter how big your ship is they can all jump to a maximum set distance.
And yet here we go again wandering off topic ….. OK then you want to go there again ….. With Regards to my Alternate Universe Thread …..
Gundam – I was responding to your idea about dropping a ship onto the enemy (alternate orbital bombardment) so I made the quip ridiculing it!
First,
Removing all belligerent Clans from the IS does not mean they will be utterly destroyed ….;
Considering different groups other than Kerensky for their establishment does not mean they will be destroyed i.e. They were formed from ex-Amaris forces; and
Even when I considered the people’s uprising upon the Clan Home Worlds they are not destroyed –they just undergo a change to their way of life.
Second,
The current Invasion by the CC and the DC into the FC due to the one single battle where the writers decided the DC could kill off 20% of the AFFS via an orbital bombardment when they had this single force upon one world, at the same time, makes no sense whatsoever. And yet making no sense whatsoever has never stopped them before in writing sub-par doggerel ….
Third,
Establishing a General of the Army as the next Archon of the Steiner State is so ludicrous it should be held up as being on par with the Huntress ludicrously – when it comes to not returning to the IS with a complete blueprint of Clan technology as well as all the factories and personnel to run them.
During the Jihad if her brother did resign the throne it would make more sense that Katherine would return to take the throne than allowing her to remain with the Wolves and allowing a commoner on the throne (As this totally goes against the Lyran Culture and their legal framework as to the rules of succession).
As for a 5 mile long ship – yes I agree this is ludicrous size (However if someone wanted a ship this large within their game I do not see the point in telling them they are wrong – it is their game let them create their own universe without prejudice) but getting hung up on the size of the ship needs to be put to one side as a minor factor – however the underlining idea is not – that for a colony ship it should a central cylinder, in which it rotates at a constant one gravity and over time and can be increased / decreased so that it can simulate their new home worlds gravity over time – thus getting the colonists / animals ready for their new world.
By having an internal environment similar to a rural environment – trees, grass, lakes, streams, and houses – this will allow for a more positive environment both for the colonist’s psychological and physical needs when they are within space for a long period of time.
Remember, the internal environment can also be used as a training environment for the colonists to prepare them for their new home – this is invaluable experience for them over the time it takes for them to reach their destination.
These ships would also explain the transfer of large populations over a relatively short period of time when it relates to – the first exodus all the way out to the Periphery – Kerensky’s exodus of millions of people (where the numbers per ship do not work at all) – the return of the Clans utilizing such small number of Jump Ships – and my Alt. History new exodus to colonize the Deep Periphery.
Yes a Colony ship would also be a mass drop ship carrier – a colony requires a massive amount of material to be transported in correlation with the population of the colony to ensure its viability.
Yes a Colony ship should also have a security force for the ship itself but also for the security of the colonists – this would include marines, armour, air defence units and aerospace fighters at the minimum.
A colony must be prepared for all eventualities and this includes hostile eventualities by any threat – human or otherwise!
Dropships do not have gravity – they are small and they are cramped – their use does in no way explain live transport of people and animals for extended period of time – muscle atrophy – by the time they reach their new home they would need physiotherapy prior to living on the new home world - their use does not explain the psychology of the colonists locked within a small environment for long periods of time – their use does not explain mass transportation of colonists (that is unless you have a massive fleets of Jump Ships and a corresponding massive fleets of Drop-Ships over a very long period of time)
Verbal Challenge
This would only occur …..
First, when the system has been colonized;
Second, when that colony has the electronics, surveillance equipment, that is necessary to detect the incoming vessel;
Third, there is an existing station situated at the jump-point to view the incoming ship; and
Fourth, this is a military game so how you use it militarily is completely up to you and your game master to determine its merits / viability.
Drop ships performing 1 Gravity burns – first, this would be sporadic whereas with a colony ship it is permanent and can be increased / decreased over an extended period of time – second, Fuel – third, what if a complication arose, how are you going to arrange a rescue mission?
As stated above for live animals – they could live in a field within a colony ship (no stress / natural environment / waste product can gotten rid of naturally) – whereas with a drop ship you would need the same conditions as a live animal transport ship that is used currently to transport sheep / beef from one country to another – may I suggest you youtube a video of these conditions - it is the most despicable of conditions on an animal and should never be considered to be a viable means of transporting live animals for extended periods of time (over a year) - the colony ship is the only rational means of transporting animals for an extended period of time.
What about the storage of feed and water, this must be a considerable amount when you consider the number of animals necessary for a viable colony.
How are you going to store all this feed and water and the animals at the same time?
Waste product, who is going to clean their holding pen per animal and what are you going to do with it.
And then there is the smell (within a cramped environment) the people within the same drop ship will not be happy about this.
Also when you have animals within a cramped environment, if one comes down sick they will all come down sick. This could very easily lead to the loss of the whole herd when you are transporting them for an extended period of time.
What about communicable diseases when it comes to animal waste product – within a cramped environment such as a drop ship. This would have to be very closely monitored as the chances of a colony member catching something dangerous would be high.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/31/19 06:32 PM)
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ghostrider
07/31/19 07:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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I was under the impression this thread was about considering alternate ideas as to the existing Jump and Drop Ships
But yet it turned to trying to make the game fit the alt. Like almost every other post.
It is funny that the alt is so horrible, yet the alt continues to follow it. Changing rules to fit the alt is fine for you and your group, but when posted here, it sounds so much like a complaint fest it isn't funny. You don't like the canon, then don't play the canon. Most here aren't thrilled about having this alt thread being shoved down their throats. Change this, yet don't change that. Yet it is done in alternating threads. Yet some how, that point seems to be missed.
The original thought for the alt was all clans. Nothing was said about belligerent clans.
Now as for ship sizes being the rule for jumping farther, that doesn't really fit to well. A larger drive should hold more energy to send a craft thru the 'portal' for a jump. How much weight is on it might make a difference. IE a Monolith with one drop ship or by itself should jump further then a full one. And even with that, the full one should jump further then a scout jumpship.
Much like a catapult verse a trebuchet.
Establishing a General of the Army as the next Archon of the Steiner State. Victor should have regained the title. Katherine was incarcerated, so couldn't be considered. Yvonne would be next. But then at the time, moving the ruler of the state was more important then who was picked. I don't like the fact Adam got it, but then I don't know the who story there. But does it mean it is wrong? Not at all. It means your little merc group wouldn't worry about who is in charge, except when it comes time to be paid.
Players are NOT supposed to change the course of canon. They are meerly the sideshow.
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ghostrider
07/31/19 07:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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As for a 5 mile long ship – yes I agree this is ludicrous size (However if someone wanted a ship this large within their game I do not see the point in telling them they are wrong – it is their game let them create their own universe without prejudice)
Ah. But there lies the key. Saying the rules need to be rewritten to conform to YOUR ideas is the problem. As with almost all of the posts, the presentation is where the problem lies.
The rules are stupid so they have to be this. That is how most of the posts comes off. Demanding all conform to your ideas. Not 'hey. Here's an idea. What if?'
And it always returns to has to be your way.
By having an internal environment similar to a rural environment – trees, grass, lakes, streams, and houses – this will allow for a more positive environment both for the colonist’s psychological and physical needs when they are within space for a long period of time. Hydroponics gardens can do wonders here. Maybe D&D Spelljammers might be better for you. Put the magic helms on a chunk of land and create an Arkship. That is in the rules for Spelljammer. No need to say it has to be your way as the canon doesn't fit.
And the fact that they can stop at worlds and let the people stretch their legs hasn't come to mind?
If the Mammoth is too small, then use a behemoth. Just don't try to fit all the garbage in one ship. A single deck could be laid out to have most of the attractions. If not under power, then the water fall would not be in operation. Simple burns to create the gravity is being ignored as well.
how are you going to arrange a rescue mission? Same could be said about the large ship. And with all the garbage you want to bring, multiple ships would be used.
Again. You want a large ship, that's fine. Don't come in saying the rules have to be changed to fit your vision.
this must be a considerable amount when you consider the number of animals necessary for a viable colony. A colony can survive without bringing livestock with them. Not sure if their target world has some sort of meat to hunt or domesticate, but then they should have scouted the world before sending people there. Maybe even having a few ships take the supplies there before loading up the main colonists.
Wow. What a concept. To have a large chunk of the buildings done before the people get there.
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Requiem
08/01/19 02:39 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Again. You want a large ship, that's fine. Don't come in saying the rules have to be changed to fit your vision.
When re-reading the first sentence in this post you have, “Should the rules need changing in the following areas …”
Mass to energy to distance ratio –
My changing rule postulation - Opening, maintaining and closing jump corridor does not require an extreme amount of energy – the majority of the energy is lost due relationship between the weight of object jumping and the distance it can travel.
Low weight craft require smaller drives however this can propel the ship to greater ranges.
Large weight craft requires larger drives however due to the weight restriction the ship can only be propelled a short distance.
However, if a ship has multiple drives this can act as a boost to extend the overall range of the object. Thus if a jump ship were to more than one engine it could theoretically extend its jump range.
So, keeping an open mind, should it be changed to the above postulation?
QUOTE: Establishing a General of the Army as the next Archon of the Steiner State. Victor should have regained the title.
Sorry no, Victor could not legally regain the title without submitting a request to have his abdication annulled by the Estates General. Politically, he has too many dissenters within the Estates General due to his ‘handing’ of the Civil War and that of giving his sister to the Wolves, so good luck in getting the Estates General ratifying this.
As for Katherine, sorry no I disagree she is not incarcerated with Wolves she is in exile with the Wolves – this is a massive historical and political distinction. If she was incarcerated she would still be under Victor’s care and would not have been given to the Wolves. Once with the wolves she is defined as being in exile.
Suggest looking at the dark ages as to rulers who are sent into exile, at what usually happens next.
However, are you not forgetting Archon Peter Steiner-Davion’s son – Hanse Steiner-Davion-Hussfiel - who was bypassed within the canon to give the title to Adam. At this time he could have been no more than 5 years old which should have necessitated a triumvirate to rule until his majority and not a full transfer to Adam – this is where the game developers erred completely as to the law of succession – Adam should have been made Lord Protector of the Realm until Hanse came of age.
QUOTE: Players are NOT supposed to change the course of canon. They are merely the sideshow.
And yet how many pebbles in history have created an avalanche!
Sorry but I do not understand how you can make a comparison between a technology used for a Colonization vessel and that of a defunct dungeons and dragons supplement - the magic based spelljammer vessel. Am I to assume that an LRM launcher is to be converted to a Magic Missile Launcher in the future?
QUOTE: And the fact that they can stop at worlds and let the people stretch their legs hasn't come to mind?
Does this mean you will also let the animals “stretch their legs as well”?
Time to reaching their destination has now been increased by a factor to two or three if you adopt this policy?
Plus the costs have also been increased due to the increased fuel / food / time requirements (and every other cost)?
Question, what if you were the first colony ship, would you stop off at every unknown system to investigate every world therein or would you continue to your destination with all due alacrity?
When you compare a drop ship’s available space to that of what I am proposing a dedicated colony ship – even the bare necessities of an initial colony the requirements would be extensive.
How many years will it take for the next ship to arrive – a decade at minimum would not be unheard of? Thus getting as much “garbage” (essential technology) there as possible to ensure a viable colony is a must.
The chance of needing a rescue mission when a single or multiple colony ships are dispatched is reduced when you compare it to a single / multiple jump ship(s) with multiple drop ships that are dispatched for 1 gravity burns every time the jump ship’s battery requires recharging.
The chance of a mishap occurring to these multiple drop ships conducting multiple one-gravity burns should be considered to be greater than than of the normal mission of a colony ship(s).
A vegan space colony? This is a possibility – however, can you say everyone would be vegan in the future? Even if it is just one colony that has requested to transport animals can you say transporting them within a drop ship is not only safer (medically - to both the animals and their keepers) but is also more humane than that of a colony ship? I doubt an argument can be made that keeping an animal locked in a pen for multiple years within a drop ship (and only occasionally being let out at pit stop worlds) is more humane than that of a permanent free range paddock within the colony ship.
QUOTE: Maybe even having a few ships take the supplies there before loading up the main colonists.
Can you say these supplies will be there for the colonists when they get there?
What will the colonists do if they get there and they find the supplies are not available?
Question: What about the psychology and the muscle atrophy of the colonists and their animals?
It can be stated with an absolute certainty that a colony ship will produce a more positive environment for the colonists and their animals than that of the drop ship transport over an extended period of time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/01/19 08:47 AM
1.158.206.105
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Note: there are no rules for the construction of such a vessel – I just cobbled together something that looks appropriate to the needs of the colony. An approximation of what I would consider to be a Colony vessel as it were.
NON-CANON VESSEL
Dawn (Colony Class)
Production information
Manufacturer ……………………………… Terran Colonization Inc.
Introduced ……………………………………
Production Year ……………………………
Use………………………………………………. Colony
Tech Base .…………………………………… Inner Sphere
Cost……………………………………………..
Technical Specifications
Mass…………………………………………… 2,000,000 tons (approximately?)
Length ……………………………………….. 8,500m
Cylindrical Colony diameter ………........... 2,000m
Internal Land…………………………..…… 100 km square
Sail Diameter……………………………...... 2,000m
Fuel ………………………………………….. 40,000 tons
Burn Rate ………………………………….. 44
Safe Thrust ……………………………….. 1 g
Top Thrust ………………………………… 1.5 g
Sail Integrity …………………………….… 5
KF Drive Integrity ………………………... 19
LF Battery …………………………………. No
Armament
………………………………………………….. 16 LRM 20
………………………………………………….. 32 Large Lasers
………………………………………………….. 16 PPC
Armor ………………………………………… 150 tons standard
Dropship Capacity ……………….......…….. 12
Cargo
………………………………………………….. 6 Fighters
………………………………………………….. 12 Small Craft
………………………………………………….. 250,000 tons of Cargo
Personnel - Crew
………………………………………………….. 51 Officers
………………………………………………….. 312 Enlisted / non rated
………………………………………………….. 68 Gunners
………………………………………………….. 120 Marines
………………………………………………….. 160 Bay Personnel
Personnel – Passengers
………………………………………………….. 5,000 Colonists
………………………………………………….. 1,000 Large Animals
………………………………………………….. 2,000 Medium Animals
………………………………………………….. 2,000 Small Animals
Escape Pods / Life Boats ……….............….. 270 / 600
Heat sinks …………………………………..... 1,000
Structural Integrity …………………............. 60
Description
At the dawn of the First Terran Exodus a competition was held to design a Colony Ship in which the internal colony would have a surface area of approximately 100 square kilometres and a maximum gravity or 1.5 times standard. This resulted in the development of the Dawn-class Transport and Colony-class Carrier.
The Dawn-class vessel was the first true vessel dedicated to transporting a large scale number of colonists to their new home worlds together with all the necessary equipment to produce a viable colony.
The internal 100 Km square land simulates a green agricultural landscape comprising a small city of luxury apartments and other businesses, schools, hospital etc., similar to those that will be built for the colonists upon their new home world, multiple rivers, a lake (for swimming and aquaculture), a small forest as well as an agricultural area for their future animal and agrarian needs. The land area also contains a colonist training area to educate colonists during their cruse duration to reach their new home world. The environment can also simulate any season and can also simulate rain and a normal stellar day / night rotation – light and dark period. The entire environment is designed to keep the psychological stress of the colonists and their animals to a minimum.
Ship History
During the First Exodus these transports served as a means to transport large number of populations to their designated colony worlds and have over the centuries served a variety of roles for both military and civilian operations.
Armament
The Dawn-Class Colony Transport mounts only conventional weapons and aerospace fighters, allowing the vessel to defend itself from only lighter Aerospace fighters and Drop ships.
Note: when you look at both a small and a large habitat (Canon) you will quickly realise the number of people assigned to both of these two stations have been thoroughly exaggerated – example -there is no way a large station of 1,100m long and a diameter of only 750m can house 28,600 people.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/19 12:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Opening, maintaining and closing jump corridor does not require an extreme amount of energy
Then it should be possible for multiple ships to use that 'portal/gateway'. It is set from point A to point B.
If it requires a ship to move into it, in the absolute right direction, then I don't see why you couldn't line up ships and have one portal open for them all.
Thus if a jump ship were to more than one engine it could theoretically extend its jump range. The Ion-Lithium drive does this. It repowers the core. Which is far smaller then a second jump drive. Now oddly, it does not damage the drive like a fast charge supposedly does. Hmmm.
Sorry no, Victor could not legally regain the title without submitting a request to have his abdication annulled by the Estates General. So they approved Adam. Considering what finally came out with Katherine's downfall, this is more likely then Katherine being able to come back. Victor was not accused of the horrible things Katherine ordered.
Hanse Steiner-Davion-Hussfiel - who was bypassed within the canon to give the title to Adam. Yeah. Let's put the fate of the FC in the hands of a 5 year old. Didn't they learn from the original SL? And any reagent would more then likely move to steal and keep the power of the rulership. If nothing else, put Yvonne on the throne and the general estates would run it. Until someone moved to take over completely.
Sorry but I do not understand how you can make a comparison between a technology used for a Colonization vessel and that of a defunct dungeons and dragons supplement
You are trying to change the rules to move a chunk of land, instead of using the normal dropships. I just figured instead of demanding a rule change, you just deal with a game that already has that in it.
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ghostrider
08/01/19 12:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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Does this mean you will also let the animals “stretch their legs as well”?
Time to reaching their destination has now been increased by a factor to two or three if you adopt this policy?
How many colony expeditions would have the resources to use a command circuit or even keep the same jumpship to travel the entire distance? This is much a commercial venture, meaning they would probably have to book multiple ships for all the jumps they have going. So the time to stretch for a few days is probably not long enough to wait until the next jumpships is supposed to arrive, then recharge.
Even the houses aren't going to have a command circuit for colonizing things. Make a military base is different, so that line doesn't work.
Plus the costs have also been increased due to the increased fuel / food / time requirements (and every other cost)?
It is far less then paying for this huge, one time ship. Also, the only time you have an issue with getting fuel is once you leave the civilized areas. Which may well be the biggest part of the long journey.
Question, what if you were the first colony ship, would you stop off at every unknown system to investigate every world therein or would you continue to your destination with all due alacrity?
First ship going to a known destination? Or exploring to find a place to settle down? Large difference in the two.
What will the colonists do if they get there and they find the supplies are not available? The same thing the military does when their supplies are plundered. They have to find food sooner then expected. Go hunting. Find edible plants. It really depends on the world you found.
-there is no way a large station of 1,100m long and a diameter of only 750m can house 28,600 people. Housing is very possible. Growing food to feed them isn't. But then this is not a farming habitat. I have no illusions that this is just a huge apartment block set up. You are not going to have parks, roadways and such. Airlocked docks, with transport tubes, and hallways to move people around. Other then that, would be a follow to even attempt to think of.
The example ship is decent, but I would suggest looking at the McKenna warship for some pointers.
And do realize, that spinning the whole ship would have to stop before a jump. Otherwise, the ship will misjump. Gravdecks need to be shut down for jumps, the entire ship moving messes up the computer calculations.
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Requiem
08/01/19 08:16 PM
1.158.206.105
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Multiple ships using the same portal –
Consider – if multiple ships can use the same portal then is it either a Star-gate or a portal from the 80’s show Buck Rodgers or is it the web way from Warhammer 40K?;
Consider – the ship requires an energy field enveloping it prior to opening the portal and then jumping.
Semantics - Repowering a core or extended range of a single jump – what I would like to considered is for something as small as a bug-eye it has an initial range double the normal jump as per canon and if a new second engine is attached and it still comes in within the small weight category this will give it a range of four times the range of a normal canon jump.
It makes for an interesting idea for idea when you consider utilizing multiple first / deep strike raiding units as well as when your house has a decent naval fleet.
Archon Adam -
Question – Lyran Culture – Money and Rank/Title are the cornerstone of their culture.
The Game Developers approved Adam.
However, if you ask yourself doesn’t this proposed election of Adam go against the Lyran culture?
I can only say it does – it not only goes against their culture it also goes against the entire canon legal framework.
So, would the Estates General – a small number of elite people who have the rank/title above the rank of Count – approve someone eight generations or more away from the the main family? Remember there is an Heir and he if no more than 5 years old, this would necessitate the need of a triumvirate – this would also mean the head of the Estates General would be one of the three protectors of the realm – Self-interest Vs. the interest of the State -how much could the current Estate General members get away with (become wealthier) with a triumvirate at the helm in comparison with an individual Archon. My bet – with a 5 year old – they believe they could become richer and obtain more power.
Also remember many of the Estates General members are within the line of succession ahead of Adam – why would they go against their self-interests and vote someone else into the Archonship when with a little political manoeuvring they themselves could be considered a candidate?
Sorry but the game developers totally gaffed here!
Also ask yourself when many of the current Estates General members when ruled by Katherine - how many back room deals allowed them to have the good life – and with Victor imposing his brother what happed to that good life – evaporated ? – then ask yourself if people thought the good life could return with Katherine once more would they accept her return? Politically, Legally and Culturally I can only say yes. Not only would many of the Estate General nobles desire her return but many of the Lyran people would also desire her return. Remember her political image is as white as it can get – how many would believe Victor’s story as to what Katherine did – they would believe Victor is just attempting to justify his actions in selling his sister to the Clans – at this stage Victor’s public persona within Lyran Space would, in all probability, be one step above Amaris.
It then just comes down to numbers and back room deals being made – Triumvirate Vs. Katherine – on the balance of probability I believe that Katherine would be asked to take the throne once more at this stage.
Note if Hanse Steiner-Davion-Hussfiel is elected as Archon designate he would receive a Triumvirate. This includes ….
His mother – to represent his interests;
Adam Steiner – As the head of the Army – becomes Lord Protector of the Realm – and represents the security of the realm; and
The Head of the Estates General – he/she represents the states bureaucracy.
This would be the second time in Lyran history this has been formed so why all the fuss?
QUOTE: You are trying to change the rules to move a chunk of land, instead of using the normal dropships. I just figured instead of demanding a rule change, you just deal with a game that already has that in it.
And when that “chunk of land” is within a ship – a very large greenhouse – what’s the problem?
Command Circuit for a colony – Timing issue.
Initially there would only be a small number of ships so the idea of of a command circuit is not available to them – hence the necessity of using a colony ship
As time progresses and the number of ships manufactured increases, and you have the wealth to create a circuit, yes you could do this. However, by now all the planets would have an active colony on them and you are only coming into an established world not as a colonist but as a migrant.
Note – Colony ships would not be a one-time use vessel – with owning such a vessel you would want it to travel back and forth as many times as possible to get your people to the promised land – and with the size of its holds it could transfer even prefabricated industries to the new world to enable the development of the colony, technologically, at a very rapid rate. And as a Colonist isn’t this what you want?
Fuel –
Mars expedition – what NASA is suggesting is that the expedition to Mars will make their own fuel for the return journey. So why can’t the colony ship make its own fuel?
Or why not take fuel tankers with them to increase their range?
Risk assessment
Leaving supplies on the planet in advance of the colony Vs. bring it with them – conduct a Human Resources Risk Assessment – each colony will have their own idea about this.
They could even have planted forests of fruit trees – so when the colonists arrive they could have orchards ready to go.
Large Habitat – Oxymoron of a description?
Considering its volume per person it would be very cramped (what you are saying is that you can put 28,600 people into a volume of half a Km cube - and this is not even considering the superstructure / engines air / water reclamation etc.) – and self-sufficiency is non-existent – thus if the regular food drop does not arrive you are always one step away from riots and starvation – psychologically, not a very good place to live. That is unless you do totally modify the internal structure to include food production – aquaculture / hydroponics etc and you reduce the population number considerably to an amount you can feed.
Colony Ship Jumping
What would happen if there are two hulls – an outer hull that does not move and an inner hull that does – creating a uniform 1 gravity constant? – would it still cause a problem for the computer calculations?
As this is my House Rule – I am going to say no it won’t cause a problem.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/01/19 08:27 PM)
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Requiem
08/02/19 03:03 AM
1.158.206.105
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I believe I erred on the first attempt – consider this an update ……
Note: there are no rules for the construction of such a vessel – I just cobbled together something that looks appropriate to the needs of the colony. An approximation of what I would consider to be a Colony vessel as it were.
NON Canon – In House Creation
……………………………………………………..Dawn (Colony Class)……………………..Sky Dancer (Colony Class)
Production information
Manufacturer ……………………………………………………. Terran Colonization Inc.
Introduced ………………………………………………………….
Production Year …………………………………………………
Use……………………………………………………………………. Colony
Tech Base .………………………………………………………… Inner Sphere
Cost……………………………………………..
Technical Specifications
Mass…………………………………………… 1,000,000 tons………………………… 2,000,000 tons(approximately)
Length ……………………………………….... 5,500m ………………………………… 8,500m
Cylindrical Colony diameter ………..........…2,000m ……………………………….... 4,000m
Internal Land…………………………....…… 25 km square …………………………. 50 Km square
Sail Diameter………………………….....…... 2,000m …………………………………. 3,000m
Fuel ………………………………………...…. 40,000 tons ……………………………. 80,000 tons
Burn Rate ………………………..………….. 44 ………………………………………… 64
Safe Thrust ………………………...………... 1 g ………………………………………… 2 g
Top Thrust ………………………..…………. 1.5 g……………………………………….. 3 g
Sail Integrity ………………………....………. 5 …………………………………………... 5
KF Drive Integrity …………………….......…. 19 …………………………………………. 19
LF Battery …………………………………..... No …………………………………………. No
Armament
………………………………………………….. 16 LRM 20 …………………..……………… 24 LRM20
………………………………………………….. 32 Large Lasers …………………....……… 40 Large Lasers
………………………………………………….. 16 PPC ……………………………………… 24 PPC
Armor ………………………………………… 150 tons standard ……………….......…… 300 tons standard
Dropship Capacity …………………….. 9 ………………………………………………....... 12
Cargo
………………………………………………….. 6 Fighters …………………………….. 12 Fighters
………………………………………………….. 12 Small Craft ………………………… 24 Small Craft
………………………………………………….. 250,000 tons of Cargo………….....…. 400,000 tons Cargo
Personnel - Crew
………………………………………………….. 51 Officers……………………………. 71 Officers
………………………………………………….. 312 Enlisted / non rated ………....... 412 Enlisted / non rated
………………………………………………….. 68 Gunners ………………………..… 90 Gunners
………………………………………………….. 120 Marines …………………………. 200 Marines
………………………………………………….. 160 Bay Personnel ………...……….. 300 Bay Personel
Personnel – Passengers
………………………………………………….. 20,000 Colonists…………………………..… 40,000 Colonists
………………………………………………….. 2,000 Large Animals ……………………….. 4,000 Large Animals
………………………………………………….. 4,000 Medium Animals ………………...….. 6,000 Medium Animals
………………………………………………….. 4,000 Small Animals ………………………. 6,000 Small Animals
Escape Pods / Life Boats ………….......... .. 540 / 900 …………………………………… 810 / 1,200
Heat sinks ………………………………......… 1,000 ………………………………………… 1,200
Structural Integrity ………………......…........ 60 …………………………………………….. 80
Description
Take a McKenna Warship – slice it down through the hull behind the sale – put in between the two pieces a very large cylinder and re-join these three pieces together (Note however for Sky Dancer Class double the size of the front / engine compartment and fix on to the cylinder). This would be an approximation of how it would roughly look like.
The Cylinder is divided into three compartments
- The For – Predominately Colonist / Officers living compartment / offices / entertainment / shopping etc.
- The middle – the single gravity deck spinning to produce a 1 g gravity – as stated above this area simulates an agricultural landscape and is where all the animals are stored during their transport – This area also includes the children’s Schools (so that their growth will not be duly impeded as well as a couple of dwellings for parents with infants)
Crew and Colonists are expected to take the opportunity of utilising this deck for their recreation (schedule posted - to alleviate crowding at any one time) – bicycles, horses, walking / running tracks, canoes etc are supplied.
- The Aft - Predominately Colonist / Ratings / others living compartment etc.
Nt: Running through the middle of these three compartments is an electric train (like a subway)to transport people to work / school / entertainment facilities etc – when entering the middle compartment certain sections are open to view the landscape below.
At the dawn of the First Terran Exodus a competition was held to design a Colony Ship in which the internal colony would have a surface area of approximately 25 to 50 square kilometres and a maximum gravity or 1.5 times standard. This resulted in the development of both the Dawn and Sky Dancer Transport and Colony-class Carrier.
They were the first true vessels dedicated to transporting a large scale number of colonists to their new home worlds together with all the necessary equipment to produce a viable colony.
The internal agricultural land simulates a green agricultural landscape comprising schools / dwellings for families with infants, multiple rivers, a lake (for swimming and aquaculture), a small forest as well as an agricultural area for their future animal and agrarian needs. The land area also contains a colonist training area to educate colonists during their cruse duration to reach their new home world. The environment can also simulate any season and can also simulate rain and a normal stellar day / night rotation – light and dark period. The entire environment is designed to keep the psychological stress of the colonists and their animals to a minimum.
Ship History
During the First Exodus these transports served as a means to transport large number of populations to their designated colony worlds and have over the centuries served a variety of roles for both military and civilian operations.
Armament
The Colony Transports mounts only conventional weapons and aerospace fighters, allowing the vessel to defend itself from only lighter Aerospace fighters and Drop ships.
Engineering section
These ships would have a vast engineering section for the colonists to assist with the construction of the Colony.
Disembarking Procedure
The ship is to remain in orbit above the planet until all Colonists have disembarked and the colony has been built to ensure its viability – this could take anywhere up to two years.
Upon Arrival the Colonists disembark the construction team tasked with constructing the Colony
As as when Dwellings / infrastructure / support services have been created to adequately service a number of colonists they will slowly disembark the ship in waves for their new home until all infrastructure / dwellings for the colonists have been created and all waves have been transported to the surface.
Determining who is in which wave will be based upon your importance to the colony as the colony is slowly being established until its completion.
The same procedure is implemented for the herds of animals – creating safe paddocks – grass – support buildings etc. prior to their transport to the surface. Same procedure as well for all agricultural paddocks / Forestry / aquaculture / viticulture etc.
Note:
With the idea of one ship that can transport 20,000 to 40,000 Colonists this could very easily explain the rapid colonization of space by the human Race.
They will also explain Kerensky’s exodus – with only 100 plus of these vessels and the problem regarding the number of people that went with Kerensky to establish the Clans could be very easily explained.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/19 03:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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Colony ships would not be a one-time use vessel – with owning such a vessel you would want it to travel back and forth as many times as possible to get your people to the promised land
This is counter to the statement of having it in orbit around the colony.
So which is it?
However, by now all the planets would have an active colony on them and you are only coming into an established world not as a colonist but as a migrant.
So at what point does it change from a colony to a established world? And with this, are you suggesting there is no such thing as multiple colonies on a single world? What number of population or level of industry does it change?
The U.S. must not have been a colony of England, since the world was established before the americas were found.
There would not be a command circuit to form a colony. I don't know why one would think so. A military outpost, yes. Maybe the understanding of how colonies are created is missing here. You do not send the entire York County of England out to a new land at one time. But I guess history here is at fault, since it runs completely counter to what is suggested to form one on a new world.
Leaving supplies on the planet in advance of the colony Vs. bring it with them – conduct a Human Resources Risk Assessment – each colony will have their own idea about this. So you are going to start a colony on a world that already has people living on it? So pirates are found through their supplies sitting on world as they are out raiding others, at least according to this definition. And not all of them are large enough to leave a guard. Which according to a previous statement, the colonists would have such a guard.
You might want to look into the tube sleeping quarters that is currently in use in Japan. Basically, it is big enough to crawl into and sleep. Not much else. Much like bunking in a ship at sea. Shore leave is where you get to unwind.
I want to say grav decks have to be shut down before making a jump. Those are purely internal on warships. All jumpships stow their sails, which normally means rotating the ship some to assist. Then they start rotating again as they get done with the jump. All attached ships seem to have to be still, otherwise the jump is aborted. Might be the mass or calculations of the mass that prevents this.
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ghostrider
08/02/19 03:51 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Potemkin Warships was suggested to have carried the majority of the soldiers families when on the exodus. The dropships helped keep communities together during the trip. So you might get some ideas by looking up that as well.
The McKenna was close to the 2 mil ton mark, so figured it would be a good start. The length seemed excessive on the colony ship.
Though why would you cut it in half, then add in a jump drive, when the McKenna has a jump drive?
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Requiem
08/02/19 08:40 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: So which is it?
Colonists embarking – voyage - Colonists Disembarking – completed in waves as the colonies infrastructure slowly increased (in proportionality colonists to infrastructure ie. habitats etc.) over time until it is finally created (the overall viability of the colony), depending on the size and the complexity of the colony this could take considerable time – Ship returns to home port and collects an additional colony / re-stock etc
repeat ….. and then repeat again, until such a time as it is no longer commercially viable …..
QUOTE: So at what point does it change from a colony to a established world?
There is no one point when a colony changes into an independent nation …. However, good indicators would include the following ….
Population density;
World Industrialisation;
Government Oversight and Government Management– the complexity of regulations and laws – how the people are governed – how the laws are made;
Cartography of the world – Percentage surveyed and entered into the Lands Titles Office with Deeds – ie. what percentage of the world is recognized as being owned by an individual / corporation; and
Sociological factors – psychological perception of the world’s citizens as to their existing status colony / integrated community / independent world / part of a larger realm.
QUOTE: are you suggesting there is no such thing as multiple colonies on a single world?
First, This is dependent upon Terran Law – Large Multi-National Corporations form smaller corporations for a specific purpose –one such purpose could be the exploration of systems to determine the location of viable colony worlds – at this stage the wold is claimed for their Corporation (ie. as the discovered it they own the claim rights to the world).
(This would be something similar to claiming a section of a land during the Gold Rush era)
With the exploration ship returning to Terra – they would then lodge their findings with both a Government Oversight Department and with something similar to the stock exchange / auction house. Interested parties would then bid for the rights to colonize the world / mineral rights.
Price would be dependent upon Worlds Classification – how similar it is to earth it is – geology report – how far away from Terra it is etc. ( remember Caveat Emptor!)
The successful purchaser would then own the rights to the world (Certified by the Terran Government) – if more than one colony enterprise pooled their resources to purchase the world then yes you could have multiple colonies on one world. However if you had only one colony enterprise purchasing the world then only one colony should be on the world.
However, just as in the Gold Rush era, as is now, you could have claim jumpers or squatters – options are then limited – do nothing, you can ask them to leave, apply to the Terran Courts to force them to leave (High cost and time to get a ruling and then to get it enforced), or force them off with your military – though these actions would also be limited to the illegal colony having access to a way off the world (Jump / Drop Ship availability). (or if you are thoroughly evil - kill them all off)
QUOTE: You do not send the entire York County of England out to a new land at one time.
Social media / religion / common beliefs / common heritage – there just needs to be common element that brings people together to form a group with a similar aim – establishing a new life on a new world – then they need to find the means of financing such a venture.
QUOTE: Pirates
Yes, pirates could exist – however considering the limited number of ships I believe it would be a very unlucky colony that would have had to deal with them. However, this is why, as stated above, every colony would have their own security force and the armaments necessary to defend themselves.
QUOTE: Japanese capsule beds
On small warships – similar to a submarine that utilizes the principle of hot bunking – yes, I could see the merits – as long as they are not out to sea for a very long period of time.
However, on a colony ship that could be your home for many years – no, a capsule bed will cause psychological issues if used for a prolonged period of time – people need a reasonable amount of personal space. For a westerner, even for one night it is very difficult to get to sleep in one of these, as there is just no room to toss and turn, and the low ceiling is not very comforting.
QUOTE: grav decks have to be shut down before making a jump.
Please refer to my comment above on this topic.
QUOTE: Potemkin Warships
A division of infantry – usually consists of between 10,000 and 20,000 soldiers.
Five rings of five docking collars each – a total of twenty-five Drop Ships.
Single 95 meter gravity deck.
Interesting design but I believe it would become very cramped and having only one very small gravity deck for a massive population will pose a very large issue – especially for extended periods of time in space (eg. Kerensky’s exodus of over two years – did no one even consider muscle atrophy? Also what about growth retardation in children / infants due to a two year stint in almost constant zero g conditions?)
QUOTE: The length seemed excessive on the colony ship.
When considering personal space etc for 20,000 to 40,000 individuals and all the necessary equipment a colony may require initially to establish a viable colony – and then when you consider that you need a single gravity deck for twenty-five to fifty square kilometres to ensure a natural environment for the all the domesticated animals you will be taking with you – you will be quick to realise that yes to do this properly you would need a ship of this size.
I am under the opinion when the game developers considered the size of a ship and the number of individuals within it their mathematics is a long way off. I believe this is a more realistic size.
Also consider how you use barracks for soldiers and how you use apartments for families - big difference in size requirements.
If you believe I am wrong in my design calculations you could always correct the design for your home game if you wanted to include it. Maybe to something like four times the size of the Potemkin Warship with a very large cylinder built into the centre of the ship to accommodate / house all the domesticated animals / children / infants / recreational facilities for crew and colonists - promote natural muscle growth etc.
QUOTE: why would you cut it in half, then add in a jump drive, when the McKenna has a jump drive?
What I was attempting to create was a visual representation of what a possible colony ship would look like.
Take one very large ship cut it in half add a massive cylinder to the middle put it all back together – thus forming a visual representation of what a colony ship could possibly look like – and yes it would have a jump drive.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/02/19 09:03 AM)
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ghostrider
08/02/19 11:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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With the exploration ship returning to Terra – they would then lodge their findings with both a Government Oversight Department
So the government DOES have a major influence on colonies and colonists.
Interested parties would then bid for the rights to colonize the world / mineral rights.
This sounds more like the government searching worlds, they putting up the colonization rights to those that have money. Not someone setting out to find a new home and starting a new world. So it sounds like over half of any colonization is missing from the equation. Like the land rush, the only thing most did with the government was to file the claim. And this makes it more difficult for normal businesses to have 'hidden' assets. If it was actually set up like suggested, then there could be NO border disputes, as they would be specifically laid out, and claim jumping would be rampant. Not full out attacks.
however considering the limited number of ships I believe it would be a very unlucky colony that would have had to deal with them. So supplies put on a world would more likely be safe, instead of worrying someone else picked them up. So that argument is taken care of.
The tube housing was to show the numbers could fit into the habitate, though it would not be an easy or pleasant experience. I will definitely agree, the initial numbers for the game was probably off by a bit. Once the game got bigger, then they started trying to get better numbers that fit.
But you could still do it, as most colonists were willing to suffer some discomfort, in order to start in a new land. This concept for the tube is more for holding everyone, with even a few dozen dropships being used to allow people some time away from the tubes, much like R&R. Rotation of families, just to make sure that is clear.
I want to say the SLDF exodus sent people down with the resource gathering units to worlds on their trips, to allow some relief from the cabin sickness concept.
Though I want to say the gravdecks negated a lot of the normal term issues from being in space. The gravity should counter the effects or slow it down dramatically.
The Potemkin suggestion wasn't to use it, but to possible get a few ideas on how to refine this idea, much like the McKenna seemed to have.
But with this, the armor might be an issue, as ships this large need far more armor to cover it and still at a reduced return per ton. Simple mishaps may well take out the ship if it only has 2 or 3 points in each section. Much like the issue with a coolant truck, or jumpships. This is very true if they have to defend themselves.
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Requiem
08/02/19 07:26 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: So the government DOES have a major influence on colonies and colonists.
No the Government does not have a major influence upon a colony and its colonists as you are alluding to here. The Government Department is acting as an oversight position similar to the Lands Titles Office – they are recognising incoming Corporations Claims as to new worlds – Legislation would require a mountain of paperwork to be filed to verify the Claim so that it is all on the ‘up-and-up’ – and provides evidence if they lied so that they can be sued for damages.
The Government Department also recognises the legal purchases of the claim – thus providing for a legal deed to the planet – and who the colonists are so that there is no double claiming of worlds as it were.
QUOTE: Interested parties would then bid for the rights to colonize the world / mineral rights.
The Government have a duty of care to ensure the viability / survivability of any future colony. As such any potential future colonists must meet a threshold test before it can be allowed to bid for a world.
Threshold test – Money – Number of / Qualifications of people involved – access to future resources – Plans for the future.
i.e. the colonists must be able to prove they can create a viable colony.
Once the colony has been established – migration to the colony would be reduced to gaining legal access from the owners (Visa) and the money / ship availability to get you to this world.
This is done so that none of the projected colonies / colonists go missing – this is an attempt to be as professional as possible as to the future exploration of mankind. We are not in the 1800’s anymore technology and the rule of law must take precedence.
It is only in the future when with the idea of realms of worlds joining together to form an alliance does the real trouble start – when people put borders up and the idea of an us and them mentality originate.
QUOTE: Pirates / Claim Jumpers
Yes there is a possibility that people (pirates / claim jumpers) could attempt to invade a colony world with the aim of subjugating the population / taking their claim by force. The idea however that it is rampant if a little far-fetched – would be a very rare occurrence.
QUOTE: Steerage Compartment
If you have people coming together to form a colony consider the costs involved by each person – we have come a long way away from the idea of first, second and third class individuals as well as the idea of steerage class passengers. These ships can have different levels of accommodation but there needs to a minimum – look at the modern cruise liners as an example of what the internal layout would be similar to.
Yes, I agree there may be some discomfort – however going to the extent of having capsule beds within the ship itself is going a little far – within the Drop ships not a problem.
QUOTE: Kerensky’s SLDF exodus
Yes they did send people out to gather resources – water being a major one. However the concept that many people could get off and stretch their legs is taking it a bit too far. Remember as the exodus dragged on he ended up having multiple mutinies on his hand, so once the people got off – good luck in forcing them back on!
The idea that you could take millions of people out into deep space with no real destination in mind – leaving it to luck as it were – is very ill-conceived, especially from a military commander who must adhere to logic, planning and organisation requirements when it comes to war.
I believe Kerensky had a mental breakdown whilst on Terra with the House Lords and the people were following him due to his past charisma as a leader. If anyone had really thought the issue he was proposing through they would have quickly realised how stupid the idea really was – Legally his subordinates should have put him up on a charge of dereliction of duty / cowardice in the face of the enemy for proposing such an action, however they were blinded by the myth they had created around him – succumbed to their own propaganda as it were like so many doomed empires in the past.
Reality had no longer been seen from that day forward with the SLDF personnel - that is until they mutinied.
If he was no longer fit to command the SLDF he should have stepped down – retired or put a bullet in his head.
QUOTE: Armour
The concept of armour to normal hull plating
Armour is used on ships that will be in combat – heavier – take more punishment.
The idea that a colony ship will be going into combat is a little bit unrealistic – they are civilian not military – the armour is there to protect the more sensitive areas of the ship from the unknown – it is not there to stop a weapon strike.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/02/19 07:35 PM)
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ghostrider
08/03/19 03:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still missing a major point. The government does have it's hands in colonizing. At the very least, they are trying to make sure criminals and antagonists don't get off their world. And with them 'selling' the rights to a world? A duck is a duck.
The Government have a duty of care to ensure the viability / survivability of any future colony. Since when? Only government sponsored colonies have anything like this. Most are just someone goes out and claims some land, and hopes when it is found, they have the claim locked up. Normally with weapons.
The rule of law? What law? The one that people have to ask who is the government to say they own the world someone is settling on? Except for might makes right, there is no reason why a government could say you can't settle here.
This would actually make the government a claim jumper, if they were not the ones to scout the world, then SEND the colonists in.
Not having armor on a ship that is going into the unknown, hell, even the known it foolish. A simple asteroid or comet hitting the ship is possible. And why bother with weapons, as you can not defend against a weak assault without the armor. All jumpships have armor on them. It isn't that much, but then the fluff itself says they do so just incase of an accident. A dropship hitting the ship harder then it should for instance.
As for the exodus, it was done to make the story move along. As the initial Hemegony had Dieron in it, that would have removed the District capital if they hadn't. That would have really screwed up the DC, and that isn't saying anything about the other houses. I really don't think Steiner would have gotten Defiance had they stayed.
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Requiem
08/03/19 05:13 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: The government does have it's hands in colonizing.
Yes, though only within the role as a bureaucratic oversight organisation.
QUOTE: At the very least, they are trying to make sure criminals and antagonists don't get off their world.
True. However when it comes to smuggling people can be bribed or false identities can be established / databases can be manipulated.
Even in the far future I would make the assumption where there is a will (Money and lots of it!) there is a way.
QUOTE: And with them 'selling' the rights to a world?
The stock exchange / auction house as noted above refers to a third party clearing house – it does not have any links to the government other than to provide information as to whom claims have been processed for their records – ie. who currently holds the claim and who bought the claim so that their records can be updated.
QUOTE: A duck is a duck.
Sorry you have lost me with this – I do not understand how that type of government relates to this situation. Can you please elucidate?
QUOTE: The Government have a duty of care to ensure the viability / survivability of any future colony. Since when?
Look at current society – how many different kinds or licences are issued in todays society and how do you obtain these licences, better yet why must you have a license – not only is it a revenue raiser it is also there to ensure a level of professionalism / knowledge / safety for the community. I am just extrapolating today’s requirements in all fields of endeavours – Laws / Codes of Conduct / Professional Standards / Policies and Procedures and extrapolating it into the future where you could say there will an entry requirement / licence for nearly all fields of employment based upon knowledge and competence performing the job (obtained as a junior under a master).
In addition consider the political backlash if a government allowed a colony of 20,000 – 40,000 people be established to only find out a few years later they all died. And their deaths could have been prevented if the government had instituted mandatory oversight.
Such a situation could bring down the government – No, it would be better to have the laws in place first, ensure a level of due diligence and if they did all die at least the government could say they did all they could do to save them. No blame could be placed upon the current government administration.
In addition – How do you get out of the Terran System when the Government controls all of this space with their Navy and they would also have some control mechanism upon all space docs who construct colony vessels and supply them with all their supplies to construct the colony?
QUOTE: Most are just someone goes out and claims some land, and hopes when it is found, they have the claim locked up. Normally with weapons.
This is something from the 1800’s not the era of the First Great Exodus of mankind into the great unknown.
However, I will say this attitude could be applied to either …..
In the distant future post fall of the First Star League (maybe even earlier);
OR/- my Alt. Universe – when the belligerent Clans have been forcibly evicted from the IS, Katherine declares herself First Archon Princess of the FC and the dawn of the Victor / Omika Empire is beginning to be established. Such a manner of obtaining and holding claims upon these worlds within the Deep Periphery can be considered to be a viable historical situation by any individual / company / state with the weapons to take it and the ability to hold onto it.
QUOTE: there is no reason why a government could say you can't settle here.
At the dawn of the First Great Exodus – the Terran Government’s Navy and Army gave them the right to say who can settle where.
It is only in the far future when ships are more common can you say people not only have the ability they also have the weapons to hold onto their colony.
QUOTE: This would actually make the government a claim jumper.
In the subsequent years after the colony has become an established viable colony a far worse fate will befall all of the human colonies.
This will be in an era when Jump ships are more prevalent travel between stars is easier and safer (comfortable) – the Terran Government would unleash something far worse than that of a claim jumper ….. they would dispatch a military governor, together with a retinue of military and an official of the taxation department!
Remember sooner or later the the taxman cometh ….. they don’t need to be a claim jumper when taxation revenue is all they really want.
QUOTE: Armour
How much armour is on a Jump Ship? So just increase it so that you have a comparable amount.
Suggested amount?
QUOTE: Exodus - Make the story move along.
And if it is not believable, suspend belief like so many other times within the Canon history?
The entire IS history would require a major paradigm shift if the Exodus were never to occur – I have considered it – the initial steps are easy to consider but there on it is wide open to interpretation ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/19 01:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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No the Government does not have a major influence upon a colony and its colonists as you are alluding to here. The Government Department is acting as an oversight position similar to the Lands Titles Office – they are recognising incoming Corporations Claims as to new worlds – Legislation would require a mountain of paperwork to be filed to verify the Claim so that it is all on the ‘up-and-up’ – and provides evidence if they lied so that they can be sued for damages.
The Government Department also recognises the legal purchases of the claim – thus providing for a legal deed to the planet – and who the colonists are so that there is no double claiming of worlds as it were.
In addition consider the political backlash if a government allowed a colony of 20,000 – 40,000 people be established to only find out a few years later they all died. And their deaths could have been prevented if the government had instituted mandatory oversight
Such a situation could bring down the government – No, it would be better to have the laws in place first, ensure a level of due diligence and if they did all die at least the government could say they did all they could do to save them. No blame could be placed upon the current government administration.
In addition – How do you get out of the Terran System when the Government controls all of this space with their Navy and they would also have some control mechanism upon all space docs who construct colony vessels and supply them with all their supplies to construct the colony?
You just showed the government has almost absolute control over colonizing worlds.
But in canon, the initial colonizing effort did NOT have naval assets with them. Only after one of the jumpships misjumped were they required to have them.
You don't see that the colonists settled where they wanted to? The government coming in and taking over is where the issues start.
This basically says you do not own anything until you give the government it wants, and with this, they can move ownership to themselves, their businesses, or friends. In other words, the only ones doing exploring or colonizing would be the government at this point. Yet they didn't have any claims to the world or region before someone got there. The paradox is amazing, yet not recognized?
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ghostrider
08/05/19 01:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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With this way of thinking, the government should know every settlement formed on every world. Yet they didn't.
The duck is a duck statement comes from the government, which according to you, has no control over colonies, yet they can sell them to the highest bidder. require full registration, military personnel stationed there, as well as escort. The government controls the entire process. You explained that quite well if you reread your last 2 post. There is an illusion of freedom in this, yet in the end, the politicians have the final say in all of this.
So how is this not governmentally controlled?
But in response to the initial question.
No. There is no reason for new rules to deal with colonization.
The ship is too expensive to build, and completely unnecessary. Multiple dropships can and were used to do so, and cover the job well. And the plus side... the dropships can be reconfigured to be used for other things. A lot less costly then the large ship.
Now a kicker. The idea that the colony ship should stay around the planet, as well as that same one being used to move more shows a complete contradiction to logic here. Pick one and stick with it.
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Requiem
08/05/19 11:25 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: You just showed the government has almost absolute control over colonizing worlds.
Oversight control does not equate to absolute control.
Absolute control relates to who can and can’t go – oversight is just that the colonists put forward their lists of people – The Government would then put forward recommendations as to additional personnel requirements – engineers, doctors etc.
Absolute control would also infer control over the colony – a military governor and his /her retinue of guards to act as the law for the colony. This is where a Totalitarian government would demand to have this person appointed to represent their requirements, and yet in this scenario there is no governor to be seen – thus the duck analogy does not hold water.
QUOTE: The government coming in and taking over is where the issues start.
After many years of independent control by the colonists the Terran Government (together with their Navy and Marines) decide to send out the tax collectors and a military governor – once they have the Navy to do so – this is where I believe the trouble will start.
QUOTE: This basically says you do not own anything until you give the government it wants, and with this, they can move ownership to themselves, their businesses, or friends.
Sorry, no – as stated above the government recognises the transfer in the claim from one party to another via a third party clearing house. They are just establishing records of that transfer and taking their taxation amount on the transfer amount.
QUOTE: With this way of thinking, the government should know every settlement formed on every world. Yet they didn't.
Yes, the government should know the location of every colony.
However for what-ever reason people move on / colonies fracture over time / colonies create more colonies / pirates create colonies etc So that the Terran Government does not know the location of these off shoot colonies.
QUOTE: he ship is too expensive to build, and completely unnecessary.
Livestock – transporting within a cage for multiple years? again recommend you look at live transport images - the way I am suggesting is the only humane way of doing it.
There is no class of drop ship that is designed for large number of herd animals surviving over a period of time of up to 2 years as evidenced within the Kerensky Exodus or before that.
Muscle atrophy of the Colonists – within a Jump ship / Drop ship there are no grav decks – and the use of gravity burns – where is all the fuel stored – the issue of children / the issue of infants have not been addressed.
Numbers – there is no way you can say there are enough Jump ships / drop ships to ensure an adequate number of colonists from Terra to all the surrounding worlds without introducing the concept of a ship that is pre designed to transport all people / animals (in large numbers) and all their colony equipment in one hit to establish a viable colony.
Yes, they are expensive but the people would demand no less – refer to Kennedy stating they would put a man on the moon – similar to this.
QUOTE: The idea that the colony ship should stay around the planet, as well as that same one being used to move more shows a complete contradiction to logic here. Pick one and stick with it.
The ship transports the colony to the new world
The ship stays in orbit whilst the colony is being built
Once built it returns to Terra to collect new colonists
The ship transports the new colonists to a new world
The ship stays in orbit whilst the new colony is being built
Once built it returns to Terra to collect even newer colonists
Problem?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 03:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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oversight is just that the colonists put forward their lists of people – The Government would then put forward recommendations as to additional personnel requirements
Oversight allows them to pick who can go and who can't. They pick the healthy, so any one that isn't, doesn't go. Simple accusations of a crime will cause people to be pulled out, even if it was a false claim.
And appointing people? Really? You don't think that would be someone in the family or a friend?
transporting within a cage for multiple years?
With the exception of the exodus, where are you getting years from?
The area between the IS and the clans homeworlds isn't that long. Less then a single year.
Now if you are sending something from the TC thru the FS/Terra/LC, then yes years, if you don't stop or by the animals closer to the place you are going.
the government recognises the transfer in the claim from one party to another via a third party clearing house.
Again. This means the government says if you can have it or not.
I wonder if you really know what colonization really is. A group of people, most not sponsored, go out and put down a homestead where ever. Most are trying to get away from the government, or at least part of it. It is not the huge transplant of a city the size of LA or NYC, but small groups. Some started at less then 100. Possible even less.
What you are proposing, seems to be a massive effort by the states, to create a realm outside of the home front. The Hemegony lost control over the people the left/fled the government there. It was not some huge 20,000 population going to one world. They scattered to several worlds.
There is no class of drop ship that is designed for large number of herd animals surviving over a period of time of up to 2 years as evidenced within the Kerensky Exodus or before that.
Modifying some to do the job would be why. Much like there is no mech bays on a Mule dropship, yet units make them. Same with removing the fighter bays on a Leopard, and putting in an additional bay or two.
the issue of children / the issue of infants have not been addressed.
You said it yourself. The screening process would resolve this. The only issue that might happen, is pregnancy on the trip there. And as you said, bring a fuel tanker with you, or maybe store some on the ships. The dropships need enough to get to the world and back to the jumpship, if they aren't being stripped to start the colony. And what do you know. Jumpships have tanks that they keep fuel in, as they don't run out a lot.
there is no way you can say there are enough Jump ships / drop ships to ensure an adequate number of colonists from Terra to all the surrounding worlds without introducing the concept of a ship that is pre designed to transport all people / animals (in large numbers) and all their colony equipment in one hit to establish a viable colony.
Yet you suggest that there are an abundance of ships to take on the clans and invade their home world. Now there isn't enough to colonize worlds?
So which is it?
And the excuse comes back to haunt you. There is no solid number of ships written down.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 01:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another point that came to mind.
You want to keep some sort of influx to the colony going, as supplies are going to be use, and accidents do happen.
A part for a water purifier may go bad, but you didn't bring a replacement for it.
With this, you can constantly be bringing in more people with said supplies. Even if it is only one or two people.
As said before. A rewrite is not needed. Use what is there. It might actually follow how colonies are done. Small groups looking for a new life.
And if the houses had the ability to just make a dozen worlds set up with an awesome economy, why didn't the rebuild or make new ones in their own territories? This logic is hard to overcome.
Religions, in general, are not going to be sending people out from civilized worlds. That removes their ability to bring in more people to tithe to the churches, as well as cause the leaders the discomfort of not having their luxuries on hand. The few that might, would be small, and unable to do more then book passage on other ships heading in the direction they want to go, the rent a ship to head out, if there is no other option.
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Requiem
08/06/19 09:46 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Oversight allows them to pick who can go and who can't.
Please re-read – Govt. officials stating the party needs more Doctors does not mean they must take a certain “Party Official Dr.” with them. The Colonists still have the final say as who they want on their team.
If the Government had the final say – they would just choose from their list, there would be a military governor as well as a state military unit going with the Govt. Backed Colony – the space explorers who find the viable worlds they would also have to work for the Govt. and not a large corporation – I have not gone full Totalitarian Government at this stage.
QUOTE: transporting within a cage for multiple years?
First Exodus – simple mathematics – how long would it take to supply a colony vessel – Months? – plus there is the Jump distance / recharge time at each point and in addition to this the time spent in space whilst the colony is being constructed – so yes years!
Remember the path the Exodus fleet took to what would become known as the clan home worlds is not the same path the Clans took to invade the IS – in the canon it was what close to / over 2 years? So yes the medical issues such as muscle atrophy would have been explained and yet were completely overlooked once more.
QUOTE: The government recognises the transfer in the claim from one party to another via a third party clearing house. Again. This means the government says if you can have it or not.
When purchasing your home does the government say you can have it or not? (Bank can but the government can’t). They just recognise the transfer of the title and the exchange of all the cheques – I have sat in on one of these and it is just all the relevant people sitting at a table exchanging documents / cheques until everyone is happy – so again no the government doesn’t have a person in the room controlling the purchase.
QUOTE: Some started at less then 100. Possible even less.
Cost – in the time of sailing ships 100 people colony vessels were common.
However when you are discussing transplanting colonists to another world I would like to ask how many people make a colony viable from a cost analysis projection – The costs would require a very large and very well-funded Colony to be considered viable from a cost benefit analysis – giving it due consideration 20,000 to 40,000 people at a single move could be considered a viable amount from a cost analysis. However I cannot see the same from a 100 people venture in the far future.
The only limiting factor for a 100 person colony is technology – if the ships being constructed were of a size that only 100 people at a go could go. Then there is the issue of the number of colonies – if you were transporting only 100 people at a go it would take far longer to establish colonies on all the IS worlds than projected in the canon – a more realistic figure would be 500 plus years just to colonise the IS from the first exodus.
The only rational thought is large people movers and many off them to colonize the entire of the IS in approximately 200 years.
Also what I am suggesting here is not one or two colony ships establishing a few colonies on a few worlds – what I am suggesting is a major investment by the people and the corporations of Terra to invest in Colony expansion within a short period of time – Necessitating a massive building project at the same time to manufacture these ships in space – requiring a massive support base(s) on the Luna and Mars Surfaces – thus they are producing many vessels each year and as time progresses the size of these shipyards increases and the number of ships increases – Thus by the end of the first Century I would say a few thousand ships now exist and move between the stars as either Colonist Vessels / Logistic Transport / Cruise Liners.
QUOTE: There is no class of drop ship that is designed for large number of herd animals surviving over a period of time ….. Modifying some to do the job would be why.
Consider a Mule Dropship – what would the area be if you converted all the lower decks that were used for cargo into a hydroponics bay for grass for livestock animals (as we can all say pens do not work) – Could you say you would have even one square kilometre of grass for the animals? – How about if we convert it to football fields (soccer) say six to nine as a realistic estimation for a Mule? How many animals – Cattle / sheep / pigs / ducks etc – could you realistically put on these fields? And then remember these are zero g for most of the time when not conducting a gravity burn – thus they must be held in a pen whilst not in a gravity burn – and how long would this be? Muscle atrophy plus other problems would become evident over a long time within a dropship .
Plus there is also the issue of confined space – is an animal comes down sick the entire dropships complement of animals will in all probability come down sick
Sorry but unless there is a vast number of mules and they have a permanent internal gravity deck that have been established for animal transport alone I cannot see how it can actually work to transport a vast number of animals to establish a viable herd numbers upon a new colony.
QUOTE: T he issue of children / the issue of infants have not been addressed. You said it yourself. The screening process would resolve this. The only issue that might happen, is pregnancy on the trip there
Sorry again no, Colonies equals families which equals children!
Children need to live in an almost continuous gravity environment whist they are growing – if you they will have growth defects in size and muscle mass by the time they reach the colony and a somewhat normal gravity.
QUOTE: Jumpships have tanks that they keep fuel in, as they don't run out a lot.
Contingency plan – a what if – how many expeditions of this size are allowed to commence without having contingencies upon contingencies established – an example - How many did Apollo 11 have?
QUOTE: Yet you suggest that there are an abundance of ships to take on the clans and invade their home world. Now there isn't enough to colonize worlds? So which is it?
The Initial Exodus was what 1,000 years before the Clans? So apples and oranges.
As for my future Alt. Universe History – Omika / Victor Empire post kicking out all belligerent Clans from the IS – Not only would normal Jump Ships / Drop Ships be used for colonization – there would still be ex colony ships which could be used – example White Swan has some that they use as cruise liners they could very easily rent them out once again to transport a new wave of colonists into the Deep Periphery.
Also at this stage if Warships are being remade I do not see the problem with new commercial colony vessels being manufactured at the same time – why not start re-building new commercial dock yards? How many new ‘Mech / vechicle / power armour / aerospace production facilities were built at this time? I cannot see why new dock yards are also not being built at the same time – a renaissance of technology has occurred so why not spread it to ALL areas with the IS?
Yes there are no solid number written down – but in your own Alt Universe the point becomes irrelevant.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 10:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Colonists still have the final say as who they want on their team. Only from the list the government will allow. Not saying they would say only, but they would stop those they did not want leaving. Smuggling is possible, but you would risk losing your supplies for this?
And with requiring military escorts, you honestly think the colony would not have a military 'advisor' on world?
First Exodus – simple mathematics – how long would it take to supply a colony vessel – Months? – plus there is the Jump distance / recharge time at each point and in addition to this the time spent in space whilst the colony is being constructed – so yes years! So every colony is going from Terra to the clan home worlds? And you forgot to show the part of that how long question with the initial part of it. EXCEPT THE EXODUS. But then this would also assume the SLDF naval command was completely stupid, and didn't have ships heading for a spot to rendezvous with fleet heading out. Or there were not any stockpiles along their path. How many 'forgotten' caches are there?
Get off the numbers. Only a few colonies were started off with a cost/production mindset. Most were just started by those trying to find a better life. The explosion from Terra was not sponsored by the Hegemony. They were worried they would lose control, and tried to stem the flow out of it. The Hegemony government had more control then most nations today. It was their monopoly of the sky and even resources that allowed this. Part of why people wanted out. Maybe that is where you need to start. Why people left. Maybe then, it might be seen why colonies were not complete city transplants. Well other then time limits on the 'realm' for the alt.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 11:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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The only rational thought is large people movers and many off them to colonize the entire of the IS in approximately 200 years.
It is no where near the only rational thought. It is opposite of such thinking.
Growing a colony is where it is at, not the founding of them. And ANYONE who finances such and a deal would very much retain control to it. But this set up in NOT a colony, but a specific task, such as making an outpost.
However when you are discussing transplanting colonists to another world I would like to ask how many people make a colony viable from a cost analysis projection. How many colonies would never be cost effective? How many would even care, as long as they are surviving on the world, away from the thumb of others? Pure costs does not create, nor sustain a colony. As soon as it isn't effective anymore, they would drop said society without much warning. You can always find more people willing to go out, and not have to pay to move the ones there off world. But that is real world actions here. The future is not going to change this.
And for the record. The Hegemony did NOT fund the expansion past it's border. A few outposts or mining ventures being the extremely rare exception. The banks would not risk it, unless they knew what was there. Religion would be keen to stay out of it, unless they needed to flee in a hurry. And yet, all of this were small groups. Immigration is more of what you are looking at, not starting colonies. And that is still not something to re-write the rules to make a huge ship. They would use what is there.
Necessitating a massive building project at the same time to manufacture these ships in space – requiring a massive support base(s) on the Luna and Mars Surface. So these colonies would have tens of thousands sent there to start making it? That is exactly what you are hinting at.
No. A few hundred might be too many, considering needing air, water, food and such, which meant space on a dropship or continuous resupplies. It was be stupid to try the main influx before anything was built. This might be a fiction game, but trying to suggest real life would be the fantasy is backwards.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 11:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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The only rational thought is large people movers and many off them to colonize the entire of the IS in approximately 200 years.
Stop right there. This statement is actually the complete opposite of reality.
Get the idea that moving tens of thousands of people in a one trip out of your mind. Or maybe you should look at the RTCs ability to move their entire unit in one shot. The infantry being the main focus. Thousands of soldiers are moved without the need for a larger then warship ship. But wait. There are cargo ships that would go with them to carry the things needed to start. But again. Small numbers to start it is the better way to go. Growing the colony is what is needed.
And multiple worlds were being colonized at once. By normal dropships.
How many animals – Cattle / sheep / pigs / ducks etc – could you realistically put on these fields? How many do you need? Shipping meat has been done for ages, and yet now it has to be locally grown? A small number of people starting the building process could bring a few in and start breeding them. Bringing in more to keep the genetics going would be required for a while, but then that is a fact no matter how you do this. It is also another reason for not having more then even a couple hundred to start building the support needed.
Sorry again no, Colonies equals families which equals children! The initial settlement wouldn't have them. They would come in later as the colony became self sustaining. And that could very well be one system at a time. Planetfall until the next supply run, then rest at the next habitable system.
The Initial Exodus was what 1,000 years before the Clans? So apples and oranges.
I love this one. But you are right. There were far more ships in the Exodus time then in the IS during the clan invasion. And by suggesting the naval quartermaster was completely incompetent as they did not have supplies in route to meet the force before it left the IS, shows how little you know of logistics. This is not including all those caches and such scattered around they could draw from on their way out. But then, that would require looking beyond saying canon is wrong, as it doesn't fit your vision.
Yes there are no solid number written down – but in your own Alt Universe the point becomes irrelevant.
And again. Saying canon is wrong, then saying your alt show this is where a lot of this problem is coming from. If you want to say canon is screwed up, do so without needing changes so the alt makes sense. Otherwise, only talk about the alt.
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Requiem
08/07/19 01:34 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: you honestly think the colony would not have a military 'advisor' on world?
To start off with I believe it would be a political decision as to how the people of Terra view the situation – so no, there are no military advisors to start off with because of politics.
QUOTE: So every colony is going from Terra to the clan home worlds?
No, privately owned ships (such as those owned by White Swan) will remain in the IS plus others – many will go with Kerensky but not all.
QUOTE: So every colony is going from Terra to the clan home worlds?
Supply a colony ships – one month to four months maximum
Travel time to the new colony world – initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months
Construction of a colony – Depending upon its complexity and the materials used 18 to 36 months would not be unthinkable to establish the viable colony.
QUOTE: Only a few colonies were started off with a cost/production mindset.
Sorry I disagree …. All of them would have had a cost/production mindset – Logistics and Accountancy would demand nothing else.
Idealistic Dreams on go so far, it is with strong economic data and a sound backer those dreams can become a reality.
QUOTE: Growing a colony is where it is at, not the founding of them.
Rational thought – if you can grow at 20,000 to 40,000 people at a time via one colony ship does this not demonstrate a successful long tem colony plan? Consider the High Rate of Growth multiple visits from a single colony ship would pose to a colony.
A colonies government changes over time – a council of individuals to something more structured such as a parliament.
QUOTE: This might be a fiction game, but trying to suggest real life would be the fantasy is backwards.
Depression – President Roosevelt – between 1933 to 1936 – Economic and financial reform programs included public works projects – have a look at all the New Deal Projects.
So yes it can be done.
QUOTE: Stop right there. This statement is actually the complete opposite of reality.
Comparing the transportation of a military unit to that of civilian colony – again apples and oranges – consider how a military unit moves with the minimum of supplies to that of a civilian where they move with the maximum of supplies – a civilian will be taking far more equipment as well as personal goods that a military man would ever be allowed to take (one sea chest) Vs. One Sea Container (That is on a container ship) remember a civilian will be taking all of their personal effects – look at how much is moved when you move house – this is how much each family would want to take with them to the new colony.
QUOTE: Animal breeding
Animal breeding to a viable amount to service a colony you are looking at decades again not a few years via utilizing my colony ship.
QUOTE: The initial settlement wouldn't have them. (Children)
Disagree … what are the families going to do leave them on Terra for 10 years until they can come? Sorry but I cannot see the validity in this statement.
QUOTE: And by suggesting the naval quartermaster was completely incompetent as they did not have supplies in route to meet the force before it left the IS, shows how little you know of logistics.
Really???? …… taking advantage of logistics and logistics routes …….. so that you can cripple their advance ……
QUOTE: If you want to say canon is screwed up, do so without needing changes so the alt makes sense. Otherwise, only talk about the alt.
Examples / comparisons are required so that I can put my point forward.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 01:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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Travel time to the new colony world – initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months
So there is no resupply areas closer to the colonizing areas? That is plain stupid. A resupply base is required to keep a steady flow of goods for the colonists to buy. Just accidents alone would make this profitable. Something like a FOB for the military.
No, privately owned ships (such as those owned by White Swan) will remain in the IS plus others – many will go with Kerensky but not all.
So this entire post was about the alt, not a real question on the canon lines. This is almost consistent. Privately owned ships DO rent out to those going into the periphery. It costs more, but it is done. Even renting one in the periphery realms is possible.
All of them would have had a cost/production mindset – Logistics and Accountancy would demand nothing else.
So again. the government would be controlling it all?
And no. Unless sponsored by the government or banks, the profit mindset wasn't really there. It was independent groups doing most of the colonization. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Get off the accountant aspect of this, and you might see the fault in that line of thinking.
Rational thought – if you can grow at 20,000 to 40,000 people at a time via one colony ship does this not demonstrate a successful long tem colony plan
Not at all. You are risking that many on something that may well fail because of a natural disaster or crop failure. And setting up to house and feed them is an issue.
Comparing the transportation of a military unit to that of civilian colony – again apples and oranges – consider how a military unit moves with the minimum of supplies to that of a civilian where they move with the maximum of supplies
Individually this may be true, but the infantry transports carry more in the way of food, ammunition and other things, which would counter the extra personal things. And with moving things, the colonist would be taking only the bare minimum, if sponsored. The rest would be shipped with the logistics coming in. If going out on their own, then they would have what ever was important, and start again. Paying for space is the issue.
Really???? …… taking advantage of logistics and logistics routes …….. so that you can cripple their advance ……
The exodus Kerensky took. Are you not reading the whole statement? No one knew he was leaving, so crippling their advance wouldn't be done. Hell, it wasn't done.
Examples / comparisons are required so that I can put my point forward.
This is not a point like you want to make it out. This is a nagging on canon because you can't do what you want to. Well following the canon rules. Either keep it all canon or all alt. This whole thread would have been a lot shorter if you had.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 01:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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Now. The initial landing of the colony wouldn't have children with them, for the most part, as it would be too dangerous for them.
Waiting 10 years is garbage. They can come in a few months, once the adults get shelter and such up and running. And the children don't need to make the trip at one time.
Trading posts would be set up to sell items to anyone going out. This bs of traveling years isn't going to work.
Your cost idea would only come to making a market for selling good to those moving further out.
And no one, and get this right, besides the exodus, takes years to get to their destination for creating a colony.
Exploring would. And that doesn't have the equipment for colonizing, nor would it have children that aren't apprentices for the crew.
300 light years out, would take about 10 weeks. So 2 1/2 months, not 2 years. Even the expansion of the Hegemony had certain points that weren't 2 years out. They set up staging areas for colonizing near by areas.
Other then trying to argue, I don't see how this isn't sinking in.
Canon will not fulfil your vision of your alt. Stop trying to suggest changes as most canon players don't want such things.
And they would produce warships that would be used to kill others. A full mobile military base is a very nasty thing to have in a system. Now add the dropships, like Vengeances and assault dropships, and what do you know. A defensive base with the ability to wipe out anyone in the system. And that isn't including the weapons on the ship itself.
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Requiem
08/07/19 04:45 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: So there is no resupply areas closer to the colonizing areas?
Initial Exodus – How can there be another resupply base when they do not even exist?
Approx. 100 years into the Initial Exodus this may be considered – However, how many Colony worlds have the infrastructure to even contemplate building resupply goods? Quality Control of unforeseen goods as ‘Caveat Emptor’ comes to mind here – Risk Aversion theory – can you trust another colony to have the goods you need whereas a Terran Firm can have them and you can view the quality of them before you leave. If a resupply base was to established I believe it would be for supplemental purposes only - water stocks – food – animals (in the event part of the herd had to be destroyed due to a disease).
QUOTE: So again. the government would be controlling it all?
Does the government control the manufacture of a supertanker, the purchase of a a fleet of new commercial airline aircraft?
Sorry but financing cannot be removed from the equation – have any new projects ever not considered how much it is going to cost?
QUOTE: Not at all. You are risking that many on something that may well fail because of a natural disaster or crop failure. And setting up to house and feed them is an issue.
How many countries have national census so that they can adequately plan for the future requirements of their citizens by taking into account projected increases in population.
I believe the colonists would do the same – they would prepare for any future developments as best they can.
Situations that are beyond their control are beyond their control.
QUOTE: infantry transports carry more in the way of food, ammunition and other things, which would counter the extra personal things.
Consider the modern cruise liner industry for food – way way above anything the military would take – in Vino Veritas!
QUOTE: the colonist would be taking only the bare minimum, if sponsored.
Sorry but I disagree, Risk Theory again – you must have everything with you that you will need in the future – what will you do if this second ship with all the logistics never arrives? Pack up and go home because the colony does not have the resources to survive for a prolonged duration of time?
The ship I have designed will have the space for everything – this is one of its drawcards in that the colonists and everything they will need are all on the same ship travelling together – risk minimised – costs minimised as you do not have to rent a second ship – all in one cost allows for greater cost minimisation by the future colonists.
QUOTE: The exodus Kerensky took. Are you not reading the whole statement? No one knew he was leaving, so crippling their advance wouldn't be done. Hell, it wasn't done.
I thought you were discussing the Clan Invasion of the IS not Kerensky – so yes crippling the clans by eliminating their logistics should be considered.
QUOTE: The initial landing of the colony wouldn't have children with them, for the most part, as it would be too dangerous for them.
And yet I have a colony ship in orbit for the next 18-36 months to allow the construction team to manufacture a viable colony – buildings, dwellings, roads, infrastructure etc
And once the colony has been established and is ready to live in at the end of the 18-36 months is it not possible to consider the colony as safe as it is going to get – thus the children can then come down? Thus a second ship bring the children from Terra in a couple of months is again a futile expense as well as putting an unnecessary stain upon the children – living with their parents on the same colony ship makes more sense and will keep the children happy and well adjusted.
QUOTE: Trading posts
Sometime beyond the Initial Exodus I would consider the establishment of more permanent trading posts – once supply / trading fleets become more common within the IS.
Where you get your goods depends upon when you started your voyage (which age you are in – what year is it?) which planet you started from, your route to your destination, and your destination itself.
QUOTE: 300 light years out, would take about 10 weeks. So 2 1/2 months, not 2 years. Even the expansion of the Hegemony had certain points that weren't 2 years out.
Extract from above –
Supply a colony ships – one month to four months maximum
Travel time to the new colony world – initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months
Construction of a colony – Depending upon its complexity and the materials used 18 to 36 months would not be unthinkable to establish the viable colony.
Travel time to the new colony world - “initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months”.
QUOTE: A full mobile military base is a very nasty thing to have in a system.
Correct, this is the logical extension of a colony vessel – once militarised they would become a mobile base from which to launch a planetary invasion from – they would become the Command in Control Flagship surrounded by smaller warships of all types.
These bases could very easily explain the small number of ships required by the Clans to invade the IS.
These ship types will sooner or later become the next warship type – they are the logical next warship type that would be proposed – they are a “Battlestar” as it were!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 11:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Initial Exodus – How can there be another resupply base when they do not even exist?
How many hidden League bases were found? And how many supply routes were still running? A simple order to send supplies to one spot would be so simple that most would not even know it was done.
And with this, how many known bases were along their general route?
have any new projects ever not considered how much it is going to cost?
Actually, quite a few. Outposts will never generate money. Military bases. Now how about setting up bases on worlds that people can not survive without domes and environmental suits? They need the resources, but in itself, it will never pay for itself, much less profit from it. Even a listening outpost falls into this category.
Consider the modern cruise liner industry for food – way way above anything the military would take – in Vino Veritas!
And yet screaming about costs, so all this is over budget. Look at how much food is used on an aircraft carrier each day. The ones a mile long have to constantly get in supplies in order to just function. Something 5 miles long would never survive long. Growing food? Not enough fields to keep the population fed. And that isn't even considering your ranching idea. Maybe you should do some research on that.
Sorry but I disagree, Risk Theory again – you must have everything with you that you will need in the future
Lost the context of the statement again? Personal belongings would be kept to a minimum. The rest of the personal effects would be shipped at a later time. And there were more then a few colonies started that weren't planned. Mishap in a system, and the people had to flee to the planet and start anew.
These ship types will sooner or later become the next warship type.
Not later. As soon as they created a ship this large, the military would build their war versions of it. It not being the ones to develop it, and the commercial sectors copied it.
Now the paradox comes again. Leaving the large colony ship in the system is not going back and getting another colony ready to start. Or shipping in supplies to the one it was part of building. This is the contradiction that has the logic holes in it. So what? The get more supplies/start a new colony? Or become the military base for the system? The story changes when it suits.
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Requiem
08/08/19 05:56 AM
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QUOTE: A simple order to send supplies to one spot would be so simple that most would not even know it was done.
If this was done it would require access to multiple Jump-ships, Money and Political Power – the only ones who could possible consider doing this is either the Military (Black Ops. Team) or a Very Large Corporation who has access to resources most countries wouldn’t have.
QUOTE: Outposts will never generate money.
Think long term – over 100 years – industry / resources / mining etc. are established, it is only now that you would see the colony economy starting to get out of the red and into the black.
QUOTE: And yet screaming about costs, so all this is over budget. Look at how much food is used on an aircraft carrier each day.
Aircraft carries do not include wine list etc
Colony ships – hydroponics / aquaculture bays – with a population of over 40,000 people most of the food would be held in storage throughout the entire cruise, only a small percentage would be grown on board – this is all planned for.
QUOTE: Personal belongings would be kept to a minimum. The rest of the personal effects would be shipped at a later time.
This statement is based upon cost – which is the lesser amount? Taking it with you on the colony ship or hiring a second ship and the dropships necessary to transport 40,000 people’s personal effects – How many mules would that be? 400 ? so how many Jump-ships?
I still believe that if you have a single ship that is designed to take everything in one hit it wold be exponentially more cost effective.
QUOTE: So what? The get more supplies/start a new colony? Or become the military base for the system? The story changes when it suits.
This statement is dependent upon the Government’s politics – purse strings – the desire of the people – if an election are coming up soon – and the political power of the military over the government.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 01:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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QUOTE: A simple order to send supplies to one spot would be so simple that most would not even know it was done.
If this was done it would require access to multiple Jump-ships, Money and Political Power – the only ones who could possible consider doing this is either the Military (Black Ops. Team) or a Very Large Corporation who has access to resources most countries wouldn’t have.
Do you not understand the principles of commerce and shipping? First off, this statement was about the Exodus, and how it would be able to resupply before it left the IS. Second off, this is done even during war, as some units do have shipment of arms and ammo being sent to a location they can pick it up just before going into the target system and even getting it there afterwards. Merc don't normally have extra ships to do this with, and they don't have house shipments coming in.
Think long term – over 100 years – industry / resources / mining etc. are established, it is only now that you would see the colony economy starting to get out of the red and into the black.
Funny. Most of the thread has the push to make money in less then 5 years. The need for 20,000 people to build up an industrial world has been the main push. NOW it is long term? And some bases will still never make money. Take a fueling depot in an uninhabited system. Put there to refuel ships bypassing the heavily armed systems. Not commercial but place by the houses to do just that. NO INCOME what so ever. All out going costs.
Aircraft carries do not include wine list etc
So you don't know much about the recent military things going on. Though I will give you, that it isn't for diner but in the store onboard. And it isn't the best wines.
Taking it with you on the colony ship or hiring a second ship and the dropships necessary to transport 40,000 people’s personal effects.
Your own argument says they will have more things coming in. Even if it is just commerce ships coming to take the resources the colony is producing. So just arguments, or did you stop thinking beyond just what you want, not need?
This statement is dependent upon the Government’s politics – purse strings – the desire of the people – if an election are coming up soon – and the political power of the military over the government.
So knowing this, and not saying so, shows this is just for arguing.
One last thing with this post.
The government IS very much in control of colonization, even if done by big corporations.
Passports.
They DO control who doesn't go. And given a list of who they can bring with them, the colony leader has to choose from a list. Those on it, may not be government agents, but they could stop your best carpenter or some such thing.
And no. This isn't suggesting the military colonizations, as those are outposts and bases.
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Requiem
08/08/19 08:10 PM
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If the statement was in regards to the exodus – please indicate this
Military resupply and commercial resupply depend upon the era and the number of available ships to conduct such a mission.
QUOTE: Most of the thread has the push to make money in less then 5 years.
Where did I say this?
QUOTE: a fueling depot in an uninhabited system.
Every gas station gets paid – even those in remote locations – the bill has to go somewhere?
QUOTE: wine list
Everyone on board an aircraft carrier can have wine with dinner and lunch as you can on a cruise liner?
QUOTE: import and export post Colony establishment
Dependent upon Colony economics and requirements - what is required and what has been produced within the
QUOTE: So knowing this, and not saying so, shows this is just for arguing.
“This statement is dependent upon the Government’s politics – purse strings – the desire of the people – if an election are coming up soon – and the political power of the military over the government. “, sorry but this is a valid statement.
Quote: They DO control who doesn't go.
So Governments / Large corporations can say ….. if I put a team together in my country I cannot travel to Mount Everest and Climb it?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 09:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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QUOTE: Most of the thread has the push to make money in less then 5 years.
Where did I say this?
The costs would require a very large and very well-funded Colony to be considered viable from a cost benefit analysis – giving it due consideration 20,000 to 40,000 people at a single move could be considered a viable amount from a cost analysis.
Construction of a colony – Depending upon its complexity and the materials used 18 to 36 months would not be unthinkable to establish the viable colony.
All of them would have had a cost/production mindset – Logistics and Accountancy would demand nothing else.
There are other statements that suggest the colony must make money in a few years, otherwise the banks and such would find the cost analysis to be too risky.
One more thing. All the talk of the government not being able to do things is using real time government. The Hegemony was a different government. They were more strict on things, as they had to be. The costs to start with. Trying to send a military escort with the colonists was far to expensive to have everyone running to the hills.
So history does not fit here.
Edited by ghostrider (08/08/19 09:24 PM)
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Requiem
08/08/19 10:07 PM
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Reading comprehension again - Establishing a Viable Colony – the Infrastructure required bricks and mortar, power, water, sewage, food etc …….
Risk analysis would be based on over a hundred years – most colonies take more than one generation to get it working.
Why would the Hegemony send a military escort with every new colony vessel?
If the Hegemony was a Totalitarian Government – then and only then would the Government have total control over the Colony – A military governor and the marines necessary to back up his/her rule over the colonists.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/19 01:06 AM
66.74.60.165
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A Government that controls colonization does not have to be Tolitarian. I don't know why you got it in your head that was it. Most of Europe did as the Americas were being colonized. This is colonist, not those exploring that settled down.
Risk analysis would be based on over a hundred years
OH. Now you say that. The longest I have know for a bank to risk money is for a house. 30 years. Though refinancing can be done, the initial loan is 30 at the normal longest. 20,000 people and supplies to build a city sounds like short term, ie 5 years.
In canon, they required an escort with all colony ships after one of them went missing. I don't remember the year off hand, but that is where it's at.
In alt, you said it yourself that they would need protection. As the Hegemony military was the only game, it would be the most logical answer to this.
If the Hegemony was a Totalitarian Government – then and only then would the Government have total control over the Colony – A military governor and the marines necessary to back up his/her rule over the colonists.
This is incorrect. The government could have total control over coloines, such as those the Spainish had during their silver days. With having to import things thru space, a simple blockade and arresting any ship that violates it is enough to keep control. Revolt and not have fresh supplies coming in. Food it bad when the colony doesn't produce enough themselves. And in space, that is more common then not. If not, then the need to import food would not happen.
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Requiem
08/09/19 04:29 AM
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QUOTE: A Government that controls colonization
The era (1607 onwards) and the means of how a colony is established for the Americas can in no way be compared with the era and the means of how a colony is established in the Far Future of the Hegemony and beyond.
These are two completely different systems.
The process of colonizing a new world can only be viewed from when it actually occurred.
Canon stated it was initially the countries (Like the USA) in control of Terran Alliance who gained the colonies. However of the 600 colonies only 360 were actually controlled by the Alliance – the remained being rogue Colonies However in 2236 Freedom declared its independence – starting rebellion on this world and many others.
QUOTE: Risk analysis would be based on over a hundred years
Argentina, Austria and Mexico have recently issued 100 year bonds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/19 01:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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The era (1607 onwards) and the means of how a colony is established for the Americas can in no way be compared with the era and the means of how a colony is established in the Far Future of the Hegemony and beyond.
Why not? The use of history in an environment that has no history comparisons are used by you all the time. Even now, people are required to have a passport to move to other countries. How is this different then moving to a new world?
These are two completely different systems.
Scope is the only difference. The future is huge, but then not being confined to a single world does that.
Argentina, Austria and Mexico have recently issued 100 year bonds. Most people that own banks don't want to die before they see a return for their investments.
Bonds are a little different then loan. And I would suspect there is some fine print to them.
One such thing I would look for is the clause saying the person who purchased the bond is the one that has to collect it when it matures. So that means your children or grandchildren couldn't benefit from it. And the government wouldn't have to pay it back. Though I guess you could buy it for a child and hope they live that long.
But I do suspect there will be lawsuits over them as well.
One such issue being the government defaults on them, when the time to pay them back comes up.
But his belongs in a different thread.
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Requiem
08/10/19 09:08 PM
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QUOTE: Why not?
Two completely different sociologies – development, structure and the functioning of a human society.
1607 – Puritan society – governed by a monarchy Vs. 2200’s – many vast and different societies each with their own norms, goals, religions governed by failing democracy (or other – money – the top 0.01% who own the majority of the wealth pulling the strings from behind the curtain?) etc.
Two completely different technologies bases
1607 – hand tools, muskets, sail vessels Vs. 2200’s technical, digital and robotic driven societies.
1607 – one hundred and 150 people at a maximum per ship Vs. 2200’s – thousands to tens of thousands per ship
Two completely different destinations – a sea voyage or a heavenly voyage to a new world
The underlying psychology (the mindset of the colonists) and available resources of these two groups, are just too completely different from one another.
QUOTE: Bonds
Governments within recent history have used bonds as a means of financing – they usually do not have pre-conditions attached as no one would purchase them if they did.
Even in the far future of the Battletech Universe I would assume Banking / Finance practices are similar to that of today, just more heavily regulated by the House Lords Administration / Finance Departments.
It is only through a strong economy and an available finance system can there be funds available to allow for the initial colonization of new space as well as its continuance over centuries.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/19 11:58 AM
66.74.60.165
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The underlying psychology (the mindset of the colonists) and available resources of these two groups, are just too completely different from one another.
Then don't try using history to support any of your statements.
Like how can the clan psycology have come about, or why the civvies didn't flee. Even the wolf packs run into this in space.
And with the idea of funding, this is the very reason why the huge ships would not come about. The states have their own ships, and would use them instead of buying or renting a ship 5 miles long.
This is not even getting into the design, prototype, and building of such a vessel. Costs for it would never be recovered, and that is also not saying if the stress of jumping would even allow it to survive.
Organizations would use the smaller resources as well, since they would spend less on them, even with fuel and everything else involved. It would be a more controlled event as well as an on going tax right off. The colony is reliant on the company to provide what it needs, so they are less likely to revolt. Sounds familiar?
Banks would not invest in this as an entity, but lending money is possible. They are not likely to do long term loans as they would with star craft as you can not really repo a world and trying to sell it would be even more difficult. Protecting the investment comes to mind.
So no. The rules do not need to be changed to make ships this size.
Even space stations are partially deconstructed, or constructed on site, instead of jumping them. And having a removable core on a space ship would give them an extra area to deal with ship making or storage.
The argument here may be how the Dragoons moved their station. As there is NO other examples in clan space, it is likely they disassembled and reassembled it.
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ghostrider
08/11/19 04:28 PM
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Should the rules need changing in the following areas …
I have come to the conclusion the existing construction rules needs to be replaced to allow for the construction of a more realistic colony ship etc. Thus remove the existing rules and replace it with a completely new rules to allow for advancements in technology from the first jump circa 2100 to 3150.
These are statements in the first two posts, which basically comes down to trying to say it is asking if the rules should be changed, but in reality, saying canon needs to be reworked because they don't fit the persons objectives.
As house rules as well as an imaginative mind, would find a way around this, yet it seems the question of if they should change it, hasn't been answered.
As I have not heard anything about it, the person has not raised this question on the official board.
I bring this to light, as it seems this is not for opinion but to argue. More then a few other posts have supported the arguing issue, and the answer always reverts to my alt.
Others may be needed to say yes, it needs to be changed, or no, this concept is not needed in the canonverse.
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Requiem
08/11/19 07:28 PM
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Historical Comparisons – George Santayana – Those who do not know history’s mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
Some are readily comparable / others are not.
Technological Development – Initially many high technological / high cost vehicles are State Owed (NASA – Rocket / Shuttle) but today we have individuals establishing companies / financing their own space projects (Virgin etc) – In the Battletech Universe I believe that yes ships are first only owned by the state due to the costs and technological requirements, however, over time both costs and technology no longer become a barrier to the individual / groups of individuals.
Funding – In the game world if funding was such an issue most wars would not occur due to high prohibitive costs – even a single warship could not be produced – paradox!
The game wold must have a degree of scope to allow it to create the uncreatable. Current Drop-Ship and Jump-Ship designs ARE a completely impractical design for interstellar colonization – they are just too small for mass colonist (people) and their animals transport. Long term zero G cannot be considered a healthy environment. Thus there must be a mass transport vehicle – the size of which can be determined by each game group and how the view their alternate universe.
Organisational size – there are organisations whose size, scope and revenue outperform many countries.
Banks – security could be a percentage of the planet –if their loan is defaulted, the bank can sell off to whomever they want this percentage of land which was held as security to recoup their losses.
So, in this way yes they can 'repo' the world.
I still believe there needs to be a colony vessel within the game – the size of which can be determined by each gaming group.
Many ‘stations’ could be moved within the game – Wold Dragons – Clans Supply bases (located in the deep periphery during their invasion) – Jump-ship mobile repair ships – are within the game.
The question that should be asked is if these ‘stations’ are in the game why were they never converted into a mobile fortress from which an entire army could be martialled and directed from.
So yes some home groups may see these ships as a positive game prop. And Yes, in my opinion, there needs to be an overhaul of the current rules to allow for colony ships within the game – the question is how big they are and how many people / animals can be transported. The purpose built colony vessel over the existing Jump / Drop-ship is, again in my opinion, is a more realistic concept when you consider how colonies are established.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/19 10:23 PM
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Funding – In the game world if funding was such an issue most wars would not occur due to high prohibitive costs – even a single warship could not be produced – paradox!
The government has never really worried that much about costs. Private purchasing has. And when on defense, costs aren't an issue as you are dead if you don't stop the enemy.
Given the accountant part of this, I find it odd to even hear this suggested.
Historical Comparisons – George Santayana – Those who do not know history’s mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
Funny, how history is only right when it supports some opinions, but is absolutely wrong with others. Guess that is why history repeats itself. Some think I am not making the same mistakes.
completely impractical design for interstellar colonization – they are just too small for mass colonist (people)
Hmm. So real colonizing, ie less then a thousand, is done very well with the current designs. Only to fit the necessary mass transfer of people to the 'realm' between the IS and clans calls for the larger ships. So canon must be rewritten to allow this to happen. Not sure of others, but I feel this is shoving the concept down my throat, as there is no real reason to change the rules to make such a boondoggle ship.
Thus there must be a mass transport vehicle – the size of which can be determined by each game group and how the view their alternate universe.
So house rules don't do it. Canon must change to fit your designs. This is not opinion on concept, but an absolute demand it be done for your benefit. Take it up on the official board. Only they have the power to change it. A grassroots movement isn't going to happen.
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ghostrider
08/11/19 10:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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Many ‘stations’ could be moved within the game – Wold Dragons – Clans Supply bases (located in the deep periphery during their invasion) – Jump-ship mobile repair ships – are within the game.
The stresses on such, may well be beyond their ability to withstand. It was brought out why they didn't use jumpships to move stations like the iceburgs of the Ryan Iceships.
It is possible a jump core this size does not work.
Who would even try to build this size of jumpdrive?
The question that should be asked is if these ‘stations’ are in the game why were they never converted into a mobile fortress from which an entire army could be martialled and directed from.
They have been. And they died in the during the Amaris revolt and the first succession war. A large, immobile object that has only one purpose, and it can't even do that right. Guard a jump point? Yeah right.
Oh. But this was answered when it was suggested to make a warship this size. It would be too unwieldy.
So far, the ONLY person I have spoken with that 'needs' this, has been you. The few that have said anything, have been basically, it is not needed.
And as been stated, it was not meant for before the league play, but to counter the clans and create the alt.
So the demand and arguing it is necessary for the game to continue is just trying to get arguments going, and then squaking it is an opinion when shown it isn't needed.
But then back when we played without construction rules being done, we used normal jumpships and dropships to make a colony. Imaging that. A world that built up rather quickly, as a stream of items is brought in, but not in one large ship... Well beyond a Behemoth.
One more observation. This only came about when the idea of the 'realm' came up and couldn't be done without a massive effort to create it. Irony?
Edited by ghostrider (08/11/19 10:34 PM)
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Requiem
08/13/19 07:17 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: The government has never really worried that much about costs.
Federal / House Budgets will still be in existence within the Battletech era – thus they would need to be worried as costs. The complexity of which would require a small army of accountants and super computers to ensure it is adequately implemented, that is if you believe in implementing a more “real world” Battletech universe. There must be a percentage of GDP assigned to the military.
QUOTE: … there is no real reason to change the rules to make such a boondoggle ship.
Reason ……mass animal / human transport – muscle atrophy whilst in a zero G environment for long periods of time … not explained
Reason ……………. How many tens of thousands of Jump-ships and Drop-ships would be required, logistical challenge, to effectively colonise every world in the IS in the numbers required to establish a colony on every world and those that disappeared throughout the ages. How are they all created within such a relatively short period of time? … not explained.
Reason ……..How did Kerensky be able to transfer the millions of people for two years to reach clan space without the use of specialised colony ships? … not explained.
If a group want to adopt my theory of colony ships, let them!
QUOTE: The stresses on such, may well be beyond their ability to withstand.
And yet in the canon realm they did jump!
QUOTE: they have been. And they died in the during the Amaris revolt and the first succession war.
Can you please let me know – The name / class of the vessel, Book and page Number
A colony ship can be used to explain many of the Battletech historical holes – they could even help to explain many of the problems when it comes to explaining the Clans Invasion – especially when it comes to ‘sibko’ numbers that were completely glossed over and just came to the position that there are always enough warriors when in reality there must have been a shortage,
If you want to understand how poorly written the Battletch universe is may I suggest you read Legend of the Galactic Heroes as a comparison universe.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/13/19 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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muscle atrophy whilst in a zero G environment for long periods of time … not explained
Gray Death Legion. The jumpship captain had braces on his legs, due to the lack of being in normal gravity. But again. That is why they do their burns, to move the ship to get some gravity.
How many tens of thousands of Jump-ships and Drop-ships would be required, logistical challenge, to effectively colonise every world in the IS in the numbers required to establish a colony on every world and those that disappeared throughout the ages. How are they all created within such a relatively short period of time?
Well first. Stop thinking a successful colony requires thousands of people. It doesn't. So one jumpship, with one dropship could colonize an entire system. They don't just drop thousands of people and say it's good. Colonies, the good ones, take time to build up .
The second part of this, you would also have to ask how so many people are in the IS in less then 1000 years. Billions on thousands of worlds. It took that long to get Earth up there. And that is just one world.
How did Kerensky be able to transfer the millions of people for two years to reach clan space without the use of specialised colony ships? … not explained.
This was partially explained, but the refusal to work with that explanation is the issue. You do not need luxury liners to move colonists. Those that have been written about were on board normal ships when they went out. But still, this is over looked. We are not talking about CEO's like the Brewer family going on a luxury ride. We are talking normal every day people that ride on what ever they can use. Grumble a little, but even an Intruder dropship would be fine to move them. And the trip does not have to be one continuous time aboard the ship. And again. 2 years for exodus. Other then that, I doubt any were aboard the ship for over 6 months straight.
If a group want to adopt my theory of colony ships, let them!
Again. It is fine if a group wants to do this. Saying canon is wrong and has to change is the issue. Talk all alt, or all canon. Mixing them is the biggest issue here.
QUOTE: The stresses on such, may well be beyond their ability to withstand.
And yet in the canon realm they did jump!
The Dragoons station was not said the unit jumped with its own drive, as it did not have a jump core onboard. The statement of the stresses well as the others in that response was possible reasons why they didn't go bigger.
If you want to understand how poorly written the Battletch universe is may I suggest you read Legend of the Galactic Heroes as a comparison universe.
And yet, for some reason, you continue to use canon as the basis for your alt. I have yet to see any game or story that doesn't have a few holes in them. Not that I believe canon is the best it could be. But then I am not part of the team doing so, and as I asked before. Where is your custom made game, so we can compare? Not an alt in the battle tech universe, but your own unique game with it's own rules.
The large stations. What happened to the huge habitats and work stations in the IS?
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Requiem
08/13/19 07:17 PM
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QUOTE: Gray Death Legion….. braces on his legs ….. they do their burns, to move the ship to get some gravity.
….. braces …. Do all animals have braces for them? ….. burns how many and how often …. Fuel costs over long periods of time. Sorry but I find this to be error.
QUOTE: Well first. Stop thinking a successful colony requires thousands of people. It doesn't.
Questions
…. Without a large initial population how do you ensure a satisfactory gene pool from which to reproduce?
…. Without a large initial population how do you ensure the growth rate obtains a population for each and evey world within the IS as per canon figures by 3025 (also factoring in the wars)? Given time – does not this mean the growth rate has to become something ridiculous?
QUOTE: I doubt any were aboard the ship for over 6 months straight.
These is no evidence of any pit stops within the canon writings.
Due to the pervasion of mutiny’s within the fleet how can you let people off early – once off they would never be able to get them back on again.
Again muscle atrophy of people etc – given the small number of gravity decks available this would be ineffectual given the total number of people.
Again how can all the Drop-ships with people on them do burns to obtain gravity given their overall limited resources (fuel). How can the air reclamation units on every Drop-ship and Jump-Ship be expected to work properly given the number of people required to be stacked in like sardines? The mathematics of it all does not work ….
QUOTE: The Dragoons station was not said the unit jumped with its own drive,
How did it get from the IS to Clan Space and then from Clan Space to IS space and then move around as their contracts dictated?
QUOTE: Where is your custom made game?
Really? Read the series of books and compare the writing styles and the detail therein …
QUOTE: The large stations. What happened to the huge habitats and work stations in the IS?
They are there if you want them in the game include them – though I would believe they are more for the RPG side of the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/14/19 04:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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…. Without a large initial population how do you ensure a satisfactory gene pool from which to reproduce?
…. Without a large initial population how do you ensure the growth rate obtains a population for each and evey world within the IS as per canon figures by 3025 (also factoring in the wars)? Given time – does not this mean the growth rate has to become something ridiculous?
Due to the pervasion of mutiny’s within the fleet how can you let people off early – once off they would never be able to get them back on again.
Are you just trying to argue, or do you not know how colonies actually work?
What are the perameters you are using to figure out a successful colony? One that has Defiance industries on world by 10 years, with 2 billion in population?
They survive and thrive is successful. And gee. Maybe with each supply ship, more colonists come in, or may be immigration doesn't count for making a colony larger.
Now. With getting off, what makes you think this is not just stopping until the next ship heading out, gets there?
Except the exodus, I don't see any colonizing efforts taking more then a year at most to get where they going. Most would stage at the last point that they could gather resources then head out. So say the TC or the OA going out from the FS.
Oh yeah. They are supposed to leave from terra and head out for 2 years without stopping. All colonies started that way.
And military mindset? You said the government wouldn't have any control over this. Or did you fall back to the exodus again, without saying so?
Fuel costs over long periods of time
And there is the misunderstanding of this. Is the fuel costs for burns more then having people start developing the space issues? Most would say no, and due the gravity burns. Less then one g will work. Just enough to fight the bone decay.
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Requiem
08/14/19 06:29 AM
1.158.206.105
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Have a play with a Human population calculator
http://www.metamorphosisalpha.com/ias/population.php
try to find the most recent figures after colonization – the more time used the greater it cannot be believed.
Individual questions have yet to be answered ….
Initial Colony Years – not 850 years into the future …. Just four generations in ….
Without a large initial population how do you ensure a satisfactory gene pool from which to reproduce?
This is a legitimate question – if a remote world starts with a small initial population, as per your perameters, and the idea of increasing the population through immigration is remote – then what’s next, mass IVF medical procedures to keep society active?
Mutiny = Kerensky’s Exodus
This is again a legitimate question – Canon has his Kerensky’s son being a part of the mutiny as people have come to see that Kerensky does not know what he is doing …. There is no long term plan …. You suggest letting them off at the next earth similar world for a little R&R – one off the ships how do you get them back on board without starting a riot / killing many of them to force them back onto the Exodus track?
Human nature would dictate that once they get off the ship they are never getting back on again without a fight!
Defiance Industries
Poor example when consider the world and the reason people went there – their job!
Consider Colonization
So far the argument revolves around the time to get there.
However what about building the colony – what about building the farms – agriculture, horticulture, viticulture, aquaculture etc – what about building the houses – what about building the infrastructure – roads, electricity water, sewerage etc.
How many Jump-ships and Drop-ships?
Sorry but creating an artificial g by creating a gravity burn - Just enough to fight the bone (what about muscle?) decay does not hold water – what if you have children, what if you have infants, what if you are transporting animals.
Sorry but no the Drop-ships can is in no way be considered to be a contusive environment for humans and animals for anywhere over a month – especially if you have them living together. This is a closed environment one wrong disease and everyone will be dead. (It is like one person having a cold on an aircraft trip – you can bet a majority will come down with it shortly soon after, due to the closed environment)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/14/19 11:10 AM
66.74.60.165
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Poor example when consider the world and the reason people went there – their job!
This is not colonization, but a forced migration of people.
Exploration is a job. Being hired to work on a new world is a job. Rarely, was anyone paid to colonize a new place. Maybe the definition of this is where the next step needs to go.
if a remote world starts with a small initial population, as per your perameters, and the idea of increasing the population through immigration is remote – then what’s next, mass IVF medical procedures to keep society active?
More then a few very successful worlds were small communities that thrived and grew. They didn't need the artificial means to expand the populations.
what about building the farms – agriculture, horticulture, viticulture, aquaculture etc – what about building the houses – what about building the infrastructure – roads, electricity water, sewerage etc.
How many Jump-ships and Drop-ships?
What about having premade buildings go with the colonist? What about having farms that feed the colonist and not be ready to ship out mega tons of food off world, as some colonies would never be able to? The infrastructure is built as needed, not making the greater Los Angeles area as soon as you land. If this is the case you are looking for, then having it built BEFORE the people that will live there is required. Then, as you say, it is migration.
This is a closed environment one wrong disease and everyone will be dead.
So any traveling on ships would be dangerous. So expansion to the stars, even on the 5 mile long ship could not happen due to this very issue.
And yet again. The people going to a new world will not be on the ship for more then a year, if that. The exodus is unique in that aspect. It can NOT be the basis for normal colonization.
Trying to say all colonizing efforts will take the time the exodus took is beyond foolish. Only in extreme cases will someone leave from Terra to head out as far as the clan home worlds. A week recharging, and 10 weeks you can be up to 300 light years from the place you started. That is a pretty good distance. And still, you think that it is done in one go. No stopping anywhere to rest in a gravity environment. Such as a space station in civilized areas before you head out deeper.
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ghostrider
08/14/19 11:29 AM
66.74.60.165
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Where does is say Alexander was part of the people revolting against his father?
Now for the black hole sized logic gap.
Why would any of the houses, DC or FC/LA spend the resources building a bunch of factories in the deep periphery, which was not covered by the truce in the initial years? Would they not spend all their resources rebuilding the world, including military factories within their own borders?
Some outposts and depots would be, but not some huge colonies, that they could not defend against the clans.
And this argument stems from someone demanding canon changes to follow their vision. Changing to the alt everytime to say it has to be that way, while arguing canon need to be rewritten is the problem. Own up to it, and go straight canon or straight alt. So far, most of the threads have been saying this. It needs to fit your vision. This is not suggesting a different alternative to the canon, but a full out insistence that canon be changed.
If you want to continue saying it is showing an alt, then the entire way it is presented and demands of changing needs to change.
Rules need to be fix, and some extra clarifications to some need to happen.
You suggest a better story, yet continue to use the faulty canon line, and can not see the logic holes are still there.
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Retry
08/14/19 12:30 PM
174.70.184.145
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I feel both the differing "classes" of ships and the specialized dropships are largely unnecessary. The ship classes would need a ton of rework of most of the canon warships to make feasible, and there's really no need for "specializing" a dropship. You can theoretically make a single dropship capable of carrying 10,000 civillians, enough consumables for a year, and still have 10,000 tons available for diesel or fusion backup generators, light manufacturing, medical equipment, and vehicles.
Dedicated colony vessels could be useful but also perfectly capable of being made with current rules, and somewhat unnecessary as the same could probably be done with slightly modified canon jumpships and dropships.
Quote:
Without a large initial population how do you ensure a satisfactory gene pool from which to reproduce?
Taking genetic considerations only into account, the "magic number" to ensure a health human human population is 98. Or 160, or 80, depending on how you do the counting. But you don't need a particularly large initial population.
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/how-many-humans-would-it-take-keep-our-species-alive-ncna900151
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1936-magic-number-for-space-pioneers-calculated/#.VBiC_XtDLwo
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…. Without a large initial population how do you ensure the growth rate obtains a population for each and evey world within the IS as per canon figures by 3025 (also factoring in the wars)? Given time – does not this mean the growth rate has to become something ridiculous?
3025, the IS has a population of around 6 trillion. Starting from 2100 with a population of 11 billion.
Using the following equation for exponential growth:
Xt=X0(1+r)^t
Where Xt is the final population (6 trillion), X0 is the initial population (11 billion), r is the human growth rate, and t is the time interval (3025-2100=925 years), we solve for r.
We find r to be .00683=0.683%/year. To get from 2100 to canonical 3025 numbers, the entire human population has to be maintained on average to be about the same level as the United States has right now (~0.7%). Not only is that not ridiculous, that's not even impressive.
Using the same formula, we can take an example planet: New Earth, with a population of 302 million in 3130. The colony was established around 2108, so t=1037. Take the highest peak of historical world-wide human growth rate of 2.2% as a reasonable figure achievable for a new colony. Solving for X0, we get... .05 humans. Obviously that doesn't make any sense to have one-twentieth of a human on a colonization ship, so the colony obviously can't have grown at an average rate of 2.2% per year, which would be quite large but not ridiculous: The number must be somewhat lower.
Running the simulation again, assuming an initial population of the "magic number" of 98 people, a final population of 302,000,000 in 3130, and a time interval of 1037 years, we solve for r=.0145=1.45% per year. Even with only 1 colonization wave and no immigration with less population than some of the tiniest towns, it's perfectly feasible to reach the populations noted in canon.
https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth
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Sorry but creating an artificial g by creating a gravity burn - Just enough to fight the bone (what about muscle?) decay does not hold water – what if you have children, what if you have infants, what if you are transporting animals.
Neither children, nor infants, nor cattle can tell the difference between the accelerations produced due to that of a planetary mass (gravity), reaction acceleration (warship/dropship under a constant acceleration) or centripetal acceleration (Grav Decks).
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Requiem
08/14/19 07:11 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: More than a few very successful worlds were small communities that thrived and grew. They didn't need the artificial means to expand the populations.
Was gene regression even considered? Or can we assume the game developers / writers forgot about this?
QUOTE: … having it built BEFORE the people that will live there is required.
How?
The only other people that were there before them were the explorers who found the world.
Or are you suggesting that there should be two waves
First wave, construction crew to get everything ready …. Ship number one and crew
Second Wave, the colonists ….. ship number 2 and crew
Question ….. Cost …. Wouldn’t this nearly double the cost as you now need two ships rather than one?
QUOTE: So any traveling on ships would be dangerous.
Yes …. Same as travelling on a cruise ship, however, in this case you are also taking all your farm animals with them. How many cruise ships (and how long were they on their cruise before the bug struck?) have been in the media due to a bug travelling around the crew and passengers.
Drop-ship …. Consider its small size – can areas be quarantined – level of medical facility is akin to a fist aid station? (Lower Level of Safety for crew and passengers)
My colony ship ….. Consider its size – areas can most definitely be quarantined – a state of the art medical facility is built into the ship. (Higher Level of Safety for crew and passengers)
QUOTE: distance
Distance is irrelevant … safety and comfort for the people and their farm animals, the ability to transport all necessary equipment, housing, agricultural needs etc, the costs and time associated with travel is what will be determining factors. In my opinion when you compare a purpose built ship (however big it is) for colonization and Drop-ship that can only be described as a cargo carrier can you say the purpose built ship is the best fit.
Please read – Small Population Size Effects – Genetic Drift
https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/synthetic/synth_5.htm
Marin stated a suitable group of 98 individuals – what happens if even one of these 98 people have a regressive gene problem?
Smith “Even a population of 14,000 strikes Smith as a modest number if you’re counting on it to sustain our species”
Retry – where / how did you get the figure of 6 trillion people?
Also this overarching calculation and does not take into account many individual world assumptions –– information asymmetries (Joseph Stiglitz) – perfect information - faulty standard models, and the faulty policy implications and recommendations that arise from their unrealistic assumptions..
Also did you use the British or American Trillion? Remember the American (1n12) is no-where near the British (1n18).
QUOTE: Neither children, nor infants, nor cattle can tell the difference between the accelerations produced due to that of a planetary mass (gravity), reaction acceleration (warship/dropship under a constant acceleration) or centripetal acceleration (Grav Decks).
And what if there is no Grav Decks available?
My ship – permanent gravity deck.
Jump-Drop-Ship has no permanent gravity environment. What happens then?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Retry
08/14/19 10:39 PM
174.70.184.145
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Quote:
Marin stated a suitable group of 98 individuals – what happens if even one of these 98 people have a regressive gene problem?
Smith “Even a population of 14,000 strikes Smith as a modest number if you’re counting on it to sustain our species”
Cameron Smith's paper is an excessively conservative estimate. In fact, it presupposes a severe population catastrophe over a 5-generation voyage. Since there exists many cases of isolated communities with well under 1,000 people and minimal, if any, inter-mixing with foreigners (Tristan da Cunha, or the Pitcairn Islands). It's only a decent estimate if you need that colony to have a 100% success rate to save the entire human species, which is not the circumstance under Battletech's age of colonization.
Battletech's age of colonization takes place about a century into the future. Humanity has far better scientific understanding and technology associated with genetics. Their ability to screen out genetic issues, and treat them, would be far better and more reliable than it is today, and thus the minimum viable population threshold shifts downwards.
Quote:
Retry – where / how did you get the figure of 6 trillion people?
The following essay is the closest I can find to a source without actually going through and checking every single one of the thousands of planets in the Battletech Universe.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/User:Revanche/...hese%20concepts,take%20a%20few%20hundred%20billion.
Quote:
Also this overarching calculation and does not take into account many individual world assumptions
I don't need to. I just have to show that a ridiculously high growth rates are not necessary to reach the populations given in Battletech.
It's 10e12. "American" trillion and British trillion are the same. The British use the short scale now, they don't refer to the long scale 10e18 as a trillion anymore.
Quote:
And what if there is no Grav Decks available?
My ship – permanent gravity deck.
Jump-Drop-Ship has no permanent gravity environment. What happens then?
Dropships when detached from a jumpship will be under constant accelerations when in transit to and from their destination, excepting a negligible period during the halfway point when shifting to deceleration. On a Jumpship, there is access to the Grav Deck. Jumpships spend most of their time charging their sails for the next jump, and as such most of the time they're stationary enough to use the Grav Deck.
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Requiem
08/15/19 01:50 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Humanity has far better scientific understanding and technology associated with genetics. Their ability to screen out genetic issues, and treat them, would be far better and more reliable than it is today, and thus the minimum viable population threshold shifts downwards.
Where is this written?
What if the issue comes from the colonist’s new world? Given the colony size how would you rate their chances of success given the limited number of colonists and the limited number of medical technological equipment – also what if the virus is fast given the limited number of people how long could they survive? Also what is the chance of your medical person coming down with something early on – ie. how quick / can you quarantine the sick?
Whereas with a larger more comprehensive colony how would you rate their chances in comparison? Would you not believe they have the equipment – they have experts in every field – they have the contingency plans to quarantine the sick / protect their people from infections?
I for one would want to be with a larger more comprehensive colony – your chances of having experts to treat you would be greater than that of a smaller more limited colony.
QUOTE: Population Assumptions
Thanks for the source material of trillion people, however, this does not define if they are using the English or the American trillion.
I also like the last paragraph “here’s a lot of potential wiggle room in population figures. At 0.4% growth over 1000 years, you’d only end up with 1.1 trillion people (starting from Earth’s current almost 7 billion and assuming unconstrained growth), while at 1.133% growth you’d wind up with around 630 trillion. Distributing those 630 trillion people across the Inner Sphere would take, as I mentioned above an absolute minimum of 40 million JumpShips (assuming Star Lords loaded with Behemoths), and the couple of thousand inhabited planets of the Inner Sphere might have difficulty sustaining 300 Billion people each”.
Thus indicating the limiting factor, in that a very small increase in the human population growth figure will have major consequences as to the final population over 1,000+ years.
QUOTE: Trillion
The American Trillion definition has a 1 and twelve zeroes after it.
The English Trillion definition has a 1 and eighteen zeroes after it.
They are not the same at all!
Where is it shown that the UK has adopted the US trillion value?
QUOTE: access to the Grav Deck
Given that most of the time is taken by unfurling the sail, charging the battery and then refurling the sail and on most ships – one with a 90m track springs to mind – when you are transporting a population in the thousands / plus the animals how well will this work?
Also how many grav decks are there on most Jump-ships and Drop-ships?
Sorry but I still contend that one very large grav deck that is built into the internal workings of the ship (thus will not affect a jump) is the only logical design addition that should have been included on all ships from the beginning. The current design is not contusive for human life – short or long term.
The only way the ships can be designed as is, is if they have an gravity generator that can create an artificial one gravity throughout the entire ship. If this is the case I want my gravity weapons and mines!
So lets go back to the Clans – after spending six months on a trip to the IS from clan space – how much physio therapy will each warrior and technician require to regain lost muscle mass before starting the invasion – given that most ships have only one grav deck – ie. everyone has a limited amount of time on the grav deck.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/15/19 05:04 AM
66.74.60.165
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Was gene regression even considered? Or can we assume the game developers / writers forgot about this?
Keep grasping at straws. You may yet find one that has some meat to it. First off, the initial settlers of even 10, are not going to be populating the world. If the colony is successful, others will migrate, or colonize other areas of the same world. The gene pool is not inbred, like you are trying to make is sound like. Much like colonizing North America. How many ships came to America? So the population gene pool didn't have enough?
And speaking of ship numbers, how would this new realm become anything close to a successor state, as it would need well over a thousand jumpships, just to keep it's own people in supplies. Probably 5 times that in dropships. Yet according to you, there were more then enough, until it comes time for colonizing with the smaller ships. This is where the truth of the matter comes out. There is no way you can keep arguing your alt against canon and not create more logic holes.
And none of the states would allow that many ships out from under their control. And commercial ships will not stay in that area. They will not become the sacrificial pieces to hold the clans back. Just won't happen. So military from the houses, yet they are not going to just let someone commadeer them like what is suggested with the Omi/Victor realm.
They are supposed to be big and organized enough to hold back the clans and still hit the IS?
Where is the logic in this? Sorry. I forgot. It is a fantasy wargame.
Neither children, nor infants, nor cattle can tell the difference between the accelerations produced due to that of a planetary mass (gravity), reaction acceleration (warship/dropship under a constant acceleration) or centripetal acceleration (Grav Decks).
So the degeneration of the body would not happen with the burns. Hmm. Guess that point is solved.
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ghostrider
08/15/19 05:22 AM
66.74.60.165
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Or are you suggesting that there should be two waves
First wave, construction crew to get everything ready …. Ship number one and crew
Second Wave, the colonists ….. ship number 2 and crew
Question ….. Cost …. Wouldn’t this nearly double the cost as you now need two ships rather than one?
Again. The lack of knowledge in colonization is showing. What you seem to be stuck on is one persons sponsoring the colonization of a single world.
A true colony will have more then a few dozen going there, as it will not be a one time shot. If it is, then the colonists are probably dead.
Who said that just one person is financing this whole thing? Maybe you should use history instead of just spouting it, trying to make it sound good. How many ships went to Australia? America? Was that all financed by one person or even organization? Religion sent some of their people as well as governments, businesses and such. Wow. What a concept.
Please read – Small Population Size Effects – Genetic Drift
Why? We are not talking about the only people that will live there will come on the same ship. Or even half a dozen. Get the one ship concept out of your mind. Colonizes are built in waves of more people coming as the community succeeds. What you are talking about is a forced migration. It is not the same thing.
What if the issue comes from the colonist’s new world? Given the colony size how would you rate their chances of success given the limited number of colonists and the limited number of medical technological equipment – also what if the virus is fast given the limited number of people how long could they survive? Also what is the chance of your medical person coming 7down with something early on – ie. how quick / can you quarantine the sick?7
Yeah. What if you get to the new world and find a disease that kills the entire colony? So now instead of a few dozen, you have thousands dead.
And this costs is from the accountants point of view. Colonies do not send mass amounts of people at one time. The fact the area may only support a few dozen, and needs to be worked on to do more. But then what is the chance the small and probably unskilled doctors have of doing much about it?
Oh that's right. They have a fully functioning hospital staff like the NAIS with each colony that goes out. So how many hundreds of staff members do you have to send out? And what about the home worlds that now, no longer have any doctors?
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ghostrider
08/15/19 05:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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The 6 Trillion number seems a little high for just the CC. The entire IS? I suspect it is way to low for that. Given a lot of worlds have 5 billion or so on them, only 200 worlds makes a trillion. And if I know right, those numbers are for that world only, not the solar system they are in. So saying earth has 3 trillion on it, we do know they did have colonies on Venus, Mars, and moons around Jupiter, Saturn, and probably things on the other planets in this system.
Whereas with a larger more comprehensive colony how would you rate their chances in comparison? Would you not believe they have the equipment – they have experts in every field – they have the contingency plans to quarantine the sick / protect their people from infections?
Actually no. I don't believe all the colonies have anywhere close to the high end scientists and doctors. Most would NOT leave their planet to go into the unknown. Being FORCED by a company or state is different. But again. That is an outpost, or military base, not a colony.
Given that most of the time is taken by unfurling the sail, charging the battery and then refurling the sail and on most ships – one with a 90m track springs to mind – when you are transporting a population in the thousands / plus the animals how well will this work?
Maybe that is why you only have a few hundred max... hmmm.
The only way the ships can be designed as is, is if they have an gravity generator that can create an artificial one gravity throughout the entire ship. If this is the case I want my gravity weapons and mines!
So lets go back to the Clans – after spending six months on a trip to the IS from clan space – how much physio therapy will each warrior and technician require to regain lost muscle mass before starting the invasion – given that most ships have only one grav deck – ie. everyone has a limited amount of time on the grav deck.
This is assuming they didn't stop off at worlds along the way, and did it in one shot. Which sounds off, as it was less then 7 months from Terra. So how far out are they really? The LC is a huge realm. Take a couple of months to get from Terra to Coventry, much less the actual periphery.
And we know they did, as they made depots and HPG stations. It the actually story, they said the clans stopped just outside the periphery to get some organization going. It would be foolish to think they sat on their jumpships for this.
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ghostrider
08/15/19 05:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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This whole thread is about trying to find a way to populate his alts realm between the IS and the clans in less then 50 years. It just isn't going to happen with simple colonists. It will be major military bases with massed civilians sent out with the troops, yet the states would not risk that.
They would be too far to do anything if the clans did attack them.
And this is where he would say his alt would be prepared for them with a huge aerofighter force, with their own pocket warships and crap.'
And the argument goes that the amount of ships is more then enough to swamp the clans with forces, yet they don't have enough to send out small ships to colonize worlds.
The irony is very sad.
As stated before. Do what you want with your alt. Don't come in and demand the canonverse has to change to fit your vision.
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Requiem
08/15/19 08:28 AM
1.158.206.105
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Reading Comprehension - Was gene regression even considered …. regarding the topic ….. small community worlds.
Also this is why the concept of genetic drift was introduced … small population colonies can lead to issues in the future.
QUOTE: ship numbers, how would this new realm become anything close to a successor state, as it would need well over a thousand jump-ships, just to keep it's own people in supplies
Successor states do not exist yet when the first colonies were established.
As they relate to the Kerensky’s Exodus – “And none of the states would allow that many ships out from under their control” …. If enough warships guard them they will.
Omi / Victor realm
First, colonies are established following the SLDF – they are “hangers on” to the military – the military wants them there to assist with non-combat operational requirements.
Second, the FC and the DC established colonies in the deep periphery – they sent them out there to increase the size of their realms into the deep periphery.
Third, it was not until many years later did Omi / Victor declare independence of their new realm within the Deep Periphery – fought a war and won – hence new realm with all the trimmings.
Grav Decks
How many are on a normal Jump-ship?
How many are on a normal Drop-Ship?
If you are taking two weeks to recharge are you saying you will spend the majority of that time creating an artificial burn to simulate gravity? Can this even be done – wear and tear on the engine / fuel etc.
Question, were did I suggest “one person sponsoring the colonization of a single world”?
Ownership of a world is just another form of property speculation – any additional colonists will need to pay the world trust who then distributes the funds to the original owners and their descendants.
Question, were did I suggest there would be “forced migration”?
QUOTE: Colonies do not send mass amounts of people at one time.
I thought this was my proposition? – one ship – 20,000 to 40,000 people – made up of professionals from all walks of life, who could form the nucleus of a colony upon a virgin world.
If a colony was established with 20,000 to 40,000 people you can assume they would have the complete technical hardware of the NAIS Hospital to start with.
Even professionals can have a dream to be part of something greater.
And is this not what I am advocating for a more orderly / professional colony where the majority of risks have been minimized through utilizing a large and well equipped society to form a colony rather than the “fly by night” operation that is suggested by using Drop-ships and Jump-ships.
QUOTE: Given that most of the time is taken by unfurling the sail, charging the battery and then re-furling the sail and on most ships – one with a 90m track springs to mind – when you are transporting a population in the thousands / plus the animals how well will this work?
Kerensky’s Exodus – how many were on each ship? – sorry this does not work here!
Yes, it only works is you have a small number of crew and those on your drop-ships – anywhere else it just doesn’t work.
Question - how do you get an animal (say a cow) from the Drop-ship cargo area to the grav deck so that it can take a walk (hopefully without any accidents along the way there, on the grav deck and on the way back)? What about the smaller animals - chickens are there walls on the grav deck to keep them in when they have their scheduled gav deck time?
QUOTE: Clans…. this is assuming they didn't stop off at worlds along the way, and did it in one shot … And we know they did, as they made depots and HPG stations. It the actually story, they said the clans stopped just outside the periphery to get some organization going. It would be foolish to think they sat on their jump-ships for this.
Question: was the entire armada for each clan sent on a mission to establish these bases or could we assume specialized units (similar to the Sea Bees in WW2) were used to establish these bases. Wouldn’t it be a little overkill to send all you units out to establish these bases before having to return at a set date so that they could then invade the IS.
Logistics – logistics chains over a long distance
So the clans can create a logistical chain from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS but the IS cannot create one from the IS to the end of the Deep Periphery?
How does that work?
Number of Ships
I thought we had been through this before – there are no numbers written down anywhere where it stipulates the number of ships any IS house has at any one period of time. Thus there is no way a statement can be made to say that they don't have enough to send out small ships to colonize worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/15/19 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Successor states do not exist yet when the first colonies were established.
And where are all these ships coming from to do so? Unless military run, there would not be more then a handful of ships in this region, and even then, that isn't likely they could join any sort of resistance movement. All know the clans would take anything they wanted to in the region. So how do you move anyone?
The 'big' colonizing organizations wouldn't risk sending a tens of trillion c-bill ship out there. It is an almost garenteed loss.
As they relate to the Kerensky’s Exodus – “And none of the states would allow that many ships out from under their control” …. If enough warships guard them they will.
Continue that thought. Guarding them on the way out, but leaving them as soon as they can, since leaving warships to guard some unknown world, verses important industries at home would have those warships leaving the moment they are recharged. So no. They wouldn't.
Third, it was not until many years later did Omi / Victor declare independence of their new realm within the Deep Periphery – fought a war and won – hence new realm with all the trimmings
Step one to this who paragraph. Why are you trying to colonize the deep periphery? Other then the need to fill in a hole for the alt? You would colonize worlds close to home, where you can protect them better. You are NOT going to send a few dozen regiments of troops to guard few hundred worlds this far out. Military bases are a different story.
If you are taking two weeks to recharge are you saying you will spend the majority of that time creating an artificial burn to simulate gravity? Can this even be done – wear and tear on the engine / fuel etc.
There may be a time or two that would take 2 weeks to recharge, but the average is 1 week. So your two year voyage to a world still isn't going to happen. Well unless you are colonizing beyond the clan home worlds. Which would be highly and stupidly foolish.
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ghostrider
08/15/19 12:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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Number of Ships
I thought we had been through this before
We have. And it keeps changing in your posts about the alt. When it is convenient for you, there are ships dropping out of the sun. But when used against you, there suddenly becomes the ghostland of ships in the IS. Which is how lot of the arguments go in the alt threads.
Ownership of a world is just another form of property speculation – any additional colonists will need to pay the world trust who then distributes the funds to the original owners and their descendants.
Still showing you don't have any real idea of what colonization is. Colonists do not pay for the land in a new region, like a world in the deep periphery. Now this combined with...
I thought this was my proposition? – one ship – 20,000 to 40,000 people – made up of professionals from all walks of life, who could form the nucleus of a colony upon a virgin world
Shows that this is NOT a real colony, but someone sponsoring a new region for them.
And your thought of the proposition was one colony ship? No. Your proposition... no. Your demand is for canon to change the rules so you can do this. And it is a demand.
Now add to it, the inclusion of profit analysis. This is someone looking to create a new office for their company. But some how, the big picture is being missed by the posts.
If a colony was established with 20,000 to 40,000 people you can assume they would have the complete technical hardware of the NAIS Hospital to start with.
Not even close. If that were true, ALL worlds in the IS would have this. And they don't. Not even the FS, and they are the ones to make NAIS. This explains why you think it costs so much to make a colony. It also shows you are artificially creating a colony that even with 40000 people will not mean it is successful. This is more of a military outpost, and even then, would not have the professionals you suggest.
how do you get an animal (say a cow) from the Drop-ship cargo area to the grav deck so that it can take a walk (hopefully without any accidents along the way there, on the grav deck and on the way back)? What about the smaller animals - chickens are there walls on the grav deck to keep them in when they have their scheduled gav deck time?
Ah? Push? No gravity means their ability to resist going is nullified. Or use food to entice them. Then the ever popular using cargo movers in the zero g. Keep grasping.
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ghostrider
08/15/19 01:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Question, were did I suggest there would be “forced migration”?
And is this not what I am advocating for a more orderly / professional colony where the majority of risks have been minimized through utilizing a large and well equipped society to form a colony rather than the “fly by night” operation that is suggested by using Drop-ships and Jump-ships.
Again. Use this 'widely educated history' and look at how colonies are built. The only real time a corporation gets into it, is if they smell a profit. Normally an asset that is needed is found. Colonies tend to be small farms at first then grow.
And look at how much food a larger aircraft carrier eats in a day, with 4000 or so people. Over 150 tons, and a lot of that is flown in daily.
So for 20000 people, you are 750 tons of food a day, and that is with the military, not some civilian populace demanding specialty foods. Well since it is implied that the colonists would not be eating and bunking like a military crew.
And with all the air purifiers and such needed, that will dramatically cut into any cargo room you think you have.
Even professionals can have a dream to be part of something greater.
There is a very sharp limit of how many would even consider going, much less actually pull up roots and do so. And don't try to say alt says... This is canon talk here. If not. Stop posting about this, as you are going to do what you want to. This thread seems to be pointed at changing canon to fit your vision.
Question: was the entire armada for each clan sent on a mission to establish these bases or could we assume specialized units (similar to the Sea Bees in WW2) were used to establish these bases. Wouldn’t it be a little overkill to send all you units out to establish these bases before having to return at a set date so that they could then invade the IS.
Lack of knowledge of the clans? The warriors would absolutely be the first on the worlds to make sure any battle is done by them. They would leave the techs to do their work, with the exception of any garrison.
The HPG network was probably for running the worlds from the clan homeworlds, so the khans did not have to be in the IS.
Second off. They did NOT send all their units off. They sent what was bid in the assault and the security for the bases. Did you even bother looking at the clans and how they did this? Stuff like this makes me wonder.
So the clans can create a logistical chain from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS but the IS cannot create one from the IS to the end of the Deep Periphery?
Purpose is the key here.
First off, there is no end of deep periphery, with the exception of the edge of the galaxy. Second. There is no reason to have logistical supply lines heading out to where no one is at. Well not all at once. As humanity pushes out, then suppliers would form in a location to serve those looking at the area. I guess history proves this concept wrong, so it is invalid for making a point against the vision.
History repeats itself, but the warning isn't complete. More then a few know the issues of not knowing the past, but still do so, as they will not make the same mistakes. Comprehension of the past is the problem. I won't do this or that, but end up doing the same damned thing. Sometimes in a different way, but the same thing.
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Requiem
08/16/19 02:26 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: And where are all these ships coming from to do so?
The ship-yards around the Luna Colony above Terra or how about the Mars ship-yards.
The Resistance? The Outer Reaches Rebellion of 2236? Aren’t we now a hundred years after the initial colonisation began?
QUOTE: It is an almost guaranteed loss.
If colonisation is a guaranteed loss why did anyone ever leave Terra? Or is this referring to a different era?
QUOTE: Guarding them on the way out, but leaving them as soon as they can,
So the Kerensky exodus fleet didn’t have any warships as they returned back into the IS after all the Jump-ships exited IS space?
QUOTE: Why are you trying to colonize the deep periphery?
To create a buffer (a Militarised Zone) between the IS and the Clans. Thus providing the IS with an early warning in the event of a renewed assault into the IS.
If you can stop the Clans within the Deep Periphery rather than in the IS are you not protecting your realm – people and industry - against any future invasion.
Also resources – rare minerals / gems;
Also to increase the size of your realm – hence its importance when compared to any other House – ego of the ruler;
QUOTE: …. but the average is 1 week. So your two year voyage to a world still isn't going to happen.
Does this mean for every one week stop you don’t allow the Drop-ships to conduct a gravity burn? – Back to the problem / issues with animals and people regarding muscle degradation.
QUOTE: Number of Ships
Variance of opinion!
QUOTE: Shows that this is NOT a real colony, but someone sponsoring a new region for them.
Wat is the definition of a colony? A new settlement, by colonists, upon a new land?
The number of people is immaterial what is important is that there has been a new settlement established upon (as in this case) an as yet unsettled piece of land.
Unfortunately the definition - Colonies tend to be small farms at first then grow. – is incredibly limited.
So, where does the company come into this other than as the owners of the property to which all colonists own a share.
And if a company did establish an industry base upon this new world together with the original colonists- why can’t you consider them a part of the expedition? – in the far future I can see many companies establishing offices within the colony – their agents would then be the first on the ground to discover any new minerals / gem deposits.
QUOTE: And it is a demand.
Really? Please note that your view and mine are vastly different on this point.
QUOTE: Not even close. If that were true, ALL worlds in the IS would have this.
True, in my view of an alternate IS all worlds colonised using my view of what a colony ship is should have a dedicated hospital as of this stature when it was first colonised – what happens in future years is the matter of speculation.
QUOTE: Moving an animal from the hold to the grav deck
Um …. Can they even fit through all the different doors? This is easier said than done especially if they make a mess. (Cleaning and Health issues!)
QUOTE: Food for 20,000 – 40,000
Storage bay – hydroponics bay – aquaculture bay – plus there is my huge gravity deck. – Problem solved.
Plus the ship is built with air purifiers in mind for 40,000 people.
QUOTE: Even professionals can have a dream to be part of something greater. There is a very sharp limit of how many would even consider going …
Who knows how many would want to go as only assumptions can be made.
QUOTE: Lack of knowledge of the clans? The warriors would absolutely be the first on the worlds to make sure any battle is done by them.
In 3049 these worlds within the deep periphery are, on the whole, empty so all the Clans’ warriors are just milling around doing nothing whist they watch the technicians working to establish new buildings etc.
This is a great use of their time …..
As for the HPG Net wasn’t this ship to ship with each ship having two in built HPG relays to allow for rapid communication between the IS and the Clans’ home worlds?
QUOTE: So the clans can create a logistical chain from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS but the IS cannot create one from the IS to the end of the Deep Periphery?
Sorry but I do not know what is being said here with regards to a logistics chain to your forward military bases in the deep periphery as a means of keeping the Clans at a distance from the IS and subsequently during the colonization of this area of space to Omi / Victor’s realm being established.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 12:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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And where are all these ships coming from to do so? Unless military run, there would not be more then a handful of ships in this region, and even then, that isn't likely they could join any sort of resistance movement. All know the clans would take anything they wanted to in the region. So how do you move anyone?
Since you missed the rest of the sentence, I thought I would put it back up.
This is not the original expansion as the clans did not exist at that time. Read and understand the whole paragraph.
If colonisation is a guaranteed loss why did anyone ever leave Terra? Or is this referring to a different era?
Not colonization, but the huge ship being sent out is the focus of this statement.
So the Kerensky exodus fleet didn’t have any warships as they returned back into the IS after all the Jump-ships exited IS space?
I guess I will have to walk you thru everything. The ships leaving is not about the exodus, but about any warships accompanying colony ships during most of the rest of the time people were going out to colonize. Your realm for instance, would not have warships in system for more then the time they need to recharge, UNLESS it is a military base.
To create a buffer (a Militarised Zone) between the IS and the Clans. Thus providing the IS with an early warning in the event of a renewed assault into the IS.
So all colonizes out here are military outposts, not any real commercial colonies. So again. Why the huge ships? You would want more then a few dropships to remain and protect the system, as a single large ship would be blown out of the sky, as you said it would be if it was a war ship. Now the clans might board and take the ship, if they KNEW it was a civilian ship. Either way, you lose it.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 12:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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If you can stop the Clans within the Deep Periphery rather than in the IS are you not protecting your realm – people and industry - against any future invasion.
If you destroy them utterly, then there is no chance of them forming again. Oh wait. That removes the need for the realm so the future of the alt doesn't work... damn. Need to rethink that.
Also to increase the size of your realm – hence its importance when compared to any other House – ego of the ruler;
All of the IS rulers have issues with their realms the size they are. A massive migration out would screw them over. Even without the number of ships issue, the costs as well as spreading out the military to cover it all would be foolish.
QUOTE: …. but the average is 1 week. So your two year voyage to a world still isn't going to happen.
Does this mean for every one week stop you don’t allow the Drop-ships to conduct a gravity burn? – Back to the problem / issues with animals and people regarding muscle degradation.
Huh? Where did you come up with this? A gravity burn can be for a few hours or to planetfall and back.
Unfortunately the definition - Colonies tend to be small farms at first then grow. – is incredibly limited.
Unfortunately, this is the truth of history. So that means not a single colony survived to populate the world with your definition.
QUOTE: And it is a demand.
Really? Please note that your view and mine are vastly different on this point.
Of course you aren't going to admit you are demanding the canon writers change the rules to fit your vision. The demand they do so have gotten worse. There is no hint of accepting that you do house rules for this and leave it. The game HAS to fit your alt. But then, I can see why you don't see or understand that being thru out the thread.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 01:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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True, in my view of an alternate IS all worlds colonised using my view of what a colony ship is should have a dedicated hospital as of this stature when it was first colonised – what happens in future years is the matter of speculation.
Again. Shifting to alt when talking about canon to avoid seeing the statement doesn't work. Try again.
QUOTE: Food for 20,000 – 40,000
Storage bay – hydroponics bay – aquaculture bay – plus there is my huge gravity deck. – Problem solved.
You think that will feed that amount of people for two years? The few crew members on board the Invader jumpship aren't fed with the ones they have. You think that having fields for the ranches, housing for the people, and all this will fit in a single ship? And then it would continue to rotate and jump as well? Imbalance would cause the ship to wobble with the grav deck moving. And without any gravity, that water would float into everything.
n 3049 these worlds within the deep periphery are, on the whole, empty so all the Clans’ warriors are just milling around doing nothing whist they watch the technicians working to establish new buildings etc.
They ran into more then a few populated worlds before getting to the edge of the IS. Most had poor forces, as they were pirate forces, or small communities started by groups leaving the IS behind.
Curious how the great tactician doesn't understand the modular buildings that are used by the military to put up bases rather quickly. And they did not have to sit while the buildings were being done. The warriors just had to make sure the world was safe and move on.
Is that why the stories focused on land fall or station assaults to gain access to the HPG network? Must really be stupid to have all those ships locked into position to keep the network up and running. Much like having a command circuit, which would mean very rapid movement of units from the home worlds.
QUOTE: So the clans can create a logistical chain from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS but the IS cannot create one from the IS to the end of the Deep Periphery?
Sorry but I do not know what is being said here with regards to a logistics chain to your forward military bases in the deep periphery as a means of keeping the Clans at a distance from the IS and subsequently during the colonization of this area of space to Omi / Victor’s realm being established.
Oh I love this one. You do not know what is being said here, but yet you were the one to say it.
Might be why it seems you don't understand most of what is going on. I would suggest reading your last post and keeping up with the conversation.
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Requiem
08/17/19 09:10 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Read and understand the whole paragraph.
If I understand what you are attempting to allude to – the IS would send colony ships into the Clan Invasion Corridor?
Why would they when they are virtually unarmed merchantmen? Even as an armed merchantman they would not get anywhere near the clan invasion front until their security can be assured.
QUOTE: Colony ships being a guaranteed loss over time
Yes they are very expensive initial cost, however when you factor in their lifespan they would more than make up for the initial cost.
As most will have a second life as a either a cruise liner – attached to a large ranching operation – or attached to the military as a mobile command and control fortress and hidden in an unknown galaxy (similar to Air Force One) where House Lords to could run to in the event of a catastrophe on the Capital World.
QUOTE: …. would not have warships in system for more than the time they need to recharge, UNLESS it is a military base.
Supposition … Logistical chains and the support elements attached to them can vary – have a look at the WW2 supply fleets from America to England. Though I would believe all supply fleets would be assigned with either a dedicated warship or vengeance dropship – aerospace fighters with Alamo 5Kt missiles.
QUOTE: So all colonizes out here are military outposts, not any real commercial colonies.
Timing …..
First, military expedition where the IS are driving the Clans back one world at a time.
After the fighting has finished on these worlds they are then followed by large businesses / individuals who are acting as a support network for the military.
And given more time they are followed by businesses / individuals who are establishing colonies for their Houses upon these worlds.
Please remember all ships would be given a security detail in they get close to the Clan space. So no I will not lose it …. It would have to be taken by force!
Also of note – if the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
QUOTE: A massive migration out would screw them over. Even without the number of ships issue, the costs as well as spreading out the military to cover it all would be foolish.
Sorry No …. If migration was such a prohibitive exercise why did anyone leave Terra in the first place? There is wealth to be had within this new realm – mineral wealth – agricultural wealth – who knows what strategical advantage a House could find within the Deep Periphery – If you want to go to the extreme how about a highly advanced lost colony world that could even rival the WOB’s secret five worlds (It is after all up to the the each game master to say what will be in their Alt Universe as canon will not have any information on this)
QUOTE: Unfortunately, this is the truth of history. So that means not a single colony survived to populate the world with your definition.
Making a comparison about a colony from the 1600’s and that of the 2100’s and beyond is again apples and oranges ….. think it through …. With the manufacture of ships that can service thousands of people – thousands will be transferred to a colony together with all the necessary equipment.
QUOTE: You think that will feed that amount of people for two years?
Yes and beyond that. – Gyroscope …..
QUOTE: They ran into more then a few populated worlds before getting to the edge of the IS.
What is the probability you would find human life in the Deep periphery? ….. Extremely remote at best ….. and yes sitting around doing nothing ……as for modular buildings … you might find that a more stable building is required … especially when they are used for ammunition.
QUOTE: Must really be stupid to have all those ships locked into position to keep the network up and running.
How else did the clans establish a HPG network? On planet – how long would this take – and if the IS forces got even one they have effectively cut the call until it is fixed – from a security standpoint wouldn’t it be better to have them on board a ship where they could move when required to do so to ensure the security of the call?
Where in the Canon writings does it say they have a command circuit between the IS and Clan space in place and up and running?
Ok what does this mean ….
Purpose is the key here.
First off, there is no end of deep periphery, with the exception of the edge of the galaxy. Second. There is no reason to have logistical supply lines heading out to where no one is at. Well not all at once. As humanity pushes out, then suppliers would form in a location to serve those looking at the area. I guess history proves this concept wrong, so it is invalid for making a point against the vision.
History repeats itself, but the warning isn't complete. More then a few know the issues of not knowing the past, but still do so, as they will not make the same mistakes. Comprehension of the past is the problem. I won't do this or that, but end up doing the same damned thing. Sometimes in a different way, but the same thing.
As I have no idea what you are attempting to say here …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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the IS would send colony ships into the Clan Invasion Corridor?
Wow. You figured out the most colonies are not sponsored by houses, but are private, small groups. No organized government doing so. No churches. Just mom and pop with a few friends looking for freedom from oppression from the IS. They do it all around the IS, not just the clan invasion corridor, Suggesting sending 20-40,000 is a sure bet the clans will do something if it is found. A 5 mile long ship will be taken or destroyed, no questions asked.
Yes they are very expensive initial cost, however when you factor in their lifespan they would more than make up for the initial cost.
A ship that would cost over a trillion c-bills will not make up for the cost of it. It is far cheaper to hire or even buy a jumpship with several dropships, and all the fuel you need to do the grand tour of the IS. And then you would have access to those ships and use them to hire out to make money.
Supposition … Logistical chains and the support elements attached to them can vary – have a look at the WW2 supply fleets from America to England. Though I would believe all supply fleets would be assigned with either a dedicated warship or vengeance dropship – aerospace fighters with Alamo 5Kt missiles.
So the IS has all these ships to leave around hundreds of planets, but yet no ships to colonize with. Get your answer straight.
And more funny, they all join up with Victor and Omi without any questions. Logic fault.
And given more time they are followed by businesses / individuals who are establishing colonies for their Houses upon these worlds.
Please remember all ships would be given a security detail in they get close to the Clan space. So no I will not lose it …. It would have to be taken by force!
The problem with the alt is a lack of time to build up colonies from even 3050.
Now second part of this. I didn't say the clans wouldn't take it by force. You will lose them. Simple opening up airlocks by force and allowing the air to escape, while the air tight elementals sit and laugh.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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Also of note – if the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
They could, if they could over come the clans forces, which normally included elementals. But the issues is numbers. One squad or even platoon of IS infantry isn't equal to a star of elementals. They may not, even if the elementals don't have their armor on. So unless you have a huge military force on a civilian dropship, it is highly unlikely it would happen.
Also of note – if the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
Seen information that it requires 2 1/2 acres of food to keep a person fed for a month 20,000 people for 2 years as you keep saying. And this isn't including what the animals would be eating. With that, 640 square acres in a square mile. And with the ranching lands, as well as water reserves and such. Nope. Won't support that many for even a few months, and that is IF the food is almost ready to harvest. Storing it isn't likely to work for this large number without multiple cargo ships.
If migration was such a prohibitive exercise why did anyone leave Terra in the first place?
Back to the initial colonization, not the houses moving people out. Get your timeframes straight. The initial colonizing from Terra was not government supported, and especially once they realized they could not control such an aggressive expansion.
Now. IF the taking of the periphery was actually that beneficial, then the states would have done it far before the clans got there. But that is the paradox. Those worlds they found close to home were not even good for the most part. So they were not anxious to go out further. Why? Because those worlds were just as bad for resources, but were even more difficult, as house military could not defend them well. Which is why the houses didn't sponsor such a push.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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Making a comparison about a colony from the 1600’s and that of the 2100’s and beyond is again apples and oranges ….. think it through
Then why the hell are you doing so? History is only important when you think it supports you? Not at all.
Do you think when they go to colonize the moon, they will have thousands of people landing in the first few days?
Why would you think this is different in the future? Oh. Because without it, the alt fails. So just like the accusations against canon, the logic doesn't hold up, yet still trying to push it.
There is wealth to be had within this new realm – mineral wealth – agricultural wealth
Comparing your vision with others, as nothing it supporting this, except your word. Supposition? Assumption?
Again. If there was, then the houses would have already been doing so long before the clans invaded.
Where in the Canon writings does it say they have a command circuit between the IS and Clan space in place and up and running?
You said it. The HPG circuit is ship based according to you. So you take a ship with an HPG and start the movement of the others to speed up ships heading in or out. Simple logic here.
How quickly can the military get up coms and such in a new location? They have quick assembly units that can be done in less then a week. Oh wait. A fully stocked and running repair depot isn't more of an issue then a HPG that is basically built, just needs a little assembly at the host area.
As for taking one, they did. Holding it for any real length of time is the problem. But then the super soldiers can single handedly beat an elemental in their armor with one punch.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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First off, there is no end of deep periphery, with the exception of the edge of the galaxy. Second. There is no reason to have logistical supply lines heading out to where no one is at. Well not all at once. As humanity pushes out, then suppliers would form in a location to serve those looking at the area. I guess history proves this concept wrong, so it is invalid for making a point against the vision.
No one would build a resupply depot in the middle of no where. Someone started a colony in an area that had access to multiple other locations people wanted to be at. THEN the suppliers would head there. Not just decide to start a world and hope others would come along to buy their supplies.
History repeats itself, but the warning isn't complete. More then a few know the issues of not knowing the past, but still do so, as they will not make the same mistakes. Comprehension of the past is the problem. I won't do this or that, but end up doing the same damned thing. Sometimes in a different way, but the same thing.
As I have no idea what you are attempting to say here …..
Of course not. The saying if you don't learn from the past, you are doomed to make the same mistakes, is only partially true. Others see the past, and think they can do it differently. They didn't comprehend the whole meaning of it. Nuking a world only does one thing. Kills all and destroys the world from being useful to anyone. So dropping one huge bomb, or multiples of smaller ones do the same thing. Different approaches, but the same end results. But someone just KNEW they wouldn't repeat that mistake, and yet did so in a different way.
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Requiem
08/18/19 06:10 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: the IS would send colony ships into the Clan Invasion Corridor?
Wow it’s amazing this is looked at from such a limited perspective and a narrow time frame as to when the colonization would occur. Why would a House or an individual group establish a colony whilst in the midst of a combat operations area? Once the area has been secured, militarily, that is another matter.
Also, if the Clans did attack wouldn’t the SLDF then defend them or retaliate.
QUOTE: A ship that would cost over a trillion c-bills will not make up for the cost of it
How did you get that figure? If you don’t like what I am suggesting them why haven’t you suggested a smaller cost affective ship at can transport, say 5,000 people and have a reduced sized internal grav. Deck – so if you want 20,000 people you have four of these ships?
The whole idea is creating a ship that can transport a large quantity of people / animals etc and cargo to establish a “proper” colony in the far future in a safe and orderly manner.
As it has been clearly demonstrated that the canon Jump and Drop Ships are quite incapable of performing this task of establishing a colony or the transport of any animals for any period of time within a zero G setting. The idea of conducting multiple burns to simulate gravity whist the battery is being charged cannot be considered to be effective.
QUOTE: So the IS has all these ships to leave around hundreds of planets, but yet no ships to colonize with. Get your answer straight.
Again, there are no figures whatsoever as to the number of ships the IS has at any period of time – this is just your assumption!
QUOTE: And more funny, they all join up with Victor and Omi without any questions. Logic fault.
Consider the American war of independence as an example – would the native Americans join with the rebel American congress or would they remain with the British … this is the similarities between the two time lines , still a logic fault?
QUOTE: The problem with the alt is a lack of time to build up colonies from even 3050.
Establishing a mass colony by approx.. 3080 is a lack of time? Sorry I am not convinced.
QUOTE: Simple opening up airlocks by force and allowing the air to escape, while the air tight elementals sit and laugh.
Errr …. Lack of understanding of ship design – ships have multiple doors all throughout the ship that can be closed at a moment’s notice to seal off a small area that has been open to the void – So they might get through one door – but they will then have to get through the next – and by then the SLDF marines, within their power armour, will be counter attacking, not to mention the internal hidden gun emplacements within the corridors will begin to open up on them.
So yes they might get in but they will soon find themselves within a kill box.
QUOTE: f the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
They could, if they could over come the clans forces, which normally included elementals. But the issues is numbers.
Beg to differ …. Canon – Steiner using orphans to place charges in space – one person one large charge upon the engine – you now have a paperweight floating in space!
QUOTE: Food stores
If as you state food takes so much area – what about a normal warship?
And more importantly what about Kerensky’s 2 year exodus to Clan Space – he had people in the millions to feed – what about that then – even given the number of ships he has there is no way the cargo holds can carry enough food for all these people?
My ship - remember the size of the cargo holds I was contemplating- plus the amount of cargo that can also be stored within any attached Drop Ships. So again I ascertain there will be enough food.
QUOTE: Back to the initial colonization, not the houses moving people out. Get your timeframes straight.
Please start reading from the start again – Looking at Colonization from the following points
1. 2100’s – start of the colonization from Terra onwards;
2. Kerensky’s exodus colonization; and
3. Post Clans being kicked out of the IS – Colonization of the Deep Periphery to the establishment of Omika / Victor’s new realm.
Initial Comonization was via the Countries of the time – Then years latter people / The Church / Industries or a mix there of began to establish their own colonies.
QUOTE: If the taking of the periphery was actually that beneficial, then the states would have done it far before the clans got there. But that is the paradox.
Sorry no, succession wars – no political will all the resources that could do are being diverted to the prosecution of the war.
It is only with the establishment of the Star League and the removal of the Clans from the IS can it be contemplated at this time.
QUOTE: those worlds were just as bad for resources, but were even more difficult, as house military could not defend them well. Which is why the houses didn't sponsor such a push.
Supposition.
QUOTE: Do you think when they go to colonize the moon, they will have thousands of people landing in the first few days?
It comes down the ships being used and the means of getting the people into orbit – one building all the way into space (a space elevator as it were) where a large ship has been manufactured – a colony ship just lands on the moon (you don’t have to build the colony on the moon) – then yes you could do it!
QUOTE: You said it. The HPG circuit is ship based according to you.
Sorry no I didn’t … comprehension reading again …. Placing a ship in a fixed spot along the “exodus road” so that they can send / receive transmissions so that the IS and Clan Space can talk to one another – Remember how they voted in the second il-Khan post Wolf / Falcon War?
Creating a supply base to supply the military as they advance –then followed by colonists – then followed by the rule of law – then followed by a declaration of independence – then followed by a new empire.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 01:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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Also, if the Clans did attack wouldn’t the SLDF then defend them or retaliate.
In the canon line? Not before they took out the jaguars. But then they would not colonize that area. Military bases is another story.
How did you get that figure? If you don’t like what I am suggesting them why haven’t you suggested a smaller cost affective ship at can transport, say 5,000 people and have a reduced sized internal grav.
The ship would be larger then a pair of warships. The fact the first one would be the costliest, and no buyers for it would mean their would not be a second. Making the entire ship except engines, fighter hangers and such rotate is another issue. Then the kicker. Where do you get the engines to move this?
As for suggesting other ships, it has been done repeatedly. You just don't like it, as it doesn't require bagging on canon or getting rules changed.
to establish a “proper” colony in the far future in a safe and orderly manner.
A proper colony is one that survived. The one you are pushing for would be the economic and military powerhouse. Given the houses limited ability to repair their own lands, this is not going to be happening more then depots. So only a very few would be done.
Again, there are no figures whatsoever as to the number of ships the IS has at any period of time – this is just your assumption!
Go reread your posts about the clan invasion. Trying to justify your numbers with the canon numbers was being done there, and you said your alt had the ships. And then the update, where the successor wars were not so devastating, so more ships and industries survived. Or did you forget that whole thread?
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ghostrider
08/18/19 01:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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would the native Americans join with the rebel American congress or would they remain with the British
You don't seem to know history that well. Native Americans were not with the British to being with. Though some of the tribes helped the Americans, but for the most part, they stayed out of it. Also, the native Americans were that. Natives. Not some colonists from the home nation.So apples and oranges
And there were a lot of British sympathizers that helped the British in the independence war.
Establishing a mass colony by approx.. 3080 is a lack of time? Sorry I am not convinced.
One colony isn't a problem, as you would be forcing people to go there. Several hundred worlds with the industrial base of something other then the CC? 30 years? The IS couldn't rebuild their industrial bases in that time. And don't try the alt bs. This is logic using canon information.
You can not argue canon is wrong with your made up numbers, as the developers had their own. They had their own, they were following.
1. 2100’s – start of the colonization from Terra onwards;
2. Kerensky’s exodus colonization; and
3. Post Clans being kicked out of the IS – Colonization of the Deep Periphery to the establishment of Omika / Victor’s new realm.
First two are canon. They thing you say it completely screwed up. And since the developers are consistently bringing out 'lost' units, there could very well be something to deal with it. But then again, small colonies grew as more people headed out.
The last isn't logical. It is just like the Jihad. Some low number no bodies, became the next boogie man. At least WOB had established resources and the HPG network to make a go of it. They had the units to begin with, and could make a load more quickly. Their tech as well as research labs was their. And the Jihad was completely stupid as to the threat they proposed. So you are going to try that horrible line with the new realm? And you say this fixes holes in canon?
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ghostrider
08/18/19 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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Initial Comonization was via the Countries of the time – Then years latter people / The Church / Industries or a mix there of began to establish their own colonies.
The discovery of the Americas was done by an explorer that got government backing, but it was the traders that were pushing for this, not the countries. They were looking for a shorter route the China to trade with them. The Traders started colonies by putting up trading posts so incoming ships wouldn't have to search for the hunters wares, nor try to sell them things after finding them. Then towns grew up around it. Most colonists were not country organized, they were small groups that fled Europe to get away from prosecution.
Now if you are talking the alt, there is no number basis printed, so there is no way to suggest that is the way it has to be.
Sorry no, succession wars – no political will all the resources that could do are being diverted to the prosecution of the war.
It is only with the establishment of the Star League and the removal of the Clans from the IS can it be contemplated at this time.
Actually, there was more then a few times that there was no active war. Most of the time frame before 3029 was one of them. And again. This sounds like nations sponsoring the push. And to restate the counter. The houses didn't fix their own worlds, even though they had the resources and reason to do so. Some, deep in their own territories. The big push from the Helm core had them start doing so.
QUOTE: those worlds were just as bad for resources, but were even more difficult, as house military could not defend them well. Which is why the houses didn't sponsor such a push.
Supposition.
Maybe reading some of the information about pirates in that area would show the facts. But that goes against your alt, so won't happen.
QUOTE: You said it. The HPG circuit is ship based according to you.
Sorry no I didn’t
They had land based facilities for the second vote. But you didn't read the rest of that statement. A ship with an HPG could load up a few dropships, and jump to the first location. Since that ship would have a fully charge jump core, it would act as a command circuit all the way to the IS. But some how this part of the statement was missed.
There is no where in canon that said the entire HPG link was ship borne.
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Requiem
08/18/19 07:29 PM
1.158.134.157
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QUOTE: In the canon line?
In the Canon line this didn’t occur – thus we are within my Alt. History
Thus rather than attacking just one clan it is a broad frontal assault – mass terrorist attacks upon clan held worlds - mass attacks upon their Jump Ship transport units – whilst their rear logistical support units come under assault all at the same time.
Thus they are forced to retreat or face annihilation one world at a time – and over time they are forced to retreat all the way back through the Deep Periphery.
QUOTE: The ship would be larger than a pair of warships.
So? – for a house rule modify the construction rules to allow multiple engines (two, three or four) attached to one ship –most ships have multiple engines working together - and saying no one would buy it, this is a bit of an exaggeration based upon your own opinion.
QUOTE: A proper colony is one that survived. The one you are pushing for would be the economic and military powerhouse.
40,000 people are in no way an economic and military powerhouse – it is just a large town.
This will be how colonies will be formed in the future – mass migration.
In the past the limiting factor was the number of people that could be placed on a wooden ship – the food – the medical supplies and the weather.
In the future the limiting factor again would only be the size of the ship available to ensure the safe travel of the crew and their animals.
In an era where warships are being produced building a comparable civilian vessel has always occurred so why would they not be created in the future? Sorry but I have yet to read any reason other than economic – and it has yet to be explained how animals can be transported in large numbers to effective create a viable herd utilizing Drop Ship technology – there must be a ship that has never been introduced to allow this as caged transport will not work (again I recommend you to have a look at this online) there must be some kind of free range grav. deck approach when it comes to the transportation of animals. So if the cannon will to provide one the fans must!
Side note – Mercenary contact – Western setting – riding security detail to get the herd to the spaceport transfer them to another planet and then take them to the new cattle ranch.
How can this be done safely given the limited technology within the canon setting?
QUOTE: Or did you forget that whole thread?
Of course not - this is just your assumption as to the level of damage and what is and what is not there. I for one want to have them there so the story can proceed ……
QUOTE: native Americans
You do realise that native American can also be interpreted as the former British colonists who had children of their own and these decedents are the ones who are rising up against the English? Apples and apples ….
QUOTE: Establishing a mass colony by approx.. 3080 is a lack of time?
The ability to create mass colonies are based upon the following factors – technology, people and ships available – how many new ‘Mech desins being produced do we see post clan invasion / compared with the number of new designs prior to the clan invasion – this is evidence enough the IS was mass producing industries – if the people within the age of the Stare League can create 100 new ‘Mech / vehicle lines why can’t the Star League create mass industries for approximately 100 worlds – sorry I don’t see the problem.
Economic development of virgin worlds would entice the majority of all major corporations into this investment – and where they go the people will go with them.
Again the Star League is not forcing people to go into the Deep Periphery!
QUOTE: You cannot argue canon is wrong with your made up numbers, as the developers had their own.
Then what are they? There is only an approximation that can be gleamed due to the 4th SW – however even that is not an exact figure as when the Helm Memory core was opened you could have thought this would have led to the creation of new merchantman ships – not just warships.
So how many could have been made within 30-40 years throughout the entire IS whist simultaneously creating new warships.
And who is to say new ship yards are also being created with the assistance of the new Star League – thus production numbers go up again
As is this not one of the governments duties – civil /military construction? Just because the writers within the canon forgot this, together with almost everything else, doesn’t mean I have to.
QUOTE: small colonies grew as more people headed out.
A starting colony of 40,000 is small when you factor into it the technology available!
QUOTE: And you say this fixes holes in canon?
As far as I am concerned …. Yes.
QUOTE: The discovery of the Americas was done by an explorer that got government backing,
Sorry the Vikings got there first.
QUOTE: There was more than a few times that there was no active war.
True, and yet where were the majority of the people looking – at the border with their enemy expecting a new succession war to start any day.
It is not until the expulsion of the Clans do you see the peoples vision shift to that of the Deep Periphery and the possibilities that lie out there – hence the migration.
QUOTE: Maybe reading some of the information about pirates in that area would show the facts. But that goes against your alt, so won't happen.
And for every known world within the IS it is estimated that there is 1,000 unexplored worlds – so can anyone say, on the balance of probability, there are not new worlds to be found that will provide a liveable environment?
QUOTE: They had land based facilities for the second vote.
Page number and book please!
Question whilst the ship was able to be a command circuit what happens to the HPG communications relay in the mean time? Sorry but no, the relay HPG relay would take precedence – the convoy would move itself as a convoy has how many ships in it and thus dow many dozens of Drop Ships (we can say more than the few Drop Ships the HPG ship could take if you wanted a command circuit).
QUOTE: There is no where in canon that said the entire HPG link was ship borne.
Really?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 08:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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In the Canon line this didn’t occur – thus we are within my Alt. History
Remember this from now on. The next time you say canon is wrong, I will remind you that NOTHING can be compared, as the alt is Apples to Grapefruit. So stop doing so.
Now back to the bs of knowing what the clans had, as it would not be the same as when the Dragoons had their meeting. You are using the ends to justify changes that would not be known. Attack all the clans? Yeah. With out knowing how many forces they actually have, this would be folly. But that is something you just have not conceived of. This is very much saying the outcome of WWII was wrong and they did something entirely else instead. Like Japan knowing the bomb was coming and evacuated the cities before it was dropped. Because we know now what happened, so therefore we can alter history.
for a house rule modify the construction rules to allow multiple engines
Again. You suggest canons is wrong, then change to fictitious information to try and justify your alt. And when I said the alt could do this, and the rules didn't need to be changed to fit, the answer was yes it has to change. There is no other way this can be done. Most of the thread is about this.
and saying no one would buy it, this is a bit of an exaggeration based upon your own opinion.
Yet the cost efficiency of buying such a behemoth, that could well be the biggest lemon in history has nothing to do with no one being the first to buy it. Wow. How it flip flops when you need it too.
This will be how colonies will be formed in the future – mass migration.
There is massed migration in the canon. It is not one ship, nor is it the first ship. But didn't you say that after the initial colony is built, the rest is immigration, not colonization? Get your own definitions right.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 08:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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and it has yet to be explained how animals can be transported in large numbers to effective create a viable herd utilizing Drop Ship technology
It is done the same way you move people, only the animals are more contained. Sedatives when they get to the jumpship, so they don't freak out. Much like a lot of pets get when traveling in an air plane.
And you are suggesting there is no tech to deal with this, yet it is not written anywhere that is isn't available. There are meds given to those that get sick when traveling in space. Hmmm... Hard to think they would have something for animals. Oh yeah. That destroys this complaint.
You do realise that native American can also be interpreted as the former British colonists who had children of their own and these decedents are the ones who are rising up against the English?
Really? The term native Americans deals with those that were native of the lands. Not immigrants that were nationalized or even born generations after their ancestors moved here.
The ability to create mass colonies are based upon the following factors – technology, people and ships available – how many new ‘Mech desins being produced do we see post clan invasion / compared with the number of new designs prior to the clan invasion – this is evidence enough the IS was mass producing industries – if the people within the age of the Stare League can create 100 new ‘Mech / vehicle lines why can’t the Star League create mass industries for approximately 100 worlds – sorry I don’t see the problem.
Economic development of virgin worlds would entice the majority of all major corporations into this investment – and where they go the people will go with them.
Why wouldn't the houses invest trillions of c-bills to create a realm in the periphery, when they can't rebuild their own worlds? Send all those resources out to make something that could be wiped out without any chance of saving it? So have you invested in the new mars housing yet? I hear they will be very nicely furnished.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 09:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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QUOTE: You cannot argue canon is wrong with your made up numbers, as the developers had their own.
Then what are they?
Again. Ask the developers. And I have yet to see any numbers from you. I hear there are enough ships to invade the periphery and the clans home worlds, yet you say there aren't enough to colonize the same area. And you can't figure out how the logic holes of canon are not in the alt? Maybe taking a few months off of the board and reread the entire working and compare those to canon, you might see it. Well that is if you actually do it without the rose colored glasses.
And who is to say new ship yards are also being created with the assistance of the new Star League – thus production numbers go up again
As is this not one of the governments duties – civil /military construction? Just because the writers within the canon forgot this, together with almost everything else, doesn’t mean I have to.
Economics 101. You need buyers in order to succeed with increased production. The cost of the ships limited just who could buy them. The houses were the main buyers. Not the only ones, but with the limited number of monoliths made, house Davion bought half of those made, with the other houses buying the rest. So how many commercial ventures were buying them? And you think they would lay out 100's of billions if not trillions of c-bills for this colony ship you want. Logic failure.
QUOTE: The discovery of the Americas was done by an explorer that got government backing,
Sorry the Vikings got there first.
So where were the governments pushing to find the Americas? Oh yeah. They didn't. So yet again, you answered your own complaints after the fact.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 09:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Clans established HPG stations between both end points, to keep a direct communication. These stations also were responsible of unloading the parts of the Road to the ships who did the travel. The only one of these stations known was Pivot.
Exodus Road in the wiki.
Not ships in orbit but stations. Could be space stations, as there was one in the Highlander book dealing with part of the routes, but they were NOT mobile stations.
QUOTE: There is no where in canon that said the entire HPG link was ship borne.
Really?
Then were is this information. Oh yeah. The building of stations negates this... hmmm...
And for every known world within the IS it is estimated that there is 1,000 unexplored worlds
Other then your alt, where does this information reside? There are still maps of the Rim World Republic, so most of that region was explored. It is possible, some of the destroyed worlds might be coming back to life, but again. The books suggest it is pretty barren out there. Not completely as the Oberon nation had some decent worlds.
And again. The math says that your moving animals out into the periphery in one shot would be less then a year. 1000 light years, which is clan worlds distance, it 34 jumps. 52 weeks in a year.. hmmm. I will grant that that is a straight line, and assumes there is a star you can get to, but even with figuring that in, a year is about max.
That is unless you are being stupid and taking a the entire colony while exploring for a place to set down.
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Requiem
08/18/19 09:47 PM
1.158.134.157
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Quote: Attack all the clans? Yeah. With-out knowing how many forces they actually have,
Intelligence operations of house units are more sophisticated than the BS you are alluding to …
First – Black Boxes would have been distributed widely throughout the FC – given the level of antipathy ComStar has for both FS / LC
Second – Retreating forces would have been debriefed i.e. after action reports – gun cameras footage is pulled and analysed – photographic evidence / long distance shots as to invading forces fleets – understanding fleet numbers can be gathered for each Clan
Third – Historical Evidence – comparing warship pictures with historical documents regarding warships
Fourth – Partisan / Commando intelligence – snatch and grab of both Clan computer memory cards as well as Clan individuals
Fifth – defectors to the IS
Sixth – Logistical units – captured
Seventh – Wolfs Dragoon debrief as to standard formation
So, yes, given time I can reasonably say what each clan has brought with them – I can also predict their next worlds as we know their ultimate target – Terra (again from Wolfs Dragoons)
With all this information the Intelligence Corp should have recognised early on …
1. Post Turtle Bay – Nuclear weapons will be utilised against all warships from then on – that is unless the Clans request a change to the Ares Rules of War
2. The Clans reliance on Jump ship transport – remove that and they would be stuck
3. An understanding of the idea of Sikos and a brief understanding as to the numbers they could possibly produce – Loss Depletion Report here should have indicated that the clans can’t survive attrition warfare – change in tactics say from the end of the year of peace (The Phony War)
This is all a natural progression as the level of information increases over time.
Quote: for a house rule modify the construction rules to allow multiple engines
HOUSE RULES
Quote: Purchase
Just because in your game you say it is a lemon does not mean me and others will adopt them with our game.
I have yet to read any alternate method that makes any sense as to the mass migration /colonization as written.
Quote: It is done the same way you move people, only the animals are more contained. Sedatives when they get to the jump ship, so they don't freak out. Much like a lot of pets get when traveling in an air plane.
Does this mean all animals will be kept in a permanent state of sedation and within a box all the time during the journey – Kerensky’s exodus took two years? What about even for a short trip of one month? - Sorry but again this does not make any sense when transporting animals – sedatives on take-off and landing yes I could see that – but for the remainder of the journey – sorry no at all.
Quote: Send all those resources out to make something that could be wiped out without any chance of saving it
Again they are being protected not only by house units – they are also being protected by the SLDF. What I am suggesting does make sense – Loss forgone theory – ego of the house lord – making strategical as well as tactical sense to create this buffer state – projected win-fall for corporations – new land for civilians to purchase cheaply
Plus if we go back to the reason Battletech does anything – with the introduction of this new realm it will create wars in the future.
Consider their position
Vs. The Exiled Clans
Vs. FRR, DC, FC, Bears, and even possibly the Cats
Given a long term view would it not be aim of the game developers to establish a large number of new states along the Exodus Road so that more wars can be fought not only in the IS and Clan Space – but within all these future realms?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/19 02:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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Time to end this bs.
In your words.
Your alt is crap as it doesn't conform to mine.
It is that simple idea is why understanding of anything is impossible on your end.
Intelligence operations of house units are more sophisticated than the BS you are alluding to …
Remember this from now on. The next time you say canon is wrong, I will remind you that NOTHING can be compared, as the alt is Apples to Grapefruit. So stop doing so.
I have yet to read any alternate method that makes any sense as to the mass migration /colonization as written.
Refusal to accept that which doesn't fit your vision.
Last time I say this.
I will remind you that NOTHING can be compared with canon, as the alt is Apples to Grapefruit. So stop doing so.
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Cray
08/19/19 06:31 PM
97.101.136.19
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Well, on that note, it's time to end this thread. Don't pick up the topic for a while, folks.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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