KamikazeJohnson
01/07/02 10:16 PM
209.202.47.12
|
This post was inspired by the long, raging debate on the "designs" board about whether or not the 'Mech in question is "Munchy". In light of that debate, I decided to start this thread, dedicated to Munchkinism and What It Means To Me
In general, when someone says "Munchkin", I think of a new or immature player who feels that he is or ought to be invincible, and values his own brand of fun over the spirit of the game and the general enjoyment of the other players. A Munchkin lives by the philosophy, "If I can't win, I'm not going to play."
So a "Munchy" 'Mech, in my IMHO, is one which:
1) is invincible under the given circumstances
2) is designed by a Munchkin to have Munchkin-style fun
3) is a natural choice of Munchkins, since it embodies their philosophy and style of play.
Now it's fun time hehehe...the List:
A Munchkin:
--pilots an invincible 'Mech
--has Piloting -5 and Gunnery -7, so he never falls and never misses
--plays only if he can win, or, if he starts to lose, makes sure no one else has any fun either
--stalls the game for hours arguing that, since his 'Mech is in the water, it should be able to SWIM at least as fast as it runs
If anyone has any additions to The List, Munchkin anecdotes, or a completely different idea of Munchkinism, I'd love to read it!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
01/07/02 10:22 PM
63.173.170.31
|
Okay here are some:
Someone who exploits the loopholes to get the most out a mech, even though the other players are not using similar mechs.
Someone who uses tech that is unbalancing to the game, example would be the EMP warhead, nice, but not really balanced.
Someone who uses repeative weapons over and over on a design, like four plus Gauss Rifles etc...just to get maximum firepower.
Someone who takes TC+Pulse all the time, and use it to target the Center torso of ever mech they run into.
Someone who has the ultimate LAM with every advanced weapon they cram on the thing and still have it work.
Folks who cheat knowningly....yet are very sure no one is going to catch them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightmare
01/07/02 11:14 PM
194.251.240.107
|
People who use the BV system to design mechs with low
BV but high effectiveness in the game. This assumes the
two sides will be using BV to balance the game, obviously.
People who wish to pick only certain Level 3 rules from the
MaxTech book, specifically those who benefit their forces.
For example trying to get the expanded movement modifiers
chart when fielding 10/15 moving light mechs. While the enemy only has a few 5/8 mediums...
Designing special-purpose Clan mechs just because they`d
be cool, and then using them too. How would you like a 35t
Clanner with 8/12 move, TC and EI, and a full arsenal of ER Small Lasers? It`s intended use is for running up behind enemy mechs and targetting some rear torso location.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
KamikazeJohnson
01/07/02 11:27 PM
209.202.47.12
|
>>a 35t Clanner with 8/12 move, TC and EI, and a full arsenal of ER Small Lasers? It`s intended use is for running up behind enemy mechs and targetting some rear torso location. <<
lol that seems to be a favourite anti-Munchkin idea...I mentioned it on the "Designs" board, Karagin mentioned the tactic, you mentioned it...I did a test to see just how bad the situation can get...a 50 ton Clan mech can move 7/11, and carry 16 ER Small Lasers with a TC. At the same time, it has Armor Factor 163, just in case it has to face some return fire. Nasty! I didn't test what a 35 could carry...
BTW...I named the 50-tonner the MCK-1A MUNCHKIN :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Black_Phoenix
01/07/02 11:59 PM
207.252.105.156
|
*In high-pitched voice* "We represent the Battletech Guild, the Battletech Guild, the Battletech Guild. We represent the Battletech Guild. We wish to weclome you to Munchkinville."
Proof that Wizard of Oz-itis is very contagous. (Or that I've seen the movie one too many times) (Mmmmmm, poppy fields) Did you know that in the orginal "WoO" book they actually had "opium field?" It's true.
Please ignore me. For your own safety. I fear that any replies to this post will degrade the shaky foundation of my mental stability. :D
History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.
-Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz
|
NathanKell
01/08/02 12:27 AM
24.44.238.62
|
LOL, I keep saying this, but...
To me this is two separate questions:
1. Attempting to win (including using exploits)
2. Attempting to, when losing, spoil the experience (vs. the legitimate "take them with me" attitude, which, though attempting to spoil the battle does not spoil the experience.
I have much less trouble with the former than the latter.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
01/08/02 12:45 AM
24.44.238.62
|
RE KJ's list:
1. That depends on how strict a definition of "invincible" you use. If it's quite literally invincible no matter the force in opposition (due to an exploit, probably) then yes, this is pure munch. If it's due to good design, and is thus invincible in reasonable matches (i.e., balanced forces, etc.) then it's not in the munch category IMO.
2. Check!
3. I have a bit of trouble with this (partly due to the fact that, in the absence of anything to the contrary I assume what you mean as style of play is what Karagin has been harping on, constant alpha-striking (or near-alpha, like the Annie we were talking about)). In some situations this is indeed the most sound tactic--sometimes all the fancy footwork and field work in the world won't save you from a pitched battle--usually with players of equal skill and opposing forces of equal size. In that case you do indeed need an Awesome-like machine. Now, something like the below-mentioned TC-ERSL-8/12 machine has an even tinier niche (hello long-range fire!) and is thus closer to munchkin nirvana. But it's also definitely not invincible, and thus farther away. So, it seems to me that, unless the mech in question blatanly exploits loopholes it's not munchy, just effective (though perhaps not effective in too many scenarios).
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
01/08/02 12:58 AM
24.44.238.62
|
RE Karagin's list:
1. Even if the other players are (then, of course, they're *all* munchkins, or at least really bored)
2. Tech, of course, can be balanced by other factors. It's munchy to use something unbalancing and refuse to have some other area unbalanced in return.
3. This I take issue with. First of all, if the goal is maximum firepower, you've got to sacrifice other areas (and thus you suffer, and things are rebalanced). Second, if that's the goal, using only one type of weapon is usually not the way to go (IE 2x PPC and 7x ML beats 3x PPC and less armor and speed or whatever).
<snip, see below>
Last one: CHECK!
As to the middle ones--as long as things are balanced, it's not munchy. The hallmark of a munchkin, in my opinion, is a refusal to balance advantages with disadvantages (where ever the two are). You seem overly focused on mech design; it is only munchy, IMO, to refuse to balance an effective mech by an unskilled pilot or unfavorable victory conditions, not the simple act of using an effective mech. That's qualified, however, by whether the effectiveness is due to sound design or loopholes; if the latter, then yes, that's munchy.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
KamikazeJohnson
01/08/02 01:16 AM
209.202.47.12
|
You're right, there are two seperate points here, but IMHO, both are symptoms of Munchkinism, as both (frequently) indicate a new and/or immature player (like the GM who sets up an impossible scenario and then gloats when the players can't beat it)
I don't object to a player using loopholes in the rules, as long as the "surprise" result is reasonable and realistic, but if the loophole leads to very unrealistic results, it becomes kind of a "gentleman's agreement" not to use it, and thereby stick to the spirit of the game.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
01/08/02 01:34 AM
209.202.47.12
|
1) True, an invincible (superior design) 'Mech in itself isn't munchy, but ,IMO, it's a true Munchkin tactic to CHOOSE the 'Mech which is obviously superior under the given circumstances, as this makes the outcome a foregone conclusion, which defeats the purpose of the game.
3) I consider the TC-ERSL 'Mech/tactic munchy not so much because it's unstoppable as because it's so incredibly annoying. Kind of like facing 4 lances of SRM Carriers. And don't forget that a true Munchkin, after blowing out your back armor for the fourth battle in a row, would undoubtedly talk your ear off about his "superior skill" etc. As has been said before, it's not so much the 'Mech as the user
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
01/08/02 02:49 AM
63.173.170.202
|
Glad to know you don't like all my ideas on this, but then again since the topic is NOT set in stone as to what makes someone or something a munchkin or munchkin design, I will stick with my take on it.
Hope that is ok with you, since I wouldn't want to upset some by not listening to them and following their ideas as 100% all powerful and great ideas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Korbel
01/08/02 09:22 AM
206.152.237.32
|
wow flashback... I played with a kid that had 6 ER PPC's and happened to forget to record his heat... then it turned out he had D Heat sinks written into ever free crit space.. but when we went over tonnage by tonnage on his mech he didn't allocate tonnage for any extra heat sinks... oh yeah it was a 1/2 100 tonner with flip arms with hardened armor and a TC also no tonnage allocated... since then we designed & printed off his sheets just before the games at my house...
how about the 25-35 ton LAM with Narc & TAG I think jump was 25 in air-mech mode. Combined with 3 mechs carring 2 Arrow 4's each and 4 mechs with 4 LRM-20's with extra tons of Thunder munitions. oh yeah with LVL 3 movement mods. Would you consider that Munchy? I am almost ashamed to admit I was the munchkin on that one
|
Karagin
01/08/02 10:10 AM
63.173.170.208
|
Point is we have all made munchkin mechs at one time or anyother, and even when using them we have all be raked over the coals by our friends for doing so.
The idea is we KNOW they are munchy and are willing to admit it...it's the folks who can't or won't admit that their pet mech is a munchy design and leave it at that...
As for the cheating by mistake or what not, I once played against a guy who, took a custom SPIDER and made some mods...since the game was running with a 400 ton limit, I didn't really check to see what his mechs actually had on them, going more for the battle will tell me idea...
The battle went well for the most part, out the 5 mechs I was using I had only lost a two of them and had hurt a couple of his really good. Things is this SPIDER mech was not being phased by hits even though it had taken 3 Gauss hits and several LRM and LL hits...the battle ended with him retreating off board and going home. That is when I got to really look at the mech...after sitting down with a calaculator and some paper, I found out I was fighting a 180 ton mech.
When I pointed it out to the person later on, he didn't take it too well, and that is when I found he was know for fudging the rules or as one of the guys who played Car Wars with him a couple of times said, he cheats, but acts like it's your fault for letting.
This person ranks up there with the folks who fudge armor damage, you know not marking all of the damage, shaving off a point or two or double marking the same spot twice. Or those that know they don't have two tons of ammo, but key firing the gun anyway...
The same ones who, fire a weapon that was destoryed three turns back, hoping that no one notices, since the chaos of the game may make them forget what was taken out...
The list of munchkin cheaters goes on and on and on....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
01/09/02 04:25 AM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>four plus Gauss Rifles<<<
That's what we call "character!"
Any 'Mech with that many Gauss Rifles is seriously hurting in the combat department.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Nightmare
01/09/02 07:58 AM
194.251.240.107
|
(snip)As for the cheating by mistake or what not (snip)
There was a mech in the Solaris VII boxed set named the
Juggernaut, a custom-built arena mech. Well, my MechWarrior
character once fought it in the Factory arena, using his somewhat customized Marauder against it. After the battle,
which I lost, I discovered the opponent/GM had counted the
Juggernaut`s DHS twice! 12(24) had become 24(48) so it had
no real heat troubles in the arena fighting - compared to a Marauder, that is. Refighting the match still resulted in defeat
for me, though. That Buggernaut had 16 machine guns just
for use with the arena fighting system. Munchkin? Hell yes!
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Karagin
01/09/02 01:24 PM
63.173.170.29
|
Oh brother...character...okay...right I see, sure ok.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/09/02 01:25 PM
63.173.170.29
|
Most of the mech in the Solairs areans are munchy...though some do make good scouts once you tweak them a bit and get rid of the munch....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/09/02 01:49 PM
63.173.170.29
|
You play your way and the rest of us will play ours...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/09/02 01:51 PM
63.173.170.29
|
I have said what I mean, I have explained it and YOU won't listen. So how you grow up and learn to understand what is put in front of you. The mech is mucnhy, if you need more explanation see all the posting about it. Otherwise shut. up.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightmare
01/09/02 02:04 PM
194.251.240.107
|
Well, the Marauder was all my MechWarrior character happened to own...
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Karagin
01/09/02 02:06 PM
63.173.170.29
|
Since you broke the rules back a few posting, your point out my breaking them is childish and you know it.
And yes it (the mech) is munchy IMVHO.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/09/02 02:50 PM
63.173.170.230
|
If you say so on the first part...and you should keep the second part in mind yourself.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
NathanKell
01/09/02 04:34 PM
24.44.238.62
|
In reply to:
Glad to know you don't like all my ideas on this, but then again since the topic is NOT set in stone as to what makes someone or something a munchkin or munchkin design, I will stick with my take on it.
Hope that is ok with you, since I wouldn't want to upset some by not listening to them and following their ideas as 100% all powerful and great ideas.
This is indeed fine with me.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
01/09/02 04:36 PM
24.44.238.62
|
In reply to:
Oh brother...character...okay...right I see, sure ok.
And this is somehow easier to say than "I disagree" ?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
01/09/02 04:38 PM
24.44.238.62
|
Indeed.
Actually, I guess you could simply define a munchkin as someone who "intentionally spoils the experience" no matter in which way the spoilage occurs.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
01/09/02 04:39 PM
24.44.238.62
|
Indeed. And, if the players are in general a good bunch this certainly does not "spoil the experience" and may in fact increase the fun, even for the (losing) winners: "Wow, he sure put up a hard fight, but I/we took him!"
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
01/09/02 04:40 PM
24.44.238.62
|
In reply to:
You play your way and the rest of us will play ours...
Which is indeed the best place to leave the discussion.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Korbel
01/09/02 06:18 PM
206.152.237.32
|
for the women of course... hehe
|
Nightmare
01/10/02 02:59 AM
194.251.240.107
|
Eh...not in the company he was moving around with.
The other PCs were the kind that House Kurita
didn`t even want assigned to the Legions of Vega.
Guys who only wanted to blow stuff up and have fun
while doing so.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Acolyte
01/10/02 05:36 AM
142.179.31.172
|
Ah. I beleive they would be hired as "deniable assets". Used for jobs that the government wanted done but didn't want to be associated with. Maybe also "expendable front line troops".
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|