Karagin
01/30/02 04:52 AM
63.173.170.42
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Alright here is one for you folks to discuss:
The war stalemates, and stays that way for 5 years, the common folks and the soldiers grow tired of the fighting and basically stop fighting all together, now the question is does this end the civil war and we see the FC go into the FS and LA or would Victor and Katherine keep at it with their loyal troops who are still itching to prove who is right?
This is assuming of course that the evidence Victor has on his sister has either been used, but proven by her to be a lie or it was used and nothing really happen since the Lyrans to it to be propoganda etc...
So what do you think would happen? Would the SL court step in to settle things at this point or still stay out of it? How would the other houses react or act?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/30/02 11:33 AM
63.173.170.201
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Is it possible for you to simple comment on the given what if's without trying to tear apart the thread?
Or do you find some thing interesting in doing that? The idea is simple, after a while the common folks do get tired of the fighting, as stated, so please either work with the given points here or don't particapte in the thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
01/30/02 12:15 PM
209.202.47.12
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If you look at history, it will appear that humanity has never been tired of war. However, individuals, groups, even entire nations have had periods of war-weariness where they strove for peace, while full-scale war happened elsewhere. The scenario is valid...the FC had once been a single nation, so it will be seen, at least to some people, that they are fighting their own brothers-in-arms. It is not unreasonable to expect that at some point (5 years may be too short, but the exact time frame is fairly irrelevent, I think) there would be an extended break in the fighting, with neither side eager to start it again, at which point they pursue diplomatic means. There may still be wars elsewhere, there may be people who want to keep fighting, but at least for a time, diplomacy may seem like a valid solution.
Now...to the point in question...I haven't read many of the books, and I don't have the more recent Compendiums, TROs, FMs, etc., so I don't really have the knowledge to make a guess about what would happen next. All I can really say is that, as Bansee's post implies, any solution is likely to be short-lived. A temporary peace may be achieved, but sooner or later, the IS will be back to "business as usual"
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/16/07 10:52 PM
70.123.166.36
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Okay any takers?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
01/17/07 01:03 AM
203.206.46.176
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Given that it dragged troops personally loyal to Victor into the fray as well as involving his Com Guard, odds are the fightig would not have simply ground to a halt. Once comitted to New Avalon, it was only going to end one way, unless someone got a lucky headcap on Victor.
Thing was, Katherine was always kinda screwed in the military department. Victor was a better strategist than anyone on the Lyran side of the fence, and he could tap luminaries like Anastasius Focht, Caradoc Trevana, Kai Allard-Liao, and the Kuritas for assistance. Quintus Allard was still firing, and very much against Katherine, who never really had that good a grip on the Davion half of the empire she wanted.
Essentially, she was holding the Federated Suns only via embargoes, blockades, and gaining the personal "loyalty" of some very shady characters.
She over-reached. If she'd stayed in the Lyran Commonwealth, she may have been able to grind things out and remain secure, as long as she could also come up with a way to deal with the Jade Falcons. If Nondi had been able to ride herd on Sharon Byran, that may have happened, so long as the Wolves on the border (both arms of the Clans) did their thing.
That, right there, is the key turning point. As soon as she left Tharkad, she lost the Civil War. Everything else was just a countdown to that event.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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PsihoKekec
04/12/07 08:08 AM
85.10.21.32
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Actualy FCCW could be characterised as strategic duel between Jackson Davion and Ardan Sortek with interference by Katherine and Victor (plus Hasek and Sandoval). In this conflict Victor was more or less the figurehead to which the allied troops rallied rather than actuall leader as he spent most of time evading pursuers and then mourning for Omi before embarking the last offensive (first we take Tikonov then we take New Avalon).
Idea that troops on both sides would simply stop fighting is unrealistic. It never happened in history. True, one of the reasons for October revolution was that soldiers had enough of war, but those on the other side did not and so it would be in this case, if soldiers on one side would have enough of it, the soldiers on the other side would still have enough fight in them to take the opportunity.
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Askhati
04/14/07 02:34 PM
196.208.94.65
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As a prime example of a never-ending civil war, look at Israel/Palestine. They have been kicking the crap out of each other for almost sixty years, and they are NOT going to stop anytime soon. Blame religion for that one, actually...
Evolve or DIE!
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Karagin
04/15/07 01:33 AM
24.26.220.4
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You guys are both right, I still stand by the comment I made that the FCCW was rushed, FASA and FP had the chance to do more with it, carry it out longer and let it be the major catilist that changed things or caused the Jihad to happen, but instead it became good vs bad, the good in white hats and the bad in black hats...along with all the cliche plots that went with that style of plup fiction.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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PsihoKekec
04/16/07 03:38 AM
85.10.21.32
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Well FCCW was the mayor catalyst for Jihad.
- it allowed WOB to expand into Chaos March, leading to confrontation with AMC and thus events on Outreach and Northwind
- it lifted the attention of most intelligence agencies from WOB allowing them to expand their power base
- it brought decision from Lyra Alliance and Federated Suns to abandon Star League, contributing to it's demise, thus turning WOB on Inner Sphere
- it gutted LAAF and AFFS, opening both realms to WOB agression
- it loosed control over dukes of Skye and Capellan march, allowing them to start playing their own game of thrones
As for black&white portrayal I must say that from military point of view it was done well, from political point of view I would prefered more deviousnes from allied side, but that is my own preference (spoiled by Martin's Song of Ice and Fire). Basicly they made Katherine clasic villain and Victor was prince on the white horse, I'm rather good in history but I can't remember any civil war in which one side was so pure.
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Karagin
04/16/07 05:55 AM
24.26.220.4
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From a military POV the FCCW was a laughing joke, every single thing that could be done wrong was done wrong by both sides, sorry but the writting for the FCCW needed more work and more thinking.
When I said the FCCW could have been more of the push into what become MWDA or what it's being called now, I was suggesting that the Jihad SHOULD have happen WHILE the FCCW was going on, which could have drug the other states into the fighting and thus the Fifth Succession War is started and the out come could have been better.
As you said no side in a Civil War is prue and the writers expect us to believe in this case things were so cut and dry that we had such evil folks on the one side and the other side had such outstanding morle fiber to do no wrong. Sorry it doesn't wash.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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PsihoKekec
04/16/07 08:48 AM
85.10.21.32
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Jihad starting douring FCCW? Interesting idea. Than woblies could use pursue divide and coquer strategy without Gottdammerung aproach (which is major turn off for me). This way they could exploit the internal strife in Draconis Combine and Free Worlds League, we could have continuation of Capellan expansion and possible confrontation with woblies...
As for military POV, well why do you think civil wars are considered the worst kinds of war? Almost every civil war was won through atrition rather than excellent leadership on one side. Ardan Sortek and Jackson Davion did most of things right, but Victor and Katherine bungled up quite a few decisions, however it was same in 2.WW and you don't see anyone complaining about it.
Well, armchair agenerals are debating nonstop what could have been done, but this was more than 60 years ago. Anyhow in leadership is never optimal in war and it gets even worse in civil war due to all the politics and emotions involved, not to mention that commanders know eachother adding to predictability of military operations.
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