Karagin
02/12/02 11:46 PM
63.173.170.144
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Okay let me explain what happen and then I would like to know how you folks would handle the situation or not have handled it.
During a game of Battletech, the following happen, a Victor VTR-9K, was hit by a Clan ER PPC, 15 damage to the right torso, the receiving player, marks the damage on the Right torso which has a max of 23 to the front, (note we were using the HMPro print outs). That torso had taken 7 points of damage from a missile hit earlier in the game and with the 15 points from the ER PPC hit should have been down to two points of armor left...right?
Two turns later the right torso of the Victor is hit for 7 points of damage from a Clan Medium Pulse laser off of an Adder. Now logic says that having one two points on the outside armor would mean five points transfers into the internal sturcture. Well that is not what the person piloting the Victor claims, he flat out told the Clan player "No chance of Crit, and no armor breach". To which the Clan player has the look of utter shock on his face. Once he recovered, he asked to see the sheet of the Victor and we find out that the other player was doubling up the damage so as NOT to take an internal hit. The two of the players on his the Victor pilot's team, tried to say it was an honest mistake, to which everyone else was like no way...
Now this lead to a lot arguing over his cheating or not cheating and the person running the Victor left after which we never did finish the game, mostly because everyone was so upset over the whole thing.
Now how would you folks have handled this? Would there have been the same arguement that lead to the end of the game or would you have done something else?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/12/02 11:56 PM
134.121.157.14
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I would have corrected the error, told him not to do it again, and kept going.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/12/02 11:59 PM
209.202.47.12
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Personally, I would have given the munchkin the benefit of the doubt (even though it was an obviously cheat) and accepted that it was an honest mistake. Of course, I would then have expected him to correct his mistake, and from what you said, it's unlikely he would have done that, and the argument would have happened anyway :-\
Really not much you can do with a cheater like that except double-check his every move or refuse to play with him. Or let him get a way with it once or twice, as long as you can kick his little munchkin monkey a** anyway :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/13/02 12:10 AM
63.173.170.144
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Interesting, but as I have found out once before with a guy who would add extra weapons to mechs and use them, example a Spider gains 2 more Mediums and nothing is adjusted to show for them, letting them get away with it tells them that they can keep doing it.
As much as I hate taking internal damage, it doesn't mean the end of the world. I think that is what cause most of the blow up was the other players were all asking "Why?" I mean if you are going to cheat fudge the die roll or something like that, but cheating on damage...that is plain silly.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/13/02 12:18 AM
134.121.157.14
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I think I really like your style. 
Problem is that the police can get involved. Well, at least until you remind them that a cheap Pakistani sword isn't exactly a DEADLY weapon...:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/13/02 12:23 AM
209.202.47.12
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Sword is always good, but I think a firecracker up the nose has a little more flair (or is that "flare"?)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Nightmare
02/13/02 12:27 AM
194.251.240.107
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Fudging dice takes more effort - if you roll them on a plain,
visible surface beside the maps. It`s easier to double-mark
the damage, and easy to get away with unless someone
is counting it very carefully. Honestly, I don`t think I could
recite the armor values of very many mechs from memory.
I do remember what`s been shot up pretty well, though.
After some thirty points to the same location I too start asking
questions. Not that any of my usual opponents cheat, but
one guy is very confused anyway and might sometimes
shoot twice, or not at all with some weapons. The only real
attempt at cheating I`ve had to deal with was someone who
started to roll to-hit, without declaring which weapon went
first. Funny how the small ones missed and the big ones hit
I just asked him to declare weapons when rolling in the future,
and there`s been no trouble after that.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/13/02 12:34 AM
209.202.47.12
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Well, I think there's nothing worse for a cheat than cheating for all he's worth and losing anyway...players like that are likely to give up playing fairly quickly. :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/13/02 06:40 AM
63.173.170.193
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Read the post again...last time I check 7+5=12.
So 15+7=22 not 23...
aaAnd given that the location HAD already taken 7 points prior to that, having 1 point left still should have sent the other 6 points internal.
No arguement sure, IF this dude was a new player, but he was not. He has been playing for 4 years, so to me it's cheating.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/13/02 08:50 AM
204.245.128.3
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"Sure, sure. Honest mistake. Gotcha. Now fix it, apply the damage to the internal structure, and I'll roll for crits."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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BA_Evans
02/13/02 10:04 AM
65.194.182.3
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I don't usually make a big deal out of 'first-time' mistakes. Just correct the error and move on.
You might assign one of his trustwothy teammates as his shepard. This person can watch over him and make sure he is doing things correctly.
One of our regular players makes lots of mistakes. This player takes lots of meds that mess with his head, so its not really his fault. We make sure someone sitting near him knows the rules and watches out for him. It just makes things run smoother.
BA Evans
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Karagin
02/13/02 01:21 PM
63.173.170.191
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You know, there is making a mistake, like putting the damage in the wrong area or forgetting to mark off ammo, but doubling up the damage just to avoid an internal hit is not a mistake.
So while you are quick to point out mine, let's hope YOU don't make any mistakes.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/13/02 01:52 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>but doubling up the damage just to avoid an internal hit is not
a mistake. <<<
Maybe for some reason he thought he was using hardened armor?
I mean, it doesn't SOUND like he was cheating deliberately, and in any case, it's no use to make a big deal of it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/13/02 02:59 PM
63.173.170.126
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It's cheating, NO hardened armor was in play NONE! Level 2 rules ONLY.
Let's see how it is not cheating? You have a Max of 23 points on the right torso and 29 damage is done...BUT some how the remaining 6 points DOESN'T go inside because, (note the sound of shock and surprise) the player marks six dots TWICE.
Let's see, in level 2 play you can't do that, interesting...so it comes down to the bottom line of...(again note the sounds of surprise and shock) HE WAS CHEATING.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/02 03:00 PM
63.173.170.126
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As soon as you step off...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/02 03:08 PM
63.173.170.126
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Glad to know you are so nice and friendly...please go bug someone else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Hellbringer
02/13/02 03:12 PM
192.195.234.26
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Kill the surrat and have his blood legacy stricken from the gene pool.
"We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return, and return we shall, our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our battlemechs and fighters."
-General Alexandr Kerensky
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Cray
02/13/02 03:32 PM
204.245.128.3
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Okay, well, apparently you didn't make the L2 part clear enough for some folks, and some folks didn't ask if it was L2 but leapt to assumptions first.
It do indeed sound like cheating. I've made my suggestion elsewhere - accept the white lie that it was an "honest mistake, make sure the cheater corrects his "honest mistake", and roll for crits.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Spartan
02/13/02 04:17 PM
172.153.62.245
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::when you point a finger, 3 fingers and a thumb point right back.
I tried this. My thumb was pointing off in a strange direction at nothing and my other three fingers were pointing up into my palm not my back at me.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
02/13/02 04:20 PM
172.153.62.245
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Is he a merc? If so you should confiscate his share in the contract money.
Otherwise, court martial him. Get him reassigned to a J-27.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Bob_Richter
02/13/02 05:26 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>It's cheating, NO hardened armor was in play NONE! Level 2 rules ONLY. <<<
Clearly. It's still a possible ERROR.
I've had days like that.
>>>the player marks six dots TWICE. <<<
Which is correct for Hardened or Laser-Reflective armor. If the guy wasn't thinking about it and was used to using level 3 types...or maybe even if it was a house rule in his home gaming group...
>>>HE WAS
CHEATING. <<<
He marked his damage incorrectly. That is the only conclusion you can reasonably come to. He says it was a mistake, and you have no reasonable grounds to disbelieve him. Allow him to correct his mistake and continue play.
Do you not find this to be a superior solution?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/13/02 05:33 PM
63.173.170.138
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HE CHEATED.
ONCE MORE NO HARDENED ARMOR OR ANY OF THE OTHER LEVEL 3 ARMOR TYPES WERE BEING USED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT???
How many times do I have to say it? I gave you the mech he was using a 3050 tech Victor.
WHY ARE STILL ON THE IDEA OF HARDENED HARD? WHY?
It was clear that he didn't want to take the internal damage, so what else was it BUT cheating?
AND NO HE DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A MISTAKE! DAMNIT READ THE POST AGAIN! ONE OF HIS TEAM MATES SAID IT WAS MISTAKE.
READ THE POST AGAIN, NOTE WHAT HE SAID AFTER MARKING THE LAST 7 POINTS OF DAMAGE...NOW TELL IF YOU STILL THINK IT WAS ALL A MISTAKE.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/13/02 05:53 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>HE CHEATED. <<<
Maybe, maybe not. It's unimportant.
>>>NOW TELL IF YOU STILL THINK IT WAS ALL A MISTAKE. <<<
I didn't say I thought so. I said it was unreasonable to conclude otherwise.
This remains the case, no matter how many times I read the same thing.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/13/02 05:58 PM
63.173.170.138
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It is important Bob, he cheated there is NO way around that, for Gwads sake we all were only running ONE mech each and he had been hit a grand total of ONCE before the Adder lit him up.
Well I guess you are more forgiving the some other out there. Based on his attitude and blatten double marking of the damage, it was clear to all that he was cheating to keep his mech in the game longer.
So while it might not have been a good idea for us to mad over it, the act and the intention was very clear.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/13/02 06:13 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>It is important Bob,<<<
No it isn't.
Whether he cheated or not, your option is to:
A) Get pissy about it, culminating in the destruction of an otherwise fun game
B) Allow him to correct his error and keep playing.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/13/02 06:46 PM
63.173.170.38
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You know it's amazing, I never said what I did or didn't do, glad to see that you assume I was one of the ones who was damning him and everything.
Some folks don't like cheaters at ALL, I am one of those people who happens to think that cheating is wrong. While mistakes happen, and can be corrected, most of us don't flat out tell some one I took the seven or 10 or 100 points of damage and you didn't get in to the inside, when we all know better.
Letting someone get away with cheat once tells them that it's okay as long as they better at hiding, you know first it's a fudging of the armor damage, then an extra shot or three of ammo, or running that extra hex hoping that no one noticed, or saying you walk when you ran...the list goes on and on...
While I agree the arguement over this that night could have been avoided, I think his leaving and our not wanting him to play any more sends a clear message, you cheat you are out.
And YES Bob it is important, because if someone is cheating they are taking the fun out of the game for all once it's found out.
Look at it like this, say the battle had finished and the Clan side lost...latter we find out that he did what did AFTER the fact...how do you think we are going to feel?
How would you feel if this happen to you Bob? Would you be turning the other cheek and going "Gee...it's just a game...oh well..." Or you would be upset over it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/02 08:33 PM
63.173.170.38
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It is about opinions, and so far most to all agree that the bottom line is he cheated, we all know this all but Bob, who seems to think that cheating is nothing to worry about.
So I am asking him what he have done IF this had just happen in his group, with a similar reaction from the other players.
And seeing how Bob is blaming me for other 6 people out of 8 reactions and such, I think I do have right to correct him, by pointing out that I had NO say as to what happen. Mainly because this was the first time since 9 years ago that I have seen someone cheat. So I was one of two sitting there going why? what's the point?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Hellbringer
02/13/02 11:19 PM
192.195.234.26
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Cut it out before I have both of you in a circle of equals!
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Hellbringer
02/13/02 11:22 PM
192.195.234.26
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I'm with Bob, so don't get so pissy.
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Hellbringer
02/13/02 11:24 PM
192.195.234.26
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What about live action role-playing games?
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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