Karagin
03/04/02 11:16 PM
63.173.170.227
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According to the lastest form the BT universe, it seems that the FedSuns and Lyrans are no longer building warships since their fleets got mauled in the fight of the civil war. And to them this shows they are not effective enough to warrant their price tag.
Now how do you folks feel about this? Are they ineffective as the authors claim or do they have a place in the game?
My take on this is simple, as written they are just there for flavor. They can't be used as they should because of the game fact called the Ares Convention...which to me is something is all nice and fine, but if they (the Inner Sphere) can toss it out the window in the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars, then why all of a sudden worry about it about now?
The simple idea on this Battlespace didn't sell all that well, and so they (the writers etc...) are getting rid of dead weight...
Let's hear your thoughts on this matter...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (03/04/02 11:37 PM)
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Bob_Richter
03/04/02 11:25 PM
134.121.247.162
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Absolutely ineffective.
Look at their price tag. You could buy a legion of fighters or military small craft at that price!
Meanwhile, Warships are totally incapable of anything but an assault on another Warship (or orbital bombardment of a planet, which is widely frowned on and never practiced.)
There are better ways of carrying troops to battle. Cheaper ways.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TenakaFurey
03/04/02 11:36 PM
195.92.168.174
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In many ways, they are ineffective.
However, the FS and LC may regret that decison the next time their transports have to run a blockade......
EJL
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Karagin
03/04/02 11:38 PM
63.173.170.227
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I agree with you on that...but it seems the writers and such at FP don't...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
03/04/02 11:38 PM
63.12.147.29
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I agree, purely useless. The army so reduces their military budget by putting such a specialised unit in their forces instead of regiments of aerospace fighters, jumpships and dropships. Also if you are building a Warship that takes years to make and a war breaks out you have nothing to show for it. Producing smaller military assets are easier to replace and close enough to 'instant' to allow for immediate military acction.
Greyslayer
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Bob_Richter
03/04/02 11:42 PM
134.121.247.162
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If they simply step up production on fighters, fighter-carriers, and assault ships, they should have no trouble "running a blockade", as if blockades were effective when your entry point into the system consists of a volume of several trillion cubic kilometers.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
03/04/02 11:51 PM
24.44.238.62
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First part yes, second part no.
Remember, you don't have to interdict interstellar travel, just the tiny bit of space around the planet through which anything going in or out would have to travel.
So, while blockades can well be effective, warships aren't (as created).
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
03/04/02 11:54 PM
63.173.170.227
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The price tag of the mechs don't prevent the houses from buying them when they can get twice the number of vehicles for the same cost...
I think it is more of a sales issue...and the idea that the MWDA storyline doesn't have them so now is a good time to pull them from the scene...that's my opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
03/04/02 11:58 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>Remember, you don't have to interdict interstellar travel, just the tiny bit of space around the planet through which anything going in or out would have to travel. <<<
Even the orbital space around a planet is so large that a Warship could never cover it effectively.
Some of the older source material (was it the House Steiner sourcebook?) makes some mention of the impossibility of enforcing a Warship blockade...and that was back when they HAD Warships.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
03/05/02 12:00 AM
134.121.247.162
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What was that quote from that Mekton book?
It's in my room. Go look it up.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
03/05/02 12:01 AM
63.173.170.227
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Rigth and we all wish that the mechs could be Transformers...
The warships I think got handled wrong as far as how they were shown in the fiction, and in the rules. Maybe if they writters had done the battles between them better there wouldn't be as bad as they are...and then the rules might not have been so well silly...but that's water over the bridge now...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/05/02 12:02 AM
24.44.238.62
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Warships, as created by FASA, are junk. Period.
Warships, as outlined by Battlespace, have potential (like, for example, a 2,500kt munchtub (tm) that carries 200,000 cER Small Lasers. And 1100pts of armor per facing. ). Anything within 6 hexes is toast, plain and simple.
Also, warships as Cray has redefined them (with 0 docking collars, the main source of the exorbitant price) are nice as merchies.
And also carriers.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
03/05/02 12:03 AM
134.121.247.162
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>>>Rigth and we all wish that the mechs could be Transformers... <<<
Um. LAMs.
And he was talking about the SDF-1/Macross Cannon, in case you couldn't tell.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
03/05/02 12:04 AM
63.173.170.227
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I agree they are junk as given to us by FASA, and hence they are being tossed out...
To bad really, since they could have been done as to give them an important role and place in the game...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/05/02 12:05 AM
24.44.238.62
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You, sir, hit the nail on the head.
It'd be bad enough if warship rules were really crippling.
But they're irrationally really crippling.
And the blame for that, despite the really cool warship art, gets laid at the feet of "we don't need no steenking construction rules, let's pull numbers out of our *(#&$$es" TRO 2750.
Eh.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
03/05/02 12:05 AM
134.121.247.162
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>>>The warships I think got handled wrong as far as how they were shown in the fiction, and in the rules.<<<
The FICTION got them right, according to the rules, but the rules were pretty far wrong. The sheer mass of both them and their weapons was outright ridiculous. The lack of dependency on tonnage for K-F Core cost was a real problem too, if you ask me...
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
03/05/02 12:08 AM
63.173.170.227
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The ships in TR2750 were a start at adding in the warship...and I do agree it was not the best way to go about it, but they could have salavaged something, but instead we got Battlespace, or as a friend of mine called it Leviathan: The ship to ship game for Battletech...that usally brought a few chuckles...
And you are correct they pull the numbers out of thin air...or at least that is how it looks...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/05/02 12:10 AM
24.44.238.62
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[whines]at least they coulda kept the really cool template system[/whines]
Hmm....LeviaSpace?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
03/05/02 12:14 AM
63.173.170.227
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LOL! I agree...but hey Battlespace was a better system remember it's new it must be better. 
And to answer your question, check the credits of the BS (no pun intented) Sourcebook, they list Leviathan as one of their helpful things....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/05/02 12:18 AM
24.44.238.62
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I know, that's why I was making the pun.
Makes you feel sorry for Chris Hartford, though 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
03/05/02 12:24 AM
63.173.170.178
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Maybe.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
03/05/02 12:55 AM
194.251.240.107
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I`ve played Leviathan, and it wasn`t so hot either. Your high
and mighty Warship was almost defenseless against swarm
attacks by fighter squadrons, and the fighters were able to
aim for specific hit locations...BLAST as several sqadrons all
fire at your left-aft sector, row seven all the way down to
Ship Destroyed.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Karagin
03/05/02 03:45 AM
63.173.170.151
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And guess what the same is true in Battlespace, wonder where that simulairity came from...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/05/02 07:40 AM
204.245.128.3
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Are warships ineffective?
I was looking at the role of Clan and IS warships in an alternate history. It looks feasible enough to destroy almost any book warship with a regiment or two of fighters in just one pass. So, as space superiority platforms, warships are of dubious value. Just bring along more fighters. I mean, as tempting as it is to imagine warships evaporating fleets of dropships...really, it seems warships are at that point of vulnerability that surface gunboats reached in WWII to fighters.
On the other hand, the bombardment value of warships is enormous. Dropships simply cannot deliver naval fire support against ground targets - the only capital weapons they can carry (missiles) are not (according to AT2) usuable against ground targets. A warship overhead with batteries of naval lasers and PPCs can evaporate mech regiments without endangering its precious hide or friendly ground forces. The ability to evaporate ground targets without sending vulnerable fighters or ground units through enemy defenses is wonderful. (I was thinking about this while imagining assaults on Clan home worlds. Why send your mechs to fight their way through a garrison galaxy to blow up a Clan mech factory when a few zots from a warship overhead can do the job?)
Further, a bargain-basement warship (no dropship hard points, no lithium-fusion battery) is just 2-3 billion C-bills. That's less expensive than legions of mechs it would take to defeat an equal cost in Clan mechs. Heck, a warship is a good fighter carrier - much better armored than a dropship carrier.
This pretty much relegates warships to their modern oceanic roles: carriers and shore bombardment, leaving space superiority to fighters, but they remain (IMO) effective in some roles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lance_Hawkins
03/05/02 09:26 AM
80.232.16.43
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I think that your idea that warships/aerospace didn't sell well is why FanPro are reducing them in the universe are off. If so, why would they include new aerofighters and dropships in the Technical Readout 3067, why announce you're going to publish a recordsheet book filled with only all things aero?
The reason why neither the FedSuns or LyrAll are making warships is simple, the same reason Germany didn't make any new battleships after WWII started. The resources are needed elsewhere. Also with heavy fighting going on at the most important shipyards (like Kathil), it makes no sense to try to make ships there, when the enemy can own the shipyard next week. Better to redirect the resources to a mech plant you control, and churn out an extra regiment of Mechs or vehicles.
Also that warships can't take and hold factories and land is just as true in the Btech universe as it is in todays world. Orbital bombardment only goes so far, you need alot of warship to effectively cover a full planet. One thing is hitting fixed facilities, and helping a friendly unit in a fight (like on Huntress), but when you don't have that ground unit because you made a Fox corvette, it's no good.
Øystein
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Cray
03/05/02 09:52 AM
204.245.128.3
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You can design a nice "bargain basement" warship for 2-3 billion C-bills.
Admittedly, that's still a fighter regiment or three, but warships can do things no fighter regiment can, like:
1) Carry fighters into battle
2) Bombard planets with impunity from orbit
3) Jump (they're great at hopscotch)
You will be unavoidably laying out some cash for fighter carriers, which aren't cheap (notice how pricey a Mammoth or Behemoth gets - fast, small dropship carriers are quite expensive, too). I'd prefer my fighter regiment to be in a ship that can survive a few NAC hits.
Dropships are at that awful middle ground where they carry inadequate amounts of firepower with thin armor and high pricetags. Sometimes, a bargain basement warship can look pretty attractive.
And there remains orbital bombardment. I would much prefer a 2 billion C-bill warship dropping pain and hellfire on a target rather than sending 2 billion C-bills of 2 regiments of L2 mechs after the target through ground defenses.
I should repost my Everyman's warship.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
03/05/02 10:24 AM
204.245.128.3
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Sorry, man, I disagree. A warship has the sensors necessary to detect approaching targets up to a million kilometers away and a handful of dropships can really extend this observed volume.
Combined with the simple ability to MOVE, the warship can intercept vehicles approaching a planet. You don't have to throw up a chainlink fence around a planet to blockade it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
03/05/02 10:27 AM
204.245.128.3
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Of course, if you have the cash and your fighter/mech/whatever factories are backlogged with orders...go ahead, buy the warship.
If its a bargain basement warship. Don't bother with the 16 billion C-bill piles o' cr@p FASA designed.
And I'd prefer to have my legions of fighters on a cheap warship carrier than a dropship carrier any day - more mobile and better protected than the dropship.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
03/05/02 10:29 AM
137.172.211.9
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Have you ever played a game called Full Thrust?
In it they had a ship called a System Defence Destroyer or something like that. The funny thing was that they lacked a jump drive but carried a weapon array of capital ships a couple of classes heavier than it. They were also alot cheaper.
To get the ship to move systems they had cheap Tug Boats that would transport these and salvaged ships between systems. This would free up Warships to be a real combat threat with impressive speed and firepower.
In the Star League Sourcebook they had information of Jumpships that lock around the target (In this case massive asteriods of ice) and jumped them and the target to a new system. Well at least I thought it was the Star League Sourcebook might be the Periphery Sourcebook.
This could allow a newer breed of Warships that more fit into the 'super-dropship' category. Of course the ships defending Terran Hegemony when General Kerensky liberated that area were of this type already (hard for a AI controlled in a particular system to jump off to another system now isn't it? ).
Greyslayer
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Cray
03/05/02 10:36 AM
204.245.128.3
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The Ryan Ice Cartel "ice ships" used several jumpships working together to form up around a block of ice and jump with it using their overlapping drive fields. They didn't actually latch on. Given the effects of drive fields on nearby objects during a jump, it's probably a good thing only ice was transported. It wouldn't mind all the warping and crushing and rending.
However, "monitors" (what I always called driveless warships) always struck me as a good idea. I figured you could do something like the Behemoth dropship - take up more than one docking collar on a jumpship, like 1 collar per 50,000 tons of monitor. That caps the monitors at 450ktons, but they should be much more cost-effective means of delivering capital weapons onto the battlefield than current warships.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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