Hellbringer
03/18/02 08:19 PM
192.195.234.26
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Hey all, I am trying my hand at some fan-fiction writing. Does anyone know the measurements for the various classes of AC? I have read in the BT novels that AC sizes are recorded in cm, much like the way personal weapons are measure in mm. If you guys know which measurements match up to which ACs it would be a great help.
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Karagin
03/18/02 09:41 PM
63.173.170.29
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Where did you read the AC where measured in centimeters? The BMR-R states that the size is millimeters NOT centimeters.
Could you sight a chapter or page in one of the novels that does this please? I am interested in seeing this.
Basically the AC2 covers the 30mm to 45mm range, while the AC 5 coves the 50mm to 70mm range, the AC 10 get's the 75mm to 100mm range and the AC20 covers the rest...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/18/02 10:21 PM
24.44.238.62
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The glossary of terms at the back of the old books (i.e. Blood of Kerensky Trilogy) either states or implies this (by mentioning that an AC/20 has a caliber of 200mm--20cm).
However, the Battlespace Rule/Source Book states explicitly that the number is a rating of capability, not a precise measurement in either caliber or rate of fire (and gives an example of two 20-rating weapons, one firing many small shells, one firing a few large shells...they're both 20s).
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
03/19/02 01:17 AM
63.173.170.64
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Interesting...my copy of Leathal Heritage, in fact all three books of that trilogy, have this to say on page 329 which starts the glossary:
Autocannon:
The autocannon is a rapid-firing autoloading weapon. Light vehicle autocannon range form 30mm to 90mm caliber, while heavy 'Mech mounted autocannon may be 80mm to 120mm or more. The weapon fires high-speed streams of high-explosive, armor-piercing shells. Because of the of the limitations of 'Mech targeting technology, the autocannon's effective anti-'Mech range is limitd to less then 600 meters.
Now no where in the above or any of the older books, (Warrior Trilogy, Wolves on the Border etc...) do I find any mention of the ACs calibers in centimeters...the copies I am going on are the first run printings, NOT the ROC reprints. So can you give me a page number or another reference point please?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/19/02 02:36 AM
24.44.238.62
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No, you're right, it's 120mm...
Must have been confusing it with Hammer's Slammers, and those (*cough*sweet*cough*) 20cm powerguns.
Sorry.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
03/19/02 04:12 AM
4.35.174.250
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As with any metric measurement, AC caliber is easily converted between millimeters and centimeters. Thus, you will occasionally see an author refer to an AC/20 as a twelve-centimeter cannon, but millimeter measure is perhaps more appropriate.
ACs are in classes, not calibres. It's quite possible to have AC/20s that are 120mm and AC/20s that are 203mm, they just have varying rates of fire.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
03/19/02 06:42 AM
204.245.128.3
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The problem is, the ACs vary within classes. Both 120mm and 185mm weapons are in the AC/20 class, for example, while 120mm also shows up in the AC/10 class.
A good rule of thumb is to multiply the AC class by 10 to get the bore size in millimeters. This will be a bit low for AC/2s (which I've seen described as 25mm) and a bit high for AC/20s (which are typically under 200mm).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/19/02 07:20 AM
63.173.170.230
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 I wish the ACs where along the same lines as the Slammer's Power Guns...but then again having a vehilce mounting 20mm (2cm) MGs as a standard weapon is a little on the over kill side when you think about it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/19/02 11:09 AM
204.245.128.3
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>The BMR-R states that the size is millimeters NOT centimeters.
Oh, for Pete's sake. Dude, millimeter to centimeter conversion is easy. Some people say a 15cm autocannon, some say a 150mm autocannon. Who cares? They're the same thing.
>Basically the AC2 covers the 30mm to 45mm range, while the AC 5 coves the 50mm to 70mm range, the AC 10 get's the 75mm to 100mm range and the AC20 covers the rest...
3cm to 4.5cm, 5 to 7cm, 7.5 to 10cm, etc. What's so hard about that?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/19/02 11:47 AM
63.173.170.51
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Point:
No where in the books is it given in centimeters. Thus the actually facts from the glossary to clear up any confusion.
Point:
You missed the whole point of what I was saying in your rush to once again find fault in something I posted.
Is that your sole aim to find something to complain about in any thing I post?
What was the point of your post again?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/19/02 03:38 PM
204.245.128.3
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>No where in the books is it given in centimeters
And...? Neither are multiplication tables, yet multiplication is done often enough while using BT. Likewise, the metric system isn't described in BT rule books, but it is used by BT. The metric system says "10 millimeters equals 1 centimeter." Therefore, it is equally valid to call a 185mm Chemjet AC/20 a 18.5cm Chemjet AC/20. It's one of those rules used by BT not covered in BT rulebooks, like multiplication tables.
>Is that your sole aim to find something to complain about in any thing I post?
Really, I take your posts one at a time. Some are interesting, some have flaws I want to comment on. In this case, you were climbing over Nathan with faulty logic, so I pointed out the flaw in it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/19/02 03:44 PM
63.173.170.89
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What faulty logic? The novels and the rules give the Autocannon caliber in milimeters. He said he saw centimeters, all asked was were, he told me I looked, asked again to be sure and the pointed out what the books saided...he stated and I quote:
"No, you're right, it's 120mm...
Must have been confusing it with Hammer's Slammers, and those (*cough*sweet*cough*) 20cm powerguns.
Sorry. " End quote.
So the matter was cleared up and over with yet in you jump flamming away at me because of what again? If some where in the game it calls the ACs by their centimeter equalivente then I stand corrected, but seeing how it's done in milimeters your point is invaild since the game facts say other wise.
And so why are you even trying to flame me over this? The request for were he saw it and all was given, and the problem if there was one was solved with a simple reading of the part of the book he suggested and thus all was cleared up and settled tell you jumped in...why?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/19/02 03:52 PM
204.245.128.3
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>What faulty logic? The novels and the rules give the Autocannon caliber in milimeters.
That's the faulty logic right there. Thinking that just because it is traditional or common to use millimeters to describe bore size, centimeters are verbotten.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/19/02 03:53 PM
63.173.170.89
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If the rules and storyline give it milimeters would it NOT makes sense to sick with that as NOT to confuse folks?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/19/02 03:57 PM
204.245.128.3
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If they flunked out of grade school, it might not be a bad idea to stick to millimeters so they don't get confused. Most other people can do a centimeter-to-millimeter conversion.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/19/02 04:05 PM
63.173.170.89
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The point here is the game sticks to milimeters. The reasons why are not important, that is what they use, just like the speeds are KPH not MPH.
Changing how you describe the bore of the ACs could cause some confusion for some folks or it may not but seeing how the lasers are done by size would it not be odd to read the joules of engery in the mathmatical terms in the story and then try to figure which size laser fired?
Something I have always seen written and stated, if you are going to write fiction in a set universe, be it Star Wars or Star Trek of Btech, you should stick to the terminology that is standard in use and not cross over with something from one to another. For example it would be very werid to here Han Solo saying jump to Warp 10 would it not? Because for most folks they would picture Star Trek before they Star Wars do to the use of the word Warp.
What I am trying to say is for Hellbringer to stick to using milimeters for the ACs and other weapons since the game does that, and that way the story stays with in the BT universe and prevents someone from saying oh that came from _______________. (fill in your choice of Sci-Fi).
Can you see my point here or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Hellbringer
03/19/02 04:45 PM
192.195.234.26
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*The point here is the game sticks to milimeters. The reasons why are not important, that is what they use, just like the speeds are KPH not MPH.*
First of all your little example here describes changing from metric to english. This is NOTHING like what we are talking about. Converting mm to cm is a helluvalot different than changing whole freaking systems of measurments.
Anyway I went back to my books and I dicovered that I made a mistake. THERE>>>ARE YOU FREAKING HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I should have you in a circle of equals, Surat!!
Oh yeah...Karagin? What hurts when you pee? :-P
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Karagin
03/19/02 04:47 PM
63.173.170.89
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Good to see that you hit the books to check things out. Good luck on your fiction and please post it here so we can see it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Hellbringer
03/19/02 04:49 PM
192.195.234.26
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Heck man, if you've seen Saving Private Ryan, they had 20mm machine guns in WWII. Back then the things were just beastly, but think of the miniaturization work that could be done in the years between WWII and BT.
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Karagin
03/19/02 04:53 PM
63.173.170.89
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Uhmm...that Veriling was a quad mount anti-aircraft gun used in the fire suppresion role since they needed something...
And the Slammers weapons are listed as 2cm power guns and the tribarrels on each combat car has three 2cm barrels to one gun and three or more Tri-barrels to a combat car...
If you haven't read any of David Drake's Hammer's Slammers books I would highly recommend them to you.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/20/02 01:40 AM
24.44.238.62
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[engineer mode]
Quite.
[/engineer mode]
[author mode]
It depends on whether we're arguing over style or measurements: We all agree that 20cm and 200mm are functionally (and mathematically) equivalent. However, they are not stylistically equivalent--witness the difference between BT's and Hammer's Slammers's measurements..the former is (almost uniformly, Karagin is correct) given in mm, whereas the latter is (again almost uniformly) in cm. Furthermore, the major point of having a style is to stick to it: it would be really weird to read a story about NATO planes with 2cm Vulcan cannon, or an Abrams with a 12cm main gun (it is 120mm, now right?). The same for, say, Don Slade carrying a 10mm SM(P)G (while inside a tank with a 200mm main (power)gun). Or, heck, why not just refer to an M-16 as a 5,560,000 um (used u because the real Mu would stay posting) assault rifle.
[/author mode]
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
03/20/02 11:00 AM
204.245.128.3
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>The point here is the game sticks to milimeters.
The point is even RL militaries alternate between cm and mm for the same weapons. A choice example is at:
www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3620/sdkfz41.htm
Where the "15cm Panzerwerfer 42 auf Selbstfahrlafette Sd.Kfz.4/1" is noted later on the page as having "150mm Nebelwerfer 42 & 7.92mm MG34/42 (Sd.Kfz.4/1)."
It's a trivial web search to turn up alternating cm/mm descriptions for the same WWII and naval weapons.
RL military vehicle descriptions prefer millimeters, but often use centimeters. I HAVE seen centimeters used before for BT lasers (7cm lasers, a Clan ER medium laser IIRC), and I'm looking for more.
There is no reason to suspect millimeters are the exclusive descriptors of BT weapons just because there are no printed examples. The only way to know for sure would be to see a strict rule that says, "And weapons are only described in millimeters."
>The reasons why are not important, that is what they use, just like the speeds are KPH not MPH.
Inappropriate analogy. Now you're switching between measurement systems, rather than within a measurement system that specifically allows easy conversion between two units. Warp speeds in Star Wars are even less appropriate - the technology/physics of Star Trek absolutely doesn't apply anymore than you could label the speed of KF drives in terms of "warps."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Grizzly
03/20/02 12:26 PM
12.108.119.227
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I agree that there is no difference between 120mm and 12cm. As I mentioned over at CBT, I am pretty sure that Battletechnology listed some lasers in cm.
Just for the record and to broker a peace deal here, did anyone ever think that maybe the writers use mm to make a weapon sound more impressive? I know that operationally there is no difference between 15cm and 150mm, but if you look at fluff and see something listed as a "150mm smoothebore cannon" vs "a 15cm smoothebore cannon"; which sounds more deadly? I think, at least for the lay person/newbie they will say the 150mm. Just like the old joke, what weighs more, a ton of lead or a ton of feathers? Most people without thinking will say the lead, and then slap themselves on the forehead and say that they weigh the same. Just a thought.....
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
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Karagin
03/20/02 12:54 PM
63.173.170.36
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Thank you for telling us that.. what it added to the discussion I am not sure but I do know it was not needed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/20/02 12:57 PM
63.173.170.36
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I can not believe you are that slow....a Pentagon paper on the German military of WW2...man that is out dated.
99% of the militares today use milimeters for their gun sizes.
In the BT universe they do the same. So the point is that it's milimeters that is used and if you are going to write a story or what not you need to stick with that or as you are doing once more, open your self up for folks to complain about something.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/20/02 12:59 PM
63.173.170.36
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While I am for peace around here, it seems that some want to find fault with everything so they can look important.
So again thanks for trying, but it's a wasted effort since one side won't see the other's points or listen and thus we have endless rounds of flames and BS.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
03/20/02 03:42 PM
4.35.174.250
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I recall at least two instances where an AC/20 was referred to as a tweleve-centimeter autocannon.
Don't remember where they were, though.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
03/21/02 07:05 AM
204.245.128.3
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Addendum: Loren seems quite loose with the centimeter/millimeter terminology in his latest novels (Flashpoint and Illusion of Victory, I think), describing bigger bore autocannons as 10 and 20cm guns. Yep...
"In illusions of victory, someone mentions replacing a dragon fire's gauss with a light gauss so they can upgrade the AC to a 12 cm bore "
The Texas' NAC/40s are described as having a "nearly 2 meter" bore (See: TR:2750 or 3057).
The GDL books use cm to describe lasers a few times.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/21/02 07:23 AM)
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Karagin
03/21/02 12:59 PM
63.173.170.175
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You know I read this over on CBT and it doesn't tell me anything since I looked in those two book and still don't see what you claim so unless you have page number the person who told you this on CBT is not correct or misunderstood what they read. So how about you do your own research and not dump it on other over on CBT...and what happen to leaving thing that start on one board at that board?
A 2 meter bore, nice but that's not centimeters...As for the GDL I will check on that one but I think the removed it if it was there in the reprint...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/21/02 01:14 PM
209.202.47.12
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OTOH, using millimeters to describe weaopn sizes is a convention to avoid confusion. Theoretically, someone might confuse 15cm with 15mm *gasp*
Also, using mm implies a greater degree of precision in the measurement.. you know, that whole "significant digits" thing
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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