Protomechs or Ultra Light mechs

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Karagin
03/19/02 01:17 PM
63.173.170.89

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Which would rather use in a game?


Protomech
Ultra Light Mech
Neither, I think both are silly


Comments and such on this are welcome...would like your opinions on this beyond the poll results.


Votes accepted from (12/31/69 04:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll

Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
03/19/02 01:22 PM
132.234.1.13

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As has been pointed out elsewhere, the ProtoMech was FASA's last chance to impress; it failed miserably. Asa a rule, ProtoMechs are either poorly designed or far too munchy. Added to the fact that they are, by concept and execution, unClanlike, and they begin to look even worse. Of course, nothing ever stopped the Smoke Jaguars from doing anything that was either unClanlike or stupid, so that rather cogent argument falls right apart

As for the other? That's just a personal preference. I could never make a decent 'Mech massing less than 20 tons anyway; in 15-ton 'Mechs the Cockpit, Internal Structure, and minimally sized Gyro take up slightly more than a third of its total mass.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Karagin
03/19/02 01:29 PM
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I agree with you on the Protomechs. As for the 15 tonners and less, I did come up with a couple of okay 15 tonners...but they do use a lot level 2 tech to get where they are...but the one or two times I have used them they have paid off since folks are like: "You are using what?" And then they find these little pest are hard to hit...gotta love that part...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
03/19/02 01:32 PM
132.234.1.13

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One of my friends is an engineer, and he cooked up some statistical package that told him the ultimate 'Mech was a Clan-Tech 15-tonner with full Ferro-Fibrous armour, Endo Steel IS, one ER Medium Laser, and some ridiculously-sized engine. It may or may not have had MASC. He called it the 'Twerp'. Since this was in the days when people used tonnage rather than CVs or BVs to balance their forces, this was a rather unsettling opposing force...

Oh yeah. He called it the 'Twerp'.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
TRYCORP
03/19/02 07:10 PM
12.16.168.254

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They are cool...
"Machine Guns! Thats a Summoner out there! Do you plan to punch little holes in it, and have it fall down from too much ventilation!?!"

TRYCORP
Clan Nova Cat
Nightmare
03/19/02 09:20 PM
194.251.240.107

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Usually "ultra-light" mech means your opponent wants to use
the Expanded Movement Table from MaxTech. I refuse to allow it And for some reason, I seldom have to see those
14/21/0 mechs with one laser and paper for armor.

Proto-mechs? Useless for me, as I refuse to play Clans.
They are Munch, and decent men shun them.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
TenakaFurey
03/19/02 09:33 PM
195.92.194.12

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Just out of curiosity, how are ProtoMechs unclanlike?

As to the question - as a concept, I like the ProtoMech. Its implementation, howveer, is flawed. I fall into the category of peopel that find them too weak - in my games they never seem to really have much of an impact as they die really quickly.

EJL
Greyslayer
03/19/02 09:47 PM
63.12.142.14

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The pilots are 'failed' aerospace pilots and it crosses the boundaries between elementals and mechs, which is you remember correctly was a very similar reason to why the LAM never made into clam forces in the earlier 'more correct' information.

Greyslayer
Black_Phoenix
03/20/02 04:33 AM
207.252.105.87

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If FASA had put any effort into the design of PMechs, they would have had potential. But instead they designed them and placed them on the market too quickly. The idea has possibilities, but needs some major improvement.

Just my opinion.
History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.
-Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz

novakitty
03/20/02 04:49 AM
192.195.234.26

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Elementals blurred the boundry between infantry and mechs. Any new innovention like that challenges the preexisting order, but usually finds its place anyway. At some point, the breeding program would have started trying to breed pilots specifically for protomechs. There, un-clanlike factors removed within one generation.
meow
Bob_Richter
03/20/02 05:44 AM
4.35.174.250

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>>>Elementals blurred the boundry between infantry and mechs.<<<

In no way. They simply made infantry-carried support weapons easier to move and integrated an exoskeleton with heavy armor and a jump pack. How does this blur the distinction between 'Mechs and Infantry? Elemental armor you WEAR, a 'Mech you PILOT. That's still different enough for me.

>>>At some point, the breeding program would have
started trying to breed pilots specifically for protomechs. <<<

Oh sure, by breeding those disgraces they strapped into the things in the first place. It's no less disgusting for that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
novakitty
03/20/02 06:12 AM
192.195.234.26

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"Elemental armor you WEAR, a 'Mech you PILOT. That's still different enough for me."

Then a protomech is different because you neither pilot nor wear it. You become it.
meow
Bob_Richter
03/20/02 06:12 AM
4.35.174.250

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>>>You become it. <<<

Very un-ClanLike.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
novakitty
03/20/02 06:22 AM
192.195.234.26

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On what grounds? Also a note I forgot to mention, being a failure in one military branch was not dsihonorable when spotted in the Sibko. Although rare, some children from a mechwarrior sibko became elementals, and other unexpected crossovers. A new test to see where skills really lie is not dishonorable.

You only despise them because they can, if made right, even chew their way through your munchiest mech designs.

Hah, Munchking, hah.
meow
BA_Evans
03/20/02 10:24 AM
65.194.182.3

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Are you saying that protomechs are more munchy than the munchiest mechs? Sounds like a good reason to ignore them and let the void of history swallow them up.

"You only despise them because they can, if made right, even chew their way through your munchiest mech designs."
Karagin
03/20/02 10:33 AM
63.173.170.36

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Might be hard to do that since the Protos are worked into the oh so awesome (not) MW3 RPG and they have all those minis out there to get ride of...er sell of the protos.

I think we are stuck with these at level 2 for a long time unless we complain to Randal enough and they get pushed into Level 3 play as did the Ultra lights...that's my opinion, I am sure that the offical word on this paints Protos in a better light, but then what else would it do...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
03/20/02 10:40 AM
204.245.128.3

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Ultra-light mechs are for me.

I never liked the protomech implementation for a number of reasons. I always figured smaller mechs would be more primitive ones, not cutting edge ones. I mean, you're not miniaturizing to the extent of battle armor, but just cutting the mechanical stresses and slashing the engineering problems to a manageable level. I figured mini-mechs would show on Periphery worlds that couldn't build 30+ ton "titans."

Just the weird set of thoughts that leads me to favor ultra-lights over protos.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Bob_Richter
03/20/02 12:38 PM
4.35.174.250

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>>>You only despise them because they can, if made right, even chew their way through your munchiest mech
designs. <<<

1) In a pig's eye.
2) Even if that WERE true (it's not,) that would hardly be my reason for disliking them.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
03/20/02 01:04 PM
63.173.170.212

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Interesting set of ideas there...I can follow the idea of primative versions of the Ultra lights...to a point but I can see the other side that says if you can miniurize to the level battlearmor why would you not be able to do the same or similar on the ultra lights...but still it is an intersting idea...ICE powered 10 mechs or one with nothng but MGs...or go the max...a 15 ton ultra light with RLs on it...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Tron
03/20/02 01:42 PM
146.245.9.169

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That's incorrect. The clans have consistently tried making their warriors "one" with their mechs. Why else does EI technology exist? THe only reason it doesn't see a widespread of usage is in part to how dangerous it is. Other than every clanner must have at one point thought of using the perfermance enhancers.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh

We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
Bob_Richter
03/20/02 01:52 PM
4.35.174.250

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>>>Other than every clanner must have at one point thought of using the perfermance
enhancers. <<<

And some Clans have been absorbed for it.

>>>The clans have consistently tried making their warriors "one" with their mechs. Why else
does EI technology exist? <<<

EI improves the pilot's interface with the machine, he does not BECOME it, he only gains the ability to control it better. But he does so at the risk of losing both his sanity and his usefulness to the Clan.

Protomechs are a different kettle of fish altogether. You have a lower-casteman (for that is what a failed warrior is) "becoming" a miniature 'Mech, which makes his position a cross between all three subcastes, and a serious breach of Clan tradition.

Furthermore, FASAs rules and cost tables for Protos are simply unreasonable.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
TenakaFurey
03/20/02 04:19 PM
195.92.194.15

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>Other than every clanner must have at one point thought of using the perfermance
enhancers. <<<

And some Clans have been absorbed for it.


-Which Clan?


EI improves the pilot's interface with the machine, he does not BECOME it, he only gains the ability to control it better. But he does so at the risk of losing both his sanity and his usefulness to the Clan.

-True.


Protomechs are a different kettle of fish altogether. You have a lower-casteman (for that is what a failed warrior is) "becoming" a miniature 'Mech, which makes his position a cross between all three subcastes, and a serious breach of Clan tradition.

-How? First, he is not a lower caste Clansman. The originals shown in the ToTC series were test pilots, yes...but since then its been proper warriors.

EJL
Bob_Richter
03/20/02 06:23 PM
4.35.174.250

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>>>Which Clan? <<<

Burrock. Maybe you missed that one.

>>>-How? First, he is not a lower caste Clansman. The originals shown in the ToTC series were test pilots,
yes...but since then its been proper warriors. <<<

The "test pilots" most certainly WERE lower castemen.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
TenakaFurey
03/20/02 09:27 PM
195.92.168.174

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Clan Burrock was absorbed because of its dealings with the bandit caste. What does this have to do with perfromance enhancers?

And , yes, the test pilots were lower castement - probably techs. They shouldn't have been allwoed to enter combat but then the entire ProtoMech program was done without the knowledge of the warriors

But Proto pilots other than that have been warriors.

EJL.
Nightward
03/20/02 09:41 PM
132.234.1.13

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Actually, I should have said 'un-Blood Spirit-like'. The Blood Spirits are the only Clan to make its own ProtoMechs. Everybody has a few lying around, but the Spirits are the only ones doing anything with them. From all the literature available on the Spirits, this sort of technology, and its application, should be seen as nothing less than heresy because it violates Kerensky's vision. Take a look at their Cluster structure and you'll see where I am coming from.

They are also unreasonable. 1 Minotaur=9 Elementals (at least in terms of tonnage). Who wins that fight? (Hint: not the Proto).
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
TenakaFurey
03/21/02 12:15 AM
195.92.168.165

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What amke syou think the Blood Spirits are the only oen to be manufacturing their own Protos? Most, if not all, have the tech and seem to be using it to one degree or another though only the Spirits seem to be making extensive use fo them.

And how does it violate Kerenskys vision? Unless you are talking about them sticking rigidly to 3 Mech trinaries, 1 vehicle and 1 inf per Cluster? Still don't see the problem. They did adapt for Elementals as well.

And you hit upon one of my main complaints with Protos. In most, if not all, the situations where they are effective, Elementals are far more effcient and effective.

EJL
CrayModerator
03/21/02 04:07 AM
204.245.128.3

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The rules got fairly wordy as my ultra-lights ranged from 2 to 18 tons in 2-ton increments and required a lot of altered rules, like fractional accounting of gyroscopes, reduced numbers of hit locations, etc. I figured it would be too wordy to actually post and use - it wasn't a quick drop-in rules set like a new piece of equipment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Nightward
03/21/02 03:10 PM
203.134.13.194

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They just don't "fit" within the existing framework of the Blood Spirits. The Spirits took to Elementals because they are Infantry, pure and simple. ProtoMechs blur too many lines. They are almost as big as 'Mechs, are based upon Elemental technologies, yet are piloted by AeroSpace warriors. It could just be me, but I don't think the Spirits would really take to them-particularly in light of the fact that they require EI. Spirit Warriors are few and far between, and risking that kind of technology just to have ProtoMechs...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
TenakaFurey
03/21/02 07:15 PM
195.92.168.165

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No - I don't see the blurring you describe.

The msot you can say is that you have pilots fulfilling an infantry tyep role - but then, given that we have Elementals in mechs and mechjocks in aerospace fighetrs I can't see that as any cause for complaint.

As for thje EI - the 'fluff'tells us that AS pilots have an increased resistance to EI, though not to what extent. The MW3 rules don't really mae an exception. There may be a case for some ambiguity here;-)

EJL
NathanKell
03/21/02 07:31 PM
24.44.238.62

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{This is to the best of my knowledge, as I am not a clan-o-phile, let alone a Blood Spirit supporter...}
Clan Blood Spirit has maintained an army structure taken verbatim from Nicholas. Elementals were added because they are simply infantry who wear better armor, move quicker, carry heavier weapons, etc...but they're still infantry and thus provided for by Nicholas.
Are you arguing that Protomechs are infantry?
Are they mechs?
{CBS warrior}
They're not infantry...they're not mechs...the Founder didn't mention them...
Aaah! New thing! Brain overload! Conservative-o-matic synapses firing!
Thought erased.
{/CBS warrior}
Helloooo Not-Named units!
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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