Karagin
03/19/02 04:17 PM
63.173.170.89
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Which would rather use in a game?
Comments and such on this are welcome...would like your opinions on this beyond the poll results.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
03/19/02 04:22 PM
132.234.1.13
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As has been pointed out elsewhere, the ProtoMech was FASA's last chance to impress; it failed miserably. Asa a rule, ProtoMechs are either poorly designed or far too munchy. Added to the fact that they are, by concept and execution, unClanlike, and they begin to look even worse. Of course, nothing ever stopped the Smoke Jaguars from doing anything that was either unClanlike or stupid, so that rather cogent argument falls right apart 
As for the other? That's just a personal preference. I could never make a decent 'Mech massing less than 20 tons anyway; in 15-ton 'Mechs the Cockpit, Internal Structure, and minimally sized Gyro take up slightly more than a third of its total mass.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
03/19/02 04:29 PM
63.173.170.89
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I agree with you on the Protomechs. As for the 15 tonners and less, I did come up with a couple of okay 15 tonners...but they do use a lot level 2 tech to get where they are...but the one or two times I have used them they have paid off since folks are like: "You are using what?" And then they find these little pest are hard to hit...gotta love that part...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
03/19/02 04:32 PM
132.234.1.13
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One of my friends is an engineer, and he cooked up some statistical package that told him the ultimate 'Mech was a Clan-Tech 15-tonner with full Ferro-Fibrous armour, Endo Steel IS, one ER Medium Laser, and some ridiculously-sized engine. It may or may not have had MASC. He called it the 'Twerp'. Since this was in the days when people used tonnage rather than CVs or BVs to balance their forces, this was a rather unsettling opposing force...
Oh yeah. He called it the 'Twerp'.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TRYCORP
03/19/02 10:10 PM
12.16.168.254
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They are cool...
"Machine Guns! Thats a Summoner out there! Do you plan to punch little holes in it, and have it fall down from too much ventilation!?!"
TRYCORP
Clan Nova Cat
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Nightmare
03/20/02 12:20 AM
194.251.240.107
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Usually "ultra-light" mech means your opponent wants to use
the Expanded Movement Table from MaxTech. I refuse to allow it And for some reason, I seldom have to see those
14/21/0 mechs with one laser and paper for armor.
Proto-mechs? Useless for me, as I refuse to play Clans.
They are Munch, and decent men shun them.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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TenakaFurey
03/20/02 12:33 AM
195.92.194.12
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Just out of curiosity, how are ProtoMechs unclanlike?
As to the question - as a concept, I like the ProtoMech. Its implementation, howveer, is flawed. I fall into the category of peopel that find them too weak - in my games they never seem to really have much of an impact as they die really quickly.
EJL
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Greyslayer
03/20/02 12:47 AM
63.12.142.14
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The pilots are 'failed' aerospace pilots and it crosses the boundaries between elementals and mechs, which is you remember correctly was a very similar reason to why the LAM never made into clam forces in the earlier 'more correct' information.
Greyslayer
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Black_Phoenix
03/20/02 07:33 AM
207.252.105.87
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If FASA had put any effort into the design of PMechs, they would have had potential. But instead they designed them and placed them on the market too quickly. The idea has possibilities, but needs some major improvement.
Just my opinion.
History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.
-Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz
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novakitty
03/20/02 07:49 AM
192.195.234.26
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Elementals blurred the boundry between infantry and mechs. Any new innovention like that challenges the preexisting order, but usually finds its place anyway. At some point, the breeding program would have started trying to breed pilots specifically for protomechs. There, un-clanlike factors removed within one generation.
meow
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Bob_Richter
03/20/02 08:44 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Elementals blurred the boundry between infantry and mechs.<<<
In no way. They simply made infantry-carried support weapons easier to move and integrated an exoskeleton with heavy armor and a jump pack. How does this blur the distinction between 'Mechs and Infantry? Elemental armor you WEAR, a 'Mech you PILOT. That's still different enough for me.
>>>At some point, the breeding program would have
started trying to breed pilots specifically for protomechs. <<<
Oh sure, by breeding those disgraces they strapped into the things in the first place. It's no less disgusting for that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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novakitty
03/20/02 09:12 AM
192.195.234.26
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"Elemental armor you WEAR, a 'Mech you PILOT. That's still different enough for me."
Then a protomech is different because you neither pilot nor wear it. You become it.
meow
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Bob_Richter
03/20/02 09:12 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>You become it. <<<
Very un-ClanLike.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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novakitty
03/20/02 09:22 AM
192.195.234.26
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On what grounds? Also a note I forgot to mention, being a failure in one military branch was not dsihonorable when spotted in the Sibko. Although rare, some children from a mechwarrior sibko became elementals, and other unexpected crossovers. A new test to see where skills really lie is not dishonorable.
You only despise them because they can, if made right, even chew their way through your munchiest mech designs.
Hah, Munchking, hah.
meow
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BA_Evans
03/20/02 01:24 PM
65.194.182.3
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Are you saying that protomechs are more munchy than the munchiest mechs? Sounds like a good reason to ignore them and let the void of history swallow them up.
"You only despise them because they can, if made right, even chew their way through your munchiest mech designs."
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Karagin
03/20/02 01:33 PM
63.173.170.36
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Might be hard to do that since the Protos are worked into the oh so awesome (not) MW3 RPG and they have all those minis out there to get ride of...er sell of the protos.
I think we are stuck with these at level 2 for a long time unless we complain to Randal enough and they get pushed into Level 3 play as did the Ultra lights...that's my opinion, I am sure that the offical word on this paints Protos in a better light, but then what else would it do...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/20/02 01:40 PM
204.245.128.3
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Ultra-light mechs are for me.
I never liked the protomech implementation for a number of reasons. I always figured smaller mechs would be more primitive ones, not cutting edge ones. I mean, you're not miniaturizing to the extent of battle armor, but just cutting the mechanical stresses and slashing the engineering problems to a manageable level. I figured mini-mechs would show on Periphery worlds that couldn't build 30+ ton "titans."
Just the weird set of thoughts that leads me to favor ultra-lights over protos.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
03/20/02 03:38 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>You only despise them because they can, if made right, even chew their way through your munchiest mech
designs. <<<
1) In a pig's eye.
2) Even if that WERE true (it's not,) that would hardly be my reason for disliking them.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
03/20/02 04:04 PM
63.173.170.212
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Interesting set of ideas there...I can follow the idea of primative versions of the Ultra lights...to a point but I can see the other side that says if you can miniurize to the level battlearmor why would you not be able to do the same or similar on the ultra lights...but still it is an intersting idea...ICE powered 10 mechs or one with nothng but MGs...or go the max...a 15 ton ultra light with RLs on it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tron
03/20/02 04:42 PM
146.245.9.169
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That's incorrect. The clans have consistently tried making their warriors "one" with their mechs. Why else does EI technology exist? THe only reason it doesn't see a widespread of usage is in part to how dangerous it is. Other than every clanner must have at one point thought of using the perfermance enhancers.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Bob_Richter
03/20/02 04:52 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Other than every clanner must have at one point thought of using the perfermance
enhancers. <<<
And some Clans have been absorbed for it.
>>>The clans have consistently tried making their warriors "one" with their mechs. Why else
does EI technology exist? <<<
EI improves the pilot's interface with the machine, he does not BECOME it, he only gains the ability to control it better. But he does so at the risk of losing both his sanity and his usefulness to the Clan.
Protomechs are a different kettle of fish altogether. You have a lower-casteman (for that is what a failed warrior is) "becoming" a miniature 'Mech, which makes his position a cross between all three subcastes, and a serious breach of Clan tradition.
Furthermore, FASAs rules and cost tables for Protos are simply unreasonable.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TenakaFurey
03/20/02 07:19 PM
195.92.194.15
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>Other than every clanner must have at one point thought of using the perfermance
enhancers. <<<
And some Clans have been absorbed for it.
-Which Clan?
EI improves the pilot's interface with the machine, he does not BECOME it, he only gains the ability to control it better. But he does so at the risk of losing both his sanity and his usefulness to the Clan.
-True.
Protomechs are a different kettle of fish altogether. You have a lower-casteman (for that is what a failed warrior is) "becoming" a miniature 'Mech, which makes his position a cross between all three subcastes, and a serious breach of Clan tradition.
-How? First, he is not a lower caste Clansman. The originals shown in the ToTC series were test pilots, yes...but since then its been proper warriors.
EJL
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Bob_Richter
03/20/02 09:23 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Which Clan? <<<
Burrock. Maybe you missed that one.
>>>-How? First, he is not a lower caste Clansman. The originals shown in the ToTC series were test pilots,
yes...but since then its been proper warriors. <<<
The "test pilots" most certainly WERE lower castemen.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TenakaFurey
03/21/02 12:27 AM
195.92.168.174
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Clan Burrock was absorbed because of its dealings with the bandit caste. What does this have to do with perfromance enhancers?
And , yes, the test pilots were lower castement - probably techs. They shouldn't have been allwoed to enter combat but then the entire ProtoMech program was done without the knowledge of the warriors
But Proto pilots other than that have been warriors.
EJL.
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Nightward
03/21/02 12:41 AM
132.234.1.13
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Actually, I should have said 'un-Blood Spirit-like'. The Blood Spirits are the only Clan to make its own ProtoMechs. Everybody has a few lying around, but the Spirits are the only ones doing anything with them. From all the literature available on the Spirits, this sort of technology, and its application, should be seen as nothing less than heresy because it violates Kerensky's vision. Take a look at their Cluster structure and you'll see where I am coming from.
They are also unreasonable. 1 Minotaur=9 Elementals (at least in terms of tonnage). Who wins that fight? (Hint: not the Proto).
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TenakaFurey
03/21/02 03:15 AM
195.92.168.165
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What amke syou think the Blood Spirits are the only oen to be manufacturing their own Protos? Most, if not all, have the tech and seem to be using it to one degree or another though only the Spirits seem to be making extensive use fo them.
And how does it violate Kerenskys vision? Unless you are talking about them sticking rigidly to 3 Mech trinaries, 1 vehicle and 1 inf per Cluster? Still don't see the problem. They did adapt for Elementals as well.
And you hit upon one of my main complaints with Protos. In most, if not all, the situations where they are effective, Elementals are far more effcient and effective.
EJL
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Cray
03/21/02 07:07 AM
204.245.128.3
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The rules got fairly wordy as my ultra-lights ranged from 2 to 18 tons in 2-ton increments and required a lot of altered rules, like fractional accounting of gyroscopes, reduced numbers of hit locations, etc. I figured it would be too wordy to actually post and use - it wasn't a quick drop-in rules set like a new piece of equipment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
03/21/02 06:10 PM
203.134.13.194
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They just don't "fit" within the existing framework of the Blood Spirits. The Spirits took to Elementals because they are Infantry, pure and simple. ProtoMechs blur too many lines. They are almost as big as 'Mechs, are based upon Elemental technologies, yet are piloted by AeroSpace warriors. It could just be me, but I don't think the Spirits would really take to them-particularly in light of the fact that they require EI. Spirit Warriors are few and far between, and risking that kind of technology just to have ProtoMechs...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TenakaFurey
03/21/02 10:15 PM
195.92.168.165
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No - I don't see the blurring you describe.
The msot you can say is that you have pilots fulfilling an infantry tyep role - but then, given that we have Elementals in mechs and mechjocks in aerospace fighetrs I can't see that as any cause for complaint.
As for thje EI - the 'fluff'tells us that AS pilots have an increased resistance to EI, though not to what extent. The MW3 rules don't really mae an exception. There may be a case for some ambiguity here;-)
EJL
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NathanKell
03/21/02 10:31 PM
24.44.238.62
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{This is to the best of my knowledge, as I am not a clan-o-phile, let alone a Blood Spirit supporter...}
Clan Blood Spirit has maintained an army structure taken verbatim from Nicholas. Elementals were added because they are simply infantry who wear better armor, move quicker, carry heavier weapons, etc...but they're still infantry and thus provided for by Nicholas.
Are you arguing that Protomechs are infantry?
Are they mechs?
{CBS warrior}
They're not infantry...they're not mechs...the Founder didn't mention them...
Aaah! New thing! Brain overload! Conservative-o-matic synapses firing!
Thought erased.
{/CBS warrior}
Helloooo Not-Named units! 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
03/21/02 11:51 PM
203.134.13.194
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Exactly my point.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
03/22/02 03:30 AM
63.173.170.99
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TK wrote:
In reply to:
The msot you can say is that you have pilots fulfilling an infantry tyep role - but then, given that we have Elementals in mechs and mechjocks in aerospace fighetrs I can't see that as any cause for complaint.
See! I knew the BS from that darn Cartoon would come back to haunt us!!!!!!!!! A mech warrior piloting an aerofighter or an elemental piloting a mech...right I believe that...I will stick with Ultra Lights mechs myself...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
03/22/02 07:34 AM
192.195.234.26
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It is not from the cartoon, warriors who show talent for a different area of battle than expected get transfered to that group. A child from an elemental sibko who shows little skill in battlearmor will be tested to see if it has more natural talent in a mech or aerofighter, if it has no combat talent, it is sent to the lower casts. The sibko usually defines the type of combat a warrior will see, but exceptions do occur.
meow
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Karagin
03/22/02 07:39 AM
63.173.170.139
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All is true yes, BUT you would not see them returning to pilot the Battlearmor or the aerospace fighter...in the perfect and wonderful (gag me with a spoon) cartoon, we see a Trueborn Star Colonel mechwarrior piloting Battlearmor without any trouble as if he did it every day of hjis life and then our golden boy Adam Stiener can also pilot an aerospace fighter as if he too has been doing it all of his life...
Some how I don't see that happening...adavacning to a new part of the warrior caste sure that can happen at a young age, but the rest as given via the cartoon I don't see happening...and before you toss Kia's little adventure into the mix, do note that he was only shown enough on how to work the suite to get the job done...and even then he was not perfect at it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
03/22/02 07:42 AM
192.195.234.26
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Ah, yes, what you are refering ot in the cartoon is completely unrelated to the topic here. If you are going to nitpick in relation to elementals, complain how a group of scrawny freebirths who have had no training can put on a couple of suits and effectively blast their way past all the Clanners in sight. By the rules, they should have been struggling to get the armor to move.
meow
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Karagin
03/22/02 07:47 AM
63.173.170.139
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No it is related...since the first set of proto pilots would have the same problems you just mentioned...the point is you can't expect a mech pilot to know HOW to fly a fighter and you can't expect an aerospace pilot to know how battlearmor works and that is what the protomechs are more less asking of it's user, here is something that has power of a mech but does the job of infantry...oh and an ex-aerospace pilot is going to run it...some how I don't think this would have been beyond the testing stage when Op.Serpeant hit Huntress...but it's clear that SJ testing stage means full scale production with well trained pilots....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
03/22/02 08:08 AM
192.195.234.26
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And you cannot expect anyone to now how to fly an experimental design. Besides, protomechs are, as far as interface is relevant, completely unlike battlearmor. The pilot gets into a small interface chamber and then perceives that he is the protomech, he does not experience the joys of wearing 1 metric ton of heavy armor and trying to force it to move gracefully (which is difficult even with the myomers, otherwise elementals would not need to be so large).
That is the advantage of the human learning system, just because you were not trained from birth does not mean you cannot acquire the skill.
meow
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Karagin
03/22/02 08:55 AM
63.173.170.186
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Acquiring the skill would take years of training to learn the basics and the years to master them...for a mech pilot starting at age 20 trying to learn to pilot the protos would find it hard then he would to pilot a mech that he has been training on for 10 years plus...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/22/02 09:43 AM
204.245.128.3
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Over 500 registered users and only 13 votes. I wanted to see a bigger sampling in this poll.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
03/22/02 09:53 AM
192.195.234.26
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So then, obviously, it was impossible to test the first generation mechs, aerospace fighters, and battlearmor.
meow
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Karagin
03/22/02 10:00 AM
63.173.170.186
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so do I.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/22/02 10:02 AM
63.173.170.186
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no. that is not what am saying. I am trying to get across the idea that this is not as easy as FASA made happen. If it was then the Clans would have LAMS and we not be having the dissucsion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
03/22/02 12:33 PM
192.195.234.26
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If you have played Mechwarrior (the pencil and paper RPG, not the computer games) you would know that to pilot an LAM requires skill in both piloting/battlemech and piloting/aerotech. This is why the Clans do not use them, because an LAM pilot would have to undergo two distinctly different types of training to gain any advantage out of it.
meow
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Karagin
03/22/02 12:35 PM
63.173.170.179
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Never mind...forget I am bowing out of this one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/22/02 08:51 PM
24.44.238.62
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Protomech piloting requires no skill, IIRC, just EI. Remember, you *are* the protomech. Are you going to say that clan aerospace pilots don't know how to walk? Don't know how to shoot a rifle? Because that's all it takes. Anything else is handled by the on-board computer. Sure, it takes a while to get *used to* a bigger, stronger body, but you don't have to *learn major new skills* (like a cadet learning how to fly, for example).
Up until now, all vehicles have required massive amounts of training (even driving is hard) or massive amounts of strength (i.e. battle armor) combined with moderate amounts of skill (the way to move to get the myomers to activate). Protomechs are NOTHING like this.
Let's say you get your knees replaced. Sure you have to get accustomed to them, but you don't have to *learn to walk* again.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
TenakaFurey
03/23/02 06:14 AM
195.92.194.19
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Its not from the Cartoon, its from the FMs.
Mechwarrior piloting ASF - GB (the Khan)
Elemental in Mech - WiE.
To an extent, i don't agree with it. As Phelan comments in the BoKT, where would they get a cockpit big enough for an elemental/ mechwarrior but.....
EJL
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TenakaFurey
03/23/02 06:16 AM
195.92.194.19
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No -it takes skill and taringinto use a ProtoMech. Maybe you can percieve it to be your body, butt here are other factors - a different CoG and pov for example - that woudl make it tricky to use and operate without training.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
03/23/02 06:19 AM
195.92.194.19
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Ok - I voted!!!!
Happy?
Now, quit compalianing;_)
And don't look at me like that!!!
EJL
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Greyslayer
03/23/02 05:06 PM
137.172.211.9
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Not to mention the fact that the 'jump' like battlemechs which would be foreign to the aerospace pilot as well as different sensory perceptions.
Greyslayer
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Nightward
03/24/02 07:08 PM
203.134.12.8
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By the rules, they should have torn themselves to pieces trying to get them to move.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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novakitty
03/24/02 10:51 PM
209.242.100.230
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Last rules I saw for non-elemnals in clan battlearmor would not quite be what I would call "torn to pieces" but maybe "suffering from excessive stress induced self inflicted injuries", at least for the first five minutes, then probably torn a bit.
I cannot remember how long it takes a mechwarrior with a build of 3 to die from wounds inflicted by use of a suit of combat armor designed for an elemental with a body of 5 (using mechwarrior 2nd edition character definitions).
meow
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Karagin
03/25/02 08:27 AM
63.173.170.46
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All true, BUT the cross over crap started with Kia, a one time off chance thing, and the cartoon made a common anyone can do it, just like riding a bike thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/25/02 08:28 AM
63.173.170.46
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I am no longer discussing this part of the thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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