The Clans, Tirade #347

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NathanKell
06/11/02 09:44 PM
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And now, for Tirade #347...
Waste.

The Operation Audacity Typo thread reminded me of one (by no means the only, but this is enough for now) the nonsenical aspects of the Clans that chafe like a blister.

For a society that "abhors waste", the Clans are masters at making sure that, once a battle is begun, there will be the maximum possible destruction...of both sides! This comes from two aspects:

1. Bidding
2. Zellbrigen

Now, the latter can be (perhaps) excused as due to the rather infantile preoccupation with their barbaric, chest-thumping, he-man (etc.) concept of honor and glory. But the former in large part lacks that excuse (other than the he-man, chest-thumping, see-how-good-I-am bit). It serves to make sure that, by using the least possible force required to beat the enemy, the victor suffers nearly as much.

Example 1, with both rules in effect.
A trinary from Clan Stupid Squirrel challenges Clan Conan to a Trial of Possesion for a base. Clan Conan, after much fratricidal bidding, decides to use a trinary (that knows it's better than its opponent, so no support is needed) to defend. The warriors (not soldiers, warriors--and they revel in the term!) of the two trinaries engage each other; on the whole the fights are equal. At the end of the first round of "Honor Duels" a star's worth on either side manage to kill each other off, while a further star's worth on either side are eliminated by their opponents, leaving a star on each side...of seriously damaged units. In the second round, the two remaining stars slug it out, leaving only a couple mechs (or power suits) standing. The winner doesn't matter, since both sides have lost.

Example 2, with sanity in effect.
A trinary from Clan Stupid Squirrel challenges Clan Grownabrain to a Trial of Possesion for a base. Clan Grownabrain destroys them from orbit. Err, they send a cluster or two in response. Either way, the end is the same--Clan Grownabrain has emerged victorious with only half the waste of the above encounter. For even less waste, it could have sent out a few clusters of Targeting Computer/Pulse Laser equipped mechs and disabled the Stupid Squirrels' units for salvage.

I hope you get my drift
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
06/11/02 10:26 PM
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Following that, here is an idea....remove the rules on Clan combat, ie throw the book out the window, and allow them to fight all the time like the Inner Sphere...I don't think there is any need to state who would win if this was done...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
novakitty
06/11/02 11:02 PM
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Some Clans (exteme Wardens) have grown up and discarded those foolish rituals.

If the orbital bombardment idea were used often, all humanity would be Snow Ravens, or dead.
meow
NathanKell
06/11/02 11:19 PM
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And I didn't think there was any need to state that this has jack to do with game balance and everything to do with believability / consistency.
Who's talking about game balance? Not me...I'm talking about holes in logic big enough to drive an Atlas through...
Did I say "Let's all be little Clantech munchkins"? No. I said: for a society based on the avoidance of waste, why be wasteful? Or, is this wasteful or not?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
06/11/02 11:22 PM
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General Note:
This topic has nothing to do with munch nor game balance nor I-want-to-play-Clan-with-no-rules thinking (read: munch).
What it is about is what I feel is one of the major glaring inconsistencies of Clan society: the value placed on avoiding waste vs. the value placed on bidding and zellbrigen.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
Acolyte
06/11/02 11:32 PM
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Game balance ended with the double heat sink. The clans just destroyed the balance of power in the universe and polerized into good and evil. Which side is which depends on perspective, of course, providing that you're not a fully upgraded with clan tech inner sphere munchtech unit.

I like the shadowy no one is a good guy universe of 3025. It's why I had hopes for the MW Dark Age. Too bad they have no plans for a source book......

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Karagin
06/11/02 11:56 PM
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I wasn't talking about balance either, I was trying to say their rules of combat are there so they feel important and given their history they seem them as godsend since it prevents the full scale barbarianism of their early history.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
06/11/02 11:57 PM
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Bombing a planet is fine and great but what good is wrecked world?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
06/12/02 12:52 AM
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Consider this scenario, however...

Clan Massive Militia sends a Cluster to defend a position.
Clan Overkill sends 3 Clusters to wipe them out.
Clan Massive Militia reinforces with 1 Cluster of Reserves.
Clan Overkill commits 2 Clusters of reserves.

While this massive, 3 month battle gets played out, Clan Massive Militia brings in Jumpships with 4 more Clusters
etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like a tad bit more waste than 2 Trinaries facing off

Simply put, the "honourable" bidding system requires that both sides stick to their original force, thus preventing escalation. In the long run, this saves resources.

Of course, it's only natural that such a system (especially in a warrior caste society) would evolve into an "honor" competition.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
06/12/02 01:35 AM
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A wrecked world is favorable over a productive world used by an enemy. Plants can be seeded on a dead world (if it can support them) and mines can be built on one whose mines were destroyed. Raw planetary resources can be harvested by anyone with the initial resources neccessary to do so (which varies), so it is tactically better to keep planets uninhabited until your own forces have need to expand.
meow
CrayModerator
06/12/02 06:21 AM
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I've ranted about this exact same thing before.

Deploying extremely excessive numbers is not wasteful at all compared to neatly matched combats, and orbital bombardment of enemy ground units is EXTREMELY cost- and material-efficient...for the bombarding side. The bombarders destroy about as much of the enemy as they would have with ground troops, but for only the cost of fuel for the fusion reactor(s) that powered the naval energy weapons.

Though that's outside Clan traditions. Within the Clan way of fighting (warrior dueling warrior), bidding and Zellbriggen (sp?) make sense. Once you decide fighting waste is more important than fighting for honor, you get back to the preceding paragraph.

Though the downside to this "massive overkill" is escalation. Oh, well. That just leads to the "first strike" concept and "local, overwhelming superiority before they can get in reinforcements."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
06/12/02 06:38 AM
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>While this massive, 3 month battle gets played out

The battle should not last 3 days, let alone 3 months, particularly if one side or the other has space travel. Spot enemy bases, make orbital hops to enemy bases (15 minutes from point A to B), trash enemy bases. There isn't time to bring in reinforcements.

If the battle did last months then, yes, I see the escalation problem, but there's no reason for a side with temporary, local excessive numbers and space travel to not thrash an opponent [1] in BT.

[1] Sneaky guerillas excepted.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
SuperCharger
06/12/02 08:10 AM
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<<
Bombing a planet is fine and great but what good is wrecked world?
>>

Well, the Task Force Serpent people didn't completely wreck Huntress, and they used limited orbital bombardment (to save the ineffective Lyran general's butt). You don't have to destroy the whole world, as long as your enemy's forces aren't all holed up in the factory complexes full of goodies...
CrayModerator
06/12/02 09:00 AM
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Orbital bombardment affects a very limited area, particularly given the numbers and concentration of BT forces. A few strikes against military bases will destroy the entire (few clusters' worth) of defenders. A couple of churned kilometers out of millions is nothing. Commercial logging and mining do a lot more damage.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
06/12/02 01:26 PM
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So you are limiting the use to a small area wow...that isn't realy going to bring a planet to it's knees.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
06/12/02 01:31 PM
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For orbital bombardment to cower the populus you need to hit cities and other thing close enough to the civilans so it is they who force their military to surrender.

Blast a field army is all fine and great, but that just means the other spread out and you have a gurrillea war to fight once you land. Blasting a couple of the cities and then laying waste to the gather armies would be more effect and the end results is cowered populus and you can take over the planet with out having to much trouble from pratisans and such.

Besides, in this game only warships can do bombardment and even then it's only with their weapons, Focht's idea of tossing astdroids at a planet is more of what one would be doing long before landing the first unit of his army.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
06/12/02 01:33 PM
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While what you suggest is excellent for the Inner Sphere the Clans won't do it. They will pick a site and fight over it tell one side has one then all is over with and done and the loser goes home.

So using an IS template on the Clans is wrong.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NathanKell
06/12/02 02:00 PM
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And what does this have to do with the dichotomy of Clans' bidding and Clans' abhoring of waste?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
06/12/02 02:01 PM
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And is this not wasteful?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
06/12/02 02:05 PM
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I'm not talking about the system so much as the wasteful bids themselves.
If you know your opponent is coming with a trinary, and is constrained by bidding, why not go the route that entails the minimum waste--bid a cluster for defense?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
CrayModerator
06/12/02 02:17 PM
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I know Clans won't go for it. I mentioned that in my "Bravo!" reply, above. I was speaking in general terms along the lines of what would be least wasteful, not what the Clans would do.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (06/12/02 02:21 PM)
CrayModerator
06/12/02 02:20 PM
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Exactly the point. A limited area bombardment will bring the planet's military to its knees. Or rather, to its grave. I don't want the rest of the planet on its knees. I want healthy, tax producing infrastructure and people.

After toasting the local military from orbit, you send in the garrison troops, which should be hordes of infantry. Tens or hundreds of thousands, depending on the local population.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
06/12/02 05:34 PM
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You are missing the point, so what if you defeat the military...some one will turn gurrillea since you didn't cow the populus.

The best way to that is destory something they will notice and that would be a city...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
06/12/02 05:37 PM
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You are not listening...the Clans setup their rules of combat after seeing the horrors of war first hand on levels that most never see.

Their forefathers faught Amaris and his goons to liberate the Terran Hegemongy. In doing so they saw all kinds of horrors and desturction. Then later on they ended up fighting their own civil war and revisiting those same horrors and barbarous acts.

Thus Nicholas setup a system that would vent the warrior drive and not wipe out the whole system of government at the same time.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
06/12/02 05:41 PM
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Simple, destorying one city to cower the planet is a lot cheaper then blasting the whole planet.

But again, all of us are trying use logical thinking here and that doesn't always work with the given system.

We know the Clans would rather fight one on one duals, for both reasons of warrior prowless and less waste, instead of turning the guns of the whole star on a single target.

The idea of them use orbital bombardment is the same, the Jags used in on a city a that had rebelled. Once the city was destoryed, Turtle Bay, the planet citizens stopped their rebellion mainly do to the utter shock. Thus, the loss of one city saved the lives of millions of others. To the Clans this would be fair trade off. While to others the act would be barbaric and wrong.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NathanKell
06/12/02 05:56 PM
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But this is precisely what I'm saying--one-on-one duels are *not* less wasteful than combining fire. In fact, they're far *more* wasteful, because it leaves the victor nearly as destroyed as the loser.

What I'm saying is that bidding low and zellbrigen don't jibe with "less waste." What I'm asking is what reason(s) could the Clans have for favoring bidding low and zellbrigen OVER avoiding waste?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
06/12/02 05:57 PM
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Yes.
However, that system is very wasteful.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
06/12/02 06:06 PM
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Yes, more of the forces sent into a combat will be damaged or lost than in conventional warfare.

However, if both sides adhere to the rules of honor, the total amount of forces sent in will be much smaller than those used in conventional warfare. Both forces lose a star, instead of one force losing a cluster, and the other suffering some damage to their galaxy.
meow
Karagin
06/12/02 06:11 PM
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I gave that reason to you. The two lower the cost be turning the fighting into a contest, thus the over all damage is done to a smaller group of combants and the fighting is limited to them alone.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
06/12/02 06:13 PM
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No it is not. The battles are fought among a set number of warriors. That is it. Not whole armies tearing up the landscape. A small group fights and then when one side is defeated or surrenders the battle is over. A lot less are killed and the damage is localized to only the units that actually fought.

Thus they keep things on a smaller scale meaning that the death of a few warriors ends the fighting with out millions killed.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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