Diwinlding reasources in BT...

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Karagin
06/12/02 01:07 AM
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OkaY what I am posting below is not about BT techincally, but the issue brought up in the article does play a big role in the game's background...

Using the article as the bases how could the events in it be placed on the Inner Sphere...

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http://www.spacedaily.com/news/earth-02m.html

It seems that there will always be plenty of conflicts for the world in general to sort out. What would be needed for the conclusion of a conflict over forced migration and dwindling resources, and what are the likeliest places to be hit?

Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
novakitty
06/12/02 01:47 AM
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Entertaining. A few errors, but that is what fear-mongers are good at.

The tranlation of the concept of resource drain to Battletech would indicate that planets closest to earth (and the Kerensky Cluster) will have less resource potential than those furthur out. This loss of potential should only be significant on mining worlds, or others than export more mass than they import, but eventually have some effect on most worlds.

This was seen when the Jaguars were running out of raw materials, and attempted to make a more efficient combat unit, but ended up with protomechs. I suspect that most forces are more rational in their use of resources than the Jaguars, so it might not be as much of a problem elsewhere, but should hove some influence.

Tourist worlds could potentially suffer from this also. Millions of tourists taking back a few kilos of souveneirs will cause some interesting changes to local mass if not countered by importing an equivalent mass. If left untreated in harsh situations, the planet's orbit and spin could be affected.

One last point, asteroid feilds would provide a good source for metals and I have not considered if that would cause any change to the general model.

Now I sit back and await the nit-pickers.
meow
Gangrene
06/12/02 11:30 PM
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I don't think dwindling resources would be a big problem in Battletech. Space is no longer a barrier to expansion, so there is always something beyond the current limits. Plus with such technology they should theoretically be able to access resources previously unaccessible to the human race. For example, minerals and metals in asteroids or gas from gas giants.

The only thing that might become scarce is terran-like living space, but that's if the population grew dramatically to fill existing space. Btech fiction seems to indicate that most planets are sparcely populated at best, though.
Gangrene
Karagin
06/12/02 11:51 PM
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The how do you explain the problems faced by the Jags and their dwinlding reasoure base?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NathanKell
06/12/02 11:59 PM
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"The same excuse we use every night, Pinky..."

Plot device.

Or, heck, they're Jaguars:

Jag 1: "Waah, we're running out of resources."
Jag 2: "There's a whole asteroid belt in each of our systems, ripe for the picking!"

{pause}

Jags 1 and 2: "Waah, we're running out of resources."
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
06/13/02 12:54 AM
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An asteroid field is not a limitless source of materials. Have you considered that the asteroid fields would be the first target for any society with the technology to harvest them?

Asteroids provide a high mineral content, with less digging and minimal energy lost due to gravity. Any group that can make an aerospace fighter and a battlemech should know how to get mining equipment on an asteroid. They were probably the first source to dry up.
meow
Karagin
11/24/05 03:29 PM
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Yet that is arguement used to defend WoB and their ablity to build and build and build and build and clone and clone...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Auren_Shiro
11/24/05 08:55 PM
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Do remember that Wobbies are spawned from their fanaticism, they just think "We need more Wobbies!" and boom, more wobbies. It explains the occasionaly 150 man charge in Mechassault against a Timber Wolf. Same thing goes for mechs. A bit of background information, Wolf's Dragoons hunt down Wobbies in Mechassault 1 and 2, and actually work with our neighborhood DCMS contingent. In anycase, In those two games, your mech kill count is in the regimental to RCT range. That's not including vehicles.
/rant

If you think about it, those asteroid belts are not so easily exploited, as the rocks are most likely moving, thus you cannot have a truly permanent base in a belt, as *Borrowing from Homeworld*, A large vessel is needed to be in the neighborhood for resource collection. And even then, I don't think anyone is willing to spend weeks at a time in space. It doesn't do too well for the person. And other then mech factories, and vehicle factories, I don't think heavy industrial equipment is easy to come by.
Need...more...Nevcrack...
NileIngrams
11/24/05 11:07 PM
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Well, when we consider the Succession Wars, there have been countless examples of Solar Systems not providing enough of the basics for life - namely food, clean water and oxygen. There have been many worlds abandoned outright because of breakdowns in the Water Purification Plants required to maintain the local population. Also, worlds that produce ample food have become strategic prizes for War Lords to target. Sometimes the grain and other foodstuffs from one world support many smaller outposts in less habitable worlds in nearby star systems.

Other resources aren't that hard to come by, as long as you have enough people and machines to extract, refine and manufacture it, but maintaining the planetary populations are much more difficult! I guess if there were some dire change in a planet's geological conditions, that could easily trigger a shortage in the basics.... enough to cause real problems.
NileIngrams NI! - The Killer of Threads!
In the time before the return of the heirs of Kerensky,
when the Successor Lords had tired of bathing worlds in Nuclear Madness,
there was an age of High Adventure!
CrayModerator
12/01/05 05:00 PM
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Quote:

If you think about it, those asteroid belts are not so easily exploited, as the rocks are most likely moving, thus you cannot have a truly permanent base in a belt,




By that logic, you couldn't mine a planet since planets move, too.

The motion of asteroids is trivial for BT fusion engines to conquer. It's not even a big problem for near-future mining operations, you just need to be patient. Space is the ultimate in low cost shipping environments (once you're off a planet). It's easier to move ten million tons of ore across a solar system than it is to move 10,000 tons of ore across the Great Lakes.

Quote:

large vessel is needed to be in the neighborhood for resource collection. And even then, I don't think anyone is willing to spend weeks at a time in space. It doesn't do too well for the person. And other then mech factories, and vehicle factories, I don't think heavy industrial equipment is easy to come by.




...I disagree completely...

I think you're underestimating the resources found in even small asteroids. A small nickel-iron asteroid (just 5 miles across) has enough iron in it to meet the entire iron needs of Earth for about 3-5 millennia (at the current consumption rate of 400 million tons/year).

So, if you plan on playing out the asteroid's resources in a short period ("weeks," as you said) you're going to need resource extraction equipment that just dwarfs every single mining operation on Earth - extracting 1 TRILLION tons of iron from its ore in just a few weeks would require a truly epic mining platform.

Alternately, if you don't plan on competing with every iron mine on Earth, you could be on that little asteroid for millennia. In that case, your mining facility will doubtlessly include habitats with features that makes weeks (or years) in space much more healthy - like gravdecks and some radiation shielding (there'll be plenty of slag to pile into a nice, thick shield).

With BT fusion engines, any asteroid in the Main Belt is no more than 5 days at 1G from Earth. It would be easy to imagine miners working, say, 60-day shifts: 30 days on the asteroid, 10 days in transit (both ways), and 20 days off. Or some variation thereof. BT's fusion engines and gravdecks mean the miners never have to worry about micro-gravity health loss.

Quote:

An asteroid field is not a limitless source of materials. Have you considered that the asteroid fields would be the first target for any society with the technology to harvest them?




Well, it's true an asteroid field isn't a limitless source of materials, but Sol's asteroid belt should be able to supply every single metal and ceramic need for the entire Inner Sphere from 2000AD to 3067AD, and it should be a long way from being played out.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/asteroid-mining1.htm

Quote:

One NASA report estimates that the mineral wealth of the asteroids in the asteroid belt might exceed $100 billion for each of the six billion people on Earth. John S. Lewis, author of the space mining book Mining the Sky, has said that an asteroid with a diameter of one kilometer would have a mass of about two billion tons. There are perhaps one million asteroids of this size in the solar system. One of these asteroids, according to Lewis, would contain 30 million tons of nickel, 1.5 million tons of metal cobalt and 7,500 tons of platinum.




30 trillion tons of nickel, 1.5 trillion tons of cobalt, 7.5 billion tons of platinum...and about 150 trillion tons of iron, based on nickel-iron ratios in asteroids. That's enough to give every man, woman, and child in the Inner Sphere 30 tons of steel, 6 tons of nickel, 300kg of cobalt, and 1.5kg of platinum, and that's not tapping the larger asteroids of the Solar asteroid belt.

Asteroids are such a wonderful source of resources. They're so easy to access compared to planetary mines, in both terms of transportation and reaching the resources within the asteroids. It's so effortless to shove around a few million tons of ore from a micro-gravity asteroid to a zero-gravity industrial facility, even if they're many AU apart. And mining efforts don't have to worry about tunnel collapses or the like - on small asteroids, you can just rip your way through the overburden to reach any point on the asteroid's interior, and for less effort than it takes to strip mine on Earth (less gravity = less energy lifting and moving debris).

The only shame about them is that they're on the wrong side of deep planetary gravity wells, but that's not a problem for BT fusion engines.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
12/01/05 05:02 PM
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Let me guess this is the logic that TPTB are using to justify the WoB growth supurt...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
12/01/05 05:13 PM
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Quote:

Let me guess this is the logic that TPTB are using to justify the WoB growth supurt...




Nope. Asteroid mining seems pretty overlooked in BT (hence all the problems in the Inner Sphere where resources running short - that wouldn't fly if asteroids were mined). IMO, the Inner Sphere got spoiled by finding thousands of habitable planets and never had to look to asteroids for mining after 2100AD.

It's also unnecessary for WoB (or any House). WoB's military growth spurt is small, industrially speaking. The entire WoB mech force needs less than 1 million tons of materials (unless it's an order of magnitude larger than I suspect...but even then, it wouldn't need much in the way of raw materials.) However played out Terran and Martian mines are in the 3060s, there's still more than enough to meet the trivial needs of the WoB militia. Hell, WoB can probably get the tonnage of materials it needs from landfills.

Also note that WoB is buying off the open Inner Sphere market, meaning many of the WoB mechs aren't built with Terran resources.

Of course, the WoB military growth seems to be higher than most Spheroid powers except the Comguards, but that's a separate issue of military industrial capacity. I'm just saying raw materials won't be a stumbling block for WoB even if it built everything exclusively on Terra.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (12/01/05 05:15 PM)
Karagin
12/01/05 05:14 PM
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Right! What I am I thinking! Terra is the Golden Goose! :rolleye:
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
12/01/05 05:16 PM
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Quote:

Right! What I am I thinking! Terra is the Golden Goose! :rolleye:




For all the resources that WoB needs to build even an AFFC-sized military, it could be stuck on a small, metal-poor planet. Terra is overkill for WoB.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
12/01/05 05:16 PM
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If you say so...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
12/01/05 05:26 PM
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Quote:

If you say so...




Sure. You can do the math as easily as I can. Watch:

First, pick some over-sized, insane quantity of mechs for WoB: say, 100 mech regiments, 50 WoB divisions.
Next, pick a tonnage for the mechs. Let's say 100 tons each.
Total tonnage of materials required: 100x108x100 = 1,080,000 tons.

Next step, determine if that's a lot of raw materials. It's surfin' time:

1) After some surfing, you should find that 2005AD global, annual consumption of iron is about 400-450 million tons
2) Annual global consumption of oil is about 2-3 billion tons
3) The US produced 50 million tons of plastics in 1993
4) Annual global aluminum production is about 25 million tons

Clearly, these are all quantities of materials that dwarf the needs of building even a worst-case WoB mech militia (which is built over 15 years, 1 year).

In reality, WoB's militia is probably smaller and has an average tonnage below 100, so the required tonnage of materials is less than a piddly 1 million tons, and thus dwarfed by the output of a resource-starved future Terra. (Though Terra manages to stay pretty wealthy - its 6 billion people have a sweet lifestyle.)

Now, I know there's a question of mech factory capacity on Terra and the Inner Sphere to build WoB (at worst case) 7 regiments a year, but I don't see a limitation in raw materials.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
12/01/05 05:30 PM
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Cray defend the WoB storyline all you want. I don't buy any of it and so that is that. As I said to you the other day, spin it how you want to defend it, the bottom line is the writters aren't doing that great of a job of selling the storyline and it shows.

Until ALL of the issues raised by the fans about the flaws and such with the whole rise from splinter group to Uberpower are answered in a manner that both fits the game and follows the same rules as players have to follow, then a lot of us aren't going to take the storyline seriously or even support it.

You are trying to defend this with current data, and the game is set in what year?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Auren_Shiro
12/01/05 05:35 PM
65.96.9.70

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Perhaps then, its not a matter of materials, as Cray just proved to my benefit. That would mean, since the Clans don't have much in the way of an 'economy' with cash and such, if they even got their hands on one belt, we could see a lot more clammers on the way.

Perhaps then, the real resource of BT is Factories. After all, what the hell are you going to do with all of the materials? Build the Great Wall of WoB? With Mechs fusing huge things together?
Need...more...Nevcrack...
CrayModerator
12/01/05 07:24 PM
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Quote:

Perhaps then, its not a matter of materials, as Cray just proved to my benefit. That would mean, since the Clans don't have much in the way of an 'economy' with cash and such, if they even got their hands on one belt, we could see a lot more clammers on the way.




Er...not necessarily. Lack of cash doesn't mean lack of an economy. You still have a limited amount of labor and resources in the Clan system, even if they don't track it with the distilled labor-resource marker known as "money." And the Clans idle a hideous amount of potential production with their "no unnecessary production" theories. It just stifles any entrepreneurial efforts to expand their economy, which explains why the Clans sulked on their resource-poor homeworlds rather than expanding into the millions of uninhabited star systems around them.

Quote:

Perhaps then, the real resource of BT is Factories. After all, what the hell are you going to do with all of the materials? Build the Great Wall of WoB? With Mechs fusing huge things together?




Pretty much. There are only so many factories that build battlemechs, and they sit upon a huge pyramid of rare, supporting industries. Analogously (sp), the US was churning out about 100 million tons of steel c1940, but only 10,000 tons was armor-grade steel fit for battleships. It was a real bottleneck on warship production.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
12/01/05 07:31 PM
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Quote:

Cray defend the WoB storyline all you want. I don't buy any of it and so that is that.




Karagin, you've raised some valid problems with the WoB Jihad. These are good ones:

Terran battlemech factory capacity? That's a valid objection.
The surprise of the Jihad? That's a valid objection.
The stupidity of Steiner and FS leadership at the 4th Whitting Conference? That's a valid objection.
The amount of embezzlement managed by WoB in the FWL? That's a valid objection.

There are quite a few others, and I'm sure you can find them.

But suggesting that a future society (with vastly more advanced materials, industrial, and mining technologies than our own) will have trouble producing a tiny fraction of 20th Century raw material output is not a valid objection. I gave the numbers for modern resource production so you could see what a future industrial base could dwarf into insignificance.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (12/01/05 07:43 PM)
Auren_Shiro
12/01/05 08:41 PM
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1) I'm not sure about Terran Battlemech Factories, but I could see how the WoB got their machines from the FWL's industrial might.
2) The Wobbies wouldn'tve told anyone, after all, they're wobbies!
3) As I don't know about this conference, I can't say anything about it, although Katherine must die!
4) See point 1

I have to agree with the industrial out-put, but if you look at it by Neveron terms, a 150 CF factory can only spit out some 4 mil production of equipment per nevyear, so I'm not so sure about that.
Need...more...Nevcrack...
CrayModerator
12/01/05 10:09 PM
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Quote:

1) I'm not sure about Terran Battlemech Factories, but I could see how the WoB got their machines from the FWL's industrial might.




You can get WoB's reported battlefield successes by calculating their growth based on the example set by the Comguards, 3052-3067. With FWL funding, Terra, and the chunk of Comstar that they started with, WoB could have every bit of Comstar's funding, despite Karagin's negative spin that they're a "little splinter group." They might've been small in 3052, but the flood of trained Comstar personnel meant they were nothing of the sort by 3060.

Quote:

2) The Wobbies wouldn'tve told anyone, after all, they're wobbies!




In fact, Dawn of the Jihad makes clear that the Inner Sphere intelligence community was fairly aware of WoB's "secret" military strength. What it wasn't ready for was WoB's surprise reaction to the failure of the 4th Whitting Conference. WoB's ROM wasn't the ROM of Comstar in the Third Succession War.

Quote:

3) As I don't know about this conference, I can't say anything about it, although Katherine must die!




Katherine was already shacked up with Vlad Ward by the 4th Conference. It was her post-Civil War replacements that screwed up things by voting against the Star League. I mean, it was REALLY dumb for the Lyran Alliance and Federated Suns to bail on the Star League. Maybe the Capellans had a reason, but there was no good cause for the LA and FS to leave the Star League.

When the Star League collapsed, WoB started its WMD tantrum.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
12/01/05 11:42 PM
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Once again:

Manpower: are they cloning the troops

Money: EVERYTHING cost money in BT, yet some how the WoB get's around this every time.

Constuction time: It doesn't matter what the future gives you, it will still take time to make the mechs and vehicles and warships and fighters etc...they don't happen over night and that is what is we as the fans are expected to belive.

Supply: again the money issue comes up, food, fuel, medicine, ammo, spare parts, transport cost, training etc...all of that needs to be taken care and yet once again the WoB can do all of this and do in it secret, yet still have a military that can take on the IS and Clans long enough to shake the whole IS foundation.

And it is a valid objection to point out that just because the WoB holds ONE plantary system, that was beat to snought by the SLDF and it's fight with Amaris and never really recovered. Yet we are told that since they hold this single world that they can raise an army, train it, supply it, equip it, and move it around all because of their hold on Terra.

Meanwhile the rest of IS and Clan space can't seem to match that and they have 3 times the number of worlds and systems under their control.

I am sorry but NONE that has been explained or even remotely covered in any fashion that gives a reasonable and ,for the Battletech universe and setting, logical explanation for it.

Having the 5th Succession War come about isn't a bad thing, doing it as they have done so far makes it all look unthought out, rushed and poorly written and details not handled to give it a smooth flow into the past historical events.

Your numbers really don't tell us anything since NOT everything needed by the WoB will be on Terra, unless you are going to tell us that they have all the comments and items needed to make fusion engines as well as all the comments to make endo and ferro as well as the factories to make all of the weapons the WoB needs to outfit the mechs and vehicles and fighters and warships and dropships as well as the fuel for the later group. The list of areas that make hash out the whole background to the Jihad have been listed. And all that ever get's said is you spinning it around and around so it looks pretty yet never once do the points get answered.

So please stop spin doctoring the Jihad, let it sink and flownder like it should.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
12/01/05 11:46 PM
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Quote:

WoB could have every bit of Comstar's funding, despite Karagin's negative spin that they're a "little splinter group." They might've been small in 3052, but the flood of trained Comstar personnel meant they were nothing of the sort by 3060.




So you want us to believe that in a mere 8 years they go from the splinter group that were to a major power house all because they can skim money from the FWL and get an untapped manpower source and take Terra...right, okay...I think we have all seen this before it's called Star Wars and the whole Clone troopers plot line...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NileIngrams
12/02/05 12:18 AM
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I think I know what you are trying to say here Karagin... you aren't disputing the fact that the WoB
could put together the material and supplies required to take Earth and prosecute the Jihad - what he is
trying to question is the "MAN POWER" required to fill the Mechs, Aerospace Fighters, Dropships and Warships... not to
mention the factories needed to make everything possible. They would have to have set up some pretty nasty re-education
camps to mould the minds of the fanatics they need to carry out their bidding. I bet "Ideal War" avoided what was really
happening on Gibson - the mass re-education camps taking in hordes of people from all over the IS to convert them to Evil
WoBblyness. Thomas Marik had to have turned a blind-eye to his master's machinations on Gibson.
NileIngrams NI! - The Killer of Threads!
In the time before the return of the heirs of Kerensky,
when the Successor Lords had tired of bathing worlds in Nuclear Madness,
there was an age of High Adventure!
Karagin
12/02/05 12:39 AM
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More or less. I have been harping on the whole manpower issue for a long time now and it's one of the areas that I point out that get's skated by everytime someone runs up to defend the whole Jihad.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NileIngrams
12/02/05 12:43 AM
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I just thought of an interesting thing that I remember mentioned from the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy.
Comstar handled most of the captured Inner Sphere mechwarriors and other staff(those that weren't bonded) taken by the Clans - most were thrown into ComStar "WoBbly" re-education camps... what happened to those warriors bent by ComStar? Most of them would have been so badly damaged by their time in the camps that it would not have taken much effort for the WoB to recruit them into their expanded ranks. Sick.

Man, recruitment for the Jihad was happening well before the Schism!
NileIngrams NI! - The Killer of Threads!
In the time before the return of the heirs of Kerensky,
when the Successor Lords had tired of bathing worlds in Nuclear Madness,
there was an age of High Adventure!


Edited by NileIngrams (12/02/05 12:52 AM)
Karagin
12/02/05 12:56 AM
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Could have been, but still...the housing, feeding etc..for the warriors as well as the group that supports them isn't something you can easily hide for a long time...yet some how WoB manges to do it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NileIngrams
12/02/05 03:53 AM
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the WoB still has many agents in Comstar.... they could have just "altered" a few supply requests from the other houses....
it's great when you can read and alter other people's mail!
NileIngrams NI! - The Killer of Threads!
In the time before the return of the heirs of Kerensky,
when the Successor Lords had tired of bathing worlds in Nuclear Madness,
there was an age of High Adventure!
Karagin
12/02/05 07:30 AM
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True, but sooner or later the group that is getting messed with will find away to stop the stealing, so while a short term source it's not the finial or overall answer.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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