novakitty
07/02/02 10:05 PM
209.242.100.230
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A hypothetical struck me. What would have been different in the Clan invasion if the Inner Sphere was rotated 180 degrees?
For clarity, imagine that the direction on the maps labeled corewand and rimward were on opposite sides of the states. Same relative positions, just different states between the Clans and Earth.
meow
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PeterSmith
07/02/02 10:12 PM
4.17.223.29
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Probably the same way it looks now, except whatever planet would have replaced Tukyyad would probably be a little further away from Terrra.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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MacLeod
07/03/02 01:28 AM
65.93.149.147
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No, it would be quite different. There would be no Clan Wolf-in-Exile, because Phelan Kell would never have been captured. IlKahn Leo Showers would not have been killed, because Tyra Miraborg wouldn't have flown into the bridge of the Wolf flagship at Radstadt. The Capellans and the FWL would have taken severe losses due to the instabilities of both realms, and the Capellan March would probably have lost all worlds before Kittery. Hanse Davion wouldn't have died, because Sun-Tzu wouldn't take the throne, because Romano wouldn't have ordered Justin Allard killed, which made Candace come and kill her. There would have been no Battle of Luthien, and the alliance between houses Davion and Kurita probably never would have happened.
In short, it would be quite different.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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PeterSmith
07/03/02 01:36 AM
4.17.223.29
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Oh, I agree the details would have been completely different. However, I think the result of the invasion itself, the Clans being stopped and held at a specific line, would have been the same.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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MacLeod
07/03/02 01:41 AM
65.93.149.147
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That might not have happened. Possibly. Remember, I said that Leo Showers wouldn't have been killed, so Precentor Martial Focht would have had to deal with him for the surrogate battle, and since Showers was a Crusader he would not have agreed as easily to a truce. In fact, he might have ignored the Precentor Martial and kept on going towards Terra. At the least, the Tukayyid Treaty wouldn't have been fifteen years. It would have been more like five (one Clan generation). Therefore, all of the fluff and the designs is TROs 3057 on through 3067 would have to be redone. Some designs wouldn't come out, others would have different stories.
If the Clans came from the other side, then, well, the Sphere would hit the fan, so to speak.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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PeterSmith
07/03/02 01:46 AM
4.17.223.29
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Let's not forget the fact that the Clans would have hit the two largest Periphery powers instead of the random pirate group. That would have worked in the favor of the Inner Sphere, and I can see a Taurian or a Magistry pilot pulling a Miraborg.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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MacLeod
07/03/02 01:49 AM
65.93.149.147
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Hmmm... I kind of doubt that the Magistracy or Concordat would have put up too much fight... they were weaker than the FRR... Definately had worse pilots... But I guess one of them could have tried a Miraborg... but then there comes the point that the ilKahn might not have been on any ship that would get attacked, and that... well...
Hey, there wouldn't be any Xin Sheng movement! Hehehe... no more Sun-Tzu... MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Cray
07/03/02 07:02 AM
64.83.29.242
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In other words, the Cappies take it on the nose.
Well, actually, I'd give the Capellans better marks for fending off the invaders than the FRR. They get positively savage when it comes to home defense and Kittery is an example of how nasty they can be with even generous invaders. Sure, sure, Romano's a nasty leader and you might think the Clans would appear to be the better option for the Cappies, but I don't think the Cappies are trained to think that way. They're fanatically loyal people.
Amusing thought: Romano's reaction to the Clans when things get desperate.
More amusing: Kali vs the Clans.
The FWL is in a poor position to handle the Clans in 3050. It hasn't enjoyed the economic boom the (irony) Clans brought it. It will not enjoy that economic boom, which came with the Lyrans' loss of key industrial worlds and the DC's/FC's craving for guns, guns, guns.
Depending on exactly where the Clan invasion falls, the FC might not be touched.
The Magistracy gave a good showing in the Reunification War. It wouldn't give the Clans a good stand-up fight (snowball in a blast furnace), but the guerilla war might be on par with the nastiness the Capellans could muster.
Taurians. Heh. I think fighting a guerilla war with the Capellans would be more pleasant. Then again, the Clans might not go through the Concordat.
The FC. Would it send military aid? Troop support? The way FASA wrote the FC, I suspect it would send troops.
The Combine. Would the Combine get frisky with the FC? I suspect Theodore is written as too goodie-goodie. You could have the FWL's economic boom in the Combine, fed by FS materials, paid for Lyran investors. The Combine sits out the war like the FWL, but reaps a fortune to speed recovery from its recent warring with the FC and FRR.
Amusing thought: a Clan invasion through FWL/CC space puts the spotlight on the less-played Houses and marginalizes everybody's favored FC and DC.
Conclusion: Less of a stand-up fight, more guerilla action.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Khan_Robinette
07/03/02 08:36 AM
216.24.92.31
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Lets see....
first of all my Clan would have moved.
THEN
teh Clans would have ripped through House Liao and to a lesser extent House Marik.
Clan Wold ( as the underdog at the beginning of the invasion) would have been assigned the zon running right up the middle throgh Liao Space. Davion would have caught some of the fringe fighting also.
Hmm intersting......Macavity does make an interesting point. This would be good to play out, maybe as an idea to start on after our current BT dies.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/03/02 08:45 AM
216.24.92.31
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Another good point concerningt Leo Showers, he may not have actually ever told Comstar what the real objective was. He would have continued to order a drive forward and would have relied less upon Comstar than Clan Pup did.
Maybe the Kali thugees would have raised a little hell on the planets, but I think the Cappies would have been torn apart by a lightning strike.
Reason? There would have probably ben two full Clans hitting the Capellans and I do not see Hanse sending troops to save Liao. Marik...maybe...but he would have troubles of his own. Teddy was too nice to everyone, I think he would have sat back and watched, or maybe instigated a strike on the Lyran side of things if his Kapitan fellows begged long enough.
Another point is that teh original defenders (fedcom and Combine) started receiving refiit kits assembled in Marik space halfway through the invasion. A lot of those factories would probably be gone or under Clan control by that half-way point in this version.
That is if there was even a lull in the fighting. The original lull was caused by Leo the Smoke Kitty getting smoked. So if he had not died, no lull.
Oh I like this idea...my players will hate it, but I like it.
Must continue ideas in Word.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Cray
07/03/02 11:34 AM
64.83.29.242
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>Another point is that teh original defenders (fedcom and Combine) started receiving refiit kits assembled in Marik space halfway through the invasion. A lot of those factories would probably be gone or under Clan control by that half-way point in this version.
Counterpoint: Marik started building those refit kits because the Lyrans had just lost many of their choice industrial worlds. Now the Lyrans get to build them for Marik and...well, probably the defenders of the Sarna March, since the Capellans won't leave a rump state like the FRR did. The DC might enjoy an economic boom, too.
>The original lull was caused by Leo the Smoke Kitty getting smoked. So if he had not died, no lull.
That works both ways. The lull gave the Clans valuable time to fix their choking supply lines. I almost (but don't) feel sorry for the Clans strung out trying to digest Romano's Confederation. I seriously doubt Capellan guerillas will stop overthrowing the GB and Wolf garrisons the way the FRRians did when the GBs threatened orbital bombardment. Cappies are too danged fanatical when cornered and without a lull, the Clans just won't have a chance to properly occupy Capellan space. A few dozen warriors on each of the most densely populated worlds in human space - oi.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Khan_Robinette
07/03/02 01:42 PM
216.24.92.31
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>Counterpoint: Marik started building those refit kits because the Lyrans had just lost many of their choice industrial worlds. Now the Lyrans get to build them for Marik and...well, probably the defenders of the Sarna March, since the Capellans won't leave a rump state like the FRR did. The DC might enjoy an economic boom, too.
Counter-Counter point  about the Lyrans and DC. Although the main reason Thomas agreed to produce the refits was because of the health care offered to Joshua. I wonder what type of concession he would have had to make to the Fedcom or the DC to get refit kits from them.
I had actually forgotten about the supply problems that the other Clans were experiencing. Wolf may have been able to have exploited that and jumped ahead in Liao Space. Cappies are nasty when cornered, I have run afoul of too many of them.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Cray
07/03/02 01:46 PM
64.83.29.242
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>I wonder what type of concession he would have had to make to the Fedcom or the DC to get refit kits from them.
Concession for the Lyrans: extra money.
Concession for the Combine: None needed, just normal money. The Combine had that nearly-dead "Concord of Kapteyn" with the FWL and CC and never really opposed those 2 nations. The chance to use FWL money to recover from the 4th Succession War/War of 3039 would be attractive.
Concession to the Suns: None needed. It might not sell to the Cappies or FWL, but Hanse is pragmatic enough to let his Lyran subjects deal with the FWL.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Durango
07/03/02 05:08 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
Well, actually, I'd give the Capellans better marks for fending off the invaders than the FRR. They get positively savage when it comes to home defense and Kittery is an example of how nasty they can be with even generous invaders. Sure, sure, Romano's a nasty leader and you might think the Clans would appear to be the better option for the Cappies, but I don't think the Cappies are trained to think that way. They're fanatically loyal people.
It's all very well to be fanatically loyal...but even those loyal fanatics had outdated 'Mechs. The difference would have been how fast they'd have gone through them.
Meaning, fanatics would have fought braver, and died faster.
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PeterSmith
07/03/02 05:41 PM
4.17.223.29
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"Cappies are too danged fanatical when cornered"
If memory serves, the military was still suffering from "Hopeless Warrior Syndrome" at this time. Yeah, it would not have made things better for the Clan garrisons.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/03/02 06:18 PM
63.173.170.139
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As a spin off universe that my group did back in 1990-92 w had the Clans invading through House Laio and Marik.
It was a lot of fun and allowed all of us to explore different ideas and tactics and make some changes we felt were needed etc...
Another spin a friend had back around 1993 was this what if the Clans came back to the IS over by the Outworlds Alliance and corasponding FC and Kurtia sectors of space?
He had this idea too on the truce issue...Falcons and Jaguars keep driving down to the Truce line and take what they can before they are stopped. He went into a lot detail on this and while it was interesting he never really expaned on it apart from two emails.
One this is for sure the WoB would not have a bolt hole to run to after ComStar splits during Focht's little coup.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
07/03/02 06:34 PM
63.12.145.215
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"Taurians. Heh. I think fighting a guerilla war with the Capellans would be more pleasant. Then again, the Clans might not go through the Concordat."
Actually woe to the clan silly enough to jump into Hades Cluster  . Entire Navvies have died trying to get a foothold on that place. If you read through the periphery stuff and I think the star league sourcebook you will see how much a larger star league armada lost getting there. I'd figure that the Hades Cluster would be another Wolcott for the clans or is it Luthein?
Greyslayer
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Khan_Robinette
07/04/02 08:11 AM
216.24.92.31
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I take it money may have been a deciding factor, but the rulers of the IS had been fighting for around 250 odd years to see which of them would become the new First Lord.
Old Hanse may have allowed the FWL to take a good beating while shoring up his own defenses. Money is a good incentive, but by allowing the FWL and CC be decimated it increased his chances of becoming the top dog in the IS.
Hanse was a warrior first and a Prince second. He may have seen this as an opportunity to get 2 of his 3 foes out of the way and pave the way for his progeny to sit on the throne of the Star League. And as a warrior he may have been confident that his realm could defeat the Clans.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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MacLeod
07/05/02 01:53 AM
65.95.252.83
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Very true. I'm just happy that Romano would get the axe!!!    
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Cray
07/08/02 03:55 PM
12.91.126.65
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>It's all very well to be fanatically loyal...but even those loyal fanatics had outdated 'Mechs
No, they did not all have mechs, and no, you don't need mechs to kill clanners.
Man, a few dozen Clan warriors on one planet to watch billions of rabidly loyal Capellans. Capellans would probably be able to teach Palestinians quite a bit about suicide bombings, and the Clanners can't be in their mechs and battle armor all the time. They probably wouldn't even be ready for the bread truck heading to their cafeteria with the ton of Inferno gel or the cute little kid that walks into their favorite bar with a suicide bomb in his school backpack.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Durango
07/10/02 02:16 PM
65.212.106.131
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True, you don't need 'Mechs to kill clanners.
But you don't need 'Mechs to kill IS, either. I'm pretty sure that after a few Turtle Bays (or was it Edo? I'm so vague on the Clan invasion) in Cappie space, even the crazy ones would have settled down. (Or, be wiped out by attrition.)
And by the way, Palestinians aren't the first to use satchel charges...take a look at what happened in Viet Nam.
They just get more attention for homicide bombers.
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PeterSmith
07/10/02 06:02 PM
4.17.223.29
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"I'm pretty sure that after a few Turtle Bays (or was it Edo? I'm so vague on the Clan invasion) in Cappie space, even the crazy ones would have settled down."
Edo was the city, Turtle Bay was the planet. However, something else to keep in mind...
It was the Smoked Jaguars who went with the orbital bombardment. If you flip the Invasion Corridors downward, so they're still (from left to right on the map) Jade Falcon, Wolf, Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar, the Wolves and the Ghost Bears would handle the lion's share of Capellan worlds. The Smoked Jaguars would have the Davion part of the Federated Commonwealth, the Capellan worlds around Victoria, and pretty much all of the St. Ives Commonality.
If you rotate their corridors around Terra, reversing their left-to-right position, the Wolves would have most of the Capellan planets to contend with, with the Jade Falcons and the Ghost Bears having the border worlds (and CJF dealing with St. Ives).
Now of the four Clans in the original invasion, it was the Smoked Jaguars who used orbital bombardment. They were the most unstable. The Wolves and the Ghost Bears probably wouldn't have taken such an extreme measure, and I don't think the Jade Falcons would have either. If anything, it would be a FedCom or a Marik world that would have been on the receiving end of a Smoked Jaguar hissy-fit.
However, one thing is clear. Should the Clans be stopped as far from Terra as they were in the canon universe, the only Capellan worlds that would remain in control of the Liao family would be the ones above the border of St. Ives closest to Terra (Eom, Propus, Masterson, Cordigar, Aldertaine, Geifer, Bithinia, Ingersoll, Bandora, Capella, No Return, Randar, Relevow, Capricorn III, Necromo, New Sagan, Minnacora, and Ares). It looks like the Capellans might return to their previous system of rule.
[information based on 3052 Inner Sphere map]
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Durango
07/11/02 05:37 PM
65.212.106.131
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Well, you have a valid point. But you are proceding from the assumption that nothing else would change.
I wouldn't put it past most of the crusader clans to use that sort of Scorched Earth policy.
In retrospect, Cappie Fantaticism might just be the reason why the corrider fiction planners decided to drive down through FRR. It's a question for the novel writers.
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Cray
07/11/02 05:49 PM
65.33.103.24
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>I'm pretty sure that after a few Turtle Bays (or was it Edo? I'm so vague on the Clan invasion) in Cappie space, even the crazy ones would have settled down
The Confederation has a population in excess of a trillion. Just how genocidal are the Clans?
No, I don't think "a few Turtle Bays" would do the job, I think it would be the end of the Clans. When you break out weapons of mass destruction, the side that's outnumbered thousands-to-one loses - it's actually possible for there to be a winner with that disparity of numbers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
07/11/02 09:11 PM
24.44.238.62
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Thousands to one?
Thousands to one?
...
...
...
Millions to one, I think you meant. (And as you've said before, even for just the FRR...)
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
07/12/02 02:43 AM
24.165.242.27
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The Clan population is ~1.1 billion. The Combine population is "trillions". Therefore, the Clans are outnumbered "thousands to one."
In terms of warriors vs IS population, the disparity approaches "millions to one," a figure relevant for garrison considerations but not warfare involving weapons of mass destruction (where the ability to soak megadeaths is more important).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Durango
07/13/02 02:46 PM
24.164.47.91
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"soak megadeaths"
I like the way you put that. Do you do other games besides Battletech? Because there are a few others out there that use the expression "soak" when dealing with damage.
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