Karagin
07/27/02 04:38 PM
63.173.170.152
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On one side you have a battleship let's say a McKenna.
And the other sidea has 3 destroyers and two crusiers.
Assuming average skills across the board, who wins?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Spartan
07/27/02 06:30 PM
172.157.111.5
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I need to put more thought into this but my immediate response would be to say the destroyers and cruisers. Cruisers, note I used plural, should be able to match a Battleship in firepower, be out classed in armor but outmatch it in speed. The destroyers together should be equal in terms of combat effectiveness as a cruiser. And 3 cruisers can outmatch a battleship because they will have equivalent if not more firepower but can outmavuever and surround the battleship.
To be more certain I'd need to know what class of cruisers. Light cruisers might not be able to make it, standard cruisers would be able to most likely IMVHO and heavy or battlecruisers should do so easily.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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NathanKell
07/27/02 07:12 PM
24.44.238.62
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Roughly equal BV?
Or, said better, can I pick the cruisers? (Mjolnir BCs, for sure  ). Or, heck, Avalons. One dead battleship (there aren't any *good* battleships.)
Or--mwahaha--use Conquerors. Or 3 Yorks for the DDs.
Unless you pick Aggies, though. Or Sovvies, or another one of those POS cruisers.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
07/27/02 08:25 PM
63.173.170.31
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No, BV has way too many loop holes thus it doesn't give an equal showing across the board so it's out.
Standard destroyers and crusisers.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/27/02 10:09 PM
12.91.151.64
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Depends on the cruisers. Aegis Heavy Cruisers and Black Lion Battle Cruisers (esp. the average armored Black Lions) carry nearly as much firepower as the McKenna. Ooo, wait. The Kirishima has a couple of 70pt weapon bays (mostly wimpy stuff), but it has okay armor.
Most book destroyers have appallingly thin armor. The only two that can take 1 hit from a McKenna's broadside HNPPC bays is the York destroyer/carrier and (generously) the Whirlwind. In the "generous" entry, the Inner Sphere Impavido and Suffren destroyers can also take one hit...barely. The Impavido has some credibly sized weapons bays and is quite fast (5/8). The cited Clan destroyers are 4/6, while the Suffren is 3/5.
For the most part, it looks like what the McKenna hits will die. The McKenna is not thickly armored compared to a player designed warship and its armor threshold may get it in trouble against even destroyers, but it will take 3-5 hits from a cruisers' biggest weapon bays to strip the armor off a McKenna in one location. The Aegis and Black Lion both can only take 2-3 hits in one location.
Maneuvability. Well, the McKenna is 3/5. The Clan destroyers are 4/6, the Impavido is 5/8, the Kirishima is 5/8, the Aegis is 2/3, and the Black Lion is 3/5. Maneuverability doesn't SEEM to mean much in warship battles except determining chance to escape or, if the faster ship has longer range (not really the case vs. the McKenna's HNPPC-laden broad sides) to keep open the range. So fast destroyers might live to fight another day.
Other aspects. The McKenna hauls 50 fighters and 6 dropships. In the cruisers, the Kirishima carries 3 dropships and 12 fighters, the Black Lions carry 4 dropships and 20 fighters, and the Aegis carries 4 dropships and 20 fighters. (Note the Star League/Clan warships are equipped with stars of fighters, Clan-fashion. Star League era stats may differ.) Of the destroyers, the York hauls 50 fighters and 2 dropships, the Whirlwind has 10 fighters, the Suffren has 8 fighters and 4 dropships, and the Impavido hauls 2 dropships and 18 fighters.
So.
If you want to defeat the McKenna:
The wise task force facing the McKenna would be stuffed with fighter carrier dropships and fast (4/6+) warships to stay the heck away from the McKenna's guns and fighters. The warships would launch their fighters, then attempt to flee the McKenna's fighters. Hundreds of dropship- and warship-based fighters dive on the McKenna and destroy it in (ideally) one pass/turn, before the McKenna's own so-so (in comparison) fighter strength kills too many of them.
Lacking such massive fighter support for either side...
The dropships are pretty much a non-issue if they're not fighter carriers, and the warship-born fighters...well, for the McKenna's sake, they'll hopefully cancel each other out because the McKenna LACKS anti-fighter weaponry outside of capital missiles and its own fighters.
This turns the fight into a gun battle, where the McKenna's huge number of potent, long range weapon bays should let it destroy all of its warship opponents in 1-3 turns, depending on its gunnery.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
07/27/02 10:14 PM
63.173.170.190
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To add some clarity to this...the use of the McKenna was purely for an example nothing more...the question is set up so as to talk about a number of smaller ships against one single large ship and the possible out comes of the said engagment.
Any BB can used in the example as can any destroyer or crusiser, that part really doesn't matter. What matter is the out come of the engagment. That is what I am after, ideas on who do think would win the battle.
Does this help?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/27/02 10:22 PM
12.91.151.64
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Oops, forgot about TR:3067.
So, more cruisers, more destroyers to chose from.
Destroyers:
The 4/6 Tatsumaki has okay armor for a destroyer, 18 fighters, 2 dropships, and some so-so weapons bays. There is also only 1 surviving Tatsumaki, with no more to be built.
Cruisers:
Avalon: THICK armor, thicker than the McKenna's. 12 fighters, 6 dropships, rather shy on capital weaponry. 4/6.
Agamemnon: thin armor, like a destroyer. 18 fighters, 4 dropships, some good weapons bays, not many. 4/6.
Feng Huang: Good armor, on par with the McKenna. 26 fighters, 6 dropships, a few good weapons bays. 4/6.
Mjolnir: Damn, son. Armor approaches twice as thick as the McKenna's, nearly 3 times on the aft arc. Armor threshold is above what the McKenna's NAC/40 weapon bays can get through. 36 fighters, 4 dropships. Quite a few good weapons bays, but only 2/3 the firepower of the Aegis, Black Lion, or McKenna. 4/6 movement.
If the McKenna faces off against a pair of Mjolnirs, it might have a problem.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
07/27/02 10:48 PM
24.44.238.62
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"If the McKenna faces off against a pair of Mjolnirs, it might have a problem. "
But it won't have one for long... 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
07/28/02 03:40 AM
4.35.174.250
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In one battle we ran, the Nightlord Class Battleship Ursa Major engaged and destroyed three Lola III class destroyers while sustaining only minimal damage itself. I would say that in such battles, the larger ship generally has the advantage.
This has to do with the fact that it keeps all of its eggs in one basket, a thickly armored basket. While a Battleship can destroy a Destroyer and even most Cruisers with a single volley, cutting down the power of a force, a Battleship can generally stand a broadside from one or two destroyers.
This doesn't hold up in all cases: an Avalon is a far better design than a McKenna, for example. Even one Avalon would stand a chance in that battle, while two are probably overkill.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
07/28/02 03:49 AM
4.35.174.250
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It should be noted that the Mjolnir is not a Cruiser, it's a BATTLECruiser (which is neither a Cruiser nor a Battleship, but a class all its own.) It should also be noted that it would be impossible to commit TWO of them to a single battle, as only ONE is known to exist.
It should also be noted that designs tend to fall into eras.
The first era is the Aerotech/Star League era, which contains the oldest -- and worst of the Warships designs. These designs are internally comparable, but don't match up against newer designs, such as --
-- The Nightlord (Battleship) and York (Carrier/Destroyer), brand-spanking-new Clan Warships such as these form the second era. As with the first era, they are internally comparable, but should be compared neither against the older designs nor --
-- against such new Inner Sphere designs as the Mjolnir (BattleCruiser) or the Thera (Carrier/Cruiser) which represent the peak of Warship designs. This era is NOT internally comparable. An Agamemnon is an astonishingly bad design, for example, while a Thera can beat a Feng Huang quite soundly even WITHOUT its fighters. Even so, it's best cannot be fairly compared against either of the earlier eras, nor can its worst (though for different reasons.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
07/28/02 06:17 PM
132.234.251.211
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Uh, Karagin...that's one versus five. Even if the McKenna can bring down two ships per turn (this is assuming the McKenna's opponent is dfumb enough to enter its Broadside Arcs, which I sure as hell wouldn't do) it is still going to be picked apart eventually.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
07/28/02 06:30 PM
65.129.166.65
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I understand that...what I am looking for is what folks thing the out come will be in the end...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/28/02 07:09 PM
12.91.120.3
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Actually, Nightward, depending on the ships, the McKenna could very well take down all 5 in one turn.
If you look at the analyses later in the thread, you'll see that the McKenna is only threatened by a handful of book ships, like the Black Lion, Avatar, and Mjolnir. Most destroyers are just target practice for a McKenna (thin armor, negligible weapons) and a lot of Clan/SLDF cruisers are similarly easy pickings.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
07/29/02 12:45 AM
132.234.251.211
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Perhaps so, but look at the McKenna's weapon and armour distribution. Those five lighter, faster ships should easily be able to stay away from the McKenna's heavily armoured (and incredibly heavily armed) Side arcs. Eventually, numbers would prevail.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
07/29/02 03:07 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Those five lighter, faster ships should easily be able to stay away from the McKenna's heavily armoured (and incredibly heavily armed) Side arcs.<<<
Lighter? Yes. Faster? Don't assume things. The McKenna, as a Battleship, outpaces all Heavy Cruisers (the Agamemnon being the only exception, and not really notable) and can keep up (or almost keep up) with a number of Destroyers and Frigates. It also has an inherent advantage in maneuvering: it never takes more than 2 thrust points to bring one of its broadsides to bear on a target.
>>>Eventually, numbers would prevail. <<<
But is five a sufficient number? Answer: it depends on the ships.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
07/29/02 07:59 AM
64.83.29.242
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>Those five lighter, faster ships should easily be able to stay away from the McKenna's heavily armoured (and incredibly heavily armed) Side arcs. Eventually, numbers would prevail
Unless those numbers were made of modern Spheroid designs, the other warships wouldn't last to "eventually." The McKenna's nose and forward side batteries aren't like its broadsides, but even the *laser* weapon bays are enough to strip several designs of SLDF/Clan destroyers nude of armor, and Great Ghu help any ship that gets into medium range of the McKenna's nose/frontal arc.
The McKenna's maneuverability is not trivial, either. It has more agility than enough to bring its extreme-range broadsides to bear on demand. A lot of cruisers and destroyers are only 3/5, too, and they often have no range advantage on the McKenna's frontal arcs (let alone its extreme range side and rear arcs.)
My money is still on the McKenna unless it clashes with modern Spheroid warship designs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
07/29/02 05:28 PM
132.234.251.211
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Yes, well. To reply to both you and Bob, I play Draconis Combine, so I am more familiar with DCA ships. So I was thinking Kyushuus and Kirishimas. Those ships are faster than the McKenna, particularly the Kirishima, and have fairly heavy armour with good weapons systems. The McKenna would splatter a few of them, but eventually the speed of the Combine vessels would pay off. It would really depend on who won the Initiiative. The wise McKenna player would sit his vessel still, using MP only to roll or turn. The other forces would have to move and keep away from the broadsides. For mine, the greater number of WarShips would win, but who knows? There are a lot of variables...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
07/29/02 06:06 PM
12.91.138.61
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In reply to:
The wise McKenna player would sit his vessel still, using MP only to roll or turn.
Unless they were using those sweet, sweet alternate movement rules that realistically separate movement and heading. Get up a good head of speed, then turn and roll as needed.
In reply to:
The other forces would have to move and keep away from the broadsides
If they stayed more than a few hexes from the McKenna, I don't think they could move fast enough to avoid its broadsides.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
07/29/02 06:12 PM
132.234.251.211
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Yep. And that's why we go 4/6 and 5/8 in our nifty Kyushuus and Kirishimas. If the McKenna looses initiative, I'll flee into its Nose or Aft arcs and turn my broadsides on him. Or if one side has really bad luck with their dice rolls to-hit...all the H-NPPCs and N-A/C-40s in the universe are of no use to you.
So, can we just agree to disagree now?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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NathanKell
07/29/02 07:35 PM
24.44.238.62
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Kyushu is 3/5.
And unless you're really close, it'll be tough to do such tight maneuvering as to avoid the McKenna's good arcs. And if you're that close...you're in range of his NACs.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
07/29/02 08:03 PM
12.91.138.61
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>If the McKenna looses initiative, I'll flee into its Nose or Aft arcs and turn my broadsides on him.
Let's tally things up before agreeing to disagree.
The McKenna's NAC/40s have a 24-hex range at low target numbers (see pg14 and 101 of AT2). You have to avoid them (in the front arc) and avoid the broadsides (thar be heavy naval PPCs) and rear arcs (more PPCs) of the McKenna.
With 3 MP thrust, the McKenna can pivot 180 degrees without trying hard. To stay ahead of that sweep (hope you win initiative) at JUST outside NAC/40 range at 25 hexes (which would require the least thrust), you need to be moving (approximately) 75 hexes a turn.
You will also need 210 thrust points per turn to make the 3 required turns to actually circle the McKenna (see pg8, AT2). As you just noted, Kirishimas have 8 overthrust available, rather less than the 210 required.
I will now agree to disagree.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (07/29/02 08:05 PM)
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