Greyslayer
08/13/02 12:55 AM
216.14.192.226
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This is related to my hypothetical question earlier:
In the example a fleet of ships jumped and for some reason or other failed to be able to leave the system. The colonists and military escort are forced to land on the planet and to try to live through this. Of course there will be at some stage a parting of ways of the peoples of the colony and at this stage military weapons could be employed.
The questions are:
1) What would be an acceptable level of starting technology for the colonists to start at?
2) How would the technology tree look if you were to setup a research option in a campaign?
3) Would you have linked theoretical technologies (ie technologies that initially have no direct usage but opens up research in areas that will be)?
4) what kind of balance would you have to offset the difficulties of certain technologies (ie mech related technologies such as gyro stabilisation might cost alot more than say the motive system of a tank)?
5) If you have mech research would you divide the research into weight classes? (An example would be that for years they struggled with a design truly 100 tons, the early designs failed due to the pressure on the actuators and so on)
Answer whichever questions you feel you can answer... I WANT INPUT 
Greyslayer
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Moloch
08/13/02 01:18 AM
206.216.231.96
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Your question is like the frustration I have with the research tree of the mpog Neveron. It takes forever to research something!
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
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Greyslayer
08/13/02 01:33 AM
216.14.192.226
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Then how would you perceive a improvement of the technology system? Could you say have all the already known technology (such as lasers and missiles) that may not be currently active very quick to research or just have a fairly high starting technology? Also tech leakage (such as once the technology is in use it is only a matter of time before other factions either steal or discover the tech for themselves) could come into it, this could in effect be the same as researching a already known tech .... once used against a side that either hasn't or is currently researching the said technology it automatically requires less research points to finish its research.
What do you think?
Greyslayer
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Moraelin
08/13/02 06:33 AM
194.114.62.33
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Well, before anything else, please be sure to read Brian Reynolds's article on game balance on Gamespy. That's the brain behind some great games, like Colonization or Alpha Centauri. (Which incidentally also fit the genre I'm guessing you have in mind.)
1. Any. There have been games which started in the stone age, and did just fine. (E.g., Empire Earth.) Though on the other hand, you might want to explain to the player how come all that cool technology got lost. An explanation I've seen before in a game was that although the colonists do have the schematics of, say, a gyro or a medium laser in their computers, not to mention some working samples, they have to research how to actually manufacture those out of materials available on their new planet. Basically while they do have all the military knowledge they need, they didn't bring along the manufacturing knowledge. (That works even better if the fleet was military, not colonists, to start with.)
2. Too lazy to actually conceive a whole technology tree at the moment, but I'd make it more like a graph than a tree. I.e., you can end up depending on something from a different tree.
3. Most definitely. For example it makes sense to first research how cold fusion works in the first place, before you can actually start designing a small self contained fusion engine for a mech.
Moreover, I'd also include techs which are useless for building military vehicles, but can be used to increase your production, or keep your population happier, or help train your pilots, etc.
4. An idea would be what you already wrote in another message. Basically the more people already have a certain technology, the quicker it becomes to obtain it yourself. Once more than a certain percent of the colonized surface (say, 90%) has a technology, probably everyone (including new players) should automatically get it. The surface percentage basically means the sum of the empire surfaces of those who have that tech, versus the sum of all empire surfaces.
That would help keep the game advancing forward on the whole, instead of polarizing into 1 or 2 super-powers who can wipe everyone out in a minute, and newbies who'll always be the helpless prey.
A logarithmic scale for the research points per researcher employed could also help. Basically you can only speed research that much by brute force, before the returns start to diminish compared to the expenses. (Or to put it otherwise: 9 women can't make a baby in a month;)
Maybe also multiply the research costs by one plus the number of other techs you already have that _noone_ else has. (If you have any such exclusive technologies.) Basically you're getting to a point where you're so far ahead that you can't get any more inspiration from other researchers' books, and you have to reinvent every single nut and bolt from scratch.
Basically this would mean that someone with vast funds would still stay ahead, but not rocket ahead exponentially and get to a position where he has more might than everyone else combined, and it's going to stay that way for ever.
5) Well, you could just divide it into the usual categories, like research Light class mechs, or Assault class mechs. On the other hand, you can also finely grain it into 10 ton mechs, 15 ton mechs, 20 ton mechs, and so on. It makes sense to figure how to make a 20 ton mech stand and walk, before you move on to the 25 ton class.
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild
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Cray
08/13/02 07:17 AM
64.83.29.242
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>1) What would be an acceptable level of starting technology for the colonists to start at?
When they first land or when the game starts?
>2) How would the technology tree look if you were to setup a research option in a campaign?
While research trees are fun and a useful game balance mechanism in computer games, I don't find them adequately realistic for an RPG. They allow rapid advances by shifting undefined "research points" (or the like) into any field and ignoring others. Depending on the tech the game begins with, advanced tech needed for mechs may just be a few years away (because the groundwork - myomers, gyros, etc. - has already been in development), or it may be decades away, which is an impractical time period for most PCs to play through.
What I'd recommend is have certain advances occur at dates pre-planned by you, the GM, with the option for months- or years-long delays depending on covert ops conducted against the R&D facilities. Make the PCs test pilots for the first mechs, or the test crew of the first laser-equipped tank, etc. if you want them involved in the R&D process (or the covert ops *coughshadowrunnerscough* who blow up/steal someone else's technology.)
>4) what kind of balance would you have to offset the difficulties of certain technologies (ie mech related technologies such as gyro stabilisation might cost alot more than say the motive system of a tank)?
Limit the number of advanced, difficult items that can be built.
>5) If you have mech research would you divide the research into weight classes?
Yes, absolutely. (I like the idea because I did this for a "Battletech: 2300" campaign I never got around to posting. Or did I? Anyway, the first mechs were, in fact, 100 ton mechs, but half of them would break down after 100km, and they only worked that well because the faction that developed them applied money to every engineering problem with a firehose. When other factions began developing their own mechs, they quickly settled into much lighter designs. Even the original mech developer settled into 50-55-ton mechs because the engineering problems were so much easier to solve at that tonnage.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Moraelin
08/13/02 09:44 AM
194.114.62.34
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In reply to:
While research trees are fun and a useful game balance mechanism in computer games, I don't find them adequately realistic for an RPG.
Actually, I'll have to aggree with that. I've been thinking about how I could make a better Neveron for some while now, and I just can't come up with a workable idea for the long run.
While research a la Master of Orion can work in a SP game, or even in non-persistent a MP game where everyone starts at the same point, once you make it persistent it's just flawed. Even if I were to apply some the rubber band mechanics I've described in another post, it eventually still gets to a point where you're a new player and you've just spawned next to someone with a thousand times your economy income, a hundred tech levels ahead of you, and with a thousand vehicles which each have more BV than your whole army two times over. What next?
You're never going to get in a position to compete. Forget about it.
You might get out of stone age, if said big neighbour is a nice peaceful guy and is content selling high tech weapons instead of wiping you out. If he's a bully, you won't. You'll be instantly dead as soon as you grow big enough to be attacked.
But either way, if you've joined at that point, you'll never be competition. Most you can hope for is to keep a low profile and be left alone. Basically the most you can hope is to be allowed to play a single player kind of SimCity, only on-line. Again, if your big neighbour is nice enough to allow you that. That may not be granted.
So what's the difference between that a MMORPG? Why does growth work in a MMORPG, but not here?
The difference is that in a MMORPG you can move. You can go group with people around your level, kill beasts around your level, and generally sit in the general area and context that's fit for you. Even if there are people 100 times your level around, still nothing forces you to even acknowledge that. You can have your own fun with people and NPC's around your own level. On most MMORPG's they can't block you from going and getting some XP even if they wanted to.
In a MMO- empire building game you don't have that leisure. You can't just pick your empire and walk to the other end of the continent. If you don't like your neighbours, tough ****, but you're stuck with them. If they don't like you, it can get even worse. Unlike a MMORPG here they _can_ prevent you from getting bigger. Even if they don't go through the (minimal) trouble to wipe you out, or even if they're not allowed to wipe you out, they can land-lock you.
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild
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Karagin
08/13/02 08:32 PM
63.173.170.90
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It all depends on what kind of skills the group has...
Building homes and storehouses and getting farms setup would be the main thing they need to do first.
I don't expect them to have need of super tech and since they already have mechs etc...their military needs are not that high. Granted in time the parts on the machines will wear out but that can be over come at a later date.
Setting up a city and a community would be to me the main goals. So I would guess around our level of tech up to 3025.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/13/02 08:38 PM
63.12.141.43
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'When they first land or when the game starts?'
Well I don't know the exact military tech level at the time of arrival (maybe bulky versions of current technology such as a 10 ton 4 crit PPC or something), considering until the colony is thriving there would be little reason to advance technology so I would say they pretty much maintain the same level of technology as when they landed. The main difference is that there are hypothetical areas open for them to research (such as advanced stabilising techniques which later would allow a player to research gyros) by the time they start the campaign.
'While research trees are fun and a useful game balance mechanism in computer games, I don't find them adequately realistic for an RPG.'
That is provided the person is stuck to just playing one person in a faction rather than the faction as a whole. If it was more a strategy game than a RPG what would you like to think the tech tree would look like?
'Limit the number of advanced, difficult items that can be built.'
From this I gather that you mean have a finite level of advancement? I was considering having the starting tech with Mark 1 weapons of current level 1 equipment such as a 2 ton 2 crit medium Laser and so on. Further research into lasers and constructions techniques could make the item lighter or more compact giving the player an advantage over their rivals until they too research the advancement (or reverse engineer the said item and put a small amount of research into it).
'(I like the idea because I did this for a "Battletech: 2300" campaign I never got around to posting. Or did I?'
You probably did but it was probably one of your gazillion-paged posts that people like myself might go 'I cant read all that!!!' 
' Anyway, the first mechs were, in fact, 100 ton mechs, but half of them would break down after 100km, and they only worked that well because the faction that developed them applied money to every engineering problem with a firehose.'
The original chassis were 100 tons but I don't think any of them that worked ever weighed that much (like the mackie that weighed about 83 tons I think).
Once again though Cray your answers are food for thought.... thanks.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
08/13/02 08:46 PM
63.12.141.43
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'it eventually still gets to a point where you're a new player and you've just spawned next to someone with a thousand times your economy income, a hundred tech levels ahead of you, and with a thousand vehicles which each have more BV than your whole army two times over. What next?'
Well considering this won't be a computer game that shouldn't really be an issue. If someone wants to either restart or join in they probably have little chance of winning anyway. Though to help them start off they could start on an island totally cut off from the mainland of the game (could be a missing shuttle-craft from the original landing).... I wouldn't go for people joining in more than a few turns late though it doesn't make a GM's role any easier.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
08/13/02 08:57 PM
63.12.141.43
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'please be sure to read Brian Reynolds's article on game balance on Gamespy.'
I'll be sure to put it on the reading list once my gf's mother has been and gone this coming weekend 
'An explanation I've seen before in a game was that although the colonists do have the schematics of, say, a gyro or a medium laser in their computers, not to mention some working samples, they have to research how to actually manufacture those out of materials available on their new planet. Basically while they do have all the military knowledge they need, they didn't bring along the manufacturing knowledge'
That in itself is a good idea. Not the easiest to implement but if I toned down the scientific explanation and do a more GM 'It just happens to be that way' then if would work seamlessly.
'Moreover, I'd also include techs which are useless for building military vehicles, but can be used to increase your production, or keep your population happier, or help train your pilots, etc.'
I was considering something like that. Construction techniques, materials (that later might have a military function) and facilities could easily included in a tech tree once the balance is worked out.
'A logarithmic scale for the research points per researcher employed could also help. Basically you can only speed research that much by brute force, before the returns start to diminish compared to the expenses. (Or to put it otherwise: 9 women can't make a baby in a month;)'
Another way would be to make scientists either 'specialists' or 'transients'. Specialists are those that cannot research outside their own field but also gain experience within the field very quickly providing more research than a transient ever could. Transients are almost what you call research assistants, while good at helping at any field they can't seriously produce enough points to boost your research in any particular field. They also go up slower in any field they spend time in.
'5) Well, you could just divide it into the usual categories, like research Light class mechs, or Assault class mechs. On the other hand, you can also finely grain it into 10 ton mechs, 15 ton mechs, 20 ton mechs, and so on. It makes sense to figure how to make a 20 ton mech stand and walk, before you move on to the 25 ton class.'
Though the idea appeals to me (the 5 ton increment bit) I would have to concede that chassis 5 tons either side of the one you just researched would become easier to research as well. Say for example you research a 25 ton and a 35 ton chassis then the 30 ton chassis is virtually researched for you. Or at least that is how I see it.
Thanks for the ideas,
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
08/13/02 09:05 PM
63.12.141.43
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Actually the date that I bandied around was 2227, some 200 years before combat mechs were first seen on the battlefield. The rough terrain and harsh weather may eventually force the inhabitants to create a unit that can handle these conditions better than any vehicle ... in other words a 'mech. This is where the research tree comes into effect.
'Building homes and storehouses and getting farms setup would be the main thing they need to do first.'
That would be an 'Alpha Centauri' start that I thought of ... from planetfall you must build a thriving metropolis then go to war. Another idea is that until the leadership crumbled and factionalisation occurred there was essentially peace now some ..... set time in the future everyone is gearing for conflict, researching nearly forgotten technologies and creating new theories on how to wage war.
Well at least that is the gist of it
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/13/02 10:13 PM
63.173.170.16
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I would expect them to spend more time trying to tame the new planet and it's wild life and enviorment then worrying about war...
So basic tech would be equal to say pre-SL days then with the highist being the computer and power sources they brougth with them...
Now could they use one of their dropships as a power source?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/14/02 12:39 AM
216.14.192.226
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I'd say as such that in 2227 dropships as such did not exist. I would be of the opinion that jumpships either travelled similar to warships (albiet rather inefficeintly) or shuttles were used and stored on the interior of the ship. They might be the size of small dropships built for storage more than anything else. I'm not 100% sure of what was in use at the time (this too is something I am trying to find out).
But I digress, they might be able to make do for a period of time from the power sources of their downed ships but it would only be a matter of time before lack of parts causes them to fail whether that be weeks, months or even years. Those engines would not be operational by the time several generations have passed (more or less stored in a museum maybe?).
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/14/02 12:47 AM
63.173.170.32
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Okay then they would more then likely set up solar power systems to use the sun that forced them down on to the planet as a power source....as well as using older power sources like wood, coal etc...that is if there are similar items on the planet.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/14/02 02:03 AM
216.14.192.226
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I also considered that since they are going to colonise somewhere already that most equipment like power-sources were already in the cargo of the shuttles that transported people to the surface. Solar, wind, tidal and combustive power sources are all fairly easy sources to setup though so it is not such a big deal.
Greyslayer
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Cray
08/14/02 07:22 AM
64.83.29.242
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>That is provided the person is stuck to just playing one person in a faction rather than the faction as a whole. If it was more a strategy game than a RPG what would you like to think the tech tree would look like?
Same answer as before: don't use a tree. It's too complicated and ill-suited for a table-top game. Dole out advances according to a schedule, let the players affect the schedule, but still pre-plan the advances.
>From this I gather that you mean have a finite level of advancement?
No. Just that when an item is considered "advanced" and "cutting edge," make it hard and slow to build. When it becomes "off the shelf," and surpassed by new technology, let it be built in larger quantities.
>I was considering having the starting tech with Mark 1 weapons of current level 1 equipment such as a 2 ton 2 crit medium Laser and so on. Further research into lasers and constructions techniques could make the item lighter or more compact giving the player an advantage over their rivals until they too research the advancement (or reverse engineer the said item and put a small amount of research into it).
This is where research trees get complicated and unrealistic. Developing a the basis for new technology takes years. Developing an item using the technology takes months or years. Getting the item into the field takes years, and may not be able to be retrofitted on existing vehicles. Computer games can wave this off and handle it in the background, but unless you strip out the roleplaying component of your game until all this becomes a background concern (Risk + a research tree?), it's going to make for a slow game.
>You probably did but it was probably one of your gazillion-paged posts that people like myself might go 'I cant read all that!!!'
I just posted it. It's fairly short (not like Xin Sheng; BT:2300 only took 1 post), and getting good reviews.
>like the mackie that weighed about 83 tons I think.
The Mackie of Tales of the Black Widow totaled in at 100 tons, with some over-sized equipment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/14/02 12:12 PM
63.173.170.49
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Okay with that out of the way then the issues of food and shelter come up...on the shelter part I am assuming they have pre-fab buildings or some thing similar and that takes care of that.
Now the food issues what kind of enivorment are they going to be in for the most part?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/14/02 07:37 PM
63.12.145.124
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Thick jungle. This planet is at a stage before earth's polar ice caps formed. This means that the land masses are smaller, the weather harsher and the terrain rugged. It would be trial and error before either the crops they brought with them or the hydroponics are set up or they find viable native food sources. Fortunately I don't have to treat this from the start though and can pass this information as background history.
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/14/02 09:13 PM
63.173.170.202
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Assuming then that we are talking about say a generation after land fall, I would guess they could be up to late 20th Century tech for weapons and some transport, and computer and power source wise around say 22nd century level or so...give or take.
What is the ratio of men to women and what kind of medical tech do they have?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/15/02 01:24 AM
216.14.192.226
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It could be hundreds of years in the future (it would give the population time to raise to a reasonable level). An example I would give is that of 300 years of 1.8% growth per year on a initial population of 2500 would make approximately 600k people. This would be a good starting point for deep-down factional hatred to finally split the planet's population apart. into smaller groups. Also most of the military technology even that preceeding that of the original landing would be more or less unused in my opinion most probably just stored data on a computer or disks.
As far as male to female ratios, initially I would say there would be more men than women, but after only a couple of generations I would say that the balance would slowly swing in favour of women (similar to the ratios of today).
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/15/02 01:39 AM
63.173.170.93
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How much of a swing into factions do you want to go? This could lead to some interesting things or it could bore the players to death.
One thing humans are good at and that is finding new ways to kill each other...so military tech would be something they would keep alive and well, expecially since they have to deal with a planet that has I am guess active and dangerous wildlife...
A good source of ideas is the GENERAL series by David Drake and SM Stirling, there are 5 books and two follow up novels to the whole series plus a third follow up that is done by Drake and Eric Flynt...I think you should try to get them if you haven't all ready read them. I think they will give you some really good ideas to go on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/15/02 01:52 AM
216.14.192.226
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'How much of a swing into factions do you want to go?'
Well that is part of the balance I would want to work out. Over much of the time I'd say many of the people from the same ship would group together so factions could be down those lines even hundreds of years later. The military vessel's crew could've been the early power that has recently collapsed for some reason or other (coup or natural disaster) the unaffected groups by this now start vying for power. The military faction would be a GM run one (being the most powerful this will obviously be the hardest one to take out but due to issues that caused its fall from grace the faction can't claim outlying villages/towns, this is where your faction would come in). When a powerful leadership is destroyed something has to fill the vaccuum and in this case its the lesser factions vying for power (much like what happened when the Star League military left the IS).
'expecially since they have to deal with a planet that has I am guess active and dangerous wildlife'
Really if the players want dangerous wildlife I will give them dangerous wildlife but if not it could be a mostly vegative planet. Random events could involve the actions of wildlife, such things as a large group of raptor-like beasts eat a platoon of infantry 
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/15/02 04:30 AM
63.173.170.181
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So the average tech would be roughly what we have now with some higher tech items among the military group or the scienintist/engineers?
How are the factions setup as far as organization and location on the planet? Which groups are more then likely to go after each other over the smallest thing and which would try to find another way to deal with the problems? Also where and how do the player characters fit into all of this.
Adding in some outside problems like active wildlife that is big and mean and ready to eat anything it can find can keep the players from pull some stunts that might come up like an exodus of their own with some of the less factional groups to go set up their own city or what not...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/15/02 05:15 AM
216.14.192.226
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I am thinking of playing this at the strategic level rather than a rpg level. The player controls a faction.
The actual level of technology would be predecessors to the current level 1 technology (such as 2 ton 2 crit medium lasers which can be improved with research increases and so on)...
Greyslayer
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NathanKell
08/23/02 04:18 PM
24.44.238.62
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I'm not likely to forget all those ArchSysups...hard to figure what was the best part of that series... I guess I'm tied between the religion....and Horace.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |