What mech was the most used by the....

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Karagin
09/09/02 01:56 AM
63.173.170.147

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SLDF?

I would hazard a guess that it was either the Wasp or the Wolverine.

What do you folks think?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Acolyte
09/09/02 04:41 AM
64.180.245.223

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Old or new SLDF?

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Karagin
09/09/02 01:08 PM
63.173.170.56

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Old.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
prplstickyfreak
09/09/02 11:52 PM
172.140.71.137

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I'd also toss in the Stinger and the Phoenix Hawk.
novakitty
09/10/02 10:08 PM
192.195.234.26

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Wasp, Stinger and Phoenix Hawk LAMs.




Yes, I do know that those were even rare in the old SLDF and were usually restricted to specialist use.
meow
Acolyte
09/10/02 10:36 PM
64.180.245.223

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The unseen as a whole, actually. Actually, the entire original 3025 TRO, with a few exceptions, was used by the SLDF. All of these would be upgraded, of course. Imagine a Marader with DHS and FF armor (maybe ER PPC's, too) and you have it's SLDF model, for ex. Most of the 'Mechs in the 3025 TRO are Star League models that have had advanced tech replaced by similar equipment still in manufacture. Those with ES internals and/or XL engines could not be fixed, so these would have been scraped.

Also, all the 'Mechs in the 2750 TRO, as presented.

It is important to note that units would be a lot more uniform. Easier logistics that way. Whole lances, companies or even battalions of exactly the same 'Mech, with attached specialist units.

If you want just a few, use the Unseen, upgraded with similar advanced tech.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Greyslayer
09/10/02 10:58 PM
216.14.192.226

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I do agree with some of what was said though I had no information that they actually upgraded their 3025 mechs (in fact Kerenski and DeChevelier's mechs were stock 3025 mechs from what I could tell ... of course poor writing later seemed to push the idea that star league did use mechs that were upgraded but I put that down to poor writer research).

I seem to think that the heavier mechs were more common in SLDF units. I seem to remember something about recon elements were treated as 'attachments' (or special units).

When they did field units since they had divisions in the place of regiments in today's universe they fielded them as 'same battalions' in alot of cases. In other words they had entire battalions of the same unit (Barbers Marauders doesn't sound so original now does it? ) though within a regiment they might have three or four different mech types. The light mechs would be attached to these forces in a recon role I would think.

The problem with upgrading the 3025 to 2750 technology is that they end up being better than the star league mechs (the star league in fact rarely put more than a few upgraded items in a iondividual mech according to the early stuff ... later again poor reading by writers had them producing stuff beyond the method of the star league such as the Devastator and Shootist).

Greyslayer
Acolyte
09/10/02 11:28 PM
64.180.245.223

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Minimal upgrading is what I was talking about. For example: take the Wolverine, drop the 2 extra sinks, upgrade the AC to an ultra, and add CASE to both torso's. Maybe change armor to FF. Maybe. FF armor would be dificult to replace in the later years of the second succession war and that may have been the death knell of the design. DHS would be a waste.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Greyslayer
09/10/02 11:37 PM
216.14.192.226

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That sounds more reasonable, especially considering I think the Marauder originally had some special armour on it at the time or something. Certainly no Endo-steel or XL engine 'refits' as some poorly written scenarios indicated of the more recent work from the Star League Era. Ferro-fibrous seemed to be the most common upgrade of the Star League with Endo and XL engines being very very rare (struth one of their favourite mechs was the Black Knight and we all know how little star league tech was actually on it).

Greyslayer
Acolyte
09/10/02 11:57 PM
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Agreed.

FF, DHS, ER LL and PPC, and other weapons. Anything that could be easily swapped out and replaced, I think. Endo Steel and XL Engines would be almost impossible IMnsHO. Even in redesign, it would be difficult. DHS's are about the limit of retrofit, and that's cause the SHS's weigh the same and are smaller. ie. the 'Mech had DHS's that couldn't be replaced, so they swapped them out for singles.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Karagin
09/10/02 11:59 PM
63.173.170.27

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I ran an event at UCON (it's in Ann Arbor MI every Novemeber) that had both sides using the same mechs with one side having upgraded tech and other straight 3025 tech with better pilots.

The mechs were a Marauder, Panther, Warhammer and a Shadow Hawk. All put the Shadow Hawk got minimal upgrading...I gave the Marauder DHS and Ferro...the Warhammer got the same same and the Panther got Endo and and ERPPC. The Shadow Hawk was the same one out TR3050...

The other side had the same mechs minus the high tech and with better pilots...and the battle was a fun one to watch.

I have always liked how the mechs in TR2750 had a mix of high and low tech stuff and weren't all decked out with every new item that could fit....that was some of the things I didn't like in TR3050...

Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Greyslayer
09/11/02 12:04 AM
216.14.192.226

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'I have always liked how the mechs in TR2750 had a mix of high and low tech stuff and weren't all decked out with every new item that could fit....that was some of the things I didn't like in TR3050...'

Thats what I disliked about the Fasa writers when they created scenarios or wrote about the star league and they used examples or created mechs that were not true to the information we had. One example was having a 3050 Marauder (you know XL engine, er weapons and pulse with double heat sinks and all that jazz) involved in a fight. I mean if that was the case then how could the 2750 mechs even have a slight chance of competing with those kinds of upgrades considering their minimal changes on most chassis (except mechs like the Exterminator and Flashman).

Greyslayer
Acolyte
09/11/02 12:12 AM
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Ya, I disliked the whole poliferation of advanced tech as presented by the FASA writers. It was really way too fast IMO.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Karagin
09/11/02 04:00 AM
63.173.170.132

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What my group did was look at the mechs in those scenarios etc...and go NOPE...and use a modified unit that fit better with the info from 2750 and how the mechs were done there.

Seems like a lot fo the mechs in the TR3050 suffered from the New is better thinking and while that can be true, sometimes it can be TOO MUCH of a burden then a good thing...like XL engines in mechs that DON'T get a speed increase...now that is do able if you have a good reason for it like can't fit endo do to the weapons be to big etc...but XL doesn't belong on every unit just because it's new...etc...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
09/11/02 04:04 AM
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I agree...it got to the point that unless you played every other day of the month you were lucky to get a chance to use all of the new stuff before the next new toy showed up...thing that always and still does bug me is that weapons tech works two ways and you can get around it...the better you make an offensive weapon the better the other side makes something to counter it...yet we don't see that in BT.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
09/11/02 07:43 AM
4.35.174.250

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...far outnumber any other 'Mech design, in that era or any other.

But I think I remember something about the old SHD-2H being the Star League's work-horse. Think I'd have to go hit my 3025 again...urgh.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Nightward
09/11/02 05:33 PM
132.234.251.211

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It is pretty realistic. What happened was that they dug up the Gray Death Memory Core and went away to look at it. When you have the design schematics, it is not too difficult to build something. It was really just a matter of rtefining the manufacturing techniques so as to be able to ship and equip the nifty new stuff. If they had built everything from scratch, I could see your point. But all they did was de-code the memory Core and build stuff with the schematics.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
09/11/02 05:42 PM
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'But all they did was de-code the memory Core and build stuff with the schematics.'

Which the Star League originally created and what never used to its full extent? The Star League was apparently the most advanced technology users before the arrival of the clans so how come in 3050 (just 20 years or so of research) they were releasing mechs with more tech on them than the Star League ever had after hundreds of years of being 'ahead of the field'?

Greyslayer
Acolyte
09/11/02 05:57 PM
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Instant factories, just add water? What's producing all this wonderful stuff? Last I heard 3025 tech was of the "keep the automated factories running even if we aren't sure of how they work" level. They couldn't even build new factories and they were having trouble keeping the ones they had working.

Sorting through the data, building the infrastructure on a sphere-wide basis, then producing enough new equipment to upgrade the old 'Mechs and finding enough time to produce whole new designs should have taken a lot more time. Just consider the cost. You have to train the techs to design the buildings and design all the equipment in them, ect.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Nightward
09/11/02 08:13 PM
132.234.251.211

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If you read the books, Victor talks about when they were testing Ferro-Fibrous armour. Now, the new armour was great, but the expense and difficulty in manufacturing the stuff made it impractical (at least at the time) to ship the stuff wholesale. In the intervening time, they found ways to refine their manufacturing techniques to produce it cheaper and easier, *BUILDING ON* existing knowledge. If you know what is going wrong, it is easy to correct it. As you (re)discover more about the gear in question, you can do more with it. Just to illustrate my point, think about today's computer revolution.

As for your other point, think about who they were fighting. The SLDF fought ill-equipped Periphery states. The Great Houses fought the Clans. The need for high-tech gear was much greater; this pressure catalysed the deployment of the new gear.

Also, I think you may be confusing what is*AVAILABLE* with what is *USED*. Sure, the IS now has LB Cannon, R-A/Cs and so forth, but only the very best-equipped units will actually be fielding them. After almost twenty years, about half the DCMS uses 3025-Era gear. I'd suspect the case is the same everywhere else (except the FWLM).
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
09/11/02 08:22 PM
216.14.192.226

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'think about today's computer revolution.'

And real life has not that much to do with battletech or will we see another rant on the ranges of weapons again? They set a scenario for the universe and just ignore it. The technology previously existed and was used by a priorly more advanced faction that fielded in less abundance on individual units that were found in factions just rediscovering the technology.

Ummm at what point did I post information beyond 3050? At 3050 this was the advanced technology equipment being field at the time of clan invasion. They were not being designed for use in the clan invasion so the point is NULL.

'Also, I think you may be confusing what is*AVAILABLE* with what is *USED*. Sure, the IS now has LB Cannon, R-A/Cs and so forth, but only the very best-equipped units will actually be fielding them.'

Ummm wouldn't that be like the Star League ... the best units getting the Black Knights and so on.... they were not as upgraded as the Marauders and Warhammers were in 3050.

Greyslayer
Nightward
09/11/02 08:36 PM
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"The technology previously existed and was used by a priorly more advanced faction that fielded in less abundance on individual units that were found in factions just rediscovering the technology."

Yes, and I explained why that was: there was no pressure to develop newer, better weapons. Think about another modern example: the Car. We *COULD* be driving around in electric-powered models, but we use petrol. Why? There is no pressure to change. When there is, we will.

"Ummm at what point did I post information beyond 3050? At 3050 this was the advanced technology equipment being field at the time of clan invasion. They were not being designed for use in the clan invasion so the point is NULL."

At 3050, no new technology was being fielded, only tested. Check out the 20-Year Update, in the back. It talks about the NAIS messing around with Double Heat Sinks. They were doing other research, too, but since there was no need to deploy the stuff, they did not bother.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
09/11/02 09:41 PM
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I'm talking about the same newtech on Star League mechs that you find on mechs in the 3050 TRO (and that the ratio of newtech on the 3050 mechs are in fact higher than those in the supposedly more advanced days of the 2750 TRO)

''We *COULD* be driving around in electric-powered models, but we use petrol. Why? There is no pressure to change. When there is, we will.'

That could be a very open statement. Is it because there is no pressure to change or that under the current system of patents held by Oil Companies they make it hard to switch over to that kind of technology (and thus maintain profits). This could change again in a few years when the proposed Hydrogen engines are released to the general public (hopefully). In the battletech universe to produce an advanced unit you would have to have a supply line in place of where the parts come from (usually in the same district) so essentially before the mechs are made you have to have the entire infrastructure and technologies already in place (so in the case of the 300XL used on the kuritan Atlas. It must've been planned to build a 300xl facility (or upgrade the existing one) before the Atlas was rebuilt as it would be no use in having a mech where no equipment exists locally and thus no guarantee of supply.

Greyslayer
Bob_Richter
09/12/02 03:46 PM
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>>>I'm talking about the same newtech on Star League mechs that you find on mechs in the 3050 TRO<<<

Which are, after all, the 3052 models, and in very limited distribution even then. Look at it this way: While the Star League decided to build masses of minimally upgraded machines, the Successor States believed their best interests lay in maximally upgrading their few production machines.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
KamikazeJohnson
09/12/02 05:41 PM
142.161.0.92

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>>but XL doesn't belong on every unit just because it's new...etc...<<

How does that saying go...

"There are two types of fools in this world. The first says, 'This is old; therefore it is good.' The other says, 'This is new; therefore it is better.'"

Can't remember where I got that, but I like it )
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Durango
09/16/02 02:02 PM
65.212.106.131

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I think I agree with the fella who said that it was Shadowhawk...though if you ask me, the Griffin is a better 'Mech.

But if not the S'hawk, I'm inclined to agree it was a lighter scout 'Mech.
Cypher41
09/17/02 08:36 AM
198.81.16.172

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To counter Bob's abundance of Light Mechs, I would go with a slew of mediums led by the Phoenix Hawk, Clint and Griffin, Shadow Hawks and Wolverines also would have been abundant.
Acolyte
10/02/02 03:34 AM
142.179.27.248

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I tend to view it as Tech just coming into the SLDF, it had just been tested and was just now being retrofitted/changed at the factory and new designs were just coming about which used it. This is one of the reasons that the 3050 TRO is one that I don't like, but that's just me.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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