Non-Lethal Weapons (honestly!)

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NathanKell
09/15/02 03:51 PM
24.44.238.62

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Now before you get all bent out of shape, this isn't a rules proposal.
In fact, it's a question--what personal-scale non-lethal weapons are there, or could there be, in BT? Specifically ones that work in a vacuum, and certainly at range. (I'm thinking about trying to capture a pirates' nest with the pirates intact, by the way). So sonic stunners are out.
Added plus if they're able to go through vac suits.

And no, "aiming for the limbs" is not a valid answer.

Thanks in advance.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
CrayModerator
09/15/02 04:24 PM
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Non-ranged: stun sticks.

Ranged: Those tasers that fire darts. If they aren't in BT, they're certainly RL and should work just fine. Disadvantage: they put holes in space suits. Not big ones, maybe self-sealing even, but definitely involve penetration of the fabric.

Other than that, I don't know of any stun weapons in BT. AFAIK, they're all fairly real world electric zappers. Are there even sonic stunners?

Ooo: rubber bullets. Less effective (or not effective) against people in bulky space suits, but should work just fine against folks in "skin" suits. Incapacitate the target with blinding pain as 600mph wads of rubber hit them.

Also: ye olde bean bag gun. A wad of lead or rubber shot in a tough bag, a multi-hundred mph "sap."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Acolyte
09/15/02 04:42 PM
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Tangler Grenades. Sticky fibers that harden quickly. Also, a simple explosive that ruptures a tank of water, in space it would instantly freeze, trapping anything nearby. Net Guns with magnetic weights. Bolas (aiming for the limbs, of course ).

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
CrayModerator
09/15/02 06:56 PM
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The water wouldn't work - nothing would be "instant" with a mass of water adequate to trap a person unless it involved a large blast furnace or nuclear bomb. Water is too insulating (low thermal conductivity) and holds too much heat (high thermal capacity), meaning the core would stay liquid while the surface layer boiled and maybe froze.

This means the water would mostly drench the ground and dribble off the victims while boiling away. Whether it froze or not depends on how sunlit the area is. The water wouldn't freeze on the dayside of the moon, for example. It would just boil off the hot surface of the ground and space suits. On the nightside or in shade, the water would freeze, but the vacuum-induced boiling and aforementioned dribbled would reduce it to a thin, foamy ice.

The net gun and bolas are EXCELLENT ideas. I was thinking entirely too fancy with the tasers and rubber bullets - those are always iffy, but bolas and nets are much more reliable.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (09/15/02 06:59 PM)
Nightmare
09/15/02 07:30 PM
194.251.240.106

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What would you need live pirates for? They`re probably worthless scumbags all. Just slaughter them, the authorities would probably execute them anyway.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
NathanKell
09/15/02 07:50 PM
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Tangler grenades, great! And you can even shoot them as alternate ammo from a rifle's integral grenade launcher.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
09/15/02 07:53 PM
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To borrow a quote describing Thaddeus Stevens, I'm "radical throughout, except [I] don't believe in hanging."[1]

Also, interrogation. Who knows where the other pirate bases may be hidden?

[1]This was, interestingly, a comment by future president Rutherford B. Hayes, on hearing Stevens in action at the formation of the Joint Committee on Reconstruction.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
09/15/02 07:59 PM
24.44.238.62

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BT does have sonic stunners and tranq guns (at least MW2 did); I meant more vacuum-friendly things, even (especially) if they aren't already in BT but would fit.
I mean, I'd love some zapper (I'm big on energy weapons, of course...) but I just can't easily think of any basis for it working in vacuum (unless...a special version of a PPC? but, again, how to get through the suit...and even then, would a PPC work to apply a stunning electrical charge?). Barring that, yes, tasers with darts for range and tangler grenades.
Best, of course, would be something using a laser as a base...I mean, they're so versatile: paint your target, blind your target, heat your target, vaporize your target...
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
Moloch
09/15/02 11:17 PM
67.225.194.47

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Threaten that if they don't surrender, your gonna use a nuke. Detonate it near the base and the EMP will fry the electronics, thereby rendering life support useless. When life support is gone in space suits, they either surrender or suffocate.

Thats not to drastic is it?
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Nightward
09/16/02 12:01 AM
132.234.251.211

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First off, I'm not the world's greatest physicist (hell, I can barely do basic math) but why wouldn't a sonic stunner work in vacuum? Does vacuum not conduct sonic waves at all? Or is it the suit? I though the sonic stunners just sort of overloaded the brain, so as long as sonic waves are conducted in a vacuum and can penetrate the suit, you are OK. If I'm wrong (and hey, I probably am) tell me gently instead of flaming me down

As for the other: ShadowRun had a nifty weapon called the Squirt Gun. It fired a small, gell-packed round of DMSO and the drug (or biological warfare agent) of your choice. This DMSO stuff altered the permiabilty of the target's armour and allowed the agent it carried to slip through. How effective such an agent may be against space suits, however (especially in "hard" vacuum, where the gell pack would just freeze or explode any way) is entirely up to you, Mr. GM man.

Net guns and tangler grenades are also good ideas. I thought about Tazers, but like the other poster, realised you would have to pierce the enmy's suit to get them to work. Explosive decompression does not a live captive make

However, if your players are A++ marksmen, you might like to think about EMP rounds, or magnetic Tazer bullets. You fire them onto the suit's surface, preferably a metal or magnetic part. Then the EMP charge or electricity comes through. In the case of the former, you fry the in-suit controls, rendering the life support useless. So they have to surrender. The second will do that as well, but has the added bonus of frying your target as well

And for the truly devious, you could immobilise them if they are relying on magnetic boots to move around. Turn the floors into giant electromagnets and go in using space maneuvering packs. I realise that is a bit James Bond, but I think it would be pretty damn funny

Finally, and depending on how big your player's cajones are, you could try a very close T0Space materialisation. As long as the gravity wells are OK, you could Jump in right next to the base and let the EM effect of JumpShip materialisation do the rest Again a bit James Bond, but still.

All of my suggestions have been a bit out there, but hey. Good luck.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
novakitty
09/16/02 01:46 AM
192.195.234.26

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"why wouldn't a sonic stunner work in vacuum?"

Sound is the interpretation of the high frequency movement of air...or something like that. The short analysis is that sound travels through any solid, liquid, gas, and maybe plasma (never heard of any tests on that one), and space has an astounding lack of the above.

You did quite accurately guess why DMSO would usually not work (I am still considering a way that it might).

All the other adice looks flashy enough for a movie, great if the group is in to that. (A little extra-dramatic effect can be a great addition to any game, but I have heard that some people dislike it, a mystery I may not solve anytime soon)
meow
Acolyte
09/16/02 02:31 AM
64.180.245.223

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I like my realism in a game. Funny thing, though, net guns and glue grenades are being developed right now.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
CrayModerator
09/16/02 07:22 AM
64.83.29.242

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As a rule of thumb, BT electronics seem fairly resistant to EMP. For example, solar flares never seem to bother BT spacecraft or spacesuits.

Further, life support doesn't need a lot of electronics, if any. Air tanks aren't much different than SCUBA gear.

And, of course, there's the issue of getting the nuke in the first place, than the shitstorm for using one.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (09/16/02 07:22 AM)
CrayModerator
09/16/02 07:29 AM
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>First off, I'm not the world's greatest physicist (hell, I can barely do basic math) but why wouldn't a sonic stunner work in vacuum? Does vacuum not conduct sonic waves at all?

Sound waves are vibrations in matter. Thump your fist on a desk: vibrations (sound) carried the 'thump' to the far end of the desk. The vibrating desk jiggled the air, making the air vibrate - therefore, you heard the thump, even without your ear to the desk.

Vacuum is the absence of matter. No matter, no way for vibrations to travel.

>This DMSO stuff altered the permiabilty of the target's armour and allowed the agent it carried to slip through.

No. DMSO (a real life chemical) helps transport drugs through skin. It doesn't make armor more or less permeable. Most Shadowrun armors are simply woven fabrics with plenty of holes for a drug to trickle through and incomplete coverage of the body. A sealed suit (like a spacesuit or hazmat suit...or even a rain coat, actually) will cause the DMSO and drug cocktail to dribble right off.

And, once again, I REALLY doubt EMP would bother space suit life support. The air tanks use mechanical valves and chemical CO2 scrubbers. There's some electronics involved in checking for excess CO2 and monitoring temperatures, but they aren't critical. Depending on the suit, some use electric motors to drive water through cooling undergarments while others use expanding air from the air tanks. And space suits operate in a radiation environment: they have to be ready for EMP-type effects.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
09/16/02 07:30 AM
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>The short analysis is that sound travels through any solid, liquid, gas, and maybe plasma (never heard of any tests on that one),

There's a field of solar physics called (something like) "solar seismology." Vibrations are watched as they travel through the sun, revealing a great deal about the interior, just like vibrations can be used to map the Earth's interior. The sun being made of plasma....
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Acolyte
09/16/02 08:54 AM
64.180.245.223

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Ya, there's the little matter of the Ares Conventions. Unless these pirates are so nasty that they've been outlawed (meaning the conventions of war don't apply) or you are so far into the periphery that no-one will report you (and you'd better have total co-opperation from your troops) the likely result of using these is being declared outlaw yourself.

But points for trying to use a nuke as a non-lethal weapon.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Greyslayer
09/16/02 10:23 AM
216.14.192.226

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Well a very cheap method would be paint. Anyone played skirmish (or paintball if you call it that) and copped a hit to the mask? Was vision that good that you were effective?

How about the use of other vision blocking ideas once in the facility you would probably have to take at some stage. I would gather you would not be restricted to using the other type of weapons once inside so the use of a smoke type dispersing agent with thermal or some other imagery enhancing gear could give you the advantage in overpowering troops combined with other non-lethal methods described.

Greyslayer
Durango
09/16/02 12:28 PM
65.212.106.131

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Hmmm. Not sure smoke would work in an airless environment.
Greyslayer
09/16/02 12:46 PM
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I only mentioned smoke within the facility he would have to fight in itself. The smoke would allow him to approach his target closer than normal to use the usually shorter range non-lethal attacks currently listed.

Greyslayer
Bob_Richter
09/16/02 02:04 PM
4.35.174.250

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Tranq Needles and Darts can both penetrate light body armour, and neither will leave much more than a slow leak. Their air will run out quick, but they should be okay until it does (or until someone patches the suit.)

That's as close to nonlethal as you'll get in a vac.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Greyslayer
09/16/02 02:28 PM
216.14.192.226

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You could modify the dart so that it leaves a resin on the contact point that could help seal the entry-point of the dart. The resin could harden on contact with air thus slowing the airflow even more. Of course seeing how at some levels of the game personal body armour has been known to help defeat mech weapons I would like to see how the rules for a APDS (armour-peircing discarding syringe) would work.

Greyslayer
Bob_Richter
09/16/02 02:38 PM
4.35.174.250

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...can personal armor TOUCH 'Mech weapons, and only because the rules are stupid.

Darts penetrate light body armor. Their effect isn't diminished because of the nature of the effect.

Same for tranq guns.

But you try piercing ballistic plate and you're SOL.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
NathanKell
09/16/02 03:09 PM
24.44.238.62

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Very...interesting...ideas.
I will say first that it's for a story, and in the far reaches of the Periphery as well.

Paint as well sounds good, and can also be alternate ammo (shotgun style, maybe) for an integral grenade launcher.

And I think I'll redesign the service {laser} rifle to have a little underslung dart launcher (as, being who they are, those wielding them would certainly want regular recourse to non-lethal means).

Thank you all for helpful--and often rather...innovative...ideas!
(But don't let that stop the brainstorm, by all means.)
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
09/16/02 03:31 PM
192.195.234.26

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Thanks for the update.
meow
Nightward
09/16/02 11:28 PM
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Hehe. Well, it was a long, boring day. I read that post and thought: Non-leathal weapons, eh? What's the point? Art, maybe? Some sort of decoratative purpose? Hmmm. How would Miles Vorkosigan do this? Think like Miles....

As another idea, not that it is a weapon, but anyway, in MW3 (the computer game) they use hologram to distract people. Perhaps a hologram of an enemy soldier, or even more divious, a hologram of a dead-end wall. Not weapons as such, but they could give you an advantage.

Another thing I read in a book was the "Tangler Field". It is force-fieldyish, but what happens is that it projects a field a few centimeters above the ground, and I think it pulses. So it keeps knocking you down. Way too far out there for BT, though

If you want any ideas for covert ops missions, just grab any of the Miles Vorkosigan series, by Lois McMasters Bujold. Miles is a sort of combination of James Bond and Julis Caesar. The books are really well-written to boot.

Finally, there is a *VERY* leathal idea I read in one of Anne MacCaffery's books ("The City Who Fought"? It's been a while). They need to defend a space station, so they place a line of monofilament wire in a zig-zag pattern throughout a corridoor. The enemy ran in, sliced themselves off at the knees, then fell face (neck?) first into the next piece of monofilament wire. Ouch.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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