Think tank

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spork
01/15/03 12:22 PM
24.208.151.50

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Just as the title says... a think tank. After joining in, and reading through the thread titled "your opinions please" I have come to the conclusion that there are many out there like myself who like the engineering portion of BT, as much, if not more than the actual game.

So, how would you change the game? What if we were to sit down and design a better BT. Add stuff, get rid of the obsurd, change certain dynamics...

As I mentioned in the other thread, I have been toying with stuff for awhile now. My main concept is to change the restrictions from heat based, to energy based. Redisgn the chassis so they are more weight dependent.

What are your thoughts?
MadWolf
01/15/03 02:46 PM
134.53.144.11

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One thing i would liket o see would be a "CAD" like program that you can use to build mechs and modify them. Sadly it would probably be way to complex, espcally because id like to se a way they could be entered into a mechCommander type battle interface. This whould be cool for campangs because even if your panther went in and was only hit in the leg, you would be responceable for all the mylomer muscle and other doo-hickys and thingamajigs that whould have to be replaced. And if you can't then your panther pilot has to deal with a broken panther. A ultomate realism thing for the diehards i guess. Id play. Id love to be the guy that has to come up with the pilots too! I dream big.
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
spork
01/15/03 04:34 PM
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I actually started designing modular mech pieces in 3DS format. The only problem, is that they wouldn't work for BT. The chassis used in BT, are the same size (criticals) no matter how many tons the machine weighs. This is one of the problems I would like to have resolved with this Advanced Tech think tank.

Pieces can be created for any size machine, and put into a library... you could have 20 different feet to choose from for each size of mech, along with torso's weapons etc... However, certain things remain a constant. A heatsink/double hink sink is going to be physically the same size in either a 100 ton mech, or a 20 ton mech. This is where the BT system fails, it never really takes into account any physical differences between the sizes. So, the small mechs end up being as bulky as the big mechs, because they can carry the same amount internally. This is a problem when you want to hook up a mech designing program, to a mech 3D creator program.
spork
01/15/03 04:58 PM
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The power plant... well, BT has the "fussion" engine. I won't get into why that won't work. Personally, I don't care how the power plant generates power, it will just be some future discovery. for now, I will just say that it is powered by the same green goo in Happy Fun Balls (sorry old SNL reference).

Anyway, BT rates the power plant, by tonnage of machin*walking speed per turn. Ok.... so that means, it has unlimited amounts of power for all the equipment put on the mech, but is limited to powering a machine's movement. Doesn't make sense to me.

My idea is this. The Happy Fun Ball power plants, are capable of generating X-amount of power points (size of power plants will vary) (P-P for short) per turn. Consequently, everything the machine does will require power usage. Generic items, like cockpit functions will have a built in rating already taken into account by the power plant, so that you don't have to caculate it each round. However, your machine will move using a formula like this:

P-P=#of hexes moved+#of facing changes+#of elevation changes+terrain modifiers*weight of mech*#of legs

thus, there is no set speed limit for the mech. if it has enough energy stored up, it could sprint a good distance. No run, no walk, just sheer movement.

Since the mech won't be moving full speed and firing all it's weapons constantly, you need batteries to store the extra power produced by the power plant. So, when building the machine, a person is going to want to allocate tonnage for larger batteries to improve combat performance (and they explode when hit!)

Of course weapons will drain power. energy more so than ballistic (ballistic would only require power for the trigger and reloading mechanisms)

I figure the Happy Fun Ball power plants will take into account the amount of heat they can generate, and will have heat disapation built in. Same with the other mech equipment, weapons etc... And like a nuclear engine, you will be able to rev-up the power plants energy out put (red-line it) past the safe built-in limits it was designed for. this would result in a dice roll, with a failing roll causing the power plant to melt down. The mech could still move if enough power is in the batteries, but once those are drained, the mech would be dead.
Vapor
01/16/03 02:59 AM
202.128.69.122

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In reply to:

Since the mech won't be moving full speed and firing all it's weapons constantly, you need batteries to store the extra power produced by the power plant. So, when building the machine, a person is going to want to allocate tonnage for larger batteries to improve combat performance (and they explode when hit!)




This is an interesting concept, but there are a couple flaws. The biggest is that if you are using batteries to power the weapons, the batteries will have to be massive. Without going into complex math and values and everything, I will give you an example.

In order to provide enough power to fire a Small Laser using 24-volt car batteries, you would need somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 batteries to provide enough power for one shot. (Most likely more than that, I'm not sure of the exact power requirements for a Small Laser ) That's just one Small Laser. Make it ER or Pulse, and you're looking at probably another 3-4 batteries. Medium Laser? 17-18 batteries. PPC? Probably around 30 batteries. That is all just for a single shot. Then the batteries will have to recharge, and unless they develop a way to "flash-charge" batteries in the future without blowing them up, that could take hours.

Capacitors might be a better idea. They are capable of storing high voltage, though not for extended periods of time, and are relatively easy to recharge once they are used. (I'm not an electrical engineer, so don't quote me on any of this. I'm trying to remember stuff I learned in school. )

In reply to:

Anyway, BT rates the power plant, by tonnage of machin*walking speed per turn. Ok.... so that means, it has unlimited amounts of power for all the equipment put on the mech, but is limited to powering a machine's movement. Doesn't make sense to me.




While I do agree that BT's current fusion engine setup does leave a number of holes, I think that the engine rating system is viable. I have a slightly different thought path about the ratings. When they rate an engine as <'Mech tonnage>*<walking speed> I don't see it so much as a bigger engine needed to move a bigger 'Mech. Rather, I see it saying that the bigger engine is for the greater number and size of weapons on the bigger 'Mech.

I do, however, have some difficulties with BT and you saying that the engine rating should reflect the 'Mech's speed. Ultimately, how fast a 'Mech can go will depend not on the output of the engine, but on the internal parts that move the legs (ie. myomer, gears, hydraulics). It doesn't matter how much power you feed into those parts, they will only move as fast as they are physically able, and heavier legs (on a 100-ton 'Mech) will move a lot slower than lighter legs (on a 25-ton 'Mech). Sure, you can put bigger and stronger parts in there, but then you are cutting down on weight you can use for weapons, armor, heatsinks, or anything else.

Therefore, I think that the speed of the 'Mech should be based on the amount of internal structure the 'Mech has. Make the internal structure amount variable rather than a fixed amount. This will allow for increases or decreases in the size of the myomer muscles, gears, and hydraulics systems used to power the 'Mechs movements, making it faster or slower. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to propose any formulae to work out 'Mech movement based on internal structure at this time. I will try to come up with something soon, though.

I like your idea for the power points, though. I just don't think it should apply to speed of the 'Mech. Since the engine isn't driving the legs of the 'Mech directly (as in a car), the engine's output won't have a direct affect on how fast the legs can move, and therefore how fast the 'Mech can move.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
spork
01/16/03 07:45 AM
68.22.90.230

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Good, we have people thinking out loud.

Batteries vs. Capacitors. Actually, the weapons would have capacitors in them anyway, to regulate the amount of power that the weapon can draw, from the batteries.

Physical size of the batteries, will have to be a function of playability. Again, each battery would be able to hold so many P-P. You must figure that battery technology will have advanced greatly in the future (just as it has in the past couple of decades). I remember just a little while ago in the 80's when simple hand-held games required "C" and "D" size batteries to run just a couple of blips on the screen. Granted, the electronics behind it is what advanced faster than the batteries, to the point where my Palm Pilot runs on 2 AAA batteries. So, I am assuming the future will have better electronics and better batteries. So, it comes down to finding and tweaking tonnage ratings/storage capacity. (that will have to come with game play).

I understand your concern with movement ability of the machine. How about instead of restricting the machine to a set # of MPs, we give the machine a Structural Integrity rating similar to that of aerotech equipment. The actuators, would probably be given a maximum rating as well (push it past the redline too, with possibility of burning out the actuator, or twisting/snaping the limb off). If we stick with the Myomer system (artificial muscle, that expands and contracts when induced by electricity), Myomer, can theroritically expand and contract as fast as an electrical field can be applied and taken away. So, the limit would have to be put on the structure (how much stress can it take), and the capacity of power running through the actuator.

BTW, I also think the whole weapon system needs to be improved. Absolute damage values for the weapons, don't reflect real world conditions. More on that later.

Looking at mech cut aways... why would you need worm gears in a mech whose movement is controled by myomer bundles.... the cut aways should look more like the anatomy of a human body.... just a thought.
Vapor
01/16/03 08:18 AM
202.128.69.122

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In reply to:

Looking at mech cut aways... why would you need worm gears in a mech whose movement is controled by myomer bundles.... the cut aways should look more like the anatomy of a human body.... just a thought.




I asked the same question on a different forum, and the answer I got made quite a bit of sense. Basically, the system used to move the limbs depends on the design of the limb itself. Legs that are "human" in design (ie. the knee bends forwards, as in an Atlas) are ideal for using myomer bundles to provide the movement due to greater thickness. However, legs that are "avian" in design (ie. the knee bends backwards, as in a Raven) are a lot skinnier and don't have a lot of room for myomer bundles, so it's easier to use gears and hydraulics to produce the movement. I'm sure that there are weight limits as to when you can use gears and when you have to use myomer, though.

In reply to:

I understand your concern with movement ability of the machine. How about instead of restricting the machine to a set # of MPs, we give the machine a Structural Integrity rating similar to that of aerotech equipment. The actuators, would probably be given a maximum rating as well (push it past the redline too, with possibility of burning out the actuator, or twisting/snaping the limb off). If we stick with the Myomer system (artificial muscle, that expands and contracts when induced by electricity), Myomer, can theroritically expand and contract as fast as an electrical field can be applied and taken away. So, the limit would have to be put on the structure (how much stress can it take), and the capacity of power running through the actuator.




Whether you base the maximum distance the 'Mech can move on engine rating or structural limitations, you will still have a maximum number of hexes that the 'Mech can move in any given turn. I think basing the maximum movement on a formula involving internal structure and the weight of the 'Mech would be fairly realistic, as the more internal structure there is, the bigger and stronger the parts that provide movement can be made.

I think the structural integrity would come into play when the 'Mech is already moving. The BMR talks about skidding (a running 'Mech that attempts to change directions makes a piloting skill roll, if it fails the 'Mech skids in the original direction of movement but on the new facing, another piloting skill check is made and if that fails, the 'Mech falls, taking the normal damage). At least I think that's how it works. I don't have the BMR with me just now, and it's been a while since I looked at the skidding rules.

That's a fairly realistic idea, but I think it can be taken a step further. A running 'Mech that attempts to change direction must make a piloting skill roll. If the roll fails, the 'Mech skids, but prior to the skid beginning, a roll must be made based on the structural integrity of the 'Mech (somehow damage must be factored in here), the 'Mech's mass, and the distance already run. If that roll fails, one of the 'Mechs legs snaps off and the 'Mech immediately falls, taking double normal damage (due to it's velocity when it hits the ground). If the 'Mech survives, the battle then continues as though the 'Mech's leg had been destroyed by enemy fire.

A similar roll must be made when physical attacks are made, especially kicks and punches. Kicking with a leg that has taken substantial damage should be a lot riskier than kicking with an undamaged leg.

On a final note, I don't think it is really practical to use a formula to calculate how far a 'Mech can move in any given turn. It would bog the game down, especially when lances or larger groups are being used, if you have to calculate how far each 'Mech can move that turn. Rather make the calculation when the 'Mech is designed, and provide the maximum movement allowed to the player. Of course, the movement decreases as the 'Mech takes certain damages (ie. leg actuators, etc).
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
MadWolf
01/17/03 02:49 AM
134.53.28.164

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Do the heat sinks need to remain a consistant? Would a HS from Earthwerks limited fit in a mech manufactured in combine space? There could be differences and the ability to shape and manuver things. Heat sinks do not need to be square, they can be conured. I think if you built alot of mechs, say all the ones up to 3050 TRO. you would find that there could be alot that was interchangesable and alot that are not. It would make it so you HAve to keep your machines with the rare parts out of the front lines and the ones like an orian that are old as dirt in the front because you have parts for those lying everywhere
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
SinOriginal
01/19/03 05:50 AM
158.222.228.163

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...and I'm taking your ideas and running into a wall.

The entire Critical system seems like it could use a rework, but I'll get to that.

Given say a 350 rated engine from Battletech, convert it to a 350pp drive. The mech's (say 50 tons) actuators have a stress rating of 1S 2S 3S or 4S the higher the stress rating the more the weight and the faster safe top speed. It would take a set number of pp to move a set number of tons one hex, say 1:3. The stress rating*tonnage/2 is the max that the actuators can handle in pp per turn. Meaning a 50 ton mech with 2S could move a maximum of 6 hexes without risking over stressing the actuators.

Weapons would need to still have heat, but the pp expended from the capacitor banks would be what generates the heat (the whole energy to energy to heat is energy dealy-dealy) so a set number of pp would create a set number of heat points ie 15:3, which also gives you the amount of pp needed to fire any weapon. sadly meaning a ppc would take 50pp to fire or a clan lb 20-x would take 30pp. Any weapon listed as 0 heat (machine guns) would use 2pp to fire.
Criticals need to be reworked, a mech can only mount so much bulk, so the S rating would also supply a function for max critical slots, say S*tonnage/2, divide the criticals between the locations in proportion with standard battletech.
The Gyro weight would depend on the engine and S rating so it would help with balance of the mech and storing a percent of the engine's power if it is unused through batteries and capacitor banks, creating a reserve if you ever need and extra punch of pp. Heat sinks would counter standard weapon heat while new resistor/capacitor equipment would create more efficient flow of energy to weapons stretching out those pp and lowering the over all heat output of each system. High heat levels would create pp cost mods instead of standard type mods, if using a coolant system a mech could drop into negative heat, and possibly find the "speed of 1337" (temperature at which electricity flows most efficiently) giving it pp cost bonuses.

well now its two thirty and i'm butt tired... i'll post more later
Vapor
02/04/03 04:34 AM
202.128.73.148

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In a slightly more realistic world, damage from energy weapons (specifically lasers) would decrease as range increases, with maximum range being dictated by the amount of damage the laser can do at point-blank range. This is due to the fact that a laser is, for all intents and purposes, a beam of coherent light. As it passed through the air, it comes into contact with countless particles of dust, water vapor, smoke, etc., each of which would absorb some of the beam's energy, therefore decreasing the amount of damage it is capable of doing to the target.

Of course, smoke and fog would greatly decrease the damage a laser can do due to the increased amount of particles and water vapor in the air.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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