Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5863
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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What if Kurtia had not...
#46719 - 01/17/03 03:36 PM (68.21.149.51)
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Gone after the Dragoons during the 4th War and actually used his forces to counter or react to the attacks by the Suns and Commonwealth? Would this have changed the outcome of this part of the 4th War?
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
Private
Reged: 09/09/02
Posts: 88
Loc: Sweet Home Alabama!
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46743 - 01/17/03 09:22 PM (172.156.107.188)
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Interesting idea. However, it hinges on something serious: Jaime Wolf and House Kurita.
Right before the 4th Succession War, Jaime Wolf took Takashi Kurita seriously to task for what Wolf felt was Takashi's actions (through subordinates) against both the Dragoons and Minobu Tetsuhara. At the prenupital reception. In front of a hell of a lot of onlookers. (Wolf also humiliated ComStar ROM by smuggling in Tetsuhara's daisho, but that's another tale)
I'm not sure Takashi could have reacted any other way than the way he did when Hanse launched his surprise attack. However, let's assume something unexpected happens; the combined effect of Wolf insulting him and the attack are too much for Takashi's heart or brain, and he has a stroke or heart attack and dies. Theodore assumes the mantle of Coordinator.
At this point, things could get very ugly for the Suns and the Commonwealth. Theodore is not his father; he's far more flexible, and definitely smarter. Expect counterattacks, similar to what was seen in the War of 3039, to keep the Commonwealth from gaining too many worlds, but the end result would probably be the same.
However, as Theodore is running the whole show as of 3030, this could make some SERIOUSLY interesting changes in future conflicts. Theodore could proceed full-speed with his reforms of the DCMS, without interference from Takashi, possibly even stopping the worst of the Ronin Wars if he allowed the Rasalhague worlds to secede. More likely, though, Theodore could probably seek a diplomatic compromise that might keep the Rasalhagian systems in the Combine -- something similar to the Azami, maybe.
When 3039 rolls around, Theodore knocks Hanse's assault flat on its ass with a DCMS that is further along the line to being a superior force than it was in canon. He might even seize Commonwealth worlds, forcing Hanse to let up and shift units to the Lyran side to fend off the Kurita forces.
--Toasty
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"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5863
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46786 - 01/18/03 07:42 AM (68.21.149.119)
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Excellent points...and very interesting ideas you have given.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Moloch
Sergeant
Reged: 04/16/02
Posts: 265
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46809 - 01/18/03 11:38 AM (67.224.53.132)
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Yes, very good points. I bet the clans would of had a much tougher fight come 3050 when trying to conquer House Kurita and have a much smaller invasion corridor.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5863
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46811 - 01/18/03 11:41 AM (68.21.149.60)
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How so? I would think they would still hit along the same route with the same break down as far as who attacked where...could you elaporate a little more on this please...thanks!
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46823 - 01/18/03 01:15 PM (67.86.63.119)
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ISTR a number of the DCMS defeats were due to fighting in the "old school" traditions which so totally favored the Clans.
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-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46855 - 01/18/03 05:44 PM (210.50.57.93)
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Scott (Greyslayer) has long been of the school of thought that the reason Hanse Davion was killed off during the Clan Invasion was becuase between him, Theodore Kurita, Jaime Wolf, Morgan Kell, and Anastasius Focht, the Inner Sphere frces would have pounded the Clans but good. I'm not sure I agree, but things would certainloy have been more interesting...
Anyway, I'm getting a bit far afield.
If Theodore had been in control at the time the Clans invaded, I am not sure how much could have been done in that area. The Smoke Jaguars mainly faced the Pesht Distrcit Regulars, who are staffed almost entirely by nobles more concerned with honour etc than battlefield ability. Traditionally, this was not a problem because nobody ever made it far enough into the Combine for the Pesht units to have to fight, and the P[esht regulars were just showboat regiments used as reserves on "honor=able" attacks into foreign territiories (IIRC, it was a Pesht unit which supported the Genyosha in the Warrior series, but they refused to integrate with the Black Ocean...fools). IN any case, Theodore likely would not have been able to alter their tactics enough for things to have made a difference come the Clan invasion. So in my usual rambling, incoherent style, what I'm trying to say is that the Jags would have pounded the Pesht Regulars 
The other units, now...that could be interesting. The Ghost Regiments, Legions of Vega, and Ryuken all enjoyed success against the Clans because they paid attention during the fights and altered their tactics as necessary. If Theodore could have expanded the Ruken back to ten (or whatever it was) Regiments, added to the Legions of Vega, and created more Ghost regiments (which I'm sure he'd have tried to do) and bought the Genyosha up to full strength quicker instead of Takashi having scattered the lot to the four winds, he would have had a floating reserve unit that he could have commited to slow and then turn back the Jags.
The Ghost Bears would have faced Alshain Regulars who would also have been equipped and taught better. However, given the Bear's early tactics (bomb them till they burn, then shoot them from orbit) and slow-and-steady approach would probably have seen them eventually overwhelm the Combine's troops.
Of course, all this hangs on the presumption that Theodore kept things quiet in the Combine from when he took over to the time of the Clan Invasion. If he took advantage of things to try to cut off the area at which the FedCom linked, or acted against Hanse, who knows what could have happened?
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46856 - 01/18/03 05:46 PM (210.50.57.93)
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And imagine what Theodore could have done to Hanse during the War of '39 if he had adequate reserve troops and access to the better units. We could well have seen the Combine once more poised over New Avalon...
Actually, come to think of it, I believe Takashi did have a stroke after the FedCom wedding event. Afterward, he walked with a cane etc.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46863 - 01/18/03 07:37 PM (67.86.232.111)
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I also STR that Theodore simply did not have the troop strength, no matter how free a hand he had. 39 failed on a bluff.
Unless you're thinking he could do one heck of a recruiting drive before the war.
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-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
#46888 - 01/19/03 02:50 AM (210.50.63.89)
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Well, the main problem in '39 was that Takashi wouldn't give Theodore enough troops to hold the FedCom off. Theodore did what he could via sleight-of-hand, and with the re-emergence of the old Star League designs, it was just enough to convince Hanse that he was biting off more than he could chew.
If Theodore had been able to get his hands on units like the Second Sword of Light, or heaven help the Davions, deployed the Genyosha or Otomo to the field, it would have taken a very concerted effort to shift the might of the Combine.
If Hanse had attacked with everything he had, and come in with Lyran, Gray Death, Eridani, Wolf Dragoon, Northwind Highlander, and Banzai's troops, things would have gotten very messy indeed.
And since the Capellan Confederation was reeling like a drunkard and the Free Worlds League of the time could not plan and execue a viable millitary plan if they cloned Aleksandr Kerensky, Aaron DeChevalier, and Justin Xiang Allard, there would be little that could be done to stop them.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5863
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
[Re: Karagin]
#121851 - 12/03/05 11:45 PM (24.243.178.223)
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Back to the top for more...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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WreckingCrew
Newbie
Reged: 07/23/03
Posts: 5
Loc: Virginia
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
[Re: Karagin]
#123363 - 01/03/06 05:14 PM (158.59.158.188)
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Absolutely! With Davion fully embroiled in driving deeper into the Capellan Confederation there flank would have been vulnerable. Terra could have been cut off from Steiner and the war changes especially with Theodore holding off the Lyrans. Good luck convincing Stiener-Davion lovers of this scenario howeveer.
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Tentakel
Newbie
Reged: 08/27/08
Posts: 5
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
[Re: WreckingCrew]
#151805 - 09/02/08 06:30 PM (67.10.108.37)
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it's highly doubtful that the Federated Commonwealth would have/could have moved troops away from the Liao and Marik borders to assist in the Combine war. Compare the sourcebooks 20 Year Update (showing troop deployment before the clan invasion) and Objective Raids (after the clan invasion) and you'll see that not the FedCom troops stationed near Liao/Marik were almost entirely the same - not even the clan invasion could bring them to move those border units away to assist at the front, so I doubt a war against Kurita could have either.
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Prince_of_Darkness
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 440
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
[Re: Tentakel]
#151806 - 09/02/08 07:10 PM (205.202.120.139)
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Great way to resurrect dead posts.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5863
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
[Re: Prince_of_Darkness]
#152124 - 10/24/08 11:44 AM (72.178.75.99)
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Nothing wrong with that. I like it when new folks or even older posters find something to add the discussions. Hell I bring enough of them back from the dead as it is...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Dester
Sergeant
Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 110
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Re: What if Kurtia had not...
[Re: Karagin]
#152323 - 11/07/08 09:34 AM (216.57.96.1)
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Well since the post is already dug up from the grave.... 
It is in my opinion that Kurita would have been WORSE off if they did not attack the dragoons. Yeah, yeah, I know... follow my train of thought.
1) there would have been 5 elite regiments ready for hire and if you kept with the dragoons pattern their next employer would have been the Federated Suns and with the way kurita treated them I dont' think they would put in the clause of not operating aginst their former employer.
2) even with 5 extra regiments the drive into kurita space isn't near as bad as it was because Kuritan units aren't throwing themselves away at the dragoons on misery. Instead they stablalize the boarder. True the dragoons help crush Kuritan units but over all the its not near as bad as it was in cannon.
3) (and this is key) because things aren't as bad, Theodore never comes back into favor with his father to rally and lead a counter attack. The dragoons slice ever deeper and the waves that were called off due to theo's counter continues. But the destruction is a slow grind instead of a quick slice. By the time Takashi realizes he needs Theo.. its to late to help.
4) Theo never comes into promidence, never builds the ghost regements, never brokers a deal with comstar to get mechs.
5) FRR gets born much earlier and takes valuable and scares manufacturing and mech regements with it.
6) war of 3039 goes horribly horribly wrong for Kurita as comstar does not view them worth saving so no new mechs, no ghost regements no Theo as commander of the armies. Alternantly some time before 3039, Theo starts a civil war with his father for rule of the realm, or whats left of it.
7) The draconis Combine becomes nothing more then a minor power and is quickly swept away by the clans when they show up in 3050.
The end
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