Diablo
02/22/03 10:09 AM
66.185.84.69
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I've lost faith in the clan elemtals. I was recently finishing off the Btech series when one book (i cant remember which), in which, Kai defeated and elemental in single combat. Phelen wolf defeated them in his trials hand to hand as well. my orgional conception of an elemental was that they were 500lb pure muscle, bred and trained for combat where strength is important. so why cant these guys take on a few mechwarriors? in every other book, elementals have creamed all who opposed them and suddenlt their pitiful excuses for soldiers. can someone explain?
and I am aware of the concept that the bigger they are the harder they fall type stuff and I am a firm beliver that a 3 year old child can kill a 10th dan black belt.
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realworldviews
02/22/03 10:36 AM
24.98.62.128
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You have to remember that these are isolated cases.
In general I believe elementals in unaugmented hand to hand combat will defeat almost any non-elemental opponent.
But there will always be exceptions.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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KamikazeJohnson
02/22/03 01:48 PM
142.161.128.92
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True, but it seems to me that the elemental has a better chance of losing hand-to-hand against a regular schmo by tripping over his own feet and breaking his neck in the fall than by actually being overmatched. Think a Bruce Lee movie where Bruce is 3-4 times bigger, just as fast, and just as skilled. But hey, it's fiction...the good guy wins because that's the rule. So there!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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The_Nice_Guy
02/22/03 02:30 PM
165.21.83.230
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Writer fiat trumps everything else.
The Nice Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Cadet
02/22/03 04:26 PM
206.102.32.89
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Logic, physics, reality...compared to writer fiat, none stands a chance.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:22 PM
65.129.166.76
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It get's better...Nystul has a single Elemental bring down an Atlas is his children's book...I forget the title, but it has the Horses attacking the Bears and uberwarriors rein supreme in it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Spartan
02/22/03 11:56 PM
172.129.6.169
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An Atlas brought down by an elemental? The mech whose original fluff says it could take on a entire *battalion* of Stingers and leave only one moving before withdrawing for repair? That mech, brought down by a Toady?!? An insect?!?
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Vapor
02/23/03 03:16 AM
202.128.69.122
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Generally, in the Elemental vs. anyone-else hand-to-hand combats, what the Elemental's opponent lacked in brute strength, they made up for in quickness and intelligence. Granted, all it would take is one mistake and the Elemental would be guaranteed victory, but I think speed, agility, and mental acuity would be fairly even against pure brute strength. Just my opinion, though.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Diablo
02/23/03 09:28 AM
66.185.84.69
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I allways thought that was becase the pilot was stupid...
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Karagin
02/23/03 03:14 PM
65.133.242.78
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Yeppers...and the thing is we are suppose to believe it as if it's an everyday occurance...  
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:10 PM
4.35.174.250
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quickness, intelligence, surprise and/or zero-G training.
Kai's first elemental opponent underestimated him. Taman Malthus did not. Notice the difference between the two fights.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Diablo
02/24/03 04:29 PM
66.203.181.95
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the second one was interupted and then Kai tripped on his own gunbelt and fell. he still could have won if those didnt happen... maybe... I think... well you know the writer would have thought something up to let Kai win...
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KamikazeJohnson
02/24/03 10:57 PM
142.161.128.92
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I'm not sure if I'm thinking of the same Atlas-vs-Elemental, but IIRC, the elemental wins almost entirely due to the advantage of surprise...the 'Mechwarrior panics, flails around madly, and falls down, then gets butchered in the cockpit before he can recover. Couldn't really happen with the game's combat rules, but in a more flexible "realism" environment (where you can do aimed headshots from 2 feet away), it's no more unreasonable than any other fictional heroics.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
02/24/03 10:58 PM
142.161.128.92
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Doesn't Victor chop up an Elemental as well, in one of the "Twilight of the Clans" books? Or was that someone else...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/24/03 11:40 PM
68.21.149.232
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BS cough BS...oh I forgot we can't complain about Saint Nystul and his excllent cough BS cough writing....
I don't care how you write it...a single elemental isn't going to bring down an Atlas. Something things are way over done and the UberHeros don't belong in the BT universe...they have their own it's call Marvel and DC comic books.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:49 PM
4.35.174.250
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in this case, Stackpole had to think up an excuse for Kai to survive, such as tripping on his gunbelt and falling off a cliff. 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Diablo
02/25/03 04:53 PM
66.203.180.205
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survivng to save a chick and use both an elemental suit and a Dashi as well as shoot a steel girder from a gauss rife to open up a door is an allright excuse in my books.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:29 PM
4.35.174.250
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I liked that, precisely because it was one of the human moments that, for me, defines Kai Allard-Liao.
Name one other action hero who tripped over his own gunbelt and fell off a cliff during a fistfight...!
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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realworldviews
02/26/03 12:48 AM
24.98.62.128
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I liked the steel girder being shot out of the Gauss rifle. ANd I also like the fact that it all but destroyed the gauss in the process.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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TwoYearLurker
02/26/03 07:25 PM
4.17.223.29
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I think that's Test of Vengence. If it is, wasn't that spaceport being guarded by the entire Zeta Galaxy? I mean, that lance of BattleMechs faced off against all those Elementals. I'm pretty sure that Atlas was beat-up a bit before hand.
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Karagin
02/27/03 08:36 AM
65.129.164.151
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Beat up yes, dropped by one UBERHERO no.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TwoYearLurker
02/27/03 06:34 PM
4.17.223.29
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Well, somebody had to get in that last shot.
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Karagin
02/27/03 06:37 PM
65.129.167.150
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I could see a single element droping a Locust or stinger but NOT an Atlas...sorry but for me that is way over the line of remotely being believe even for the BT universe.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TwoYearLurker
02/27/03 06:59 PM
4.17.223.29
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The unit the Atlas was in (a lance, IIRC) was trying to secure the spaceport. That spaceport was protected by a Galaxy of Elemental suits. Assuming a pure Elemental composition, four Trinaries to the Cluster, and four Clusters to the Galaxy, that's 1200 Elemental suits. Split that between the lance, you're talking about 300 suits against that one Atlas. Pretty one-sided, don'tcha think?
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Nightward
02/28/03 03:55 AM
211.26.1.16
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Well, Kai was only fighting the Jade Falcons. If he'd been up against the Wolves, the Ghost Bears, or (God save him) the Hell's Horsemen, he would have been pasted.
Phelan Wolf defeated his adversary in zero-g combat so that he could negate his opponent's advantage of strength. In fact, I suspect that being an Elemental in space is a big advantage- 300-odd kg stops alot slower than 60-odd kg!
The thing is, in Clan trials, the Challenged party gets to pick the weapons. If I have a Dire Wolf available, and was not A). Brain-Dead or B.) Kali Liao, I would elect to fight augumented. "No, Mister Elemental, Sir. I want to fight you barehanded so the fact that you are twice my height, several times my weight, and actually trained in hand-to-hand combat can come back and bite me in the behind." Not.
I'd fight in a way that suited me.
Elemental Points are often more than a match for 'Mechs. One Elemental, alone, is not.
There's a line, I believe from the MW3 RPG, that says "The unspoken belief amongst the Clans is that if so much effort has gone into breeding muscle, the intellect must inevitably have suffered."
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/28/03 08:32 AM
203.124.2.55
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Have you read the book?
If you have, then think about how stupid your comments sounded.
Jake took on the Atlas mano-a-mano. Not his point, not his star. He, himself.
ONE elemental.
That's the unrealistic part for Karagin.
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
02/28/03 08:52 AM
65.129.167.195
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Again I don't buy it given how the single elemental took down the Atlas at the end, and given that no one puts a fool in an Atlas the whole fight was already weighted to favor the hero of the story...I out grew that kind of writting way back in 6th grade.
Four mechs vs 300 elementals isn't a forgone conclusion that the elementals automatically win. Please go fight the battle out via the board game and then tell us who won the fight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/28/03 08:53 AM
65.129.167.195
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Thanks...you summed it up nicely.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Thor_Mech
02/21/04 11:40 AM
205.187.191.11
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The head of the Atlas was badly torn up when Jake came up to it. Also, Jake was nearly killed by the one blow from the Atlas. Also, if you read the book, the Kurita pilot is relatively inexperienced against Elementals. I might be wrong, but I think this might be his first actuall combat drop against Elementals. Remember, when Elementals first showed up, IS pilots kept getting wasted by them. Shin Yodama on Edo and his lance were nearly destoyed by them due to targeting problems, and an Atlas isn't known for stunning speed.
"Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills"
- Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard
Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
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