AC/20 Territory: Which is the best?

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Silenced_Sonix
11/16/03 10:42 AM
168.209.97.34

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First off: I'm a n00b to CBT, so try to keep that in ind when viewing my question.

After playing my first ever CBT match (my Enforcer vs. my friend's Hunchback), I soon learnt the perils of coming too close to anything carrying an AC/20. Using The Drawing Board, we then went and experimented with various combinations, including the Clan UAC/20 (prefered best weapon of my friend). Now I have a question: is the AC/20, and it's Clan equivalent, worth the expense in ammo and tonnage, given its short range? Slaved to a Targeting Computer, it's pretty dangerous, yes, but not everything has the space or the tonnage for a TCPU.

So I'd just like to know: what's the verdict on point-blank AC's like the AC/20? Stick with it or stuff it?
Evolve or Die
Devlin
11/16/03 11:54 AM
216.114.96.86

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I also favor the Clan Ultra AutoCannon 20. The Hunchback is a vicious mech, and a drawing board version I put together is twice as bad with a trio of Clan ER Medium Lasers, Clan Targeting Computer, and jump jets. The only problem is ammo, but a little strategic armour shaving fixes that, with Endosteel Structure. The pointblank factor is irrelevent if the mech moves fast enough, and has jump jets- the movement modifiers to hit such a mech as it closes make it worth the trouble. The Clan Variant is superior to the IS, but the heat does raise caution. ALWAYS put CASE around the ammo (CASE II is better), as 1 ton of ammo detonates for 100 points. Good luck.
It's only impossible until you do it, then it was easy
Devlin
11/16/03 12:05 PM
216.114.96.86

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I've sent along to variants I use- one is 50 tons, the other 65. Since Classic BattleTech list the Hunchback as both (with the Clan Variant, IIC, at 100 tons), I shipped both. I favor the Hunchback and have most of the stats on the various variants. Attachment (1116 downloads)
It's only impossible until you do it, then it was easy
Silenced_Sonix
11/16/03 01:11 PM
168.209.97.34

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Hmm, interesting... (dissects 'Mech in TDB)

Here's something you might want to look a: a group of 'Mech's we've been using, along with the standard CBT models. It's for TDB version 2.0.27, just in case you might need to update Attachment (1058 downloads)
Evolve or Die
tgsofgc
11/16/03 02:13 PM
67.4.193.155

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The way I view the utility of the AC 20 is mainly as a metter of role and preferences. First if the mech's role has it mainly engaging mechs at shorter ranges, such as a brawler or urban fighter (hunchback), the AC 20 is a great weapon. Because it makes big holes, or simply blows through lighter mech sections, can head chop, and a single hit causes a piloting skill roll at the end of the turn to remain standing (20+ damage in a turn). However the AC 20 is also very easily replaced by PPC / ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles. Both of these weapons while weaker will usually free up weight from the mech and help deal with the AC20s poor ammo capacity.
Generally a Long Range fighter will choose the Gauss Rifle, close to the same tonnage, longer range, better ammo capacity, and more heat efficient. Both weapons can head chop, though the Gauss Rifle doesn't deal enough damage alone to cause the piloting role.
Multi Range (Multi Role) units and those whom will likely need to stay in the field for a long time get the best advantages of the PPC / ERPPC. In clantech the ERPPC is very deadly remaining a head chopper, with long range, no ammo dependancy, and no minimium range. The main things dissuading units from using PPC / ERPPCs are the fact that Inner sphere versions don't head chop (though they peirce, for that chance for a cockpit critical ), poor damage to heat ratio (especially with the ER), minimum range (with the PPC), and the bulkyness of Inner Sphere double heat sinks.

For the role I think the Hunchback is pretty good and the AC 20 is wholely the best choice of the three. In general I like the Gauss Rifle and PPCs better. As to which type of AC 20s I like, well my favorite would be the somewhat unpopular LBX 20. This cannon can hole punch very well and then shoot buck shot for critical stripping, extremely effective. I never was big on Ultra ACs because I find them in actual battle to be far less effective than many try to lead you to believe (those double shots don't always hit you know, and jamming can happen), also when using continually in Ultra mode they become big heat and ammo hogs.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
Diablo
11/18/03 11:11 AM
66.207.113.110

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AC/20 is fine and dandy if you put it into a mech with decent speed to put the thing into range of something. the short range I've managed to reduce with the advent of LR targeting gear (LR/SR if u can spare the half ton). usualy AC/20 mechs of mine come in two flavors, one, and LR much mech that needs some SR chewage. this mech usualy uses an LBX type for crit exploiting. and my second type involoves the wee little mech, just big enough to carry the sucker, a ton or two of ammo and MASC. run in, shoot, run away or die trying.

beyond those two uses, think carefuly about using an AC/20. the range can be a disadvantage when mounted on the heavier mechs (i.e. lvl.1 Atlas), where the tonnage could buy you a guass rifle or a PPC or two. but meh, player preferance. thats what it comes down to. (i use small lasers frequently despite the MG superiority. but maybe thats just cuz I'm crazy )
"whats that bluish fuzzy thing on your head?"
-Luciphear to Talis, just before he exploded.

www.geocitis.com/luciph34r
Sarge
12/17/03 02:27 AM
63.239.75.124

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Load up with ER PPC's, LRMs and LBX 10's and stay more than 12 hexes from your buddy fry his slow AC 20 arse
-Sarge
HardKorHippy
03/02/04 09:21 PM
65.145.212.147

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AC/20= OUCH!
Ultra AC/20= DOUBLE OUCH!
LB-20X= PIECE OF CRAP
Hunchback=God of Medium IS Mechs!
Alemnyr
03/03/04 04:54 PM
208.38.59.91

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You're kidding right?

You love the AC/20 but don't like the LB-20X?

For an extra critical slot you reduce the heat by 1, increase the range from 3/6/9 to 4/8/12 and you are able to use cluster munitions if you so choose. What's NOT to like about the LB-20X??? It's not like you HAVE to use clusters...

LB-20X improves on two of the AC/20s problems - less heat and longer range. If only you could get more shots per ton of ammo...
Toontje
03/03/04 05:08 PM
217.123.31.80

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Personally I prefer old-fashioned AC/20's. They're simple, no special rules, and probably also have a lower BV. I see the use for LBX-ers, but it takes too long to roll all those hits. Love the Thunder and Saladin. They die easilly, but the punch makes it all run down the opponents legs when they notice it's at short range (both are fast). Still gotta try the Lao Hu, but the LRM-15 and ERLL instead of the MPL's detract from the strong close-range aspect.

The only use for an UAC is on the Hunchback IIC. Do or die.

FS players likely also consider the old-fashioned AC/20 better due to the advanced munitions they've got availlable.
Rather to blow up, then.
Alemnyr
03/03/04 05:10 PM
208.38.59.91

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AH, I forgot about the special munitions for reg ACs.

But seriously - you don't like rolling for cluster munitions on LBXs? DON'T USE THEM. Use the regular slugs. 20 damage, one location, just like AC/20.
Toontje
03/03/04 05:27 PM
217.123.31.80

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I know, actually I do use LBX on occasion, especially after the enemy is opened up. But I don't see much use for the improved ranges, a decent player ought to be able to park anything faster than 2/3 on a decent range band.

But an AC/20 shoud not be at long range, it should be at range short, otherwise it's likely wasting ammo. Now I know its a longer range on the LBX, but I find the difference between range 3 and 4 not worth (x) BV. (I want my BMR back! ) Same with UAC, it's got a slightly better range, but also not really super. And it's even more ammo wasting.

The LBX-10 is a different story, it has the range to make it usefull at longer ranges, I just love the 18 range.
Rather to blow up, then.
Alemnyr
03/03/04 05:44 PM
208.38.59.91

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Ok, BV. Never thought of that. I never touch BV, so didn't know there was a big difference. Sorry about hthat.
HardKorHippy
03/04/04 09:18 PM
65.145.212.164

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Ultra AC/20s own. They can waste ammo, but one solid shot and their down. As for LB-X ACs, I usually can't afford the extra crit or BV. I typically have lots of weapons, combined with FF and ES on my mechs, making for a definite lack of critical space. Also, the BV can seriously reduce its worth in a large scale game, where solid, low BV mechs are what makes or breaks a person's force. Also, special munitions make the standard AC worthwhile. Armor Piercing rounds not as much for larger ACs, though for the AC/2 it's awesome, but Precisions especially increase the weapon's effectiveness.
SSFSX17
03/08/04 05:18 AM
128.195.93.199

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I'd say that it depends on what kind of battlefield you're going into. In large open spaces, hilly and mountainous areas, and thick forests, you will want the GR or ER-PPC more. I'd say that the place where the AC/20 really shines is in the middle of an extremely dense city. In such situations, you can't even see your enemies until they're within range of your AC/20 anyways. TheUM-R60L, a very cheap AC/20 mech, can sometimes be a stupid walking trashcan just asking to be kicked over - except when it's in an actual urban area, in which case you learn to be very afraid of the way that city officials keep trash dumpsters in every alleyway. Really tall mountain pillars, sheer cliffs, and earth walls also strongly favor the AC/20 over the other big guns.

The best way to counter a heavy user of the AC/20 is to engage 'im outdoors and rely heavily on staying farther away than 9 hexes. This way, you can make use of GR or PPC superiority - most likely the PPC, since long-distance battles are just asking to be drawn out enough to require infinite ammo. The Hunchback is a pretty nice design, but all of its AC/20 variants are just suped-up Urbanmechs for the purpose of replacing 3 urbies with 2 hunchbacks.

If you're a Clanner who wants a one-gun-fits-all approach, stick with the TC + MPLs if you want to devastate someone within 6 to 9 hexes.
Lousy good-for-nothing mortals. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
Sauragnmon
03/08/04 09:48 AM
24.43.67.18

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Myself, I've always loved the AC/20, in all its forms. It's a real frickin large shotgun. More ammo for an AC/20, I'd be tempted to say use a Caseless AC/20. It gets more ammo to the ton, IIRC. The AC/20 is the ultimate deterrent for the big bad melee mechs... ones that carry around a hatchet etc. "Just get close enough to use that thing, I damnedwell dare you." The Hunchback IIC, when I first saw its abilities, I fell in love with it. For a medium mech, that thing packs some serious punch. Pull that out in a city, and hide it well, and you can put the enemy in a whole world of hurt. They come around a corner, you close to stupidly close range, and BAM BAM BAM BAM, four AC-20 shots at point blank range. That's more than enough damage to put some mechs in a serious world of hurt, especially if one shot hits the head. Come at the side of a mech with that combination. You're likely to blow the armor off an arm or a leg, or even a torso. It's just a whole lot of big bad bang for your buck. I love them. Now imagine a variant Hunchback with RAC-20. Close range fire, full six round burst. Feel the burn.
wartang
03/17/04 08:32 PM
209.201.75.7

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rac-20s? what are the stats for those
i love this game
khanj42
03/18/04 08:58 PM
207.172.216.205

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Hey man, got nothing against the AC or UAC/20s. A really neat trick when playing a multiple-mech battle is to take something like a Summoner Delta that has jump jets and an Ultra-20. Your opponent will send his most powerful 'mechs after it right away. Use the threat of the dreaded "Ultra 20 double-tap" to keep them fearing your short-range guy while you pick him off from afar with another mech.
Death_Fire
04/27/04 12:22 PM
164.58.75.74

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This is just what I think. When you start off with money and have to buy your mech, shoot no! But if you have a tonnage you can go up to, go for it.
The winning team is the first team that wins!
-Hitchikers Guide To The Galixies
Omega
05/02/04 09:43 PM
207.69.137.36

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I like the Standard ACs as some one who use's New type ammo is great and there is a cannon level 3 rule that's let a player fire a AC kinda like a UAC but can use the new type ammo.
and the RAC are okay but I think both UACs and LBx's aare a plie of crap and not worth the waste of things needed to make them

Omega
"There are two Main enemys of a Merc.
Heat & the most deadly of Foes our Financing".

(Drawing done by LawGiver)

"A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is Finished When he quits"-President R. M. Nixon
Marshall
05/19/04 02:51 PM
63.92.109.50

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Quote:

AC/20= OUCH!
Ultra AC/20= DOUBLE OUCH!
LB-20X= PIECE OF CRAP
Hunchback=God of Medium IS Mechs!




First post! Well, I have to disagree with your comments on the LB-20x being crap and the Hunchback king of the mediums. I've been playing BT for a long time, and while the Hunchback is to be respected, from a 3025 standpoint, there are better mechs for overall situations. I myself like Centurions, Phoenix Hawks, Griffins and Wolverines(Marik version with the large laser especially.) As for the LB rounds, cluster rounds can really mess over someone's day, like when I got to play Saturday night for the first time in a long time. A cluster round from my Crockett got 2 crits on a T-bolt(Steiner variant w/PPC). One of those crits was a lower 6 SRM ammo hit on the CT. Can you say, 'boom?' If playing with level 1 tech, try to stay out of the H-back's way and saber dance with it, or get in its rear arc with a faster 'Mech. That paper thin rear torso armor is a liability if you get some rear shots. But, the H-back does have lots of variants, including one with 8 medium lasers and the heat sinks to use them.

As for the LB statement, LB 20's sphere and Clan have longer range than standard ones. Ultra's are nice, but you gotta roll 8 or better to get both rounds to hit. I haven't used RAC's, but they sound like Ultra's x2. Just IMHO, mind you.

Marshall Dragoo
Silenced_Sonix
05/22/04 01:46 PM
168.209.97.34

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Two questions:
1) What is the fluff behind the Caseless AC's? I know the rules - ammo explosion on a roll of 2, nothing else - but why did they only make an appearance now? The German Leopard II uses a caseless main cannon - why would the IS only get it at Tech 3? And why would the Clans not have this system also - I mean, the UAC also gives problems at a roll of 2, except the Caseless AC's just get 50% more ammo per bin. Anyone?

2) Hyper-velocity AC's: what is the deal there? I remember something about causing a cloud of smoke behind the 'Mech when it fires, but what are its advantages/disadvantages beyond that?
Evolve or Die
Greyslayer
05/22/04 04:35 PM
216.14.192.234

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AC 20s are basically psychological weapons, it takes big chunks of armour off a unit and if the unit is unlucky or too light, entire locations, but overall very inefficient.

Positives:
- damage all to one location. Weapons doing smaller amounts of damage just don't have that kind of output.
- you hit, you force opponent to roll a pilot skill check if still standing.
- if taking off head (which does not transfer damage from!) or leg with AC 20 it pretty much improves salvage if playing mercenary or campaign type games.

Negatives:
- ammo dependant, this ammo goes BOOM!
- high heat for ammo-type weapon.
- heavy
- short-ranged. This really causes the unit to hold back often in firing as chances to hit are higher due to range brackets.
- ineffective against heavily armoured vehicles (example even a light hovercraft like a J Edgar can easily change facings to take damage from an AC 20 with reduced chances of motive criticals or Critical hits)
- unable to be used under water

the 3025 breakdown:
14 tons
7 heat
effectively needs 2 tons more for ammo.

medium laser replacement
4 tons
12 heat

A great example of a straight swap of AC 20 for medium lasers is the Hunchback, one 'swayback' variant has 8 mediums and 1 small laser with 23 heat sinks, a far superior mech in my opinion. The great advantage is that even if you need 12s to hit you still fire 7 mediums, run and gain no heat but at least have 7 chances to hit. you wouldn't even want to waste ammo with the AC20 at those odds in the other version so only its 2 arm-mounted mediums could be fired in this situation. Another version uses the inefficient LRM10 rack to come up with a long/close Hunchback, probably would've been better served with either LRM5s (most effective) or to keep the feel of a hunchback with a single big gun, a LRM20 (which is more heat efficient than the 2 LRM 10s). Still a decent unit either way.
Marshall
05/23/04 01:51 AM
63.69.225.45

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Quote:

AC 20s are basically psychological weapons, it takes big chunks of armour off a unit and if the unit is unlucky or too light, entire locations, but overall very inefficient.

Positives:
- damage all to one location. Weapons doing smaller amounts of damage just don't have that kind of output.
- you hit, you force opponent to roll a pilot skill check if still standing.
- if taking off head (which does not transfer damage from!) or leg with AC 20 it pretty much improves salvage if playing mercenary or campaign type games.

Negatives:
- ammo dependant, this ammo goes BOOM!
- high heat for ammo-type weapon.
- heavy
- short-ranged. This really causes the unit to hold back often in firing as chances to hit are higher due to range brackets.
- ineffective against heavily armoured vehicles (example even a light hovercraft like a J Edgar can easily change facings to take damage from an AC 20 with reduced chances of motive criticals or Critical hits)
- unable to be used under water

the 3025 breakdown:
14 tons
7 heat
effectively needs 2 tons more for ammo.

medium laser replacement
4 tons
12 heat

A great example of a straight swap of AC 20 for medium lasers is the Hunchback, one 'swayback' variant has 8 mediums and 1 small laser with 23 heat sinks, a far superior mech in my opinion. The great advantage is that even if you need 12s to hit you still fire 7 mediums, run and gain no heat but at least have 7 chances to hit. you wouldn't even want to waste ammo with the AC20 at those odds in the other version so only its 2 arm-mounted mediums could be fired in this situation. Another version uses the inefficient LRM10 rack to come up with a long/close Hunchback, probably would've been better served with either LRM5s (most effective) or to keep the feel of a hunchback with a single big gun, a LRM20 (which is more heat efficient than the 2 LRM 10s). Still a decent unit either way.




I still like 'em, though. Is that a crime? If you do use a 'Mech w/AC 20, make sure it has support from PPC/LRM carrying 'Mechs. As for most efficient weapons in the game, the IS medium laser, to get off track a bit is the most efficient weapon by far. But the others are still needed to provide some range. I've always liked LRM's, but that goes more with personal preference than anything. I loathe AC/2's and 5's, as they are too heavy for what they do. LRM 5's are also a waste IMHO. I'd rather have a 10 rack or greater, gives me more damage potential.

But to get on topic, it seems most of the weapons in the game have some drawback to them. You can't always get what you want. Still, the AC/20 is one of my favorite weapons, if you can get it to hit.

Marshall
Nightward
05/23/04 09:17 PM
211.26.66.226

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On the other hand, 2 LRM5s weigh less than one LRM-10.

Depends on what effect you're going for.

A/C-2s and 5's have their uses. Try using a SHD-2H Shadow Hawk in your next game; it may look like a mess on paper, but its versatility is wonderful to behold.

Ditto the Partisan A/C-2 Variant. I hate that thing.

A/C-2s are generally used for a tactic called "Plinking". The idea is that because the range is so great, ammo is so plentiful, and heat is so low that you can ALWAYS fire them. And each time you fire you have a chance of inflicting a Head or CT Critical hit. LB-2X A/Cs make this tactic even more devastating.

Me, I like PPCs. Especially Clan PPCs.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
coldwave
05/23/04 10:42 PM
24.237.139.11

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One of my personal, favorite mechs is the BlackJack BJ-1. I absolutely LOVE that mech. It drives LRM campers insane, as it outranges them, and since it mounts 4 ML's, it can hold it's own fairly well in close combat. Although a little light on armour, it, for me, is a really decent mech. When I combine it with a good o'l Enforcer, I'm typically very successful. Note, this is when I play LVL1.

- Tanaka
Silenced_Sonix
05/28/04 04:10 PM
168.209.97.34

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Anyone have a comment on the Caseless and Hyper-velocity AC's?
Evolve or Die
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/22/04 05:46 PM
65.1.53.170

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The AC/20, and especially the clan ultra variant, is both an effective psychological and employable weapon. It is great at doing what it was designed for, taking things apart quickly at point blank ranges(especially if the dice are rolling your way). I personally don't use them, if I pack an Autocannon at all, it'd be an Ultra2 or LBX20. I'd much rather decimate the enemy with a few ERPPC's and ERML's, with maybe a dash of SSRM6 or CLRM20 for good measure. As was mentioned before, each of the weapons systems in the game come with pros and cons, much as in the real world. It's more up to your preference and mission type, not to mention the chassis you're planning on hindering with such a heavy weapon. BTW, on an unrelated note, how does one go about getting back into active gaming (other than PC games) such as PBEM, NetMech, or the old school Board game? Been itchin' to pull the old Wolf Alpha galaxy out, dust them off, and tear something up again. In the meantime, however, feel free to find me playing MW4 online or even occasionally MC2. Look for my name Lone Wolf and my Alpha faction. Perhaps we can create a new guild or clan on MW4 and teach the gausszillas with no real BT knowledge a thing or two, eh?
Minnime
07/18/04 06:30 PM
217.229.101.121

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Quote:

Anyone have a comment on the Caseless and Hyper-velocity AC's?




Nope, I don't use level 3.
Just imho: Level 3 is the worst of all, totally fuxos the game up.

I however love the AKs as well, but my personal little love is the light rail gun, dunno why, but it pawns.

100 Ton, 3/5/0 4 Light Railguns, 1 ER PPC (lvl2), 19,5tons of Armor....

But in terms of pure Damage the Ultra AK 20 of course owns, but however, you can take medium lasers as replacement.

But there is no combo to beat the 80 Damage of 2 Ultra AKs, except for 8 PPCs but that disables your mech...

greets
Minni
Silenced_Sonix
10/03/04 12:22 PM
168.209.97.34

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Talking about Lvl3 - how about a RAC/20 going at full rate of fire? A theoretical 120 points of damage, as well as something like 42 points of heat... I wonder.
Evolve or Die
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