Cray
01/22/04 05:42 PM
68.200.106.169
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A hypothetical situation.
After the Star League Civil War, the Star League is dissolved, but without claims to the throne of the Star League. Big Al Kerensky sticks around and gives the Evil Eye to anyone who thinks of invading the Terran Hegemony, and buys the Hegemony enough time to recover. What follows is another low tempo "Second Age of War," like a Third Succession War that started without the goal (throne of the Star League), the brutality of the First and Second Succession Wars, and without Comstar. Everyone isn't fighting everyone, or ganging up on the Hegemony; the Second Age of War is a bunch of disconnected brushfire wars over disconnected things. You don't get to argue the back story, that's just what happens. So there. Nyah.
Now, how long does it take the combined (well opposing) efforts of the Six Houses to match Clan weaponry?
Remember, these folks didn't blow themselves back down to the bedrock like the Clans/Exodus survivors, and are much, much more numerous than the Exodus survivors.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Diablo
01/22/04 09:01 PM
65.48.253.212
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i'd say about half time time. nessessity is the mother of invention. without a major war to fuel weapons research, no one really cares. weapons are advanced as it is but the reaserch put into them will go at a slower rate. now, I'd like to give a year, but my battletech history is sketchy at best.
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tgsofgc
01/22/04 11:53 PM
67.4.202.232
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Well I personally never bought the whole... Yeah they have star league computer cores so despite the fact that they aren't innovative, have a small society, and don't engage in large scaled warfare (or war that encourage true innovation) they still develope superior equipment to the inner sphere. I always felt given the clans background that at best they should have slightly better equipment (say Star League era but slightly better).
So back to the original question.... I would say that major innovaton would probally ocure by 3025-3030, quite convenient as that is when the memory core was found before. Here when I say major improvement I mean clantech grade equipment by cannon terms, assuming it is inevitable.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Cray
01/23/04 05:54 AM
68.200.106.169
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Quote:
without a major war to fuel weapons research, no one really cares.
Threat of war is also inspirational. See: Cold War.
In the proposed setting, the Terran Hegemony has been damaged by the war with Amaris. It is now surrounded by hostile neighbors who do not attack not because they're peace loving, but because the remains of the SLDF are offering too stern a fight. That SLDF advantage isn't going to last forever, so the Hegemony not only needs to rebuild, but it needs to regain some edge over its 5 neighbors. Since the Hegemony is smaller than each of its neighbors...there aren't a lot of options for "edges" other than "advanced technology."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/23/04 08:05 AM
195.238.38.73
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Interesting idea...I think we went over this once before but the topic became one of folks arguing and such.
I would think that given the same amount of time and similar events of the Clans, ie interal fighting in the Hegemongy and the need for a large warrior group could have led to the building of the weapons and mechs of the Clans.
I followed a similar idea for my Terran Defense Force, they had Omnis and some Clan tech like the AMS and such in limited amounts. Also one of the guys in my group took things to the next level and mixed the best of the Clan tech with the best of the IS tech and called it Human Tech and well let's not get into how that turned out...let's just say the whole set of battles became blood baths for the non-human tech side...(imagine Clan Pulse lasers and TCs with C3 and C3I)
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/23/04 08:17 AM
195.238.38.73
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Even with the Cold War weapons tech isn't at the level it could be since buget restraints are the key factor in what get's made and what doesn't.
We know how to make laser weapons...yet they are still the size of small cars for power sources and the need of special suits to use the hand held versions makes them less appealing to the military...yet we know how to make them just don't have a need. Having enemies doesn't mean you have to have everything updated daily. You can use other factors to gain and keep an edge over your enemies be it diplomatic or economic.
So I have to agree that weapons like the Clan ones would need something similar to the inter-Clan warfare or another SL civil war to fuel their getting built so as to have them for the current time line other wise it could 3125 before they show up.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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JStallion
02/02/04 10:19 PM
69.47.164.192
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I think-
The "Cold War" effect would keep everyone making bigger better weapons, which could include omnimechs and better weapons. The clans came up with omnimechs,elementals, and other advances not too long after the exodus then sat around until protomechs. So in this hypothetical BT, if there were never succesion wars, yet still the fear, couldnt the houses surpass clan tech fairly quickly after it wouldve actually been made in real BT time?
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Cray
02/03/04 07:36 AM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
The "Cold War" effect would keep everyone making bigger better weapons, which could include omnimechs and better weapons. The clans came up with omnimechs,elementals, and other advances not too long after the exodus then sat around until protomechs. So in this hypothetical BT, if there were never succesion wars, yet still the fear, couldnt the houses surpass clan tech fairly quickly after it wouldve actually been made in real BT time?
That's the conclusion I came to. The Star League was constantly (but slowly) developing new weapons without war - the Terran Hegemony only had an edge in technology over the larger Houses, so it worked to maintain that lead. Take away the stability of the Star League and I think you'll see a rush to develop new military technology by all sides, especially if there's actually a "Second Age of War" going on, as I posited.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/03/04 09:27 AM
217.26.84.5
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Quote:
Quote:
The "Cold War" effect would keep everyone making bigger better weapons, which could include omnimechs and better weapons. The clans came up with omnimechs,elementals, and other advances not too long after the exodus then sat around until protomechs. So in this hypothetical BT, if there were never succesion wars, yet still the fear, couldnt the houses surpass clan tech fairly quickly after it wouldve actually been made in real BT time?
That's the conclusion I came to. The Star League was constantly (but slowly) developing new weapons without war - the Terran Hegemony only had an edge in technology over the larger Houses, so it worked to maintain that lead. Take away the stability of the Star League and I think you'll see a rush to develop new military technology by all sides, especially if there's actually a "Second Age of War" going on, as I posited.
Let's see no throne of the SL to fight over so why would the other houses attack the Hegmongy? Again why would they need to when they know that what is left of the SLDF is there and they are still stronger then the house units...
The whole cold war idea would work, but given that the model it's based on there were a dozen or more small wars to test and use the equipment and tactics and such in. Good examples of this Vietnam, the Arab-Isreali wars etc...Fear is a good motivator but soon or later the lag of not having anyone to face will take it's toll or not having an enemy that is equal to your level of technology to fully test the systems you have just spent billions on.
If the TH had stayed in the picture, I don't see anyone bugging them unless they really had no one else to fight...Now my question for this is would the CapCon still be slammed or not? And here is one...would HPG tech be better or on the current level?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/03/04 09:51 AM
147.160.1.5
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Let's see no throne of the SL to fight over so why would the other houses attack the Hegmongy?
I think attacking the Hegemony in the Succession Wars never had anything to do with claiming the Star League throne. It was just a grab for valuable, poorly defended planets. Consider: the annexations (and contests for annexed ex-Hegemony worlds) continued even after Comstar snagged Terra and denied it to the rest of the Inner Sphere.
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Again why would they need to when they know that what is left of the SLDF is there and they are still stronger then the house units...
That's not necessarily correct. Many SLDF troopers were House citizens who demobilized to their home nations, bringing large amounts of combat experience to House militaries. In canon, House Lords were trying to "poach" whole divisions, which is one of several things that prompted Kerensky to launch his Exodus. In this setting, the SLDF-turned-THAF found large amounts of its military equipment in the hands of soldiers who fought for the Star League, not the Terran Hegemony. Only the "Royal" SLDF units were truly Hegemony units, so the SLDF-turned-THAF quickly booted out the foreigners (as politely as possible) and replaced them with green Hegemony recruits. In the mean time, House militaries had been building up their troops since the Amaris Civil War began (after all, Star League-enforced military size limits were no longer enforced), and House infrastructures were not damaged by war.
The end result is that the THAF is unlikely to be much more effective than one or two House militaries, and it's working uphill against damaged industries, damaged economies, and damaged populations.
(Funny, I'm arguing the position I always have to argue against. The popular opinion on other boards is that the Hegemony is screwed if the SLDF sticks around and tries to protect it. Where were you all those times, Karagin?  )
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The whole cold war idea would work, but given that the model it's based on there were a dozen or more small wars to test and use the equipment and tactics and such in. Good examples of this Vietnam, the Arab-Isreali wars etc...Fear is a good motivator but soon or later the lag of not having anyone to face will take it's toll or not having an enemy that is equal to your level of technology to fully test the systems you have just spent billions on.
Good point. There are wars in this setting, as I indicated in the original post - the post Star League era is called "The Second Age of War." Without the SLDF holding things in check (and there had been three "hidden wars" during the Star League era even with the SLDF...), the Houses are playing out their pent up grudges. Except for the Combine, two-front wars are rare in this era, but there's always several border conflicts going on. I think I described this more on HMPro.com, in the thread of the same name.
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If the TH had stayed in the picture, I don't see anyone bugging them unless they really had no one else to fight...
That could be the exact case. Like I said, two-front wars are rare, but someone's always fighting someone else, and at least a few House lords are going to get the idea that the war-damaged worlds of the Hegemony are vulnerable.
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Now my question for this is would the CapCon still be slammed or not?
Very interesting question. I don't know. I suspect the Liaos would be one of the Houses prone to attacking the Hegemony, which would probably result in the CCAF being thinned out, which would give the FS and FWL a chance to make some border adjustments.
OTOH, the Second Age of War does not escalate to First and Second Succession War levels of violence, so the problems with wrecked industries and lost planets is not there.
I suppose you could argue things either way. What would you prefer? CC slammed or not?
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And here is one...would HPG tech be better or on the current level?
Another interesting question. Probably better. If nothing else, you'd probably see more frequent use of HPGs than Comstar's Succession War-era once a week transmissions from A-rated stations. Several novels and Explorer Corps describe nearly real-time conversations across HPG chains using rapid "firing" HPGs. I wouldn't be surprised by hourly transmissions from major planetary HPGs, and perhaps further increases in range. However, maintenance of HPGs would be up to individual Houses - there's no Comstar in the setting.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/03/04 01:03 PM
213.187.151.74
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I don't see the TH screwed if the SLDF stuck around...what I see is most if not all of the troops loyal to Kerensky sticking with him and the reformed TH. As long as he is around and in a postion to give them the right direction to go they will follow.
Grabing the planets was to two fold for the Houses, one it gave them planets and the resources as well as the technology on that planet or planets. Now I don't see this happening if the SLDF is still there being called THAF forces or just TAF (Terran Armed Forces). I just don't see the Houses going full bore. THey may raid and probe but I don't see an all out attack like they did in the canon universe.
Small wars and such would be needed to keep the tech tree growing. Look at things currently...we have three major nations pushing military tech...China, the US and Russia (to some degree)...lot's of folks are trying and while some are doing well other's are not. So you need some thing to give the cause and the effect.
The CapCon seems to be the logical bash and trash group. Given their location and size. At some point the TH will have to expand and if as you are suggesting that most of the former SL tech is in the hands of the Houses to some extent, then using proxy wars and such would allow the TH to get Clan level tech around the time of 3030...maybe sooner, but I don't see everything at once either. Maybe the next breakthrough comes with say smaller ACs or Gauss rifles then Heat sinks or engine tech...each thing has to be made because of a foreseen need and then the TH will have to convice the folks who run the pruse strings, R&D can go on for years before the actually weapon systems ever sees the light of day. Lot's of examples around of this.
I argee that HPGs would get better, that's why I asked, one expantion on this is would they get smaller over all in size and have longer range as well? Or would the net like they have in the BT universe stilll be needed?
What about jump engines and other related items? Do warships and dropships improve as well?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/03/04 01:24 PM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
I argee that HPGs would get better, that's why I asked, one expantion on this is would they get smaller over all in size and have longer range as well? Or would the net like they have in the BT universe stilll be needed?
Drawing from canon:
*Late Star League-era HPGs were as small as 9 tons. 3050-era Comstar HPGs were 50 tons. Ergo, there's room for improvement. Likely into the range of 5 tons and less - command mechs with HPGs?
*The Clans have their ChatterWeb, which I believe stretches across HPGs. Some form of net may result, which would produce some interesting interlinking of star systems. I don't believe the Star League had anything comparable.
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What about jump engines and other related items?
There's almost certainly room for improvement.
On one hand, the Star League built jump cores as small as 2500 tons, a feat which is not (IIRC) possible with AT2 construction rules because they set a lower limit of 50kton for jumpships. The possibilities of ultra-small jump cores suggest a couple of developments. One, even smaller cores. 1000 tons, 500 tons, etc. Two, jumpships capable of landing on normal planets might develop - suitable for early stages of colonial development, ultra-independent ground forces, and yachts of the wealthy.
On the other hand, there's the SLS Manassas, which had a starring role in the adventure "Living Legends." This Aegis-class ship was able to jump up to 40 light-years per jump, vs the normal 30. The Manassas was experimental and troublesome, and Big Al Kerensky used it to carry politically troublesome types. An extension of the Manassas's technology might allow 40 to 60LY jumps.
Going beyond canon, the ability to generate artificial jump points for HPGs might reach viability for jumpships, which would enable jumpships to operate away from normally viable jump zones. Or perhaps, depending on the implementation, may result in "jump gates." However, it was said that the artificial jump points used by HPGs were too energy intensive to use on matter.
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Do warships and dropships improve as well?
The Clans improved upon dropship engines (6.1% of mass vs the IS's 6.5%), so there's room for improvement. Did you have anything in mind? Lighter hulls, warship armor types, higher fire control limits?
Warships...well, I'd like to see lighter capital weapons. If Clan-levels of size reduction were seen, like 25% mass reductions, that'd be nice. Or damage increases to make them more effective for their tonnage.
And lighter KF drives would be nice for warships, at least rounded down to convenient round number, like 40% of the ship's mass.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/03/04 01:46 PM
213.187.151.74
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I love getting a couple of days off when some one else messes up... 
So you are invisioning roughly a 5% drop in weights and such for the weapons up to say 25% to reach Clan leaves for the TH?
On warships I would expect or hope, that if the TH stayed in the picture with their big leap on tech and all they would have capital weapons weighing a lot less. Maybe 30% of what we see currentlly in the game. On ther engine front I won't be surprised if they dont end up with smaller jump engines to the point that jumpships are considered osbsolete. Maybe I would go as far as to say dropships with these small jump engines. Picture a Mammoth or Behemoth class DS able to jump between systems without the need for a jumpship...
But let me go this route and I wll come back to comment on the other questions in a few days...what limits are you putting on things for the TH? Right now one could say that the best thing would be for the TH to do is wait tell the IS makes the C3 system or they themselves make it and then combine it with the Clan like TCS and Pulse Lasers etc...so what limits would you have set in there?
On the HPGs...I don't see them getting down to the level of being in mechs...while only 9 tons they could be the size of a small boat for all that matters. I could see them being on the scale that you could walk into a coffee shop and use them like phones and the internet is now...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/03/04 03:02 PM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
I love getting a couple of days off when some one else messes up...
I was about to ask. You've been posting all day. 
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So you are invisioning roughly a 5% drop in weights and such for the weapons up to say 25% to reach Clan leaves for the TH?
The estimates on other forums suggest 50 to 80 years to reach Clan Tech levels of performance in mech/vehicle/fighter weapons, or by 2840 to 2870 the TH would have Clantech (without Clan culture and rules of engagement...)
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On ther engine front I won't be surprised if they dont end up with smaller jump engines to the point that jumpships are considered osbsolete.
Compact core jumpships lacking dropship docking collars (and hauling over ~500ktons of cargo) are already more cost effective than standard core jumpships. Their money savings are in the dropships - you can leave dropships at destination planets and have them load/unload multiple visiting freighters every week. Standard jumpships always carry a set of dropships with them, so there's more dropships per jumpship.
And if you can have jumpships land on planets, you eliminate the need for dropships almost all together. Quick loading/unloading of containerized cargo on the ground...that'll help interstellar transport.
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...what limits are you putting on things for the TH? Right now one could say that the best thing would be for the TH to do is wait tell the IS makes the C3 system or they themselves make it and then combine it with the Clan like TCS and Pulse Lasers etc...so what limits would you have set in there?
I haven't. The intent of this thread was to garner an estimate of how long it would take this alternate Inner Sphere to reach Clan levels of technology. Then I could plot out a history.
However, I've since been distracted by...
1) A d20 Mutants & Masterminds game (ongoing; player)
2) An anime setting game based on the Shadowrun rules engine (beginning soon; GM)
3) A d20 Urban Arcana game (ongoing; player)
4) A Big Eyes, Small Mouth anime game (beginning soon; player)
5) A Vampire: The Masquerade Game (beginning in 1-2 months; player)
6) Review and comment on upcoming BT product drafts
Three GMs want characters (with histories) from me, one wants extra details on my existing super hero character to round out some "flashback mini-series" adventure plots (scarey: the GM likes my character almost more than I do), I have to sketch out some adventures and get characters generated/approved for my game, and I'm kinda "playing hookie" on the product reviews & commenting thing right now - a wad of new files were posted and I got scared by all the material.
Oh, and:
7) Evercrack. My precious. Evil hobbits is always trying to take away my Evercrack...(after 32 months of work, I just got a character to level 65. Now to pile on some Alternate Advance points.)
So, what started out as idle curiousity that might've led to another alternate BT setting (that several other people have expressed interest in) looks like its going to end as idle curiousity. Sorry. If things slow down, I might return to this setting idea.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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tgsofgc
02/03/04 11:55 PM
67.4.194.65
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Cray I haven't the faintest where you are but if you ever are in MN and decide to get together a game up here, send me an email man. I have stated before I love the setting, and am sad to see it choking to death by the cruel evil hands of Evercrack.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Cray
02/04/04 06:25 AM
68.200.106.169
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Evercrack isn't all consuming (for me) - I've played it ~33 months and have turned out a lot of other settings in that time. I have lost about a year of RPG sessions to Diablo II and, later, EQ addictions among my friends though. "Hey, I got an adventure ready!" "Eh...EQ...it calls to us...the precious..." "No, my adventure!" "...EQ...brains..."
As for gaming, alas, I'm outside the arctic circle and am unlikely to get near MN soon.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/04/04 08:08 AM
195.238.63.21
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I have toyed around with the idea of the SLDF sticking around and the TH staying in the picture...in fact I went as far as to make up some units and such and redo one of the old maps...with slight changes and such to account for a few small wars and all.
Thing I got was while it would have made the wars some what different the stalemate that seemed to be the end result would have still been there.
With the TH having clan tech I think we would have seen the other houses doing one of four things:
Mass producing cheap mechs...akin to fighters and such from some of the other sci-fi games and using swarm tactics to take on the TH.
Trying to steal or copy the TH tech...hey even the TH needs money....
Work on their own versions of new tech...say something like the the HV autocannons or some of the stuff that popped up in MFNA and it's magazine from time to time or maybe something more important like say a new power source or heavier hover tanks or something like that.
Or they could combine everything above and wait to see what happens.
Part of the idea is that the omni-mechs should have come first since each variant is technically similar to what the omni's are. Like what the US Army has done with the M113 APC chassis, you can find that chassis on a lot of other vehicles and such...one frame multi-uses.
I think that the TH could have reached Clan level tech around the late 2900 with some things coming earlier and others only coming AFTER they fight several big wars and have the need to produce certain things. I will give things a whirl and post in a few days on which systems I see happening first.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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