sinsear
Captain
Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Australia
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disturbing trend
#82583 - 02/09/04 10:59 PM (211.26.123.153)
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I just wanted to mention a couple of things, namely the disturbing trend for people to justify anything in order to win.
First (as far as I know) there was the DoS hack. This is out and out cheating, and a dispicable act. It does not even matter if Joker gave the PW out, deleting 3 MILLION bv is just plain wrong.
Now, we have someone using Rox's bp login to dry out some towers. Now, I don't even know Rox, had very little to do with him, and the fact he's being attacked won't make me lose any sleep BUT these sort of illegitimate tactics are not something I condone.
Some people seem to say that 'alls fair in love and war', but that's just crap. This is a game, end of story.
If we justify this behaviour, then where does it stop? What if I come over to your house and steal your PC? is that justified? Hell no!
I wish to sign my name here and state that I will not use such tactics, and shall not condone them in players around me, no matter what their affiliation.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82584 - 02/09/04 11:11 PM (129.138.30.194)
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There have been earlier instances, but these are the two most well known right now.
DoS was bad and completely uncalled for.
ML is just as bad in my mind, because although the person still has to fight that BV, all the towers that relied on ammo are now useless and thus easy kills for rep/moral.
Personally I don't like Rox. I didn't like Joker either. But that is completely another story. If there were a real war then fine, do what ever you need to do. But this isn't a war, it is a game.
The people who do this are more then just low. They also obviously suck at the game. Think about it, if they were good and confident in their skills, then they wouldn't feel the need to do this. They wouldn't feel the need to take advantage of someone who is having this done to them, and if someone offered to do it then they would refuse to do it.
I don't care if it happens to be the person who is best at LW who ends up doing this. If he needs to stoop to this level then he sucks at the game because he needs to rely on mechinsims OUTSIDE the game to ensure his victory.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Mortimus_Jones
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/30/02
Posts: 273
Loc: Middle o' the US of A
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Kit_fox]
#82591 - 02/10/04 01:06 AM (68.88.37.249)
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Yeh. Considering how important BP'ers are going to be when Pirates go fully live, this should be a nice kick in the ass for all of us who have ALL our BP' values set nice and high. I trust my faction mates and all, but hell. It only takes ONE [censored] [censored] eater to make it OK for the rest to take advantoge of a crappy abuse of this "feature".
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Oh poop off already.....
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82593 - 02/10/04 02:03 AM (172.176.233.188)
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Having been piloting in Nikoforce yesterday, I have to throw in that not ALL towers were unloaded but apparently only those on the front he had with Rommel. The mechs under my control walked through a hailstorm of AC10s, LRM10s and SRM2s to finally take his towers down.
That being said, this 'tactic' IS freaking lame, even against someone like Rox. But the admins apparently condone, if not encourage it. Heres a help ticket I wrote in december coz the same thing was done in KM:
Quote:
Ticket ID: # 5030 Public: No
Help Type: Bug Being Addressed Status: Closed
Subject: Vehicle ammo dump Date Opened: 12/18/2003 10:20:04 AM
Posted:
12/18/2003 10:20:04 AM
By: You
Not exactly a bug, but vehicle ammo dump should be disabled. It serves no purpose (they blow up when explosion-critted whether they got ammo or not after all), but its highly abuseable as witnessed in Kizo Major now, where BPers dumped all ammo in vecs to give attackers easy kills...
Lata
Krait
And the Admin reply:
Quote:
Posted:
2/3/2004 11:53:04 AM
By: Randy
Admin Reply:
seems like a fair use of enemy BP access to me ... not much worse than turning a mechs back and saying "all do not fire".
Which is pretty untrue. A turned back Mech can be reclaimed and used correctly again. A vec or tower that has its ammo dumped is rendered useless forever. A single BPer can only claim and hold back so many Mechs. But he can dump ammo on ALL towers and vecs in any given battle. The ammo dump is MUCH more fatal than just controlling and not firing units.
And with pirates using ABR, bigger empires will HAVE to use high BP scores even for faction members they might not know all that well. And well, it takes only one foul apple to spoil the whole basket.
The admins are so hot about feature abuse when its something small and hurts noone (like that mine terrain generation until its good). But this vec ammo dump is clearly a feature that only serves the purpose to be abused to screw someone else, yet its condoned... I really don't understand that...
Lata
Krait
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sinsear
Captain
Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Australia
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Krait]
#82598 - 02/10/04 04:38 AM (211.26.123.162)
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I agree.
I think there should be a log of BP dumps.
also, when someone BP's for you, you should be able to get a rundown of how the battle went.
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Protagoras
Captain
Reged: 08/04/02
Posts: 1131
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82601 - 02/10/04 05:34 AM (161.114.1.185)
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I believe strongly the real problem is that the Admins think the system in place for managing wars with BPers is working while many of the players do not.
From my perspective I think I understand the Admins position and will sum it up thusly:
We want a realistic system for handling warfare. If you choose to trust certain people be it with logins or giving them BP status in your faction you must accept the risk that you will be betrayed. Betrayal has been a recurring theme in BattleTech Literature since the beginning, so place your trust carefully.
Now I like that idea, and in theory (and actuality at some later time) that should be true and the way things should be. I do not however believe we can have such a policy without some better tools to running our wars. Currently as you progress to higher levels, it becomes exponentially harder to manage your affairs be they the mundane running of your empires, or managing these empires in times of war. When pirates come online this will be even more critical. BattlePlayers are a MUST for any empire that expects to survive. We all know the AI does a very poor job in running units, so until the AI can be better trusted, BPers are not optional if you want to survive in war.
The problem is trusting these folks. While the idea is great that you need to make sure your watching carefully to whom you give BP rights, its equally true that until some other viable options exist for managing larger empires the amount of damage that a 'betrayer' or 'spy' BPer should be able to do should be limited as much as the code can reasonably allow.
The response that unloading towers is 'reasonable' for a 'enemy BPer' while consistent with the first point I made, when thought of in terms of the others I think it becomes clear that such an answer is unacceptable. The thought is a good one to add realistic betrayal, the implimentation at this time is bad. Until the AI is made somewhat better, and the means and methods of controlling your forces (both when your on and offline) are made less cumbersome BPer ability to betray should be limited.
Krait's suggestion to not allow vehicles to dump ammo is a reasonable and reasoned response to the recent happenings. And for Pity's sake the deletion of 3Million BV on Duchy of Small also needs to be thought of long and carefully. This is not for the sake of trying to make it a cakewalk for the big guys, I think such things should be limited NOW and temporarily until things are more easily handled. This is not only from the perspective of making the game playable... but also from the perspective of stopping the rush of old players I have grown to know and respect leaving and by their leaving a lessening of Neveron as a whole.
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Wayward_Son
Major
Reged: 07/05/02
Posts: 1287
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Protagoras]
#82662 - 02/10/04 04:51 PM (24.117.206.14)
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You have the abilities to allow or disallow people to BP for you and at what level. If they are in battle you can kick them out. If they are using secondary logins in your empire you can kick them out. You can also set their permissions level, with more permission types to come as we are able to code them.
I am not really clear on how much more control you think you should need. In Joker's case he handed his PW and login out in unsafe situations. We can not be responsible for what happens in that situatiion just as your credit card company would not be sympathetic if you posted your credit card number on a public billboard. There needs to be a certain level of responsibility that players take on, but when things go wrong it seems everyone always wants someone else to blame, and we are easy scapegoats. I do not like what happened to Dutchy of Small any more than many of you do. I thought it was poor gamesmanship on the part of the people who did it, but that is my personal opinion. It was also sheer negligence for Joker to do what he did, and what happened was easily predictable, so I have little sympathy for him.
I'm happy to code a message when someone dumps ammo (as that would be plain to see for anyone on the field). That will help people identify if a BP is sabotaging their units in battle. Beyond that if you see someone not pulling their weight, kick them out of the battle, the empire and the faction. Then sick everyone you can on them as soon as you get the chance as they are clearly asking for an asswhoopin'......from PLAYERS not ADMINS.
WS
Mod please move this thread to General Discussion as it is off-topic for this forum category. Thanks.
Edited by Wayward_Son (02/10/04 04:52 PM)
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sinsear
Captain
Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Australia
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#82665 - 02/10/04 05:03 PM (211.26.51.154)
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the bp ammo dump log is a great idea. Sabotage just isn't on in my opinion, but if someone does it, it'd be apparant.
another point; what's the difference in allowing sabotaging of forces in LW, but not in arenas? I don't think that either is acceptable, but throwing a fight happens all the time in RL. I guess Neveron didn't hire Don King.
also, I started this thread as an attempt to get people to POLITICALLY combat this trend, hence the politics topic.
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#82667 - 02/10/04 05:23 PM (172.177.91.248)
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Well, a message if someone dumps ammo would be something to identify and waste the traitor at least. It would have to be sent to the empire owner (via popup or better yet via nevmail) though because it is very likely that dump will happen while the culprit is the only person in battle, and thus a message generated just in battle would be rather useless...
Lata
Krait
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AndrewCrisp
Sergeant
Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Krait]
#82673 - 02/10/04 07:33 PM (156.34.216.57)
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I think, Wayward, what Sinsear is hoping to accomplish is that some kind of "war convention" be drawn up by the major leaders on Neveron to dictate what can and cannot be done in wartime. Just as the Geneva Convention did on Old Earth, and the Ares Convention did in the Inner Sphere, there must be laws of war and rules of engagement.
It would be a massive undertaking, to say the least, though at least the sentiment for such a convention appears to be there. I would recommend that meetings be set up between at least the major faction leaders to discuss the prospect of a Neveron Convention on War.
Andrew
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"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi
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sinsear
Captain
Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Australia
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: AndrewCrisp]
#82678 - 02/10/04 08:32 PM (211.26.126.125)
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You're on the right track Andrew, but I'm not quite so ambitious.
What I actually would like is for Individual players to state that they will not use sabotage tactics. Let's face it, if you need them, then you have no ability in this game anyway.
If enough players take this pledge, then the factions may take notice, I'm not trying to instigate a total change in Nev, just get some chivalry back.
If enough people agree, then back it up with force of arms, regardless of faction status, then you have reform. At the moment, if I state that I will LW anyone who sabotages, I don't think people will care. If 20 people agree, then people take notice, if a hundred agree, then you have (roughly) 500 empires backing it up.
it's all about small steps. I'm not trying to impose my ideals on anyone, but no one seems to support sabotaging someone eles work.
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Protagoras
Captain
Reged: 08/04/02
Posts: 1131
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#82710 - 02/11/04 04:24 AM (161.114.1.182)
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Quote:
You have the abilities to allow or disallow people to BP for you and at what level.
Quote:
I am not really clear on how much more control you think you should need.
I think you missed the thrust of what I was saying... probably because I did a bit of rambling. So I will summarize my thoughts here.
1) The basic idea of allowing BP sabotage is good and realistic. I like it on its face
2) BP's are not optional but are required for most high level empires
3) Until changes in AI and other managment features allow one to eschew(or at least rely much less heavily) BPer's points 1 and 2 cause a problem
4) Temporarily fixes (such as Kraits not allowing tower ammo dumps) should be implimented where practicable until point 3 above is realized.
Thanks you
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Flameseeker
Major
Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82761 - 02/11/04 04:01 PM (66.82.9.64)
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I tried the same thing with nukes.
A half-hearted group of level 7-10s seemed to actually answer my request.
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Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Flameseeker]
#82770 - 02/11/04 04:17 PM (129.138.30.194)
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But you will notice that no nukes have been dropped other then admins dropping them on cheaters.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Mazer
Colonel
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 1622
Loc: Margaritaville ;)
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Kit_fox]
#82786 - 02/11/04 06:30 PM (68.60.13.118)
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Are you sure that's not just because the admins aren't letting players buy nukes any more after the general outcry? 
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Struck, sir? I have not yet begun to fight! - John Paul Jones
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Mazer]
#82795 - 02/11/04 07:36 PM (129.138.30.194)
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Somehow I doubt that. After all, have the admin's ever stopped making a change because of a general outcry? Have they taken away DP mechs because of the several general outcrys from people who didn't use them?
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Mazer
Colonel
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 1622
Loc: Margaritaville ;)
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Kit_fox]
#82800 - 02/11/04 08:07 PM (68.60.13.118)
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I dunno, just a possibility. Is it more likely that the admins aren't allowing it anymore, or that everyone with the DP hasn't used nukes out of the goodness of their hearts?
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Struck, sir? I have not yet begun to fight! - John Paul Jones
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sinsear
Captain
Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Australia
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Mazer]
#82804 - 02/11/04 09:22 PM (211.26.118.96)
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I think that when u nuke someone, it attaches your name to it, so you have to take responsibility for it. Also, it's damn expensive (1000DP I think) so for that cash you can outfit a battalion of Mad-4a's, which could cause anyone some trouble.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82808 - 02/11/04 09:44 PM (129.138.30.194)
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It does not attach your name to it. It just sends a message:
"A nucular detonation was detected at XXX,YYY"
Also, it isn't DP, but something like 10 billion nev cash.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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airbagTTS
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 220
Loc: near Stuttgart/Germany
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Kit_fox]
#82820 - 02/12/04 02:47 AM (62.152.177.194)
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50 bils, and with 50 bils in nevcash you can do quite some nice damage via lw
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Comment 1: "Life would be much easier if I had the source Code"
Comment 2: "In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?"
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: airbagTTS]
#82822 - 02/12/04 04:23 AM (172.180.87.232)
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Exactly. A Nuke costs 50 bil.
A [censored] that dumps ammo on your enemies towers and vecs is much cheaper (usually free I guess).
So you really can't compare those 2 things.
Lata
Krait
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Sharkman
Captain
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 788
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82889 - 02/12/04 05:36 PM (65.90.13.19)
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Agreed. I will not stoop to such tactics. If I can not beat you fairly, then I will take my lumps.
Anyone that has to stoop to such unethical tactics to win obviously has problems with low self esteem. If you have to cheat to win, I got news for you, while you may feel better in some twisted way, everyone else sees you for the loser that you really are.
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Sharkman
Captain
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 788
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#82890 - 02/12/04 05:44 PM (65.90.13.19)
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Its actually very simple. Dumping of ammo for towers and vehicles should be considered cheating. That BP is in fact making it impossible for the empire under attack to defend, more or less handing the zones over to the attacker.
Vehicles and towers have absolutely no reason to have their ammo dumped out. The only purpose it serves is to allow people of low morale standards to have an effect on the game out of proportion with their actual importance. A BP is a foot soldier, but giving the ability to nullify enemy defenses gives them the power of the commander in cheif, and that is just wrong.
Even a spy in the real BTech Universe couldn't completely void the battle effectiveness of an entire army, if it had been so, then someone would have done it and proclaimed himself Star Lord with no way to stop him.
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sinsear
Captain
Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Australia
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Sharkman]
#82894 - 02/12/04 06:29 PM (211.26.126.37)
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well, if WS gets time to code the battle log, assing a feature that shows who BPed what unit could help.
like;
WSP-1a Waspy attacks tower needs 9 rolls 6. missed (BP: Kerensky's followers)
and especially show ammo dumpings. That way people can still do it if they are low enough, but they'll be found out and summarilly destroyed.
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airbagTTS
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 220
Loc: near Stuttgart/Germany
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#82921 - 02/13/04 02:22 AM (62.152.177.194)
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WS what i see as difference from the other things is the time needed to do this sabotage. A BP only needs about some seconds in a move phase to drop ammo and exit battle again. When you wanna BP mechs to get them destroyed easily you need to move them into range and turn them. usually that takes several rounds and the emp login is able to check which BP did that and react to update BP scores accordingly.
So if you give messages when towers drop ammo it would be usefull to:
A) give that info defending side only
B) include the BP info needed (as usually towers have same name and the time to check which tower dropped ammo and what the current bp of that one is would need some time too)
regards airbagTTS
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Comment 1: "Life would be much easier if I had the source Code"
Comment 2: "In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?"
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: airbagTTS]
#82932 - 02/13/04 04:25 AM (172.179.161.22)
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I would say the ideal way would be if each ammo dump would be accompanied by a popup generated for the emperor, which states something like:
'A battleplayer from the empire 'Traitors r us' dumped ammo on TWR-20976'.
That way the emperor would see it if he is in battle, and also if he is not.
Lata
Krait
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Krait]
#82934 - 02/13/04 05:15 AM (12.47.79.2)
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Having logged in to battleplay for KM and DoS many times, to find empty towers (early in the war, later in DoS it was just due to the volume of attacks) it was very frustrating. . . Yet, not really knowing everyone, how do you know who to trust WW? You can't say "you can control your battleplayer values" because you DON'T KNOW WHO DID IT! That's why we need the logging, so we CAN change the BP values. . .
and you don't see nukes because no empires have 50 billion. . .
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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LiRa
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 369
Loc: Canada
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: Tigre]
#82966 - 02/13/04 11:30 AM (65.92.116.8)
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You only let people into your faction who you trust. It's really, really simple. If you don't trust them, don't set them BP rights. I know 90% of the people in my faction. And so I can set their BP values high. The others I can choose to set them really low. What's compicated about this? Why do you feel the need to grow so fast that you let people in you can't trust? Not even that, why do you feel the need to grow so fast that you can't even let people BP for you?
Another point. This is a war game. People get bribed in war. Their are traitors in war. A high ranking officer(read BP with a high value set) can tell lots of troops to get rid of ammo or run away. Joker was an idiot to give out his password and login. Obviously, this can't be justified, because the emporer wouldn't instantly change. I also feel that better logging available to the person whos empire it is would be a good thing to have. Victories and losses are told to other people and it's going to get back to the emporer.
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Li
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Protagoras
Captain
Reged: 08/04/02
Posts: 1131
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: LiRa]
#82967 - 02/13/04 12:02 PM (161.114.1.182)
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Quote:
Joker was an idiot to give out his password and login.
Until you've run a level 11 empire don't judge. I agree he should have been more circumspect in his dealings, but the whole manner these large empires were doled out meant to properly manage them one had to give out the emperor password, otherwise nothing would have gotten done.
In any case, I hope the new features will help this out some... but I still wish things would go further towards trying to limit the amount of damage a BPer can do.
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Tenshi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/27/03
Posts: 259
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Re: disturbing trend
[Re: sinsear]
#82968 - 02/13/04 01:30 PM (24.196.181.92)
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*signs his name on the list of people against such tactics and walks away without saying a word.*
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