Ignorant_Savage
02/24/04 02:13 PM
24.197.176.136
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The 4th Sucession War...
Evil Davion plot, or the masterfull plan of the greastest military genius of history. What went right and what went wrong? Could Davion have conquered Liao? If so, why did he stop when he did?
Let's hear some of your thoughts.....
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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cmryan
02/24/04 02:49 PM
4.12.82.110
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Read "The Sword and the Dagger" by Ardath Mayer to read about Maximillian Liao's plan to place a duplicate Hanse Davion on the throne of the Federated Suns. A big part of Hanse Davions argument for the Fourth Sucession War is that tyrants that will do the type of things that Max Liao did to place the doppelganger Hanse Davion on the throne of the Federated Suns must be stopped. So he talked to Katrina Steiner who wanted to liberate the Tamar worlds and they wrapped the sword of the Federated Suns in the fist of the Lyran Commonwealth and on the day of his wedding to Melissa Steiner he started shooting.
Could he have taken the entire Cappellan Confederation? I doubt it. The Com Star interdiction hurt the Federated Suns a lot. So Hanse Davion and Katrina Steiner take what they think they can hold and work on integrating the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth into a single nation.
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Cray
02/24/04 05:04 PM
68.200.107.8
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The 4th SW stopped because of over-stretch by the AFFS and mounting losses to the Combine.
As detailed in FM:CapCon, Hanse planned a rematch with Liao c3035 when the AFFS had caught its breath. However, instead of providing staging bases for the AFFS, the St. Ives Compact threatened war against the FS, and Melissa and Katrina were against the war. Then the Skye Revolt picked up, and the war was called off. When Hanse finally got around to making war again, it was against a politically acceptable foe (the Combine, which had picked up a lot of FS worlds in the 4th SW), and it was against a foe that had had time to prepare for the invasion. Admittedly, the DCMS's counter-attack was pure bluff almost, but it worked...
Weak and lame all around, IMO. Nothing quite went right in BT after the 4th SW. First there was the lame War of 3039, then the lame Clans, now the moderately cool Jihad that should never have happened had things gone right in 3039.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Toontje
02/25/04 05:42 AM
217.123.31.80
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There are arguement to be made that nothing, except the 4th SW went right, and even that did not work out as planned. The fox hoped the CC would collapse after taking that much. He couldn't move further due to the amount of military hardware of the CC increasing per m2, and the FS millitary was thinning due to the need for garrisons.
It stands as a testimony to the will of the capellan people that the CC not only didn't collapse, but even recovered. First the 3039 debacle from FC POV, and afterward the arrival of the clans did help the recovery, but did anyone expect the rebound just after the 4th SW?
Rather to blow up, then.
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WreckingCrew
04/01/04 03:39 PM
158.59.158.112
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The 4th SW was a total joke. The entire war went perfectly for the FS/LC. Tikonov seceeds under Ridzik, the Northwind Highlanders leave Liao (even though some regiments aren''t originally from Northwind); Davion is great in all battles; FWL and DC have their leaders suffer simultaneous strokes decreasing their leadership; all internal opposition within FS/LC is ended with the death of major adversaries Wolf's Dragoons leave at the perfect time for the FS: and on and on.
No war goes perfectly, except maybe the 6 Day War, but the 4th SW went perfectly for Davion from day 1 until they decided to end it. Totally bogus!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Cray
04/01/04 04:39 PM
147.160.1.5
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The 4th SW hardly went perfectly for the FS and LC. The Interdiction is one example, as are the loss of FS planets to the DC. Remember, the Federated Suns' losses to the Combine were the reason Hanse Davion gave to launch the War of 3039.
However, the issues you cited hardly mattered toward the course of the war. What does matter is the change in strategies. The Federated Suns rolled across the Capellan border with a task force just about the same size as the entire CCAF. With the CCAF stuck in the stupidity of 3rd Succession War tactics (where battles were mostly below regimental scale), this was an entirely new kind of war that the CCAF could not fight. And when the first big defeats came in in rapid succession, there was a very logical crash in morale among CCAF troops.
If you want an analogous real world situation, look at the German invasion of France in WWII. The French had better tanks, more tanks, and more troops than the Germans. The Germans won by changed tactics, Blitzkrieg vs. WWI trench warfare. It was a pretty much fated victory. Did it go relatively smoothly for the Germans? Yeah, but they worked for it. And Hanse Davion worked to make the Fourth Succession War turn out smoothly, too.
On the Lyran-Combine front, there was a similar change in tactics for which the Kuritans had not adapted to. Read the Kuritan SB: the Kuritans were a very conservative warrior society. The sudden shift from the "Lyran Thundering Herd" to the "Lyran Assault Mechs with Davion Tactics" was not something the DCMS could adapt to. Also read the War of 3039 SB and the 20 Year Update: Theodore Kurita fought tooth and nail to implement intelligent reforms among the DCMS. In the 4th Succession War, the DCMS was made of samurai morons who got what they deserved.
Quote:
Tikonov seceeds under Ridzik
Not terribly relevant to Davion victory, just convenient and a time saver.
Quote:
the Northwind Highlanders leave Liao
Not terribly relevant to Davion victory, just convenient and a time saver.
Quote:
Davion is great in all battles
No, Davion was adequate in all battles. The AFFS just brought a new level of military firepower (by simple numbers) against the CCAF, which was used to wars of small raids (see: Third Succession War). The Capellans were morons stuck in outdated tactics. When defeat was obvious, they even began throwing themselves away in hopeless battles, because it was better to die in battle than 'fess up to losing some more. You only needed adequate, professional troops in place to deal with threats like that.
Quote:
FWL and DC have their leaders suffer simultaneous strokes decreasing their leadership
Their strokes were hardly simultaneous. Janos Marik's stroke came after the war ended for the FWL. It further post-dated the Andurien Succession and the Emergency Powers Act.
And Takashi was an old-school moron even when he had his full faculties. He fought intelligent reforms by his son all through the 3030s and 3040s, and tried to fight the Clans in the old school Banzai! way - I recommend reading the Blood of Kerensky trilogy to see just what kind of idjit Takashi was.
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all internal opposition within FS/LC is ended with the death of major adversaries
Sure, that's why Skye tried to secede a few years after the war.
As a reviewer for the forthcoming "War of 3039" Sourcebook, I strongly suggest you pick it up. It'll be going into depth on just how smooth the FS/LC alliance wasn't.
Quote:
but the 4th SW went perfectly for Davion from day 1 until they decided to end it
If you prefer to overlook the FS's problems in the war, that's your choice, and you can choose to be angry about it.
However, I recommend taking a better look at Hanse Davion's opponents. The Capellans couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and their awful political system of rule-by-fear meant the leaders (like Ridzik) were all too willing to switch sides when the winner was obvious. The Kuritans were stuck in a samurai mentality unfit for facing foes using modern, combined arms tactics and large numbers of troops. If things went perfectly for the FS, it was because the enemies stunk, and they had been written that way years before the Fourth Succession War was scripted. The Fourth Succession War is the logical outcome of trends established in the Third Succession War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Gangrene
04/01/04 09:13 PM
24.6.228.14
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I don't think Hanse's moves were quite that of a military genius, just better than anything Liao could counter with at the time. Its been a long time since I looked into the fluff around the 4th Succession War, but I thought he stopped because his forces had thinned or because of pressure from the Dracs.
Gangrene
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Cray
04/02/04 06:29 AM
68.200.107.209
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Quote:
I don't think Hanse's moves were quite that of a military genius, just better than anything Liao could counter with at the time. Its been a long time since I looked into the fluff around the 4th Succession War, but I thought he stopped because his forces had thinned or because of pressure from the Dracs.
That's about right, IMO. His "genius" moves were a reasonable diplomatic maneuver (hitching up with the Lyrans) and re-developing large unit tactics, which he figured out by reading some history books. Then he just played a good hand (biggest military in the Inner Sphere, dumb opponents).
Sun Tzu Liao, now. There was a genius. He un-did most of Hanse's damage to the Confederation in 15 years with a LOT less than Hanse had.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (04/02/04 06:35 AM)
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Toontje
04/02/04 10:28 AM
217.123.31.80
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Quote:
Sun Tzu Liao, now. There was a genius. He un-did most of Hanse's damage to the Confederation in 15 years with a LOT less than Hanse had.
Amen to that!
Rather to blow up, then.
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tgsofgc
04/02/04 10:23 PM
67.4.203.69
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I think they were just two seperate bigger than life pulp fiction characters that got dumped into Battletech to support the fiction.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Ignorant_Savage
04/08/04 05:46 AM
24.197.176.136
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haven't had a chance to check the posts in awhile, so when i did, i wanted to make some replies, but luckily, Cray has managed to cover most of my points. so instead, i will say this:
Word
i've got more... but it'll have to wait till tommrow or the next day.
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Mongoose
05/07/04 11:26 PM
68.35.75.250
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Weeeeelllll.......much as I find it a little bit of a stretch to be even be drawing these comparisons (given that you sorta HAVE to drop in "fictional" characters in order to "support the fiction"....Many of our own real life historical military leaders were "larger than life". Alexander the Great, Charlemagne, Gustav Adolphus, Oliver Cromwell, George Washington, etc... They all have a mythos. Why would the politcal and military leaders of the BattleTech universe be any different?
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Toontje
05/08/04 06:07 AM
82.73.138.10
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Those RL leaders you named are all in the past, same with churchil etc. The closest to a living legend is Tatcher, the Iron Lady.
Anyone remembered for more than 50 years later takes on legendary proportions, and becomes larger than life. Attila another one, Ceasar, Constantine, Stalin. Kerensky in BT. But for a good story, they are required. Current-day BT notable citizen are Victor S-D and Sun-Tzu, and while Victor seems more to be like a real leader, he will not be remembered, as he did not do much notable legendary. Sun-Tzu otoh restored a nation from ruins reversing its fortunes without any controverse.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Thor_Mech
05/10/04 03:32 PM
199.239.45.2
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According to Hanse Davion, the only reason he launched agaist the CapCom was to "liberate the people". Despite that, he was considered a military genius until his death. Even his opponents admired his military ability.
"Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills"
- Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard
Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
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cs3473
05/25/04 01:47 PM
207.87.158.87
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Quote:
However, I recommend taking a better look at Hanse Davion's opponents. The Capellans couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and their awful political system of rule-by-fear meant the leaders (like Ridzik) were all too willing to switch sides when the winner was obvious. The Kuritans were stuck in a samurai mentality unfit for facing foes using modern, combined arms tactics and large numbers of troops. If things went perfectly for the FS, it was because the enemies stunk, and they had been written that way years before the Fourth Succession War was scripted. The Fourth Succession War is the logical outcome of trends established in the Third Succession War.
Yeah, what does it say about the Kurita Military in the 4th War when, given the opportunity to romp their way through the Draconis March, the soldiers of the Galedon Regulars preferred to hunt down the remnants of Wolf's Dragoons? Yes, I realize that the Regulars were trying to avenge Samsonov's death, but when opportunity knocks, you gotta take it...
Cray, in regards to Sun Tzu Liao, while I am not a fan of the Slap-Happy Cappies, I have to give Sun Tzu his props as the man can lead.
This game is in dire need of a third dice...
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Cray
05/25/04 03:39 PM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
Cray, in regards to Sun Tzu Liao, while I am not a fan of the Slap-Happy Cappies, I have to give Sun Tzu his props as the man can lead.
He can indeed. He's pretty much undone all of Hanse Davion's work against the Capellans, and he started with far less. I've got an alternate history floating around here where the Capellans get a Sun Tzu-caliber leader 25 years earlier - it's interesting to think what Sunny might've done if he'd been born sooner.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Hellfire_for_Hire
06/04/04 02:42 PM
206.212.15.100
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The biggest problem I have with the whole 4th Succession War is that even with the problems the FS and LC have, it still works out for them completely. If the revolutionary tactics the FS and LC use can be logically explained, that's one thing (even if veteran CC units still crumble like a house of cards). But some of the other events work just right for the "Good Guys".
Inderdiction? No problem, we'll just whip out this handy-dandy Black Box.
Maximillian going to do something creative? Not to worry, he's conveniently insane and 007...er, I mean Justin Xiang... is there to guide him along.
Afraid of the DC or FWL? Don't be, the DC will be tied up with an irrational war against Wolf's Dragoons and the FWL will do absoluetly nothing.
You even have ad hoc militia units taking down the cream of the crop in the Death Commandos vs the 1st Kathil Uhlans. It's stuff like this that just makes the whole 4th Succession War kind of hokey in my opinion. But I could even deal with that kind of stuff if it was presented well, instead of the way it was with the Warrior Trilogy.
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JStallion
06/04/04 06:37 PM
69.244.182.44
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Quote:
Inderdiction? No problem, we'll just whip out this handy-dandy Black Box.
Maximillian going to do something creative? Not to worry, he's conveniently insane and 007...er, I mean Justin Xiang... is there to guide him along.
Afraid of the DC or FWL? Don't be, the DC will be tied up with an irrational war against Wolf's Dragoons and the FWL will do absoluetly nothing.
if u were the ruler of the biggest empire in the universe and had enemies at all borders you wouldn't worry? its not like they knew the DC would spend most of their time attempting to defeat the dragoons, the DC was still very formidable. FWL sat on its @$$ but who knew theyd stay that way? maxamillian's plan almost worked even and the black box only worked to a limited level; there were plenty of citizens who were a little more than upset because of the interdiction and that alone would be reason enough to piss them off about combining the 2 empires. You cant just say "not to worry" because if u were hanse davion youd have much bigger borders to defend than any other empire in the Inner Sphere and wouldn't know what all of them were doing. Just because you can read the novels and find out whats going on doesnt mean Hanse can 
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