Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Silverclaw Accords
#85027 - 02/26/04 08:18 PM (129.138.30.194)
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This is something that I am working on. I am not sure how it will come out on the message board, however if you copy/paste it into notepad or MS word it should come out fine if you set the font size to 11.
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1 Whereas the conduct of emperors and their troops on the planet of Neveron has been
2 constantly decaying, and whereas unrestricted warfare is becoming commonplace, and
3 whereas the above mentioned have the potential to one day endanger the Neveron
4 economy in ways which include, but are not limited to, the fledgling mech industry and
5 vehicle industry, we the undersigned do hereby agree to the following:
6
7 1.0.0 Conduct of Troops in the Field
8 1.1.1 Civilian Structures in Combat
9 No commander shall order his troops to fire upon civilian Residential or Commercial
10 structures unless enemy troops are taking shelter within said structures. Troops receiving
11 orders to fire upon civilian Residential or Commercial structures are under no obligation
12 to follow those orders. Any force which fails to comply with this provision forfeits any
13 protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 5 Nev Years.
14
15 1.1.2 Civilian Structures out of Combat
16 A commander who captures an enemy city shall for no reason institute a scorched earth
17 policy and raze the city to the ground. The most any commander may do is torch buildings
18 of direct military significance such as repair facilities and factories. Any force which fails to
19 comply with this provision forfeits any protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a
20 period of no less then 5 Nev Years.
21
22 2.0.0 Engagement of Empires in War:
23 2.1.1 Empires of the Same Level
24 When two empires of roughly equal size are in military conflict then as soon as one becomes
25 restricted as a result of enemy action a cease fire is to be offered. The defender is to always
26 have the first option to enlarge the conflict by pulling in allies, but once (s)he has done so the
27 aggressor may pull in 1 empire of equal or lesser strength into the conflict as well. The
28 aggressor is defined as the first person to launch an attack in the conflict. A single conflict
29 shall be defined as fighting which has had no break in it for a period of more then 50
30 nevdays. Any force which fails to comply with this provision forfeits any protection granted
31 by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 5 Nev Years.
32
33 2.1.2 Empires of Different Level
34 An Empire may not engage with war against an Empire of lower level unless first attacked.
35 When Empires of lower level engage in conflict with an Empire of higher level they shall not
36 engage in the conflict with empires which contain a total of more battle value then an empire
37 with a 1:1 BV:Pop ratio would contain had it just reached the level of the larger Empire being
38 attacked. The defender has the first option to call in reinforcements, as outlined in section
39 2.1.1. The moment any empire in the conflict becomes restricted it must be offered a cease
40 fire. Any force which fails to comply with this provision forfeits any protection granted by
41 the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 5 Nev Years.
42
43 2.1.3 Use of Mercenaries
44 An empire who hires a mercenary force is responsible for the conduct of that force.
45 Mercenary commanders are protected by the Silverclaw Accords so long as they follow
46 the provisions contained herein. Should a mercenary commander fail to comply with the
47 provisions contained herein then that mercenary force, or the empire which hired the force,
48 or both, at the judgment of the one who was wronged by the mercenary force shall forfeit
49 any protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less 50 then 5 Nev
50 Years.
51
52 2.2.1 Use of Nukes
53 No empire shall, for any reason, use a nuclear device of any kind on a civilian target. In
54 regards to military targets, meaning zones which do not contain any Residential or
55 Commercial buildings, may be targeted with a nuke. If any structures are present in a zone
56 then a commander shall have a force inspect the zone prior to authorizing the nuclear strike.
57 No commander shall build civilian buildings in a zone with the intention of using them to
58 shield military infrastructure from a nuclear strike. If upon inspection of a zone prior to a
59 nuclear strike a token number of civilians are discovered in the area then a nuclear strike is
60 still permitted. A ‘token’ number of civilians shall be defined as a zone containing less then
61 25% residential buildings.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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AndrewCrisp
Sergeant
Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85033 - 02/26/04 08:52 PM (156.34.211.120)
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Very nice. I do have some concerns and suggestions.
My last war involved a "Mutual Defense Pact" I had drafted and signed with an unfactioned empire, and deals, in some ways, with circumstances similar to those outlined under Article 2.1.2. of your Silverclaw Accords. Article IV, section 2 of the Pact stated "In the event of a Declaration of War and subsequent invasion, both Nations will mobilize [specified forces] to strike the Aggressor at the point of its attack." The spirit of this section was for an ally to be brought in long enough to rout the invading force and reclaim territory lost to the invader. Section 4 limited the ally's involvement to lands contested, and specifically denied attacks on an invader's home territory unless the invader renewed his assault or refused terms of surrender.
(The Pact in question is no longer valid - its terms have been nullified by the war mentioned above, at great cost to both myself and my once and future ally, but as a piece of Nev-legal history it might still be useful. I can PM a copy of the Pact to you for your consideration.)
Perhaps an addendum could be made to 2.1.2 limiting allies (especially larger allies) when brought in to the war on the side of a smaller empire to defensive engagements (repelling an invader) with further escalation of the war (crossing over into the home territory of the invader) being punishable under the Accords.
Another part which needs to be addressed would be means of third-party arbitration and even the formation of ad-hoc tribunals to investigate and make judgements on percieved violations of the Accords, so that we don't wind up in a "he said she said" situation. (Article 3 perhaps?)
Just some thoughts on the matter.
Andrew
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"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: AndrewCrisp]
#85034 - 02/26/04 08:59 PM (129.138.30.194)
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Actually I am not finished with it yet. I intend to add in sections including restrictions on terms of surrender and the like. One of them was going to be 3rd party arribation. Another was going to be what commanders can and cannot do to empires who have forfited their right to protection to the Silverclaw Accords. That is just all I had time to write atm.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Rex_Regis
Sergeant
Reged: 06/06/03
Posts: 129
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85088 - 02/27/04 05:17 AM (24.146.1.128)
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I find this interesting still reading some of it lol But sounds kewl so far. -Wesley
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Lurker
Recruit
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85144 - 02/27/04 12:46 PM (216.232.105.174)
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Unfortunately, after reading through other posts about how very few players are honorable and constantly are involved in "dis-honorable" gang-banging attacks ( I really dislike that term by the way ), one has to question whether or not the accords would even be read, used or in any way acted upon.
Not to say it's not a noble idea, just to say that there is a long way between a dream and a reality Kit. Still, keep up the diplomatic work.
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"Evil will always prevail, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
Survival is the ultimate ideology
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Lurker]
#85147 - 02/27/04 01:03 PM (129.138.30.194)
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I don't need to have every player put their name on this, I just need enough players who are sick and tired of what is going on to be willing to hold themselves to this conduct, and be willing to punnish those who deviate from it. Like I said, it is not finished yet, it is just a pain to write in that style so I am taking a break.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Lines 63-88, Use of Spys
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85152 - 02/27/04 01:29 PM (129.138.30.194)
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63
64 2.3.1 Acceptable Uses of Spies
65 While the use of informants and spies is without a doubt a useful tool for any military
66 operation the use of spies and informants shall hereby be limited to a role which does not
67 cause undo harm to civilian populations or direct harm to military units. As such the use of
68 spies and informants shall be condoned while their roles are limited to the gathering of Intel.
69 This includes using spies to locate military targets such as mechs, factories, and repair
70 facilities.
71
72 2.3.2 Forbidden Uses of Spies
73 For no reason shall any spy take actions that would result in the razing of a city, the
74 movement of troops, the slaughter of defending troops, or the removal of funds or material
75 from an empire. Any spy being given such orders is under no obligation to follow the orders
76 An emperor is responsible for the actions taken by his spies. Should a spy undertake any of
77 the above mentioned actions, or any action not expressly outlined as acceptable as in section
78 2.3.1 then the force who is utilizing the spy is no longer granted protection by the Silverclaw
79 Accords for a period of no less then 10 Nev Years. In the event that the empire who
80 utilized the spy is unknown, then any empire trying to exploit the spy’s actions shall forfit
81 any protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 10 Nev Years.
82 In the even that the spy is discovered who has undertaken these actions owns an empire then
83 any and all empires owned by the spy shall forfeit any protection granted by the Silverclaw
84 accords for a period of no less then 10 Nev Years. Any commander who is found to have
85 framed or attempted to frame another commander for the actions forbidden in this section
86 shall forfeit all protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then
87 15 Nev years, and the framed commander shall be granted protection under the Silverclaw
88 Accords once again.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Tenshi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/27/03
Posts: 259
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85155 - 02/27/04 01:43 PM (24.196.181.92)
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Well, I like it. If you need help writing it my fiancee offers her help, she was in Model U.N. and really likes writing stuff in "resolution format". It's all above my head, but reading through it I'll be willing to wager I'm going to put my name down here once it's done. Oh, and Andrew, nice B5 quote, hehe.
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Mazer
Colonel
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 1622
Loc: Margaritaville ;)
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85158 - 02/27/04 02:00 PM (66.20.28.21)
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Looks really promising if people will agree to follow it, you've got my support 
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Struck, sir? I have not yet begun to fight! - John Paul Jones
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Wolfhound
Recruit
Reged: 09/03/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Illinois
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Mazer]
#85178 - 02/27/04 03:40 PM (144.228.155.18)
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I agree with Mazer. The problem is going to be getting the other players to follow it, and also get the ones that do follow it to enforce it. You can count me in on it though.
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Wolfhound
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Flameseeker
Major
Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Wolfhound]
#85179 - 02/27/04 03:49 PM (66.82.9.31)
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Signed by Searo.
Good job!
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Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Flameseeker]
#85269 - 02/28/04 06:16 AM (172.176.40.85)
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That looks all very nice, but I am pretty sure you will never get enough people to enforce it. Simply because those that are big enough to matter and would willingly support it are for the most part builders and don't want to get involved in LW by enforcing some sort of accords. And those that are big enough and interested enough in LW would never enforce somehing like this regrettably.
Lata
Krait
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Jakal
Newbie
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 22
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85301 - 02/28/04 02:24 PM (69.47.130.103)
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Seems to me like a great idea but if nobody enforces it then it will become useless. You'd need something like the United Nations that could enforce the rules. You'd have to form somekind of ruling committe and also a military force for that organization. Its a great idea but it'll take a lot of work.
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Honor's only dead if we let it die.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Lines 89-146
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85314 - 02/28/04 04:17 PM (129.138.30.194)
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I feel to mention that these are far from done, and as such are open to suggestions and the like. Also, the format will probably be changed for the final document and sections shuffled around/combined/deleted depending on where they seem to fit best once I am finished.
******
89
90 3.0.0 Responsibility within the Chain of Command
91 3.1.1 Definition of a Force
92 A single force in a conflict shall be defined as all empires involved in a single side in a
93 conflict, regardless of goals. Empires will be considered to be on the same side, regardless
94 of proclaimed allegiances, should they be cooperating in a conflict regardless of individual
95 goals. In any given conflict it is possible for there to be more then two forces involved so
96 long as each force proclaims its own sovereignty upon entering a conflict or at the moment
97 it splinters away from an already established force. This proclamation shall take precedence
98 over any other method of determining what constitutes a single force.
99
100 3.2.1 Responsibity of a Commander in Chief
101 In any given conflict the Commander in Chief shall be assumed to be the leaders of the
102 two empires which started the conflict unless they officially give up this responsibility
103 to another individual. The Commander in Chief has ultimate responsibility for any actions
104 taken by forces under his command during a conflict and shall share any punishment for
105 breaches to the sections contained herein unless (s)he reports and punishes the breach
106 as soon as (s)he is made aware of it. The Commanders in Chief from both sides in a
107 conflict have the power to call a Cease Fire which will be binding to all empires involved.
108 A Commander who issues an order which would breach any provision of the Silverclaw
109 Accords is subject to punishment as if he has committed the act, regardless of if the order
110 were actually carried out. If a commander is planning a large scale war, such as a faction
111 war then he shall ensure that sections 2.1.1, 2.1.2, and 2.1.3 are complied with or (s)he shall
112 share the punishment of any breaches that occur in regards to these sections.
113
114 3.2.2 Responsibility of Second in Command
115 In the event that a Commander in Chief is unavailable then the second in command shall
116 have all the powers of the Commander in Chief. In the event that no official second in
117 command was appointed, then the individual who is deemed most able to handle the
118 position shall be appointed. In the absence of the Commander in Chief the Second in
119 Command shall be considered the Commander in Chief.
120
121 3.2.3 Responsibility of Commanders
122 The Commander of an empire is ultimately responsible for the actions of his troops.
123 As such any commander may refuse to carry out ANY order he is given if (s)he has
124 a moral objection to it. If a commander is given an order which breaches the Silverclaw
125 Accords then (s)he may not be forced to follow the order for any reason, and commanders
126 receiving such orders are encouraged to report the order for investigation. A commander
127 who accepts an order which breaches the Silverclaw Accords is subject to punishment
128 based off of which provision was breached.
129
130 3.2.4 Responsibility of Battle Players
131 A battle player takes responsibility for his actions and as such is under no obligation to
132 follow any order which breaches the Silverclaw Accords. Any such order is encouraged to
133 be reported so an investigation can be conducted. Should a Battle Player be found to be
134 attempting to frame an Empire Commander then any and all empires owned by the Battle
135 Player forfeit any protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then
136 15 Nev Years. In addition, depending on actions taken by the Battle Player, (s)he may also
137 be charged with breaching section 2.3.2 of the Silverclaw Accords as well.
138
139 3.3.1 Allies Responsibility
140 Allies of either side are permitted to provide aid in a conflict in any manner they choose that
141 does not involve military force unless they are invited. This includes the holding of cities
142 other such actions. An exception to this is that the allies of a defender may enter a conflict
143 without invitation, however the Attacking force may respond to this in the same manner as
144 if the defender had invited them. Upon entering the conflict allies are considered to have
145 the force they entered in support of henceforth until the end of the conflict.
146
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Krait]
#85318 - 02/28/04 04:25 PM (129.138.30.194)
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Well, there are several possibilities for enforcement. One possibility would be the creation of a neutral faction which would enforce the agreement. If enough people show intrest in this agreement and there are enough who would be willing to enforce it then I would consider creating such a faction once my main hits level 7. I would also consider joining such a faction were it created.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85328 - 02/28/04 05:07 PM (172.178.66.153)
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I just wonder how exactly a Faction led by a lvl7 wants to enforce something on offesive lvl8s and above that are geared 100% towards war and have a ton of cronies backing them up?
Without a few Superpowers backing this up it won't get anywhere I am afraid.
Lata
Krait
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Krait]
#85329 - 02/28/04 05:16 PM (129.138.30.194)
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Change takes time Krait. And enforcement doesn't make as much of a difference if there are enough people simply SUPPORTING it. The document is written such that if you breach it you are not protected by it. The moment that level 8 that is geared 100% toward LW breaches the document it is no longer protected BY it. That means that anyone who wanted to could go an kill it. And don't tell me it is impossible to gaing bang a level 8 LW empire because any empire can be gang banged.
I never said that this would fix every problem imediately, but with enough people who believe in it things generally work themselves out. Let me finish the document before you start telling reasons why it won't work, k?
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Flameseeker
Major
Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85337 - 02/28/04 06:03 PM (66.82.9.35)
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I signed the treaty, but I don't think it will work.
We would need at least HoC, Ryu, or Gen to agree to this, which will never happen. Even if, say, Gen agrees, do you think it could enforce the policy over HoC? Do you think they would want to bring HoC down on their heads because a level 3 HoC hit an unfactioned level 2?
I don't see how it will work. It's a great plan, idea, thingy, etc...and I'm glad I agreed to it, but it still isn't gonna work.
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Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires
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AndrewCrisp
Sergeant
Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Flameseeker]
#85343 - 02/28/04 07:33 PM (156.34.220.225)
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Hm. Concerning enforcement, how's this as an idea:
We set up a neutral faction such as what Kit Fox describes (call it the Neveron Security Council unless someone thinks up a better name), and have its membership fixed at 19 members, which should be transferred from one of each of the larger factions that currently exists on Neveron (this should ensure that we get some vets or at least some experienced players into the NSC, but DOES run the risk of potential conflicts of interest or espionage on the NSC itself).
The NSC's primary responsibility would be to investigate any breaches of the Silverclaw Accords and render decisions by vote of the member empires. While the NSC probably would not have enough firepower to enforce military decisions (such as physically entering a combat zone and seperating combatants), it can "draft" empires - mercenaries probably to avoid conflict of interest issues - into coalitions to carry out NSC decisions. This would help to ensure that enough firepower is brought to bear when needed. NSC members should maintain some sensor-heavy forces which can be used as investigation teams to drop into areas, look around, and report back - attacking such investigation teams would be considered a violation of NSC's immunity from attack (see below). NSC members might employ espionage under the terms of the Accords also to obtain information.
NSC members would be legally immune to attack from other nations, and may not engage in land transfers or offensive wars of their own. Attacks on NSC members would be dealt with as any faction would deal with attacks, but would end once the attacking force was destroyed. Nations that attack the NSC would be in violation of the Accords, with punishments to be determined by the NSC. Pirate attacks, of course, are the only exception, and would also serve as a means of keeping the NSC forces finely honed for the day when they can bear the brunt of enforcement and peacekeeping on their own with minimal or no support from the planetary community.
Tribunals started by the NSC should be as transparent as possible, to prevent accusations of unfairness. I'm not sure what mechanism should be used for gathering information from witnesses, or how appeals should be dealt with, but I'm sure some people here can think of some good ideas.
NSC should not accept donations from member nations after its formation, to prevent the possibility of corruption.
That's all from me for now. Feel free to develop this as you see fit.
Andrew
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"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: AndrewCrisp]
#85374 - 02/29/04 02:49 AM (172.179.194.71)
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And how exactly would this body force something onto HoC? The enforcer (and probably his faction too) would be gangbanged to hell and back by the other Hoccies. And in this case HoC would actually have a good reason for a fight for once.
Really, accords are all well and nice, but they only work when they are actively backed by a majority of the powers that be.
And that will never happen for the reasons stated above.
Lata
Krait
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Krait]
#85423 - 02/29/04 12:41 PM (129.138.30.194)
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And what would happen if, say, the R factions backed the accords? Everyone knows that if a war were to happen between R and HoC faction there would be a lot of losses on BOTH sides. I won't even speculate on who would 'win' but you and I both know, Krait, that unlike Kizo the people in the R factions are competent.
And I find it interesting that you say HoC would resist this so viciously. Is this because they are unable to win wars without gang banging, or because they are simply unwilling to do so? Has HoC changed so very much that all of their feared military power comes from the fact that they gang bang you into oblivion? I would hope not because that would mean that HoC is doing the things that everyone was pissed at Kizo for doing, and one of the main reasons pretty much everyone on Neveron piled onto Kizo so quickly.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Flameseeker
Major
Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85458 - 02/29/04 05:44 PM (66.82.9.30)
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The Kizo war is proof that HoC hates being told what to do.
There are 4 major powers on Nev right now- Gen, HoC, Ryu, and everyone else. Gen cannot take HoC, HoC cannot take Ryu, and everyone else can't take anyone, because there's no leadership.
Kizo used to be the "everyone else" pretty much, or at least a large majority of that group.
Think about. Could HoC defend the accords from Gen and Ryu? No. Would HoC even care? No. Now interchange those names, it's still the same thing. Could Ryu defend the accords from Gen and HoC...etc....
My point is that it's a very good idea, but there's no way to execute it.
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Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Flameseeker]
#85464 - 02/29/04 07:42 PM (129.138.30.194)
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You might be surprised. I was talking to gunner in chat and he said something that after some thought I think is actually true. He said that there are a whole bunch of people in Neveron who want LW to be less about gang bangs where the person who can bring in one more empire wins. The reason you don't hear from them very often, however, is because we tend to be a more quiet bunch. Depending on how much of us quiet people there are something like this could very well work. Even if one or a few of the major alliences don't offically like it, if enough of their members do then it ammounts to the same thing. And if a few big guys end up trying to stop it from happening then they get killed.
Too often people think that really large empires are invincable. That is untrue, they are merely very hard to kill. Ironically they are less likely to fight to the very end because they are a huge time and or money investment. I have been in a few wars where a bunch of little empires attacked one large one. In none of the cases did we have more BV or better units then the large empire, but the large empire was fighting a loosing war just the same.
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The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Optimus_Prime
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/25/02
Posts: 366
Loc: Ashland, Wisconsin, US
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85479 - 02/29/04 09:28 PM (65.73.70.63)
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lol didn't even notice this thread intel now 
But I also endorse this.  .
....now i'll go hide in my corner again 
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http://2845.mechnex.net
The Cybrids are coming, will you be ready?
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drachillix
Corporal
Reged: 09/14/03
Posts: 98
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85491 - 02/29/04 10:13 PM (24.127.147.7)
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Quote:
Well, there are several possibilities for enforcement. One possibility would be the creation of a neutral faction which would enforce the agreement. If enough people show intrest in this agreement and there are enough who would be willing to enforce it then I would consider creating such a faction once my main hits level 7. I would also consider joining such a faction were it created.
Sounds like you are talking about what I would call a "federation" an alliance of empires so to speak. Create another layer of alliances that only FL's can join to unite various factions under one banner. It could maintain combat forces, repair facilities and or production facilities to support its member nations, much like many FL's do now but spreading the wealth a little further. It would take a very special type of player to occupy such a position without making a mess of things but over time a well intentioned player could easily make membership in such a faction something difficult to survive without.
With a few tools like selective taxation to levy "fines" of sorts against member nations that do not comply with council decisions. Properly coded such a thing could be set up to only trigger when the appropriate number of council members choose to enforce it. Maybe a separate forum/chat channel where council meetings are held.
I'm just kinda thinking out loud here, ther would obviously be some serious coding to implement something like this and the potential for abuse woud be ugly. Mechanisms for forcing a player out of the leadership position "impeachment" if you will would need to be created, etc, etc.
Politics would also become serious business in a hurry
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Optimus_Prime]
#85515 - 02/29/04 11:56 PM (129.138.30.194)
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Aw... don't hide!
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85543 - 03/01/04 02:13 AM (172.178.203.29)
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'Too often people think that really large empires are invincable. That is untrue, they are merely very hard to kill.'
They are not even THAT hard to kill. But the problem is NOT that anyone thinks large empires are hard to kill. The problem is that the dozen(s) LW empires it has as buddies are virtually impossible to kill.
That is also pretty much why the high level Kizos died so easily and also why WoB seems to be struggling. No lower-level LW empire support. That support is possibly even more important than the big empires own defenses.
And yes there are MANY people that don't want LW to be vicious. The problem is that most of those don't want to LW at all. And enforcing accords like these would inevitably lead to LW. Hence they don't want to enfoce it.
Also enforcing this would require people to actually fight against other LWers, and while they never admit it, most people want to fight sheep, not other wolves.
Also about gangbangs, most of the people that are anti-gangbang are builders. The few LWers that are anti-gangbang also oppose defensive gangbangs, they just want pure 1on1s so their precious DP mechs can beat the snot outta their helpless target (cough Kizo cough)
Imho the only 'fair' way to go about it is that the defender is allowed to call in as much help as he wants but the attacker is on his own as long as his homezones aren't hit.
I don't know what your accords say about that because I didn't bother to read them (sorry but I am 99% sure something like that will never work but I will be glad if you prove me wrong). But that is he only way I could ever see LW as 'civilized'.
Lata
Krait
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Jakal
Newbie
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 22
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Re: Silverclaw Accords
[Re: Krait]
#85650 - 03/01/04 06:14 PM (69.47.130.103)
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Where does it say we can't try? I think many of the ideas for this concepts implementation have promise. If you dont take the first step then you'll never get anywhere. Kit if you do indeed form a faction dedicated to enforcing these rules then I would most certainly be interested in joining up. You should post a message on the boards for applicants if you're going to do it because i think the silent majority of people would be behind this idea.
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Honor's only dead if we let it die.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Lines 146-224
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85662 - 03/01/04 07:01 PM (129.138.30.194)
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146
147 4.0.0 Negotiations
148 4.1.1 Cease Fires
149 A Cease Fire is merely an agreed temporary end to hostilities while an official agreement
150 can be worked out. The moment any empire is restricted during a war it is to be offered a
151 cease fire. Any empire being offered a cease fire has the right to refuse it, however upon
152 doing so empire which offered the cease fire is under no obligation to offer another one
153 until it suits the commander of that empire. There are never to be terms to a cease fire.
154 A cease fire shall last for no less then 20 Nev days, and no longer then 40 Nev days. A
155 cease fire requires the express agreement of both sides involved, and may be extended with
156 the express agreement of both sides involved. Should large numbers of troops be involved
157 in the conflict which will be subject to the cease fire, there shall be a period of 2 Nev days
156 for both commanders to contact all involved and bring attacks to a halt. After this 2 Nev
157 Day time the cease fire shall go into effect for the determined amount of time. Any
158 damage done to an opposing force while a cease fire is in effect shall be compensated
159 once hostilities are ended or the empire involved in the breach as well as his Commander in
160 Chief shall loose protection under the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 1 Nev
161 year, and potentially more depending on the severity of the breach.
162
163 4.1.2 Surrender Terms
164 In the event that one force surrenders then demanded compensation of the defeated force
165 may not be more than the one and a half times the total expenses incurred during the war. 166 This includes money spent on repairs, money spent on attacks, money spent on supplies,
167 money spent on replacement units, and damage to cities that were held by the victorious
168 side before the conflict broke out. This does not include DP used during the conflict. Nev
169 cash may demanded for compensation or the surrendering of cities, who’s value in Nev cash
170 shall be determined at seventy five percent of the value of the buildings present in the
171 city(s) to be handed over. Things that may not be demanded are the destruction of unit(s)
172 or DP. In the event that the defeated side wishes to use DP in order to pay compensation of
173 their own accord, then the value of 1 DP shall be determined by its current mean market
174 value. Once a surrender is accepted neither side shall engage in hostilities with the other
175 for a period of at least 5 Nev years or the force which begun the hostilities shall forfeit
176 any protection granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 3 Nev years
177 if compensation is not paid.
178
179 4.1.3 Mutual Cession of Hostilities
180 In the event that both Commanders in Chief for the forces involved in a conflict wish to end
181 the war and neither side wishes to surrender then they may reach their own agreement. In
182 the event that one or both sides are to pay compensation then the amount of compensation
183 shall not exceed the total expenses incurred during the war including money spent on repair,
184 money spent on attacks, and money spent on replacement units. This does not include DP
185 used during the conflict. Payment may be made as in section 4.1.2. As with section 4.2.1
186 once hostilities are ended neither side shall start hostilities with the other side for a period
187 of at least 5 Nev years or the force which begun the hostilities shall forfeit any protection
188 granted by the Silverclaw Accords for a period of no less then 3 Nev years if compensation
189 is not paid.
190
191 4.2.1 Third Party Mediation of Negotiations
192 In the event that both sides involved in a conflict are unable to reach an agreement on the
193 terms of a surrender or on the amount of compensation to be paid they may select a third
194 uninvolved party to mediate negotiations and/or write up the terms for surrender as well as
195 determination of the amount of compensation due. Both commanders must agree upon the
196 involvement of the third party, and if this third party is to draft up terms for surrender or
197 determine the amount of compensation due then both sides agree to abide by the third
198 parties judgment. In the event that that both parties cannot agree on a third party to mediate
199 they may both suggest up to 5 (five) candidates, with one of those being selected for
200 the job in some random manner.
201
202 5.0.0 Membership
203 5.1.1 Initial Membership
204 All nations which sign the Silverclaw Accords before the treaty goes into effect shall be
205 granted the full protection of the Silverclaw Accords and agree to follow the provisions
206 contained herein.
207
208 5.1.2 Non Members and Entrance of New Membership
209 Nations which have not or have yet to join the Silverclaw Accords are protected by none of
210 the sections contained herein. Any nonmember nation which wishes to be a part of the
211 Silverclaw Accords and has not been a member nation of the Accords previously may
212 enter into the Silverclaw Accords at any time during which the nation is not at war by
213 making a public announcement. Protection for new members shall go into effect ten
214 Nev days after the announcement was made.
215
216 5.1.3 Re-joining Membership
217 Nations who were previously members of the Silverclaw Accords and left of their own
218 accord may rejoin provided that the following conditions are met. First, they must not
219 currently be at war nor have been in a war for the past Nev month. Second, a period of
220 15 Nev years must have passed since they left. Third, they must have the support of no less
221 than ten nations which are currently members. Fourth, a public announcement must be
222 made. Protection for rejoining members shall go into effect ten Nev days after the
223 announcement was made.
224
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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neko
Corporal
Reged: 12/12/03
Posts: 138
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Re: Lines 146-224
[Re: Kit_fox]
#86358 - 03/07/04 04:06 PM (156.34.212.3)
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Kit, count me in
i think we should include the possibility of a mutually agreed upon trial by combat, similar to that of the clans.
the procedure would be as follows:
both empires send confirmation to a member of the scurity council, or some other neutral party declaring their intentions for a trial by combat.
in their declarations of intent, each empire names their intended prize. ('prize' = zones)
the security council member or neutral party will then inform each party of the other's intended prize, and each party is to give a full listing of repair facilities and TCs in the intended zones, and an estimated cf value of each building type in those zones
the security council member or neutral party will then compare the value of each party's intended zones, and develop a ratio to be used in determining the bv each side can use in the trial.
i.e. if the ratio of attacker/defender intended zones' value is 2:1 then the ratio of attacker/defender bv will be 1:2
once the ratio has been determined, the defender chooses their defending force, adds up the bv of the units, and notifies the neutral party of the total bv.
the neutral party will then determine the total bv to be used by the attacker in the trial. the attacker may use any amount of bv totalling not more than 5 percent higher than that determined by the neutral party.
additionally, either side may use battleplayers as they see fit
obviously, the return of any captured zones would be a required part of either party's intended prize, and thus must be factored into the equations determining the value of the prize.
the battle itself could be fought in regular lw in a zone belonging to the neutral party with a "referee" unit to keep an eye on the battle until either side runs out of units, or in a challenge arena (do challenge arenas still have bv limits like regular arenas?)
this is just a little brain fart of mine, i like the idea of settling matters of war in honorable combat.
yes, i am a builder, but i plan to eventually become a LW capable empire, fighting honorable battles against worthy opponents and in defense of those smaller than myself. of course, this will be after i finally exact vengeance on Yellow Tang for utterly destroying my primary empire.
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When the winds of change blow hard enough, it's best not to piss into the wind.
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