Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Looking for Suggestions
#85664 - 03/01/04 07:07 PM (129.138.30.194)
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I am looking to find out what people think would be the best way to support the Silverclaw Accords before I write the enforcement clause. Several things suggested would be the creation of a new faction, some sort of inherent protection, and simply taking people's word on good faith.
I was thinking something along some form of councle that would have membership from a fair number of factions that would be something allong the lines of the UN, though with perhaps a bit more power, which would make sure nobody breached the accords.
However I am open to other ideas. I will probably take the ones that seem to be the 'best' ideas and then run a poll on em and use the results of the poll to decide which one is chosen.
This thread is open to everyone, even people who don't think it will work or even don't want it to. Small empires, big empires, doesn't really matter. Post ideas here.
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The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85726 - 03/02/04 01:26 AM (172.178.5.6)
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Well the only way I could see it work is a coalition of factions with multiple strong LWers who are willing to risk their empires to enforce these accords. The first thing you need to enforce them is a viable FORCE.
And like I said I don't think you will find it, but I wish you all the luck in the world and would be very glad if you prove me wrong.
Lata
Krait
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Raffi
Recruit
Reged: 03/11/03
Posts: 42
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85728 - 03/02/04 02:54 AM (66.169.63.150)
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For something like this to work it would need ratified by the major powers/leaders in the game and have their support.
Each of the large alliances(groups of 5 factions or more) could each elect a representative, these groups would have permanent seats. Once each has been in place and the first meeting is called I would suggest this group then make nominations for the faction reps that would fill the council.(11 members sounds like a good number to me)
Once the nominations are in place every faction in Neveron (Not being a member of the permanent group) gets 1 vote for the remaining seats. These seats should have a term, so that other factions have chance to serve.
The structure of the council can then be established by these 11, as far as chairmen and terms of office. I would like to see a website set up for periodic minutes and updates, and votes made public record there to establish re election of those who serve well.
With that group of people involved it should be much easier to enforce the Accords, as most of the larger groups are very capable of policing themselves(espec if going against it would make one of there own look bad) and we all know that with them as support the smaller factions would be foolish to commit war crimes.
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'The great turning point in history is when all will stand with one great voice and say...."Screw it, why bother" Then a lone voice from the silent darkness replies... "Gotcha"!
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AndrewCrisp
Sergeant
Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Raffi]
#85811 - 03/02/04 03:14 PM (156.34.209.111)
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Well, a council would help with making decisions, but we will need a seperate and impartial force to do the actual job of enforcing council decisions and investigating breaches of the accords.
A "peacekeeping" faction would go a long way towards an independant force that would answer to the Council but in turn be able to judge members of the Council itself.
I would suggest that each of the major alliances contribute one empire, somewhere between level 6 and level 9 in size, to this new faction - candidate empires should have a good BV/population ratio.
There should be some set minimum equipment lists for what this faction would contain when it starts off, so as to insure having the right capacity to enforce decisions. In terms of funds, I'd recommend a starting balance of N$10 billion (perhaps contracted by a ONE TIME ONLY donation of nevcash from the major alliances). In terms of repair facilities, perhaps at least 20 level 1's, 10 level 2's , and 2-5 level 3's in various locations across Neveron, to insure that repair and resupply capacity exists for the peacekeeper forces Nev-wide. I'll leave it to the skilled LWers to suggest force makeup, but it should be capable of handling at least three tasks, simultaneously if need be:
1. Investigation. Sensor-heavy forces which can be deployed to look, but not intervene, in areas where suspected violations of the Accords occured. Of course, such "peek and leave" raids can't be the only source of information gathering, but it would help.
2. Short or Long Term peacekeeping. In essence, the peacekeeping forces would form a barrier between two hostile nations in order to prevent further warfare. Sensor and some light weapons towers, probably, as well as good defensive forces.
3. Enforcement actions. Rendering punishment on a nation or tangling with a hostile force actively. As much of the Silverclaw Accords employ punishment by stripping protection of the Accords from violating nations, this will probably be limited to circumstances where the Council determines that more draconian measures may be required. Such actions would take the greatest toll on the peacekeeper forces, and should be employed as a last resort only.
Whatever the capacity decided upon, the peacekeeping faction should be ready to undertake its duties as soon as the Accords go into force, so some deadlines and perhaps sharp penalties should be enforced if alliances or factions don't meet their required startup contributions. (Perhaps special rewards for those that do, to help provide a carrot as opposed to a whip?)
Some thoughts on the council itself:
1. NO VETOES!!! No one alliance or faction should have the power to overturn decisions made by the Council. Just look at the history of the UN Security Council, and on the many times the US and the former USSR went and torpedoed otherwise good resolutions.
2. "Permanent" seats for the major alliances sounds like a good idea, until one realizes that major alliances tend not to last forever. Instead, I'd like to see 10-nevyear terms on such seats, with an evaluation of whether or not said alliances are fit to continue at the end of each term. Other seats should probably have 2 to 5 nevyear (roughly 2 to 6 months RL) terms.
Andrew
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"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi
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Lurker
Recruit
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85823 - 03/02/04 04:56 PM (24.71.76.145)
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Well you wanted brainstorming .....
How about getting the developers of Neveron to give it their backing, either in written form ( supported by Randy and Co. ) or maybe something coded in ( everyone who joins the United Nations of Neveron gets a free ice cream cone ).
I have to get back to the gym now, but I'll hopefully post more ideas later. If nothing else, you've given me something to think about during the next set 
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"Evil will always prevail, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
Survival is the ultimate ideology
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Lurker]
#85834 - 03/02/04 06:34 PM (129.138.30.194)
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I would rather something be player enforced. The reason being that all the code in the world will not stop people and will just take Randy and WW away from fixing bugs and adding in new things. No matter how you code something people will find a way around it unless you take the option out entirely.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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keegraham
Corporal
Reged: 01/13/04
Posts: 98
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: AndrewCrisp]
#85843 - 03/02/04 09:04 PM (68.107.154.165)
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there is a top 10 faction that is both peaceful and diplomatic.....maybe you can get them to run the united neveronian nations....the unn-faction
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drachillix
Corporal
Reged: 09/14/03
Posts: 98
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Kit_fox]
#85847 - 03/02/04 10:14 PM (24.127.147.7)
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Quote:
I would rather something be player enforced. The reason being that all the code in the world will not stop people and will just take Randy and WW away from fixing bugs and adding in new things. No matter how you code something people will find a way around it unless you take the option out entirely.
Lil'ol level 5 checking in. As I mentioned in the other thread coding a new tier of allances that only FL's can join might be a viable solution.
Voting could open every X number of nev months or years and the member nations could elect a leader or leaders for the Alliance.
Once the Alliance leader is elected account control is handed over to the new leader. Various simple code methods could be estabished for that like cancelling account access and emailing a temp password to the winner. Since there would most likely only be a few of these events every month or two it should not be burdensome to handle manually if not easily codeable.
For purposes of reducing abuse I would suggest that the alliance capital be a single block of 9 zones with one large city. Sattelite stations could be established for repair depots but should be single zones.
Most of an alliances income should be from taxes not its own infra. With the huge tax base provided by many subordinate factions it should provide sufficent funds to eventually build a sizeable peacekeeping force.
Peacekeepers atacks should never conquer a zone permanently and should unclaim the zone in question as soon as possible.
Attacking an alliance zone could easily result in a bounty of sorts by the alliance leader being placed on the attackers head, resulting in many people trying to claim the price on your head.
The alliance could maintain manufacturing facilities providing equipment at or near cost for alliance members.
Create a way to remove an alliance leader by large majority vote (say 75%) in cases of misconduct or breach of the established alliance guidelines.
These Alliances should not have a declaration of war option and should pay full price for all millitary ops.
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: AndrewCrisp]
#85853 - 03/03/04 01:03 AM (172.180.213.180)
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I think one point you all are missing is that it is usually one or more of the bigger alliances that commit those 'war crimes'...
So the enforcers need to be able to deal with that. Not with a stray smaller empire.
And guess what that whole alliance will do if someone comes by and tries to enforce some sort of accords they don't like onto them...
Lata
Krait
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Krait]
#85854 - 03/03/04 01:14 AM (129.138.30.194)
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So do you have any ideas then Krait?
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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drachillix
Corporal
Reged: 09/14/03
Posts: 98
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Krait]
#85869 - 03/03/04 06:07 AM (24.127.147.7)
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Quote:
I think one point you all are missing is that it is usually one or more of the bigger alliances that commit those 'war crimes'...
The infractions and interventions would most likely be targeted at individual empires that commit them, not the faction as a whole.
Quote:
So the enforcers need to be able to deal with that. Not with a stray smaller empire.
Don't confuse small in surface area with small in firepower, there is also the carrot side of the carrot and PPC motivation system. Negotiated rates for purchasing resources and zero profit arrangements on manufacturing could be very beneficial to member empires, even large empires could benefit nicely from such arrangements.
Quote:
And guess what that whole alliance will do if someone comes by and tries to enforce some sort of accords they don't like onto them...
Only member empires would be bound by the accords, so nobody is forced to comply. They would be more to discourage adventureism on the part of an otherwise friendly neighbor in times of crisis.
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: drachillix]
#85889 - 03/03/04 09:09 AM (172.176.4.201)
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Excuse me, but what the heck would be the point of such accords if half of Nev doesn't sign them and thus doesn't have to follow them?
The only reason I could see for them would be to bring the bigger offenders in line. The smaller ones are so easy to deal with that accords are pretty superfluous...
The only solution I can see is that someone tries to convince a majority of the larger alliances faction leaders to back these accords. And then they will have to be enforced on everyone, whether they sign them or not.
Otherwise its really not worth bothering with...
As for trade arrangements, that really is no carrot at all. What do you think how the more influential big empires are getting their equipment and minerals? Certainly not from the overpriced open market...
Lata
Krait
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drachillix
Corporal
Reged: 09/14/03
Posts: 98
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Krait]
#85899 - 03/03/04 10:48 AM (63.237.208.174)
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Quote:
Excuse me, but what the heck would be the point of such accords if half of Nev doesn't sign them and thus doesn't have to follow them?
More benefits will surely come up mainly along the lines of reinforcements and BP'er availability.Quote:
The only reason I could see for them would be to bring the bigger offenders in line. The smaller ones are so easy to deal with that accords are pretty superfluous...
Also of note as you so aptly put it, no empire is invincible.
Declaring open war on one of these Alliances would most likely result in mass retaliation from multiple factions well equipped for LW, making life 8 flavors of hell for the target. Gangbanging, yes. However because the gangbangers are signatories of the accords they would most likely be obligated to obey a ceasefire by the alliance leader and return captured territories if so ordered. Other rules of engagement could be established as well, IIRC deliberate destruction of infra is already prohibited in the SCA (was that on purpose Kit?)
Quote:
The only solution I can see is that someone tries to convince a majority of the larger alliances faction leaders to back these accords. And then they will have to be enforced on everyone, whether they sign them or not.
Trying to force players who have no desire to play nice in the sandbox into line will most likely fail miserably. If they want to be warmongers, let them. Just as long as they are prepared to reap the proverbial whirlwind.
Quote:
As for trade arrangements, that really is no carrot at all. What do you think how the more influential big empires are getting their equipment and minerals? Certainly not from the overpriced open market.
I understand this. I realize that the biggest empires will derive little or no benefit from it. one of the bonuses would be that many large groups (say ryu) are not a single integrated organization with a unified command structure. Having a system like this would allow direct communications and support from a much wider group of players.
Lata
Krait
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Nimon
Captain
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 819
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: drachillix]
#85910 - 03/03/04 11:59 AM (65.240.118.50)
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I highly doubt that the Nev Com would sign on with anything like this for the simple reason there is nothing to gain from it for us. Plus I do not like the idea of peopl I do not assign to be incharge of our forces, because who knows what interest they have in mind and it may not be my troops best interest.
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Raffi
Recruit
Reged: 03/11/03
Posts: 42
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Krait]
#85912 - 03/03/04 12:19 PM (66.169.63.150)
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I do not miss that point at all. I agree 100% that without the larger alliances support in this it will not fly..period.
I do think that most of these alliances do have the ability to 'police' their own tho.
example: Let us say Gen signs the Accords and THEIR rep and the rest of the council agree a violation has taken place. It should then fall to their leadership to carry out the councils decision. If they are not willing to do that then no such accord will work in Neveron. If the leadership looks at this and views it as a valid path they will follow through with it, if not..then they would not sign up.
I really think it would be best served if the leadership of the offending empires be the ones to carry out enforcement. A seprate UN type faction will just be a target, and could never stand up against what could come, However like the Gen example..if Mad Mike signs the Accords and says Gen will follow them, and one of his members violates it, they broke his word and dishonerd him. I am sure he is very capable to deal with that empire....be it embargos, explosion or termination for what then would be HIS alliances code of ethics.
I really do not see something like this working in Nev, but it most definitly will not without the Large alliances leadership taking ACTIVE role in its enforcement, and may be the only direction some would be willing to sign up under. As they would want control over their groups actions..understandably
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'The great turning point in history is when all will stand with one great voice and say...."Screw it, why bother" Then a lone voice from the silent darkness replies... "Gotcha"!
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Mazer
Colonel
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 1622
Loc: Margaritaville ;)
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Nimon]
#85921 - 03/03/04 01:02 PM (66.20.28.21)
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Nobody ever said whatever council the Accords created would be telling people what to do with their troops. Sure, telling them what NOT to do, and putting certain restrictions in place. But nobodies going to say "Okay, this guy broke the law, so you over there have to go beat him up. Because we said so."
And the bonus should be obvious: If you follow agree to follow a simple set of moral restrictions, then everybody else who signs on has to follow the restrictions too. It's really nothing more than a mutual defense pact between everyone who agrees with the Accords and everyone who doesn't. By signing on, you get the assurance that anyone else following the Accords will abide by the restrictions if they attack you, and if someone outside the restrictions attacks you then the rest of the forces under the Accords should help you out.
That I think is what will make or break alliances decision to support the Accords or not. If one alliance following the Accords is attacked by someone from the 'outside' (for lack of a better word), and the non-'Allied' empire breaks a rule of the Accords, the rest of the 'Allied' alliances/empires should provide financial, material, or military support depending on the threat posed to the 'Allied' alliance/empire under attack.
Without that, there really isn't much of a benefit to the Accords, since all people have to do is not sign up and they have nothing to worry about.
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Struck, sir? I have not yet begun to fight! - John Paul Jones
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Protagoras
Captain
Reged: 08/04/02
Posts: 1131
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Mazer]
#85942 - 03/03/04 02:20 PM (161.114.1.181)
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Quote:
If you follow agree to follow a simple set of moral restrictions, then everybody else who signs on has to follow the restrictions too. It's really nothing more than a mutual defense pact between everyone who agrees with the Accords and everyone who doesn't. By signing on, you get the assurance that anyone else following the Accords will abide by the restrictions if they attack you, and if someone outside the restrictions attacks you then the rest of the forces under the Accords should help you out.
Which sahows exactly krait's point that you must get several of the large alliances to agree to this, otherwise the point is moot. You MUST be able to enforce the rules, and not with a disorganized rabble of underfunded empires (which is who would be signing it without the big alliances joining). I'm not trying to belittle but it is a truism that for the most part outside of the big alliances organization and funding are low comparatively. I would say if any TWO of HoC Gen Ryuken NevCom Dest agreed and they spanked the ever lovin' poop out of the first couple of folks that violated the accord you might have something... without that.. your merely pissing in the wind.
I hope you make it work.. but I don't see it happening. But I have been wrong before.
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Mazer
Colonel
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 1622
Loc: Margaritaville ;)
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Protagoras]
#85946 - 03/03/04 02:49 PM (66.20.28.21)
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I agree there, it needs force to back it up, my point was in response to Nimon's comment that there is no incentive for larger empires or alliances to join. It justs needs enough military support to get off the ground now.
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Struck, sir? I have not yet begun to fight! - John Paul Jones
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Nimon
Captain
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 819
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Protagoras]
#85966 - 03/03/04 06:37 PM (172.208.196.76)
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I agree with you. And to get the bigger alliance people to sign on there has to be something in it worth it for them to support it. Simpily saying that all in the accord will follow the rules is not enough, plus lets say HoC, not saying that they would not sign on, is not part of the accords, would all the accord sign on people attack HoC if they broke the accords without mercy? Heck its hard enough to keep people focused on one goal for a month let alone a ongoing project with no end.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Nimon]
#85970 - 03/03/04 07:18 PM (129.138.30.194)
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Hmmm...
Well, Nimon, what type of thing are you talking about? What do you think would get large factions to sign this?
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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AndrewCrisp
Sergeant
Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Nimon]
#85972 - 03/03/04 07:47 PM (156.34.215.180)
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Nimon - and fellow delegates - consider the alternative.
Throughout much of Neveron's history before 3230, there has been perhaps one truly major war; the Star League War of 3213. But since MadMan's abdication as Nevlord, we have had THREE major wars fought in the past five nevyears. The first Kizo-HoC war was relatively brief and did not see much change from the status quo, but I believe you are painfully familiar with what happened with the second conflict, not two nevyears in our past. The third war I speak of is the fight between the Word of Blake and HoC, which rages to this day.
Look at what these wars have wrought. The Neveron Commonwealth, as well as Iron Rose Enterprises, were the few nations on Neveron capable of producing battlemechs, but now they are either unable or unwilling to produce them for the open market. Barely five nevyears after its introduction, the ability to produce battlemechs locally is in danger of being lost for a long time to come. Costs of items on the open market have skyrocketed, as producers have thinned and the demand has grown. The construction of new mines has slowed - many nations simply cannot afford to defend their natural resources from those who would take them, and so sell out to the highest bidder, who in turn raise prices so they can make a profit. And over all of this is the fear that another major war will occur, draining the markets, driving up prices, destroying much in the way of cities and industry and technology.
Look at the past wars and ask yourself: do you truly want this to happen again?
It is not just the Neveron Commonwealth that is at risk. I ask the leaders of HoC, of Genyosha, of LIFE, of DEST, of Ryuken, of all factions, major and minor. Look at what happened to the old Kizo alliance, and consider: someday this could be you.
Would any of you, simply for a point of pride or advantage, seek to bring down destruction upon yourself and all of Neveron? Would you say to the millions who live on this world, and to the thousands of leaders that try to protect them as best as they can: "Let darkness fall"?
You asked, what is in it for the major alliances? My answer is simple: Peace. A chance to rebuild and regain what we have lost. A chance to prevent another major war, before it destroys us all.
The Accords will not be easy to enforce, granted. But this is all the more reason for the larger alliances to sign them and agree to uphold them. You of all of us gathered here stand to lose the most if these Accords are not signed.
It is also the reason why my recommendation for an independant "peacekeeper faction" was made. Not every faction will be able - or willing - to police the Accords, though Raffi does make a good point about factions being able to guard against rogue members who would break the Accords. An independant faction sanctioned by the Accords would both lessen the day to day requirements of the major alliances in enforcement, and provide a means of providing enforcement in those circumstances when a violation of the Accords is faction-wide.
By themselves, the major alliances may not be successful in enforcing the accords. By itself, the peacekeeper faction may not be able to enforce the accords. But together, they can succeed where individually they cannot.
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"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi
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imirk
Sergeant
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 102
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: AndrewCrisp]
#85991 - 03/04/04 12:13 AM (66.239.60.39)
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humm just wondering how powerful this could be if nimon and chet endorsed it and randy enabled black listing, between the 3 mech producing empires there would be no light mechs and eventually no mechs at all for non supporters unless they dped for mechs and put a stranglehold on the market by using everyone who does want mechs to shatter opponents infra so that mechs could never be built sure it would be hard at first resulting in nevwide war but i believe the production advantage would be enough to turn the tide and once they start falling they will just continue to do so
man i feel for the servers if this was to ever happen
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The Squirrel Test brought to you by Quizilla
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: imirk]
#86003 - 03/04/04 03:11 AM (172.182.225.8)
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'You asked, what is in it for the major alliances? My answer is simple: Peace. A chance to rebuild and regain what we have lost. A chance to prevent another major war, before it destroys us all.'
I think this is exactly the crux of the problem. Some people do NOT want peace. And those that do want it don't want to officially band up all together because then they will be forced to war if one of the band is attacked. If there are no official ties they can sit back and say 'Ahh good they're busy with someone else, we don't have to waste endless hours of our time in a stupid war for now'.
And this is pretty much why I don't think something like this could work. Unless EVERYONE of significance signs it and we bring a new age of chivalry and honor to war. But from what I am gettingin chat recently many warrers have absolutely no interest in that, the 'All is fair in love and war' attitude is just too predominant.
Lata
Krait
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Protagoras
Captain
Reged: 08/04/02
Posts: 1131
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Nimon]
#86031 - 03/04/04 08:37 AM (161.114.1.181)
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Quote:
I agree with you. And to get the bigger alliance people to sign on there has to be something in it worth it for them to support it. Simpily saying that all in the accord will follow the rules is not enough, plus lets say HoC, not saying that they would not sign on, is not part of the accords, would all the accord sign on people attack HoC if they broke the accords without mercy? Heck its hard enough to keep people focused on one goal for a month let alone a ongoing project with no end.
I am HoC... and if as in your example HoC refused to sign... the ONLY way to make it work is if HoC violated it.. the Bigger empires would have to knock the poop out of HoC... which if two of the bigger alliances were signatories and really REALLY committed could do. Provided of course HoC and non-signatories did not form a pact to defy the Silver Claw Accords (which would have to have a new name IMNSHO). I Think it likely if this hypothetical scenario were to come to pass HoC and Say Gen would form a pact to defy the hypothetical Nev Com Ryuken Dest signatories and we would have either a very uneasy ceasefire or an all out NevWar.
This could work with enough support... it could fail utterly in a small expulsion of gases as the bigger guys LW'd the unorganized rabble into the dirt for daring to suggest it... or it could light off another major nevwar.
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Nimon
Captain
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 819
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Kit_fox]
#86033 - 03/04/04 08:53 AM (65.240.118.50)
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What would make Large factions join into it?
Depends on the faction,
Ryuken, Genyosha, Nev Com, and somewhat WoB are similar, we are builders and producers so we would need some thing that would apeal to that nature.
HoC, DEST, Clanners, and somewhat WOB are more war oreiented and thus they would have to have something that apeals to them in that aspect.
LIFE, ARS, Mafia, and the rest I really do not know what would encourage them to join in the accords.
But the major stumbling block is this what is good for producers is not good for war factions, and what is good for war factions is not good for producers. So you have your basic problem right there. each 'side' has its war empires and its production empires. the production empires get security from thier war empires and the war empires get arms from thier producing allies. So what can this accord really offer that would be better than that?
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Nimon]
#86038 - 03/04/04 10:04 AM (129.138.30.194)
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I would beg to differ on the point that what is good for war factions is not good for producers. The reason being that war factions can only exist as long as they can buy the weapons the producers make. Sure there is DP, but I doubt anyone wants to build an empire that needs to have 50DP poured into it every week simply to survive.
I think the BIGGEST problem right now is the transition period Neveron is going through. From what I have gathered a lot of the anger directed at Kizo and you, Nimon, has to do mostly with production. I have heard it said that you are bad or hurting the game somehow, though I have not really heard a good reason other then vague refrences to high prices, mostly on items you do not sell since they are saying it hurts noobs and I don't see you setting the price to jeeps or anything that a new empire would buy.
I think what they are really worried about is the transisition from a NASI mech market to one controlled by an empire. Perhaps when mech prices were around 10 million this wouldn't have happened, but people have seen prices rise on mechs time and again and are getting very uppity about it. They are worried that people producing mechs will just drive the price up more, so they will try to stop the production of mechs from happening.
Were the mech market even mostly in player hands I do not think this would happen on the other hand just because of the political power you would be able to exirt by stopping the production of mechs, and I believe that is another thing people fear. The power that would come from the empires controling the mech flow. So they are going to try to stop it before you can get that far.
Ironically this actually hurts them. High prices only go up when the producers are attacked for several reasons. First off, the producer is producing less as he is forced to divert resourses to something else, namely war. Secondly, without the ability to black list the people attacking him you want your enemies to have to pay as much for replacements as possible, so you price high and give out TA's to your allies so they can buy at more normal prices. This is especially true for large empires which produce a lot of product.
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The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Whalefsh
Captain
Reged: 01/31/03
Posts: 1129
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Protagoras]
#86042 - 03/04/04 10:35 AM (134.36.4.120)
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It could be interesting tho. A kinda NATO/Warsaw Pact situation. Mmmmm... A Nev Cold war?
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Whalefsh
What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you excercise it?
To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you? - Tony Benn
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Protagoras
Captain
Reged: 08/04/02
Posts: 1131
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Re: Looking for Suggestions
[Re: Kit_fox]
#86044 - 03/04/04 11:10 AM (161.114.1.181)
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Quote:
From what I have gathered a lot of the anger directed at Kizo and you, Nimon, has to do mostly with production.
I can only speak for what I heard and know. I also participated for HoC in the HoC kizo war and I know the thing that brought the most anger from HoC was the smug self-satisfied 'we can kill you HoC guys whenever we want' attitude from Nimon's war leaders. Not from Nimon himself. I am sure there were some folks hated Nimon because he bought several large empires... me I was pissed because Kizo was mouthing off threatening HoC.
As for Nimon's economic policy, I said time and again it was smart on one level, but it would make him no friends outside of Kizo and the small empires. I must assume that Nimon thought he could repel the Allies powers, as he kept his economic policy which granted the Allies political will to hit Kizo hard, and he let his War Leaders act like thugs in chat. What happened was ignited by words and threats, I doubt the Alliance would have formed just because of pricing strategies on Tanks. Most of the Alliance makes their own tanks anyway.
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