Inefficencies of 3050 clan mechs

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Solex
04/18/04 08:26 PM
207.6.222.210

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Does anyone else feel that when designing the 3050 clan mech certain ones were made very inefficiently? I'm talking primarily about the Blackhawk, Vulture, Loki, Summoner and Man O' War.

The Loki for example uses neither FF nor ES and none of the configurations from any offical battletech sources has less than 20 free criticals (23 by 3050 tech). If both were added an extra 4 tons could be freed up.

The Man O' War is another design that I have problems with. A 5/8 movement rate is incredibly inefficient for an 80 ton mech. While maintaining the same number of total armour points, the available pod space could be increased by reducing the tonnage of the mech by up to 15 tons. Additional tonnage could also be freed up by switching to ES since no published configuration has fewer than 19 free criticals. Though it's sorta fun to say you have an assault mech that moves at 5/8, I cannot see any reason why the clans would design or even continue to manufacture a design that is so flawed.
CrayModerator
04/18/04 08:32 PM
68.200.111.17

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Quote:

Does anyone else feel that when designing the 3050 clan mech certain ones were made very inefficiently?



Virtually all canon mechs are not efficient. Clan, IS, 3025, 3050, or 3067.

If the writers applied all their years of Battletech playing experience to canon mechs, what would be left for players to develop in their home games? Those inefficient designs are your chance to invent "better" designs than those in the tech readouts.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Nightward
04/18/04 10:27 PM
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Yes a lot of official designs do suck. My personal gripe is with the Gargoyle- the Timber Wolf, which is 5 tons lighter in fact moves the same rate, yet has better armour and more pod space, as well as the same number of heat sinks.

And since both are Wolf Clan designs, it's really had to see why the Gargoyle even exists. Feh.

However, I reserve a special hatred in my heart for the Linebacker. It's supposed to be a replacement for the Timber Wolf- yet it fails in every single way possible. It has weaker armour, less heat dissipation, less weaponry...it movess at 6/9, rather than 5/8. That's it. That's the magical advantage it is supposed to wield over the Timber Wolf. I don't get it.

The 3025 designs are all fairly efficient, at least for what they are. There's not much you can really do in Level 1.

However, the problem in canon designs is...that's what they are. They're built to reflect the House or Clan they come from. We can all build twinkmobiles; it's very, very easy. In BT, however, there's a number of different factions and allegiences.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Solex
04/19/04 12:40 AM
207.6.222.210

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I don't expect every design to be super efficient and can accept the fact that some mechs are lemons because a concept was an overiding factor in its design (3025 Chargers and Banshees comes to mind). Most of these flawed designs however aren't mass produced front line mechs.

Given the clan's technical ability there's no reason why they wouldn't retool any factories and cost isn't an issue either as reducing the weight of the Gargoyle would only make it cheaper. Not every design has to be optimized but there should be some rational if it isn't. The upgraded IS 3050 mechs and designs such as the Akuma are good examples of back stories that support an inefficient design.

It just strikes me as odd that a society that was entirely geared towards war would design an ineffient mech and then mass produce it when there are alternatives that are much better.

Nightward I totally agree with the comments about the Linebacker. The back story with Linebacker was that it was developed because the Timber Wolf couldn't keep up with its starmates. Maybe it's just me but the last time I checked the Timber Wolf was as fast as the Mad Dog, Loki and Summoner. Make a 6/9 heavy mech if you want but don't give a BS reason for its development.
Gangrene
04/19/04 01:32 AM
24.6.228.14

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Quote:


It just strikes me as odd that a society that was entirely geared towards war would design an ineffient mech and then mass produce it when there are alternatives that are much better.





Especially when waste is so abhored by their culture. There is no good fluff-based reason for the so many clan mechs to be as sucky as they are. The true reasons stem from FASA's unwillingness to make optimized designs, and to try to make the mechs a little more game balanced.

I also agree that the Linebacker stinks when compared to the 'Cat. The Mad Cat is probably my favorite mech of the game, and the Linebacker just cannot hold a candle to it in terms of capability.
Gangrene
CrayModerator
04/19/04 06:51 AM
68.200.111.17

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Quote:

It just strikes me as odd that a society that was entirely geared towards war would design an ineffient mech and then mass produce it when there are alternatives that are much better.



The Clans suffer from horrible inefficiencies at all levels in their society, despite notionally abhoring waste. Their economy deliberately suppresses capitalism, meaning once they've produced the "necessities" of Clan life, they don't keep operating the factories to produce new consumer goods, stimulate the economy, expand the industrial base, etc. The Clans supposedly have resource poor home worlds, but they're in the middle of millions of uninhabited, unclaimed star systems where the closest neighbors are Deep Periphery weenies that could never contest a Clan claim to one rich metallic asteroid that would completely end all Clan resource shortages. But, apparently, exploration and asteroid mining are unnecessary to the Clans...
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Nightward
04/20/04 02:20 AM
211.26.6.32

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My hate of the Linebacker know no limit.

But the Akuma is a menace in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing with it. I regularly paste my friends in Assualt 'Mech melees involving designs like the Templar, Saggitaire and Thuder Hawl. It's one of my favourite machines, and it performs its task (attacking static positions and going toe-to-toe) extremely well. And if you're not sold on that, go look at the cover art from The Dragon Roars (it's the Akuma beating down on a Storm Crow in the BMR). That should be enough to win over even the most rabid hater of the Akuma.

As for the Clans, they do abhor waste. It's just that most of them have to scrape and srabble for evry shred of materiel they get. This is why the Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons, and Star Adders have such huge Toumans- they've got the resources to back them up.

The Wolves got by on excellent 'Mech design and superior MechWarriors. It's the Blood of Kerensky, don'cha know...

And if the Clans had gone and used logic, they would have come back and ashed the Inner Sphere. People compained the Clans were too good as they were. Imagine what would have happened if the Clans had returned, lived up to their potential, slapped Anastasius Focht and the Com Guard aside, and then proceeded to re-take Terra.

It'd make the Word of Blake Jihad look like a century of total peace.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
tgsofgc
04/23/04 03:36 AM
209.110.234.57

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I agree with Cray to a point but I also would like to point out the plethora of "inefficient" designs (which I would say is every cannon mech) serve the following purposes as well:
1. The fact that the mechs are inefficient gives a larger variety. Namely not only are the weapon and equipment systems not totally balanced and some wouldn't exist on efficient designs the mix generally helps to give every mech a somewhat unique feel. This is especially important to those not interested in designing tons of mechs to flesh out enough to "fill" the universe.
2. The vast majority of inefficient designs, especially those that make obvious mistakes in designing, exist particularly for because either this way they fit better into the game without disturbing game balance, or they add alot of flavor (the charger).

Sometimes the greatest joy in a game isn't from breaking it, but instead pureposefully avoiding the breaking points. While I enjoy a pick up bring your own design game, I must admit the most fun I have had in battletech was in Mechwarrior 2nd edition games that used only cannon designs.

As to the inefficiency don't think of it as particular. If anything I'd argue that the TROs have produced more and more efficient, closer to home brewed, units with each successive release. 3050 sticks out somewhat especially in retrospect because of the stupid use of new technology, but really you have 3058 with the second liners that could creme the vast majority of clan omnimechs. *Cough* behemoth, viper, goshawk.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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