JStallion
05/09/04 04:23 PM
69.244.182.44
|
When playing a game and you're fielding omnimechs, IS or Clan, do you usually just go by the prime or variants configurations, or do you outfit them as you see fit?
|
Cray
05/09/04 05:09 PM
68.200.110.144
|
Quote:
When playing a game and you're fielding omnimechs, IS or Clan, do you usually just go by the prime or variants configurations, or do you outfit them as you see fit?
I always outfit them as I see fit (fitting them into a few preferred configurations). The "stock" models rarely suit me, nor do they really seem to embody the potentials of omnitech.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Greyslayer
05/09/04 05:13 PM
216.14.192.234
|
That would be an issue of custom mechs rather than omni-pods.
The term pod means that the equipment is already there to slot in.
Say for example I had a Black Hawk (Nova) Prime but I wanted to change to a Black Hawk S (6 medium Pulse laser version). Just because I have 6 medium pulse lasers lying about doesn't mean I could just throw them on unless they were already placed in a pod ready.
This is proven when you look at repairing mechs and times, if you were able to just throw items willy-nilly on an omni-mech you would need to pay a singlular amount of time for EACH item involved in the change rather than one period of time to switch pods over.
Depending on the situation, but if a force had spent the time to balance the pods out and manufacture the pods to slot into the omni-mech then there wouldn't be a problem but to just throw items on a mech and claim you can do it because it is an omni is incorrect in my honest opinion.
So in answer to your question I don't see a reason to outfit Omnis as custom mechs when I field them so I field Omnis as either (published) Prime or (published) Variant
|
Grizzly
05/09/04 05:17 PM
12.108.119.227
|
This may sound cheesy or lazy, but I usually pick whichever variant will work with the other mechs in my unit, or I take my favorite version. I rarely sit down and work up my own, but that is because until very recently I didn't have a design program and I couldn't be bothered with writing up a sheet from scratch. I still don't have Heavy Metal, but I did download the Drawing Board. Not bad for a free program, but I really want to get HMP. I just can't justify the expense right now since I am not playing very often.
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
|
Gangrene
05/09/04 06:54 PM
24.6.228.14
|
I oufit them as I see fit. The book configs generally suck, and the whole point of using an omni is to tailor it to my needs.
Gangrene
|
Greyslayer
05/09/04 07:02 PM
216.14.192.234
|
And non-omnis? Do you outfit them as you see fit?
Also do you modify the chassis (base) as you see fit of an omni?
|
Cray
05/09/04 07:19 PM
68.200.110.144
|
Quote:
And non-omnis? Do you outfit them as you see fit?
Personally, I tend to tweak non-omnis, and then give up and create custom units when the base chassis can't be tweaked enough to suit me.
Quote:
Also do you modify the chassis (base) as you see fit of an omni?
When an omni's base chassis doesn't suit me, I tend to either look for an alternative or create a new omni.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Gangrene
05/09/04 08:47 PM
24.6.228.14
|
No and no.
I find it unrealistic for tech crews to be modifying a fixed design at whim like they could on an omni.
Gangrene
Edited by Gangrene (05/09/04 08:53 PM)
|
JStallion
05/09/04 10:00 PM
69.244.182.44
|
I always thought the ability to change them as u see fit is what made an omni an omni, and not being able to do so is why theres standard non-omn mechs
|
Greyslayer
05/10/04 12:18 AM
216.14.192.234
|
Depends on your interpretation of the pod system.
As I have said the pod system is about the swapping of pods already ready, ie specifically made for that mech. So even if you have the weapons but not the pod that the weapons fit in then you probably would have more chance of modifying a standard mech than trying to slot those weapons in.
Where the omni-mech picks up the advantage is that minimal tinkering is needed when swapping pods. It takes but a moment to slot the old pod out and since the pod was designed to slot in that particular mech it just slots in and the gyro is then given the calibration settings for that pod type for mech. When you customise a pod these things haven't been done yet, extensive testing (still nowhere near as much as for a standard mech when being customised) would need to be done to make sure everything is okay but once the pod is made, tested and given the right settings for the gyro then there shouldn't be a problem for that particular type of mech to use that pod in the future.
Many designs as part of the fluff explain the difficulties or the design or why the design ended up the way that it did. Many reasons include the lack of access to certain weaponry but could also include power coupling problems and targetting problems with certain equipment, this isn't taken into account within the tabletop game itself.
|
Ignorant_Savage
05/10/04 08:14 AM
24.197.176.136
|
you know, i used to just design my own omni configurations for the most part, but your argument here has given me pause. i often also wondered why they always listed the omnis by variant in the old sourcebooks. your theory here would explain that rather well.
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
|
JStallion
05/10/04 03:42 PM
69.244.182.44
|
yeah i agree your arguement points out a lot. using the avatar as an example, it comes with 2 medium lasers set in it in addition to its pod space, so claiming theres pods already existing for that mech's configurations makes sense because thats why the medium lasers are stuck in there instead of upgrading them to pulse or ER, or even trading them for space to use with another weapon.
On the other side of the arugement though, not sure which book it was but in the battle for New Sytris the main character pilots a templar and switches out the rotary autocannon in order to use the older models to get the benefit of the new rounds they invented. Granted in the record sheets for 3067 theres a Grayson templar that has 2 AC5's, which im hoping is in there to show how he customized it. but his mech is the only templar variant (if his is even considered a variant instead of the record sheets just showing his customization) with the old autocannons. If the pods are there so you use those instead of being able to customize, why would he be an exception?
|
Greyslayer
05/10/04 05:31 PM
216.14.192.234
|
He is not an exception. Look at all the specialist Dire Wolf (daishi) variants, the Aidan Pryde Mad Cat as well (despite the fact I think that was how he actually got the mech rather than Designing it himself).
You'll notice I never said it was impossible to knock-up a pod for an omni-mech, just that it wasn't easy but still easier than modifying a standard mech. But without the equipment to make a pod for the mech it is basically useless.
I held the best argument for pods back to tell the truth, and this argument is arm actuators. If the pod included the actuators, weapons and specialist equipment then you would pay the short time it takes to swap pods, but imagine the time it would take to put actuators and weapons and equipment in SEPARATELY. This argument also shows that pods in general can only be used for fairly specific variants as it would be hard to imagine just throwing actuators in and out of a pod.
You could also imagine the logistics required if a commander wanted the ability to have more than the configuration the mechs are travelling with.
An advantage few people realise though is that if any equipment from the pod is damaged you just remove the pod and replace it with a new one and all is well. For example instead of trying to repair the damaged ER PPC and DHS (double heat sink) on a Masakari's arm, if you have a spare pod you just swap the damaged pod out and swap the new one in. If the mech had Lower or Hand actuators that were also damaged this will also be removed when the pods are swapped. If you don't have the pod to swap but have another variant pod just switch variants and work on the damaged components later. Here is where you see the true advantage of Omni-mechs, of course most people who use custom pods don't seem bright enough to carry spare pods ... 
(Just had to edit to answer something further)
In relation to individual custom omnis seen in books and record sheets all you have to do is capture the pod schematics and the gyro/targetting settings and basically there would be little to stop you from fielding that version (unless you don't have the equipment or the ability to make a pod itself).
One thing that does annoy me about omni-mechs is jump jets. Jump jets are an expensive system using more than just the ports, since that is the case my opinion is that the BASE version should have the backbone of the jump jet system in it and thus most of the costing included in the base system. I would find it hard to believe that in the short time given to swap pods that you can gain access to the mechs engine to set-up the jump-jet system yet it would be easy enough to just add the in-expensive ports when switching versions. This would mean the price of all non-jump but jump-capable omni-mechs would raise a bit but that is the price you pay for potential.... (just my beef).
Edited by Greyslayer (05/10/04 05:44 PM)
|
tgsofgc
05/10/04 07:03 PM
209.110.233.13
|
Generally when playing battletech I use mechs as they are written. Meaning no player created variants, omnimechs can only usebase variants, etc. Exceptions for this include:
1. In RPG Campaigns variants or configurations that are created after making extensive roles as per hybridized system from the maxtech rules and whatever rpg system is being used. (Namely lots of tech/engineering/computer skill roles for maintaing balance).
2. Pick up custom games. I haven't played many of these cause generally unless there is 5+ people it ends up being deathly boring. There isn't as much motivation and unless players agree to odd limits before hand, many players end up using sterotypical designs... especially clantech.
3. Super well balanced, well fluffed designs. If im running a campaign or battle and want to surprise long time players who can name off weapndry etc of nearly any design I'm not opposed to using custom designs that don't totally destroy the balance of cannon units. The general rule of thumb is to to make sure players know this won't quite be a cannon universe.
My view on omni pods is very much a product both of my view that not every mech in battletech is unique, the difference between anime and battletech, and a result of the implications in maxtech.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
|
Cray
05/10/04 09:37 PM
68.200.110.144
|
Quote:
Depends on your interpretation of the pod system.
As I have said the pod system is about the swapping of pods already ready, ie specifically made for that mech.
So...when some military comes up with a set of specifications for "omni compatible structural mounts" (or something similar), wouldn't the weapons built to those specs just be ready to be plugged into omni mounts, rather than waiting for a lot of engineering to fit any weapon onto omni mount?
The fluff for the TR:3058 Blackjack omni is particularly indicative of widely adaptable mounts vs less adaptable ones. The DCMS versions could use IS and Clan weaponry, the export versions could only use IS weaponry. The suggestion is that any weapon built to specs could be plugged on easily, while those not to specs were not compatible.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Greyslayer
05/11/04 12:03 AM
216.14.192.233
|
This would indicate a very big hole in the rules (not to mention the amount of times battletech novels and mech fluff has contradicted itself anyway), as with a standard component system in standard mechs replacements would take time for each component.
Where under the system suggested for the blackjack omni the mech would take a certain amount to mount all equipment regardless of the number of items to be mounted (swapping out the equipment from a Daishi taking the same time as swapping out equipment for say an Uller?). Individual items require individual rolls, its a simple system and probably too excessively logical for those that do write-ups.
Being an engineer this is probably simple for you but the whole argument is based on the meaning of POD. In this case it doesn't mean a group of seals, whales or dolphins, nor is it a leguminous fruit nor a sack of insect eggs. POD under this system means (straight from dictionary.com):
A casing or housing forming part of a vehicle, as:
a) A streamlined external housing that encloses engines, machine guns, or fuel.
b) Aerospace. A detachable compartment on a spacecraft for carrying personnel or instrumentation.
My interpretation is that housing is what the equipment is already in before being slotted in, further to that the meaning of pod during Aerospace talks of 'detachable compartment', again very much like the way I had described it.
Podspace would be the area the pod would have to slot into.
Maybe they should call them omni-peas since they certainly not omni-pods
Quote:
So...when some military comes up with a set of specifications for "omni compatible structural mounts" (or something similar), wouldn't the weapons built to those specs just be ready to be plugged into omni mounts, rather than waiting for a lot of engineering to fit any weapon onto omni mount?
How could the area of say a 20-ton mech's arm have all the adaptions, plug-in points and everything like that for all the specific equipment? They were cramped quarters to start with. What of the actuators? Do they simply just fall off? Or do they Robojock off?
A single plug with the associated adaptions already built into the existing pod (adaptors specific to the equipment it holds) would make a better argument as it would be highly wasteful otherwise. From what I remember Clans could, if pushed, put IS equipment in their Mechs including pods. The Blackjack was probably just some fancy fluff to make it actually sound half-usefull, rather than a slow 50-tonner with odd weapon configs.
|
Gangrene
05/11/04 01:30 AM
24.6.228.14
|
I have to agree with Cray in this case. I have always thought the modularity was built into the casings for the weapons themselves, not that there was a secondary compartment between mech and weapon. If you look at how modularity is used in the aerospace field you'll see that this is often what is done. Multiple types of ordinance can be connected to a single connector because of universal mechanical connectors and buses.
I see no need for your interpretation of weapons not being pods themselves.
Gangrene
|
Cray
05/11/04 06:11 AM
68.200.110.144
|
Quote:
This would indicate a very big hole in the rules
Y'know, I just don't see the issue as being that big. So what if you can totally reconfigure all the crits in a hit location of an omnimech with completely new items, treating the new array as one "pod"? Is that much different than claiming you had a custom pod pre-designed and ready to go?
Quote:
How could the area of say a 20-ton mech's arm have all the adaptions, plug-in points and everything like that for all the specific equipment?
It would have a few standard plug-in ports, a total equal to the crits available. The weapons would have standard ports and plugs to match, ports and plugs that wouldn't vary from item to item. A UAC/2 might not use the big power feed (meant for energy weapons) to its full extent, and an ER PPC wouldn't install an ammo feed belt at all, but their mounts could have the correct geometry to latch onto those ports.
Edited by Cray (05/11/04 06:15 AM)
|
Greyslayer
05/11/04 04:49 PM
216.14.192.233
|
So under your system you would have to roll to attach each peice of equipment and it would take 30 minites if the roll (at -4) is successful. Or we could take it as the repair tables state which is:
Omnimech - POD (not item, weapon, slot or critical) (LOCATION - very important here) modifier -4, time 30 minutes, failed result means taken twice as long. Just to make sure the understanding of location is easy enough for everyone to understand it means a torso, arm, head or leg of a mech (or side or turret in a vehicle) not the individual critical or item. It shows this by using location for clearing of Hull Breaches, replacing armour and internal structure. Before the argument of 'but armour can be one to 50-odd points' it states 15 minutes per point, but it states 30 minutes per location for omnimech - pods.
This clearly shows that all equipment needs to be attached at the same time not individually. Which would mean that a pod rather than a item would have to be used. It says pod, it says location, how much more clear cut does it have to be? oh thats right a silly blurb as part of the fluff for a fairly obsure battlemech.
As to the importance of the situation, it is important if you play a campaign. You have a couple of hours before an assault force reaches your position and your configuration doesn't meet the criteria you have to meet this engagement. Do you order your tech to put all those medium lasers one at a time or ask him to throw the pod in?
Quote:
If you look at how modularity is used in the aerospace field you'll see that this is often what is done. Multiple types of ordinance can be connected to a single connector because of universal mechanical connectors and buses.
Ahh, but this is only entirely true of the varied ordinance within specific aerospace units. Some units have ordinance specifically for them and then there are differences within models and countries which means the connector may not be so universal. For IS battlemechs they have to be able to field hundreds of years worth of differing production models of weapons. This would be fine if the equipment was already mounted in a pod since you have already fitted it to work on the mech (since if it fits and works in the pod and the pod can connect directly with the mech), imagine the problem if in taking the PPC you didn't realise it used a connector common during the 3rd Succession War but not in 3063? (or whichever year you are in) I don't remember weapons manufacturers changing their weapons significantly for omnis, this is because the pods would take this into account or not use the item.
|
Cray
05/11/04 07:33 PM
68.200.110.144
|
Quote:
So under your system you would have to roll to attach each peice of equipment
Well, I'd just treat one hit location as a pod, even if the equipment going into that location was a completely new configuration thought up of on the spot. It's quicker and less of an accounting bother that way. I figure that's what omni tech is about: playing Legos with weaponry and equipment on omnivehicles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (05/11/04 07:40 PM)
|
Greyslayer
05/11/04 07:59 PM
216.14.192.234
|
Unless that 'lego' has other rules around it. Say regarding arm actuators that have to be removed if the weapon is of a certain size or larger. This would be covered if it was part of the pod itself. Lower and hand actuators are classified as 'podspace' in the base design. So in theory you can have pods incorporating the actuators into them.
If you were to remove a Large Pulse Laser and Replace it with a ER PPC, normally if the largest weapon is a Large Pulse Laser you would leave the Lower Arm Actuator on but for the ER PPC you would have to remove the Lower Arm Actuator.... slotting one item out and throwing on another just doesn't fit into the rules as they are.
|
Cray
05/11/04 08:15 PM
68.200.110.144
|
Quote:
If you were to remove a Large Pulse Laser and Replace it with a ER PPC, normally if the largest weapon is a Large Pulse Laser you would leave the Lower Arm Actuator on but for the ER PPC you would have to remove the Lower Arm Actuator.... slotting one item out and throwing on another just doesn't fit into the rules as they are.
You know, I don't agree with your interpretation of what constitutes a pod, and thus I don't agree with your interpretation of the omni rules. But you seem to have pretty firm convictions on this and I don't care enough to keep arguing semantics, so I won't try to convince you further. You do what you want in your game and I'll be doing something else in mine.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Gangrene
05/11/04 09:59 PM
24.6.228.14
|
Quote:
Omnimech - POD (not item, weapon, slot or critical) (LOCATION - very important here) modifier -4, time 30 minutes, failed result means taken twice as long.
This does not help your argument, as it does not imply that there is only one pod per location, only that some locations are less accessible than others. Items and weapons are pods.
Quote:
As to the importance of the situation, it is important if you play a campaign.
Not really, because I would use my own campaign rules, not FASA's. I never have understood why fans need every aspect of the universe spelled out to them.
Quote:
Ahh, but this is only entirely true of the varied ordinance within specific aerospace units.
That does not change the fact that those parts which are interchangeable are made that way in the factory, not in the field.
Gangrene
|
Greyslayer
05/11/04 10:43 PM
216.14.192.233
|
Quote:
This does not help your argument, as it does not imply that there is only one pod per location, only that some locations are less accessible than others. Items and weapons are pods.
That was the whole point of the rest of that paragraph and the next. Armour, a per location (for rolling purposes)item can have anywhere from about 1 to 50-odd points to replace, yet you have to spend 15 minutes per point. At no point was a pod ever claimed to be plural within a location or it would have added in the location section 30 minutes per pod
Quote:
Not really, because I would use my own campaign rules, not FASA's. I never have understood why fans need every aspect of the universe spelled out to them.
No but it would help if the universe you set the campaign in at least faintly resembles the rules to which are in the books they would be using. The more custom rules the more that you have to get the players to understand.
Quote:
That does not change the fact that those parts which are interchangeable are made that way in the factory, not in the field.
When battletech reflects the real world, give me a call. That being said the understanding of english should still be the same.
|
Gangrene
05/11/04 10:59 PM
24.6.228.14
|
Quote:
That was the whole point of the rest of that paragraph and the next . . . At no point was a pod ever claimed to be plural within a location or it would have added in the location section 30 minutes
The "per pod" is implied in its singular designation.
POD: 30 minutes i.e. 30 minutes per pod
Quote:
When battletech reflects the real world, give me a call.
So when your real-world example backfires, you ditch it? Or is it your desire to make Battletech logic more asinine than it needs to be? There is no reason to interpret omnimech weapons as being anything other than built with universal connections out of the factory.
Gangrene
|
Greyslayer
05/12/04 04:44 PM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
There is no reason to interpret omnimech weapons as being anything other than built with universal connections out of the factory.
Ummm, who said anything about make weapons specifically for omnimechs? In fact the only part of any book that saves your argument is not clear that the claim that weapons are made specifically for omnimechs. That argument also destroys the knowledge of battletech for whomever wrote that stupid fluff for the blackjack. Any omnimech can normally use IS or Clan weaponry, they don't have a limit and it doesn't have to be specifically made for omnimechs as far as I can tell.
That information also contradicts itself within a paragraph or two, but that isn't far from normal with battletech.
It is the only spot you will see mention of items as an individual pod and I was waiting for someone to actually bring up that information since it wasn't hard to find. I had already used the counter argument for it, that being in adding an item which causes the removal of lower and hand actuators you would have to spend 1/2 and hour for each actuator and each item that would've been attached via that assembly. Also it would shoot down the reason why clans field certain variants of a mech. If they have the equipment there is NOTHING stopping them from just slotting in the equipment to make that variant. Dire Wolf 'Widowmaker' is now common as since everyone has the equipment to just slot in... scenario book Tukayyid is a farce then, you just roll for the mech and any version in existance at the time is yours.
Quote:
The "per pod" is implied in its singular designation.
POD: 30 minutes i.e. 30 minutes per pod
Interesting that they use (location) then, next to Omnimech - pod. That says the whole location, not just a singular item. I haven't got the absolute latest of rulebooks so maybe it was a typo (which I doubt).
|
Gnome76
05/12/04 06:09 PM
68.12.224.9
|
Quote:
Any omnimech can normally use IS or Clan weaponry
Although Combat Operations tells us that ammunition is not cross-compatible between the two.
|
Gangrene
05/13/04 01:35 AM
24.6.228.14
|
Quote:
Ummm, who said anything about make weapons specifically for omnimechs?
Do you know anything about how modularity works in the real world? All parts that are modular are built to a set standard, which is in most cases far different than a part customized for a certain machine. Omnimech weapons are interchangeable, so they are all built to a set interface standard. There is no guarantee for this with customized parts.
Here, you want some fluff proof:
BMR pg. 83: "Items to be used as Omnimech pods . . ."
Thus items and weapons are pods.
BMR pg. 83: ". . . such items receive an additional cost multiplier of 1.25."
. . . because they are built to a standard that makes them universal (modular).
BMR pg. 85: Note that pods DO NOT fall under the customization rules. Thus pods are NOT customized the same way one would customize a regular mech. This is because items ARE pods.
BMR pg. 85: Clan/Inner Sphere Incompatibility
Replacing components with similar components from the other tech base requires a +4 to the replacement roll. This is because the equipment is built to different standards. Note that this modifier is ignored when customizating a standard mech. The paragraph at the top of pg.87 clearly indicates that omnimech weapons are not the same as fixed components, such as weapons in standard designs.
Quote:
Any omnimech can normally use IS or Clan weaponry, they don't have a limit and it doesn't have to be specifically made for omnimechs as far as I can tell.
See my comment above. Clan and IS equipment are not compatible.
Quote:
Interesting that they use (location) then, next to Omnimech - pod. That says the whole location, not just a singular item.
You're making too much out of that one statement. It does not indicate that items and weapons are not pods, only that it takes 30 minutes to load up a location. It is just as easily construed as a rule for ease of play then as fluff evidence of your system.
Gangrene
|
wartang
05/14/04 01:41 AM
209.201.75.36
|
heres a thought when tonnage is set aside for pod space,hmm how bout this as an example
this is a costum design right off the top of my headfor give me for any errors that i may miss and that i may do it in an odd order
nova cat refit
merc unit the lost mech lance
80 tonns
3.5 int endo
8 engine
2.8 gyro
12 2 er ppc
25 heat sinks double 25
12 tonn sheild
79.6 total weight
ok the fluff is a nova was captured with one arm blown. off the right arm was damaged almost to the point of uselessness. one engineer read one to many king aurthor books and threw on a slab of armor off of a orion ( he shall remain nameless gary caugfh) as a shield. when he did so he uncoved a pod for the prime veriant but it was only the right arm. a few weeks later after fixing the old right arm
the pilot came in hot right arm badly damaged going over to his stall the pilot jetisons the right arm pod
and places the right arm stub into a veriant c right arm pod and runs back out to join the fight agian
i kinda see a quick disconect like on a air hose,but thats me. hmm i wonder how well that would work
i love this game
|
Gnome76
05/14/04 02:02 AM
68.12.224.9
|
Wow, my head started hurting when I tried to read that.
|