Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92772 - 06/09/04 11:13 AM (147.160.136.10)
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Now the clans are all about war, go out of their way to even genetically breed troops just for it. they have extreme training and are in great shape and hone their skills. so few can get out of sibkos from many clans because its so hard.
Yes, the Clans train hard, and I see why you like them.
However, what I still see about the Clans is the following:
*They get minor skill advantages out of that life long training, about -1 to average gunnery and piloting skills. An average of 3/4 piloting/gunnery is useful, but it's not an awesome advantage.
*Their extra skills from all that hard training and genetic engineering contribute little to their military victories - their technology (not a result of hard work by warriors) accounts for most of it.
*The Clans squander their advantages with tactics meant for primitive, chest-beating, self-glorifying duels. The Clans were slow to realize that "war" is not the same as "trials" and "duels," despite having grown from the most powerful military ever formed by humanity, the Star League Defense Force.
*Further, the Clans have awesome tools for genetic engineering and create some incredible engineered animals. However, they squander those tools when it comes to human engineering. Their engineered warriors are rarely much beyond human average. Elementals hardly push the boundaries of genetic engineering. They're big and strong, but that gives them a 1pt armor advantage in standard Clan battle armor compared to standard Inner Sphere battle armor, and no real advantages elsewhere in the BT board game. Again, it's the Clan weapons that carry the day, not the warriors.
Inner Sphere militaries might not train as much, but their soldiers (not warriors) are nearly as good as the Clan warriors - which indicates the Clan warriors are wasting a lot of effort. Further, they apparently stayed awake in Military History & Strategy 101 and know to fight to win with all available tools, rather than to fight for Clan-style honor.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Cray]
#92774 - 06/09/04 11:39 AM (216.14.192.234)
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Quote:
*They get minor skill advantages out of that life long training, about -1 to average gunnery and piloting skills. An average of 3/4 piloting/gunnery is useful, but it's not an awesome advantage.
Price: MadCat with elite pilot, 100s of millions of c-bills.
Ambushed by a Urbanmech totting an AC 20 from Behind the MadCat... Priceless 
I'm curious as to how Jstallion got into the game and whether he plays long-time players who use 3025 technology. Ask Nightward about being beaten up by 'old-timers' in tourneys and such  .
As a generalisation Clan Players (those who specifically prefer playing Clans) generally suck tactically, they rely far too much on their advantages without thinking of the advantages of the IS players or their own units disadvantages. They quite often rely either on the TC/Pulse combo or the blind hope those ER PPCs will take someone's head/leg/limb off with most shots. Though it happens in the novels and in dodgey cartoons the reality is that they usually fail to win.....
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Cray]
#92775 - 06/09/04 01:21 PM (69.244.182.44)
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No, I meant the warrior caste of all...16? 17? 18? Clans total 110,500 warriors
if thats the fact then all i can ask is what date in battletech was that accurate? many of the books came out when i was in elementary school and events in BT have happened since so those may no longer be the truth if u got that from the invading clans book etc.
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Then what's the point of debating this?. I can debate what's in the books, because that's common ground. You can make up whatever you want in your home game and I can't say boo about it, because it's your home game.
i misunderstood you. i thought u meant "home game" as in only CBT and not MWDA also. when i said no i only mean my home game it was meaning CBT.
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Because you raised the issue of why I dislike the Clans. Their offenses against plausibility
i raised the point because you brought up the plausibility. BT itself isnt plausible so why try to pick and choose which in it youd like to think is plausible?
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The Ghost Bears, for their part, were so upset at few hundred dead warriors in a few successful rebellions that they were going to exterminate tens of billions of people in one sweep. There was no option for surrender given once the genocide began.
of course they had an option for surrender, they couldve stopped and nothing wouldve come of it. the ghost bears, and clans while im at it, might as well be aliens to the IS because their ways are so different. other than some grumbelings after an absorption, the clans accept defeat and deal with it. the IS on the other hand cant deal with it and dont want to be conquered, i cant blame them but since the ghost bears and clans are so different and dont have to deal with such things before, so they probably overreacted since they hadn't dealt with that before.
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Those operations (and the supporting Task Force Serpent) have nothing to do with MWDA and, in fact, predate the Jihad by a decade.
yes they predate it and then in i believe 3067 CBT pretty much ends. anyone with the power could write in anything and change BT. The way they did chose i dont like, MWDA can have aliens come in, inslave humanity and dance around for all i care.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92776 - 06/09/04 01:26 PM (69.244.182.44)
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Good thing we were only talking about Jade Falcon,
regarless, other clans did the same and youre trying to target the falcons for "instability" when theyre not the only ones conducting the things u judge them by.
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Unfortunately I cannot remember the source, but elementals do suffer from arthritis and due to their size the medicine doesn't do much for them really.
ive never read anything of the such, and so i cant comment
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It may not be the loss of the factory itself that cost them but rather the loss of the technology involved in the running of the larger factories that cost the IS the most. Again this was the work of Comstar, either directly or indirectly.
thats what i was getting at, the factories go and so does the technology. comstar had to deal with some of it, but cant take credit for it all.
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How did they learn it in the first place?
nicholas kerensky and i believe a few aides came up with the trials, regardless of where they got it from those trials are what they follow, and that allows them to get tech w/o destroying it. even if the IS were to have come up with it, they obviously didnt follow it too well because again, the Succesion Wars.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Cray]
#92777 - 06/09/04 01:27 PM (69.244.182.44)
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yeah i mainly centered on the warriors, but i mentioned striving to be good at something, same case for the Clan techs. they strove to advance and they did the same ways the warriors did and probably more so.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92778 - 06/09/04 01:32 PM (69.244.182.44)
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I'm curious as to how Jstallion got into the game and whether he plays long-time players who use 3025 technology.
I got into it from getting mechwarrior the PC game free with a computer when i was in kindergarten. No i dont play long time players. the board game is fun but it doesnt create the events that happen in the storyline of CBT, the novels/sourcebooks/field manuals do. so although the boardgame is a big part of CBT, it doesnt dictate how things really happen. If the novels say the grey death legion got beat up, and u play a scenario of it on the boardgame as the GDL, and u win, that doesnt change what actually happened.
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Price: MadCat with elite pilot, 100s of millions of c-bills.
Ambushed by a Urbanmech totting an AC 20 from Behind the MadCat... Priceless
and i could say the same thing about a clan light mech vs an IS assault mech, so whats your point? yeah technology isnt everything nor is the training, but whether or not u can ambush someone isnt what we're debating. Plus, what if that urbie pilot missed? 
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Tzu
Recruit
Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 35
Loc: GA of USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92801 - 06/09/04 05:46 PM (68.219.197.209)
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Quote:
Unfortunately I cannot remember the source, but elementals do suffer from arthritis and due to their size the medicine doesn't do much for them really.
I don't know about the arthritis part in particular, but the Warden Clans FM, page 93, talks about the CO of the GB 4th Claw, Star Colonel Isaac, being huge even by elemental standards. "Standing nearly three meters tall and weighing more than 500 kilograms, it is said he can defeat other elementals when they are in battle armor and he is not. His massive size is something of a handicap, however, as even clan scientists cannot counter the stress on his spine. Now suffering chronic back pain, Isaac is rummored to be suicidal, diving into the midst of battles in the hopes of dying with honor before he is retired from duty."
I haven't read every book in CBT, but I've read quite a few and that's the only place I've ever seen mention the side effects of being an elemental. And although discussing the plausibility of BT is semi-interesting, I prefer the orginal topic of this thread, which I believe was writing a better timeline for post-3067.
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Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Tzu]
#92805 - 06/09/04 07:52 PM (69.244.182.44)
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yeah i wanted to know people's oppinions/knowledge of the adder-spirit war on york but no one responded to that 
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92807 - 06/09/04 08:06 PM (202.138.42.227)
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First thing: Politeness, elementary spelling and grammar. You mightn't be trying to flme or troll, but the way you're saying things isn't helping you cause.
"regarless, other clans did the same and youre trying to target the falcons for "instability" when theyre not the only ones conducting the things u judge them by."
What "instability", exactly? The Jade Falcons engaged in the Coventry Campaign and kicked arse, though admittedly things like the Red Corsaid episode and their performance against Operation Audacity indicates they still have much to be desired. Vendervahn Chistu and Elias Crichell, their Khans before Marthe Pryde and Samantha were lunatics.
The Wolves, however, have ALWAYS benifitted from exceptional leadership- the Kerensky and Ward Khans, the foresight of the Winsons- remember, the Wolves are the Clan who deployed the Wwolf Dragoons, who annihilated Inner Sphere opposition during Operation Revival, and who trashed the best the Com Guard had to offer on Tukayyid. But for Jade Falcon manipulation leading to the Refusal War (and further manipulation that saw the Wolf Clan "loose", even though they WON the Trial), the Wolves would still be the pre-eminent Clan and quite likely have lead a renewed Invasion to the Inner Sphere after the fall of the Truce. And you can bet that the Jaguars would not have suffered as they did had Khan Ulric Kerensky still been in charge of the Clans.
Even the Wolves-in-Exile and Crusader Wolves are strong Clans. They were split by political maneuvering from the Falcons, and remain apart because Vladimir Ward and Phelan Kell hate each other so much.
The dichotomy in the Clan leadership is over the Warden/Crusader intepretations of Kerensky's writings. Admittedly other Caste concerns do play a part, but except for Clans like the Diamond Sharks, these are minor.
"ive never read anything of the such, and so i cant comment"
The Clan books state outright that technology and medicine like that are used exclusively by the Warrior Caste. That's not to say they just let people die, but if you loose an arm in the mines, you'll get a Cybernetic replacement, not a Myomer one. Loose an eye, you get the cheapie replacement, not the Warrior-level one.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92808 - 06/09/04 08:12 PM (202.138.42.227)
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Be nice. And remember I outplaced you at Maelstrom II, and these days usually get the same win/loss ratio.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92809 - 06/09/04 08:21 PM (202.138.42.227)
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Actually, it's pretty easy for the Clans to control a planet- they control the entry to their Occupation Zones.
Unless we're talking about a military strike of some kind, the only time a ship arrives in-system is when the Clans want it to.
So, unless a world is entirely self-sufficient (highly unlikely) they can just all stop eating, drinking, or being supplied with the other niceties of life.
The same way the Inner Sphere brings rebellious worlds to heel.
The added advantage of being able to turn entire cities into glass from orbit is nice, but hardly essential.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Nightward]
#92810 - 06/09/04 08:25 PM (69.244.182.44)
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First thing: Politeness, elementary spelling and grammar. You mightn't be trying to flme or troll, but the way you're saying things isn't helping you cause.
you might want to proofread before commenting on someone else's grammar with a poorly written sentence.
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What "instability", exactly?
are you targeting that at me? because its Re:JStallion. but im the one defending the falcons....
he had said that they were instable, not me.
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The Wolves, however, have ALWAYS benifitted from exceptional leadership
no one commented on the wolves' leadership
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even though they WON the Trial
how in the slightest way did they win? the refusal war they lost, thats a fact, it went exactly as the JF khans had planned except for letting phelan and his portion slip into the inner sphere, even then they needed the kell hounds to help'em. the JFs put numerous 2nd line units and solhama units in the way of the wolves' front line ones; they would lose their 2nd line units and all but they were grinding away at the wolves' front line units and then all at once beat the hell out of them. the JF khans killed ulric in an ambush (natasha was already dead at this point by joanna on twycross), they defeated their forces and absorbed them. only until after the refusal war, i believe 2-3 days, when vlad was recovered did they bring back the wolves in his own refusal against the falcon kahns. he killed them both. that was still after the war ended though, so i dont get how you could say they won.
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They were split by political maneuvering from the Falcons
thats crap and you know it. there had been a rift in clan wolf between crusader and warden views for a long time. ulric/natasha/phelan and a good portion of the wolf clan were wardens which it had mainly been for its history. only once the falcons beat the wolves in the refusal war and their khans (save phelan) had died did the crusader portion rise to power. al the falcons did was kill the warden khans they had, nothing too political about that.
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The Clan books state outright that technology and medicine like that are used exclusively by the Warrior Caste. That's not to say they just let people die, but if you loose an arm in the mines, you'll get a Cybernetic replacement, not a Myomer one. Loose an eye, you get the cheapie replacement, not the Warrior-level one.
that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. we were talking about elementals having arthritis.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92817 - 06/09/04 11:36 PM (203.134.40.130)
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"you might want to proofread before commenting on someone else's grammar with a poorly written sentence."
Excellent work, Mr. Troll. May I have another?
"how in the slightest way did they win? the refusal war they lost, thats a fact, it went exactly as the JF khans had planned except for letting phelan and his portion slip into the inner sphere, even then they needed the kell hounds to help'em. the JFs put numerous 2nd line units and solhama units in the way of the wolves' front line ones; they would lose their 2nd line units and all but they were grinding away at the wolves' front line units and then all at once beat the hell out of them. the JF khans killed ulric in an ambush (natasha was already dead at this point by joanna on twycross), they defeated their forces and absorbed them. only until after the refusal war, i believe 2-3 days, when vlad was recovered did they bring back the wolves in his own refusal against the falcon kahns. he killed them both. that was still after the war ended though, so i dont get how you could say they won. "
Largely because of the way they were winning each Trial they fought. Go read "Malicious Intent" and "I am Jade Falcon", it's all in there. The Falcon khans stayed at home (Chistu's littele excursion to Wotan to TAG Ulric aside) and manipulated the Council of Khans. The Falcons waited until the Wolf Khans left to fight in the Trial of Refusal, so they'd have no-one to represent them at a Kuraltai. At which point they fabricated their "evidence"; since the assembled Khans thought the Wolves were too dangerous with Ulric in command they decided to Abjure the Wolves.
Again, it's all in Malicious Intent. I am Jade Falcon, and several other books which I can't be bothered to reference right now. The Wolves were winning, so the Falcons cheated in every possible way.
"thats crap and you know it. there had been a rift in clan wolf between crusader and warden views for a long time. ulric/natasha/phelan and a good portion of the wolf clan were wardens which it had mainly been for its history. only once the falcons beat the wolves in the refusal war and their khans (save phelan) had died did the crusader portion rise to power. al the falcons did was kill the warden khans they had, nothing too political about that."
If you look at your User Terms, it says "Offensive Language Is Forbidden". Swear one more time in this thread and I will be PMing Slayer about it.
The Wolf Clan split occurred because of where people were, not because of what faction they favoured. The majority of the Wolf Clan Touman was Warden, with the Crusaders concentrated in the Galaxies that were fighting closer to home. The Warden Galaxies were fighting nearer the front and were caught out during the Abjuration.
If you want to argue, at least get your facts straight.
"that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. we were talking about elementals having arthritis. "
No, because you claimed that the Clans would provide their medical treatments to all the Castes equally. Such is not the case.
Again, get you facts straight before you try to argue.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Nightward]
#92825 - 06/10/04 03:01 AM (68.200.108.127)
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Actually, it's pretty easy for the Clans to control a planet- they control the entry to their Occupation Zones.
Sure, if the invaders are polite enough to announce themselves and their intentions - like other Clan invaders.
But the Clans do not have the manpower, ships, or fighters to monitor all the entry and egress points to their Inner Sphere occupation zones. A few hundred troops per planet is not enough garrison possible jump points, provide fighter coverage at the planet, and provide ground troops.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Nightward]
#92827 - 06/10/04 04:21 AM (69.244.182.44)
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Largely because of the way they were winning each Trial they fought
regardless of how they won, it was accepted by the other khans that they did win. oh and ive read both those books, in fact i looked up some things in malicious intent last night.
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since the assembled Khans thought the Wolves were too dangerous with Ulric in command they decided to Abjure the Wolves.
nope. ulric was dead when the wolves were abjured. the JFs absorbed the wolves they fought except phelan's wolves, that way they abjured the wolves-in-exile only. if they hadnt then those wolves wouldve still been considered jade falcons, since they absorbed the wolf clan, and the falcon khans didnt want it falcons vs falcons. the wolves ulric died with however BECAME JADE FALCONS. they were not abjured.
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the wolves were winning
you said u read the books that had the refusal war in it right? and hopefully u read what i said before commenting on it. the falcons tossed 2nd line and solhama units in the path of the front line wolf force. so yeah the wolves were taking out a lot more and appeared to be winning, but they got windeled down to a handful force by the time the falcons threw their own front line units into the fray. once that happened the wolves were beaten and abosrbed (again, except for phelan's wolves since they were abjured and not considered apart of the wolf clan anymore). yeah throwing all those 2nd line and solhama units is wimpish and sad. but it worked and what we're arguing about is whether the falcons or wolves won, when clearly the wolves lost, theres nothing supporting a victory for them, only phelan's wolves won in any way possible because they escaped.
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If you look at your User Terms, it says "Offensive Language Is Forbidden". Swear one more time in this thread and I will be PMing Slayer about it.
saying something you said is crap, because its a lie, is not offensive, or at least shouldnt be taken that way. if i were calling you names and such then yes, but saying your lies are crap isnt.
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If you want to argue, at least get your facts straight.
back at u, i could started quoting the books if u want.
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No, because you claimed that the Clans would provide their medical treatments to all the Castes equally.
i never said equally, just that they would
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Tzu
Recruit
Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 35
Loc: GA of USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92840 - 06/10/04 09:32 AM (68.219.201.195)
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In response to this current flare-up, both of you are correct on some points. Nightward is correct in stating that Clan Wolf won the Trial of Refusal, this refering to the initial trial on Colmar. That is the world where the Falcons deemed to defend the council's decision, where the Trial would be held. However Ulric, after winning that, expanded it into the Refusal War and took the fight to the Falcons.
Although, as JStallion points out, Wolf ultimately lost, Ulric succeeded in his goal to forestall the renewed invasion, and made sure Phelan survived to counter any Falcon incursions into spheroid territory. While this loss also resulted in the Falcons manipulating the refusal into an absorbtion(sp?), the timely discovery of Vlad saved the day for the Jade Wolves.
In regards to spelling, grammar, etc, let's just all try to keep the minimum number of typos we can, and it helps to have that little box checked to preview our posts.
In regards to JStallion, although an Adder absorbtion of BS (wow, that works two ways ) would be nice, it most likely wouldn't happen for some time. Adder has to finish getting their act together after absorbing Burrock, and although they have a foothold on York, it would be difficult for them to gain much headway. Adder may have 11 galaxies to the Spirits 6, but they have many worlds and enclaves besides their one on York to protect, while the Spirits have just York. Usually the Clans will designate only a few clusters as necessary garrison for a world (let's not get into the feasibility of that right now), where as BS has 27(!) clusters on one world. Since they see zellbrigen as a optional when defending their territory, you can expect the Spirits to use all available assets to defend themselves from the Adders. Even with superior tech (more Omnis), Adder would be hard pressed to round up forces needed to overwhelm the Spirits alone. Now maybe a coalition to take them out would work, like contract bidding with the Horses in exchange for an enclave or resource rights or something. 
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Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Nightward]
#92841 - 06/10/04 09:54 AM (216.14.192.233)
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Be nice. And remember I outplaced you at Maelstrom II, and these days usually get the same win/loss ratio.
*Rant on*Don't talk to me about that tourney, nearly left the group because of that.
I had spent a good part of a month ensuring one of the group's programmers understood the fairly basic scoring method employed by Mechforce for their tourneys a few years back. I had designed my armies entirely to be BV light and going into 3058 or less lance on lance with only 170 tons of the 250, I couldn't completely gut armies but I did under mechforce rules 'win' both my games. Unfortunately all that time I spent explaining the system was wasted and the scoring system was completely screwed up by the program the guy wrote. I didn't get home until about 11pm on the sunday night after working a 12-hour nightshift friday night, played the convention all day saturday, on the saturday after seeing the abortion of a program I spent part of my 12-hour saturday night shift knocking up an excel spreadsheet that did everything and more than the program written by the programmer for the tourney. It was rejected (its not as though I can 'dodgey' a simple excel spreadsheet), for the bug-ridden program that didn't fulfil the objectives of the tourney. In fact it was completely false if they even believed they were remotely close to a mechforce styled tourney. Since I was unable to go home (and get some sleep, which would've helped) and change my forces or have reserve forces for the second day in case my spreadsheet was rejected I was stuck with the armies I had brought along (I didn't have extra mechs with me that weekend) in the end I was 'middle of the pack' that weekend but was last person eliminated in the bloodname after the last fight was in a vaccuum (gee how much do they have to push me? I have never won a fight in a vaccuum, it was at least 9pm on the sunday night so I was going over 2 1/2 days without sleep and my opponent, Doug, was using his little dodgey wooden dice again...). *Rant off*
Later I ran my 3025con to show how a tourney should be run, the scoring system was completely open. The maps were preselected but did not force units out of the game from the start (eg no swamp maps as players could not use tracked or wheeled vehicles if that was the case). Once you were given a number you just kept going through your list and played the other numbers on your list, at the table number specified on the sheet. Only complaint was the force values were quite low which was due to it being a 1-day tourney and needed at least 5 to 6 rounds for a fair amount of games to select a winner from.
If only source material in battletech was that straightforward at times 
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92843 - 06/10/04 10:15 AM (216.14.192.233)
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I got into it from getting mechwarrior the PC game free with a computer when i was in kindergarten. No i dont play long time players. the board game is fun but it doesnt create the events that happen in the storyline of CBT, the novels/sourcebooks/field manuals do. so although the boardgame is a big part of CBT, it doesnt dictate how things really happen. If the novels say the grey death legion got beat up, and u play a scenario of it on the boardgame as the GDL, and u win, that doesnt change what actually happened.
As far as battletech is concerned the boardgame is it. the universe is fluff to create an optional setting for players to use. The Master Rules/Compendium/RoW/Whatever you want to call the main rulebook really doesn't even deal with the factions or history of forces except in the Master Rules as a generic table to roll random forces off. You could be playing Ewoktech as far as the setting is concerned and it wouldn't need to make much difference to the tabletop game at all.
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and i could say the same thing about a clan light mech vs an IS assault mech, so whats your point? yeah technology isnt everything nor is the training, but whether or not u can ambush someone isnt what we're debating. Plus, what if that urbie pilot missed?
The point was more the value of the forces pitted. A clan trained pilot in a clan Light mech would probably still cost more in c-bills/resources to field than an IS Assault mech... Plus urbies don't miss, they are just 'walking fire' up to the target. Just stay still another 10 seconds will ya .
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92846 - 06/10/04 10:43 AM (216.14.192.234)
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Quote:
yeah i mainly centered on the warriors, but i mentioned striving to be good at something, same case for the Clan techs. they strove to advance and they did the same ways the warriors did and probably more so.
I don't think you will find technicians 'genetically bred' to turn the spanner any better than any IS tech would be able to do. Clan techs are second-class citizens. Innersphere ones are paid workers who in some places are highly valued depending on the knowledge and skills they bring. About the only advantage is the clan tech's experience at repairing clan equipment, they may end up considering their extensive use of omni-equipment little more than 'plug and play' experts than true techs
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Cray]
#92847 - 06/10/04 10:46 AM (216.14.192.234)
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I'd have to agree with Cray here. Clan forces are too thin on the ground to be able to hold forces back from raiding a planet and I don't think space assets would be able to stop a covert force using a pirate jump unless the clan force was very lucky.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92850 - 06/10/04 11:36 AM (69.244.182.44)
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i never said the techs were genetically bred, just said they strive to do what theyre supposed to. while in the IS techs have a family, spare time, pretty much a life, the clans dont really and so more of their time would be concentrated towards the task at hand. was it not you who said how few troops sibkos get out? how many of those dropouts turn into techs/ scientists? and theyre genetically bred.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Tzu]
#92851 - 06/10/04 11:37 AM (69.244.182.44)
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Quote:
Nightward is correct in stating that Clan Wolf won the Trial of Refusal, this refering to the initial trial on Colmar.
good point, i guess i overlooked he mentioned the trial and not the war. thought he only meant the war. because the JFs did win the war and not the trial.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92854 - 06/10/04 11:41 AM (69.244.182.44)
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Quote:
As far as battletech is concerned the boardgame is it. the universe is fluff to create an optional setting for players to use.
when we're debating the history and storyline of it and how that would play out, we're only concentrating on the fluff. its not like you play the board game to see if u can get covert troops in on a planet and do terrorist acts and try to start rebellion. the board game wasnt brought up at all until you mentioned it, no one was debating about it.
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: JStallion]
#92857 - 06/10/04 11:53 AM (216.14.192.234)
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So how do the lowers castes reproduce? Its part of the reason they are treated so poorly, their closeness to normality. Families enter into the picture once you leave the warrior caste, even the Jade Falcon trilogy showed as much when Aidan lost his trial he became a tech then started to settle and try to have a family type life (well as much as you can when you're a clan warrior come technician). Again with the social life, the clanners drink, they play sports and enjoy other social pursuits.
'Genetically bred', they were genetically bred for war. This does not mean they are better than a 'normal' person at other, non-war related, pursuits.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Back on topic...
[Re: masdog5]
#92863 - 06/10/04 01:51 PM (147.160.136.10)
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My first draft of this blossomed into a multi-page monster, so let me layout my timeline and events:
GIVENS
1) alt-WoB is not as well-armed as is often theorized for MWDA; it's a good match for the Comguards, though
2) There is no real Thomas Marik; he did die
ALTERNATE BACKGROUND
1) The FWL finds out about WoB skimming of funds in the 3060s and evidence implicating Thomas Marik's aid in the embezzlement. Riots and political upset result. There are many happy scenes of WoB acolytes being lynched by angry FWL mobs. Some FWL member-states nationalize their HPGs; others call in Comstar.
2) WoB retreats to Terra from the FWL.
ALTERNATE FUTURE EVENTS
1) Terrans are unhappy with WoB, particularly WoB's militarization. WoB may control Terra's media, but not its computer networks, and half-correct, half-bullshit rumors tarnish WoB's reputation among Terrans until the Terrans try some protests, general strikes, etc. Several hundred unarmed Terrans get machinegunned for their efforts, inspiring a revolution on Terra.
2) Several thousand WoB troops are inadequate to control Terra when the secular "Bureau of Terran Affairs" (WoB/Comstar's government for Terra) isn't cooperating, but several thousand WoB troops are capable of atrocities (orbital bombardment of Manhattan and Tokyo Arcologies) that lead Comstar to abandon the FRR and try to liberate Terra.
3) The Comstar/WoB "Civil War" begins, with both sides battering each other to pulp - primarily in space and around Terran space ports. Neither side has the manpower for large-area conquests or defenses, and so the first battles of the Civil War - the initial assaults and attempts to secure space heads - are the largest and most costly. The Houses all sit out the war, except for lukewarm material aid to Comstar. They are all exhausted or involved with their own problems.
4) Because of loss of manpower to the Comguards, WoB "temporarily" removes troops guarding its Terran military factories, factories which are staffed by Terrans. The Terran workers seek new owners and administration from other Terrans, the kind that are pissed at WoB. Comstar happily provides the green Terran militias with advisors and training. While Comstar would prefer the Terrans send their troops to fill out depleted Comguard ranks, Comstar is so happy to have allies (with all those self-serving Houses just sitting out the fight) that it respects the Terrans' wishes to have independent units.
5) By the end of the Comstar/WoB Civil War (3070; WoB defeated), the Comguards are a shattered shell of their former selves (and they never completely recovered from Tukayyid or the WoB Schism, either). The Terran legions, though ill-trained, are filled with veterans and grow by the day. The Terrans evict Comstar and announce their independence.
6) During the Civil War, the Inner Sphere mostly recognized that Comstar and WoB were both going down for the count and nationalized or privatized Comstar/WoB assets, following the pattern set in the FWL. The Capellans, who don't think they can train HPG techs easily and fast enough to preserve the Capellan HPG network, remain "loyal" customers of Comstar. Sun Tzu welcomes the evicted dregs of the Comguards & Comstar personnel into the Confederation. Comstar and its high tech knowledge are welcome Capellan "guests."
7) Starting in 3069, "independents" and "unionist" factions of the FWL begin falling into civil war. Disgust with the Mariks and external manipulation has the FWL's member-states splintering away. The low key FWL Civil War simmers for ten years.
8 ) The FRR quietly joins the Ghost Bears sometime during the Comstar/WoB Civil War, forming the Ghost Bear Dominion. The GDB remains occupied with Combine border spats (and internal rebellion on non-FRR, former-Combine planets) throughout the 3070s.
9) By 3070, the other Clans are well aware that Terra no longer has its Comguard/WoB protectors, that the Tukayyid truce is over, and that Terra is not a "signatory" of the Great Refusal. Warden/Crusader and Expansionist/Isolationist factions tie up any attempt to determine who is ilClan (i.e., conquer Terra) until 3073.
10) Terra forges trade ties with the Inner Sphere during the early 3070s, and recommends coordination against the Clans. The Terrans are well aware of what the prize of Tukayyid was, and are quite happy with their independence. The Terrans figure that, one way or another, the Clans will be coming for them. Whatever the outcome of that war, the Terrans plan to bleed the Clans. If the hurt Clans are those occupying stretches of the Inner Sphere, that would be something that certain Houses could take great advantage of.
11) In 3073, the overconfident Hells Horses show the Clans just how many warships the Terran-controlled Titan shipyards can build between 3069 and 3073. (Not many, but enough to deal with the Horse's invasion.)
The Wolves try at the same time as the Horses, but accept Terra's suggestion for a proxy battle on an isolated, airless world light-years away from Terra's SDS network. Abundant Terran use of LRMs, mines, artillery, bombs and LBXs rack up the Wolf body count through dishonorable hull punctures. The Wolves concede being outsmarted and retreat - they only lost half their small bidding force. There will be another round, oh yes.
The Jade Falcons decide the Terrans are dishonorable Spheroid surats, and attack Terra in force from a very close pirate point (Terra's L4 Lagrange point). The Falcons delayed their attack by weeks to learn from the Horses' and Wolves' failures (or let those Clans get weakened so the Falcons can stomp them, too, should they succeed). The Falcons learn how many Caspars the re-awakened SDS automated shipyards can produce between 3069 and 3073, and how many more were mothballed after the SLDF Liberation of Terra in the 2770s. (Not many, but enough when combined with fully armed and operational SDS battle sta-...er, ground bases.)
12) Terrans inform the Lyrans of the reduced state of the Jade Falcon touman, triggering years of Lyran raids against the Jade Falcon occupation zone. The goal of the attacks is simply to bleed the Falcon touman, bleed the Falcon industry, and keep the Falcons running in circles chasing down those very effective Loki infiltrators.
[pant pant pant]
More later.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Tzu
Recruit
Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 35
Loc: GA of USA
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Re: Back on topic...
[Re: Cray]
#92867 - 06/10/04 02:54 PM (68.219.201.195)
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Back on topic indeed. Very well put together Cray, but I have a few questions. First, what is the FS doing during all of this, they don't really get mentioned at all so far in your story? Also, what happens to the Nova Cats? IIRC, weren't they part of Comstar? I realize you concentrated on fluffing out the CS/WoB civil war, and hopefully next you'll expand a bit into what the other houses are doing besides annexing HPGs. Maybe thats to come in the "more later" part. 
As for me, I'd like to come up with what the home clans are doing during all of this. They can't just be twiddling their thumbs and quietly raiding each other. Here's a few main ideas I've managed to come up with:
Star Adder becomes the new ruling home clan, and declares a trial of absorbtion against the Blood Spirits because they have deviated from the True Way(somehow ). The right to absorb the Spirits is given, of course, to the Star Adders, and they embark on a long campaign to root out every last Spirit on York ('til around 3068-9).
When the fighting is over, the Adders emerge victorious. Although they lost several clusters in the Absorbtion, contract bidding with the Horses allowed them to spread the damage over more units. In return for this tactical assistance, the Horses are granted an enclave on York as well as access to some of the Blood Spirit areospace pilot bloodlines, which they specially requested for reasons unknown. The Adders also gained from the captured Spirits, bringing their total number of galaxies to thirteen. Many Spirit bondsmen prove uncooporative, however, and they must be "disciplined", resulting in the Adders claming up for a short time to deal with this internal threat and get their affairs in order.
During this time, Hell's Horses scientists have reopened the vault on the defunct Protomech project. They make several breakthroughs, including the invention of a full body suit that acts much like EI, but can be worn just while piloting instead of implanted permanently, thus nearly eliminating the side effects of such a technology. They also pioneer a way to make XL engines(of sorts) for Protos, making them kilograms lighter and allowing more room for weapons and armor. Due to their highly experimental nature, however, a critical hit on these engines almost guarantees an engine overload(i.e. lots of fireworks ).
Using this revitalized technology the Horses attack Kindraa Kline, severely devastating their forces and only pulling back when the other Kindraa rally to defend Kline. The Mandrills recover several burnt out hulks of the Horse's new "heavy infantry", but they are too damaged to obtain any technological data from.
Clan Steel Viper, noticing the weakness the Jade Falcons recently brought upon themselves, strike out against many of the worlds located in the rear of their invasion corridor, forcing the Falcons to defend from raids on two fronts.
I'd like to flesh those out a bit more, as well as add some more stuff about the other clans. Maybe get Ice Hellion and/or Fire Mandrill absorbed somehow  . Feel free to contribute suggestions that could make this better.
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Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Back on topic...
[Re: Tzu]
#92870 - 06/10/04 03:24 PM (68.200.108.127)
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Quote:
Back on topic indeed. Very well put together Cray, but I have a few questions. First, what is the FS doing during all of this, they don't really get mentioned at all so far in your story?
Summary, not story.
The FS is busy in the late 3060s recovering from its Civil War. I haven't figured out what I want to do with it in the 3070s. I'm open to input.
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Also, what happens to the Nova Cats? IIRC, weren't they part of Comstar?
Part of the Combine, still sitting on the Ghost Bear Dominion border. I haven't decided what to do with them; I'm thinking "ink drop in milk" effect again.
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I realize you concentrated on fluffing out the CS/WoB civil war,
It was an alternate BT history idea I hadn't explored before. I'm prone to earlier changes, so I was having fun with the CS/WoB civil war. 
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and hopefully next you'll expand a bit into what the other houses are doing besides annexing HPGs. Maybe thats to come in the "more later" part.
The FWL is in uproar in the late 3060s over WoB and Fake Thomas. It spends the 3070s coming apart at the seams. Details are easy to imagine: a dozen notable but little feuding nation states fighting to stay together or for independence. The Capellans might get frisky, but the Capellans face (mostly) larger FWL member-states along its border, the ones that can slap the Cappies around. The Lyrans will be busy with the Jade Falcons for quite a while.
In the late 3060s, the Combine will be involved with the GBD. Sure, the ex-FRR worlds might get along with da Bears, and the Combine let the FRR worlds go in the 3030s. But the GBD was not given permission to annex those Combine worlds in the 3050s. Then there's the Draconis March pestering it for worlds lost in the Succession Wars (geez, get over it already). Then there's the worlds that the Jaguars impoverished - getting them back did about as much good for the Combine as annexing North Korea would do for South Korea's economy. The Combine will be busy, busy, busy.
The Capellans still have all sorts of worlds to recover from the 4th Succession War (not to mention the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd SWs), all sorts of distracted neighbors, and not enough in the way of resources to do much about it. Expect the Capellans to move into the New Colonial region, try to get worlds from the FWL, and maybe get stupidly frisky with the FedSuns.
The Magistracy of Canopus is on an upswing thanks to its partnership with the Capellans; I kinda liked the Liao-Centralla marriage in MWDA. The Magistracy isn't much for war and mayhem, so any fighting would probably be against the Marian Hegemony.
I still see the Ravens forming the Raven Alliance with the Outworld's Alliance, c3070. I can see the FedSuns forgetting about the Combine when the Ravens move in next door.
The Taurian Concordat has internal issues. No opinion on what happens there.
The Marian Hegemony is well-placed for growth now that WoB is out of the way. The Circinus Federation will probably go down for the count without WoB's aegis.
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Star Adder becomes the new ruling home clan, and declares a trial of absorbtion against the Blood Spirits because they have deviated from the True Way(somehow ). The right to absorb the Spirits is given, of course, to the Star Adders, and they embark on a long campaign to root out every last Spirit on York ('til around 3068-9).
I don't have much comment on your home world suggestions, except that I think you're underestimating the Spirits. They're even arming civilians and have some very fanatical warriors. "Clusters" may be an inadequate description of Adder warrior losses, unless the Adders resort to orbital bombardment. How would the Adders handle having their warriors walk down their newly acquired streets of York when Clan civilians start shooting at them?
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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JStallion
Sergeant
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: Back on topic...
[Re: Tzu]
#92887 - 06/10/04 07:46 PM (69.244.182.44)
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Quote:
Clan Steel Viper, noticing the weakness the Jade Falcons recently brought upon themselves
what weakness? the falcons were able to kick the vipers out of the IS even after their refusal war sufferings
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92906 - 06/11/04 12:42 AM (211.26.65.96)
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I wondered what happened that weekend. I remember thinkning it was quite a sub-par performance compared tyo what I'm used to seeing from you.
Any further word on NedCon 2004? Or perhaps we can try for ScottCon 2 this year. In 3025, Inferno ammo MEANS something...
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: You anti-clanners
[Re: Greyslayer]
#92908 - 06/11/04 12:45 AM (211.26.65.96)
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Yeah, but all I was talking about was pacifying a planet, not fighting a rebeliion.
Basically, all the Clans have to say is "If you enjoy eating, do what we say. Or no food for you."
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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