Another of those "who would win" arguements on a Grand Scale...

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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/24/04 01:15 PM
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I know I'm asking for trouble, but--- Being as subjective as possible and ignoring most of the technical differences, imagine every sci-fi license you can think of all finding themselves in a fictional galaxy. Now Imagine who would ally, who would die, and who would eventually find themselves conquered or alone on top of this galaxy. As much as I love BattleTech and Star Wars, I'd find it hard to believe even the Mighty Empire or the Clans could survive some of the fantastic stuff that's out there... Now, for fairness's sake, imagine each faction is at their strongest. This was once going to be the subject of quite a few "fan films" made by amateurs, since in reality there would be no way that all those license holders would agree and collaborate on a project that could possibly end in disaster for their creation at the hands of someone else's. The project I saw had included Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Robotek (I hear the boos already) Battletech, Battlestar Galactica, Transformers, Starship Troopers, Exo-Squad, Terminator, and Alien/Predator, with the eventual winners being the Empire, narrowly beating the Borg through simple attrition. Comments, Questions, Flames even? Hey, it said "off topic", so don't blame me...
Spartan
06/24/04 06:34 PM
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The Empire would win hands down. In fact, it would hardly be a contest. Why? www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ has it all spelled out.

That site it geared specifically towards Star Wars vs Star Trek but the arguments can be applied towards just about any other franchise with little to no revision.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
JStallion
06/24/04 08:29 PM
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Well that sums up this topic lol
Spartan
06/24/04 08:35 PM
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I know. It's almost anti-climatic.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/24/04 08:57 PM
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I'm not sure it's that simple... I love the Empire too, but... Remember they were crippled by the rebels and that punk skywalker kid, and that was movie canon... The question remains: does each individual faction unite against the others, or do they continue their own petty wars while attacking and allying with the newcomers? And how would our fair Battletech fare in turn? I would have to agree that the Empire would win, if for no other reason than through simple attrition, but it's the getting there that I'd like to hear...
Spartan
06/24/04 09:51 PM
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Crippled? Hardly. Yes they lost a few ships at the Battle of Endor as well as the Death Star. But what of the rest of the fleet? It wasn't all at Endor. Besides, the Empire has production capabilities that vastly outstrip any other scifi faction of which I am aware. Want proof? Ask yourself this, how was Death Star 2 built so quickly?

And it's not attrition, that will win them the fight, it's their vastly superior speed and firepower. Think about it. In other scifi series it takes months, even years to cross even a small section of territory. The Empire could do it in a matter of days or weeks. As for firepower, the Death Star is not the only super weapons available to them. And even their non-super weapons are increadibly powerful, they have weapons that can vaporize nickel-iron asteroids that mass millions of tons, not destroy, not shatter, vaporize.

And why are we arbitraily picking a point in time when the Empire is at worst weakened and fractured?

Also we have no reason to believe that the other factions would unite against a common foe. Look at STDS9, even when a common foe appeared the Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Federation, etc. didn't unite, in fact some even sided with the Dominion.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/24/04 10:51 PM
65.1.53.170

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I say crippled, because I'm judging by the drivel that passes as Star Wars Fiction in the EU post Endor Empire, where they fight amongst themselves and are defeated by Aliens and The "new republic" at every turn... Shameful... I agree on the production and speed, and as far as firepower, Besides the Death Star you have the Galaxy Gun, the Eclipse, the Sun Crusher, the World Devastators, Shadow Droids, Dark Troopers, the list goes on... Not to mention that the weapons on Imperial "mechs(the AT series)" have no heat problems and have effective ranges in excess of 2km. My Knowledge of BT may be limited, but my knowledge of the Empire is far-reaching... It is, in fact, quite refreshing to find someone who admires and follows the Empire as I do, and not one of those Rebel Lackeys who justify themselves behind the "good guys always have to win" BS that hollywood sells us... Since when are Traitors to a legally established government "good guys" anyway? Since the American Revolution maybe... but had we lost, history would've been written different to call us all traitors...
Nightward
06/25/04 02:21 AM
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Michael wins.

Go read Lyda Moorehouses' "Archangel Protocol". If you can think up any form of technology or faction that can take out the honest to God (pun intended) Arch-Angels, more power to you.

I can't- after all, Michael is the one who mops the floor with Satan.

Otherwise, probably the Tyranids. So far, all WH40K have seen of them are off-shoots of Hive Fleet Behomoth. If the 'Nids ever actually show up en masse, the show's over.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Spartan
06/25/04 06:11 AM
67.64.112.212

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Well yes they were consistently defeated post-Endor by the Rebels but that's only because Wedge shows up. Or Han shows up. Or Ackbar shows up. Or.... I'ts just a literary device where none of the main characters can go wrong. The good guys can't lose syndrom you mentioned.

But you're right about the fighting amoungst themselves, until someone strong and gutsy enough comes along, even if only briefly. Daala, Thrawn, Pellaeon.

Now, as for losing to aliens. They did lose territory to the Yuuzhan Vong, but that was before Pellaeon stepped up and took complete control. It was only after that that the New Republic started consistently winning major battles. As I recall the New Republic actually went to them for help against the Yuuzhan Vong. And most of their victories before then came from the aforementioned super heroes, as it were, and the new Jedi's

And really if you think about it, the only reason the Rebellion won at the Battle of Endor was because Chewie managed to hijack an ATST. Really. Think about it. (For this ignore all apocrypha and just stick to canon, including novelizations)
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Spartan
06/25/04 06:16 AM
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Oh sure, bring God into this.

I'd love to see him step in on the Emperor.

Emperor: You may fire at will commander.
AA Michael: <Blocks beam into space; not out of necessity but just cause he can.>
Emperor: How did you get into my throne room!?!!
AA Michael: <silence>
Emperor: Vader! Destroy him! <Vader begins Force Choke>
Vader: I can not my master. He exists outside the Force.
AA Micahel: <Draws sword of fire, makes a single cut>
External Shot: Death Star explodes. Zoom in on center of explosion. Michael floats there as though nothing happened. Spreads his wings and zooms away out of sight with in a fraction of a second.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/25/04 10:00 AM
129.33.119.12

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I wouldn't exactly call Paelleon a strong gutsy leader... competent perhaps, but too near to retirement to make the difference the Empire truly needs. But you do bring up a good point... Since when would any self-respecting Imperial officer EVER call a truce with the rebels... Aliens or not, they are now and will always be the enemy... As far as God and Arch- Angels, We're talking Science Fiction, not Religious Qausi "I believe it even though I can't see it" doctrine... but that's an interesting point: would the Force exist in this fictional galaxy? But I digress... I agree on sticking to Canon from now on to avoid all the tired literary "all the main characters just win without even a scratch (except poor chewie)" and they live happily ever after while the Empire digs deep to find another officer who was not killed at Endor... BAH...
Nightward
06/25/04 03:21 PM
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Ah, but you missed the caption beneath the final shot:

PWN3D!
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Nightward
06/25/04 03:31 PM
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Archangel Protocol was an SF novel in which the Arch-Angels were real. Any personal religious bias aside, nothing in any SF ever has had enough power to compare with the Arch-Angels. Nor will it.

(I'm a Christian, and I'm called Michael. I'm probably more than a little biased here, but Michael in the Judeochristian ethos is the second-most powerful being in all of creation. He's a long way behind number one [God], but far and away ahead of number two [Satan].)

As for Chewbacca...man, they had to hit him with a moon to kill him. A freakin' MOON. All your base are belong to teh Wookiez!

Still...nothing on the 'Nids? I reckon if the 'Nids showed up in full force (they're supposed to have eaten other galaxies, after all) things could get quite messy for everyone else.

Or, you know, Miles Vorkosigan and his father Aral could team up and flatten everone else. It's what the Vorkosigans do, after all...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Spartan
06/25/04 04:46 PM
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I must disagree with you there. Under no circumstances would God or any of His Archangels ever, EVER use ub3r 1337 speak, it is the language of the devil.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/26/04 02:57 PM
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I doubt anything could compare to archangels, but that is a book I'm unfamiliar with, and it seems close enough to actual doctrine to make it a dangerous arguement at best... as far as the 'nids... I know precious little about WH40k, but if they're anything like the other "assimilate and eat and kill as you go" empires out there (like the Borg, the Zerg, the Zentraedi), they would make it interesting... but I still have to go with the empire... Barring any semi religious sci-fi in the interest of not starting a religion based flame war, I say empire, with or without the force and without the death star. BTW, I'm a christian as well, but I firmly believe in not mixing religion with sci-fi.
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/26/04 02:59 PM
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Yeah, agree on the Chewie death also.... What kinda stupid way to die is that? At least he could've went out in a blaze of glory, taking the yelping corpses of many enemies with him... a moon... They finally decide to kill off a major character and that's all they could come up with? Man, does SW EU fiction need help or what?
Nightward
06/26/04 06:53 PM
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I thought the moon was great. How many heroes get to say that?

Hero1: "So, ho'd you die?"
Hero 2: "Old age."
Hero 1: "An enemy stabbed me. In the back. Bastard. Hey, rug-boy, how'd you die?"
Chewbacca: "MMMRAAAAOOOWWWWWRRRgghhhh"
Heroes one and Two: "A rock fell on your head, and you died? What kind of rock?"
Chewbacca: "MMRRWWWWAGGHH"
Heroes one and Two: "A MOON? A FRIGGIN' MOON DROPPED ON YOUR HEAD? Wow...that's pretty impressive..."

In Archangel Protocol, humanity built the Link. It's kinda like the Matrix in ShadowRun, but people can access it on the fly.

A guy called "The Mouse" decided to take over the world using the Link, so he began to write programs that could effect people's emotions via the Link. The first Arch-Angel he created was Phanuel, Arch-Angel of Death. He sent it after unbelievers, so they'd convert to Catholicism. Eventually he also built programs for Gabriel and Raphael, who put out the word that Michael was on his way to the Link as well.

The Mouse was going to be elcted as President, and was going to unleash Michael during a speech. The Michael program was going to kill the 85,000 Link-users allowed into the speech room (as Michael wiped out the army of 85,000 Assyrians). I believe these 85K were opposed to the Mouse, but I forget.

Any way, the real Arch-Angels got wind of what was happening and were not overly impressed. However, to fix the problem, they had to assume human form, and all of them managed to screw the job up. Uriel got transgendered for some reason, and Fell. Gabriel got too tied up in its own prophecies. Raphael spiraled into Vengefulness and joined the Malakim Nikamah, an anti-Link guerilla group. Michael showed up last, dragged the other two into some semblance of usefulness, and then proceeded to KICKED ARSE.

Curiously, no mention of Phanuel showing up was ever made. That might be in the sequel, but I haven't read that one yet.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Spartan
06/27/04 11:13 AM
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I disagree with you there. I think it was fiting to kill Chewie with a moon. Chewie has always been my favorite character and for me it's sorta of thing where the best way to kill him is not have him live out his life or go down in a blaze of glory with his bowcaster. But dying as his last act is to throw one of Han's sons into the Falcon as it got out by the skin of their teeth. Sort of, he's so tough, you have to drop a moon on him to kill him, because otherwise he'll just shrug it off and keep going.

Having said all that, it still irks me that they chose to kill him. I'd have rather seen C3PO get crushed. Or one of the supporting deus ex machina they always turn to, like Wedge or Ackbar.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/27/04 05:50 PM
129.33.119.12

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Yeah, but they won't kill off Wedge or Ackbar because despite the recent book trend of trying to make them into universal heroes, they still don't quite rate "main character" status and therefore would not have shaken up the tired literary device of "the good guys will win without injury"... But I have to disagree about the moon thing... Chewie deserved better... I mean really, an enemy who controlled gravity to crush the poor Wookiee... But I digress... It is on par with EU fiction lately, take that as you please...
cmryan
07/21/04 01:12 PM
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I guess no one hear is familiar with the books by EE Doc Smith featuring the Galactic Patrol and its Lensmen. The Galactic Patrol has its Grand Fleet with maulers, nega-spheres, sun-beams. Lensman are telepathic as long as they wear their Lens and according to the books no Lensman has ever betrayed his oath to the Patrol and the Lens. I think that the Grand Fleet of the Galactic Patrol could meet the Imperial Fleet and beat it. The Lensman are a valuable advantage that the Imperial Fleet does not have. Since the Emperor launched the Clone Wars as a cover to kill all the Jedi.
Spartan
07/23/04 06:24 AM
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What are they able to do with their telepathy?
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/24/04 10:07 AM
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This is, of course, assuming that in the galaxy they all find themselves in that their powers are there and usable... like the Force, which I believe would overcome telepathy... Is it just Telepathy or Psycho-Kinetic ability also? and if the lens is broken, do they lose their power or die? What of their overall numbers? I'll still go with the Empire, because unlike these "lensmen" or the Envyyid of Robotek, who have awesome power and numbers, they have an Achilles heel that can be exploited.. The empire, on the other hand, is a varied, combined arms, Galaxy wide military experienced with fighting Aliens and humans alike... Even though this new faction sounds interesting and may make a run of it, my original vote remains unchanged: Empire wins, Borg and Clans put up good fights, Federation and Babylon 5 die off quickly, and everyone else gets absorbed or annihilated...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
cmryan
07/24/04 02:55 PM
4.12.82.110

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They can communicate with other Lensman across galactic distances.
They can read the minds of unshielded individuals.
They can control the minds of people and animals at close range.
Spartan
07/24/04 08:27 PM
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How would the Borg and Clans put up a good fight?

The Borg had enough difficulty facing Federation ships whose weapons are several orders of magnitude below that of Star Wars capital ship weapons, imagine what would happen if they faced a fleet of Imperial Class SD's? Or a command fleet centered around a Super Star Destroyer?

And the Clans would have no hope. Again the Imperial fleet would be more than a match. Overwhelming firepower combined with overwhelming numbers.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Spartan
07/24/04 08:29 PM
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Close range? How close? What constitutes a shielded individual?

Also, what about their technology. What kind of speed are their sub-light and supra-light engines capable of? What are their weapons capable of? Not just superweapons(if any), standard capital ship weapons too.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Greyslayer
07/24/04 11:44 PM
203.61.72.179

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Replicators from Star Gate would 'own' most tech-based cultures since they acquire the technology of those they face pretty quickly.... they even smashed Thor's race who are capable of inter-galaxy travel. The only way they are held at the moment is the time-delay device setup on the replicator base of operations which sets every second to be about 1,000 years or something so that Thor's race could find a way of getting rid of them or fixing them.... maybe a deathstar would come in handy for something?

before anyone quotes "Q" or any other super sentient and powerful beings basically all sci-fi settings had their own 'god like' beings.

Star Gate have the 'Ancients'
Babylon 5 have an empath that became super sentient in an episode and became a 'cosmic power' of sorts.
Not sure on Farscape, there were some pretty powerful beings but none I saw were truly the godlike ones of the other series....

Its all relative to what sci-fi show you really like.
cmryan
07/25/04 07:14 AM
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Close range is a range usually within the same room. A shielded individual has a personal thought shield generator on his or her body or is in a room that is covered by a thought shield. Technology uses a mixture of vacuum tube and sci-fi. Space ships use "inertialless drive" articfical gravity is available for any type of ship.
Super Weapons:
Hyper Spatial Tube: not a weapon but a technology that allows ships, free planets and even entire space fleets to be transported instantly across intergalactic distances. Its main liability is that you cannot look through it with sensors. You have to determine to your satisfaction that your arrival area is free of any obstruction.
Sun Beam: Convert the entire energy output of a star into a beam of energy. range limitation the beam tends to fall apart by the time the beam reaches the outer reaches of its star system. The other limitation is that if a sunbeam is built in an inhabited system obviously you don't want to deprive the inhabited worlds of light.
Negative Matter: This bears a remarkable resemblence to anti-matter. They can make negative matter in any quantiy.
Free Planets: The inertialess drive can be scaled up to a size that allows planets to be transformed into mobile weapons platforms, or into guided missles.
Spartan
07/25/04 08:39 AM
67.64.107.248

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Yeah I could see how they could give the Empire a run for it's money. Especially with the planetary missles and sun beams. But what about numbers? How easy is it for them to accomplish these feats? How often can they repeat these feats?

Baring the superweapons, I'm inclined to think the Empire would have an advantage, but to be honest that's based on a lack of information rather than a well thought out argument. I can't seem to find any info on this series except book and movie reviews.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Spartan
07/25/04 08:44 AM
67.64.107.248

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I've not been able to follow Stargate for quite some time. How do the Replicators acquire the technology? And what about their industrial capabilities? I mean, if they figure out how to build a Star Destoyer but can only build one every other year (for example) that wouldn't really give them an advantage. But then, if they figure out how to build one every day, they could soon match the Empire's numbers.

I also agree Q should be left out. So should most of the other deus ex machinas that come in every sci-fi series. Some, like the lensman mentioned above, have to be kept in, because they're an integral part of the series but others, Jedi for example, can be left out and not have the universe colapsing on itself.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/25/04 10:06 AM
129.33.119.12

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All this tech aside, all the Replicators, Lensman, Zerg, Envyyid, clans, Borg, Hive, Vorlon or whatever, I don't think any faction in any other license comes near the numbers and variance that the Empire has, even post endor... And I said Clans and Borg put up a good fight because the clans would be absorbed by the Empire and the Borg (not nerfed by Star Trek Writers) have almost the numbers to at least make a run at it... Nothing else I've seen or read has the ground forces and quick deployment capability to hang for very long with the Empire... If special powers, such as the force and folding space and protomatter and all that is disabled, then it becomes a simple military war of attrition, to which the Imperial forces are already accustomed to fighting... If this "battle of the Sci-fi elite" took place royal rumble style, wherein different forces emerged at different times and in different places, someone else may get a shot at the Empire when they first arrive... Other than that, I still can't see a way for anyone to counter 1000's of Star destroyers crewed by Legions of Stormtroopers and pilots, and led by a Meglomaniac Dark Lord of the Sith....
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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