Tzu
07/12/04 06:49 PM
68.215.208.70
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My friend and I want to set up a mercenary unit, and we want to know how we should do this. Not an actual, canon merc unit, just our own new unit. Do I need to find the merc handbook, or can someone point me to an online source for this sort of thing? Thanks in advance for any help you can give. 
Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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Greyslayer
07/12/04 07:24 PM
216.14.192.234
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Depends if you want to run it more as a strategy game or roleplaying?
Strategy means in-depth financial details and the ability to run up to a large number of units. In general all units are reduced to a couple of stats (that being gunnery, piloting and any skills such as edge/bull's eye marksman and so on). Roleplaying can still enter into this type of game but the gameplay revolves around the tabletop rather than making gauss rifles from toasters.
Roleplaying merc units revolve around individuals, better suited for small units that in general don't or are not allowed to get much larger. Much of any campaign is resolved off the tabletop and the depth of characters are far greater, generating individual NPCs are a bit of a problem. If GMs prefer alot of 'out of cockpit' action then the roleplay method is best. If the GM is after just some simple answers to some questions and a couple of rolls to get the game going then obviously strategy is the better option.
Books for Strategy:-
- Mechwarrior Handbook (original)
- Mercenaries Handbook 3055
- MaxTech
- Battletech Master Rules
Books for Roleplaying:-
- Mercenaries Handbook 3055
- Mechwarrior 3 Roleplaying Rules and character templates
- Mechwarrior 2 Roleplaying rules and character templates
- FM: Mercenaries (revised or otherwise, pretty much as bad as each other)
- Battletech Master Rules
Advised Material for both (GM):
- Hotspots (all)
A long time ago I tried putting in a less 'rortable', ruleset for making merc units. The overall task was never completed, I didn't feel confident in making a satisfactory Lyran, Marik or Kuritan random mech generator (not some dodgey, poorly researched one in other words). All of the information I and those helping me created is still there at:
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~scottw/index2.html
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Tzu
07/12/04 08:38 PM
68.215.208.70
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Thanks for the info, Grey. From what you've said, I've determined my friend and I are going for a total strategy merc unit. No story/main characters, no outside action, just running/fighting with a merc unit with simplified pilots and all the financial nitty gritty  .
I also did some searching around after I asked my question, and from the previews and stuff it looked like most, if not all, of what I would need was in the revised FM: Mercs. Could I just get that, or do the other books provide more/better info?
Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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Greyslayer
07/12/04 09:49 PM
216.14.192.234
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Essentially, about the only truly useful component for a strategic game using Mercenaries from the FM: Mercenaries that I found was the method of bargaining for contracts with the GM. Though you would have to look at either having negotiation skill or to remove rorting altogether no negotiation skill and just base it on how effective your unit is. I would probably modify the points by how effective your force looks at completing the objectives, no use using an assault lance on an objective raid, they are generally outnumbered and outgunned so mediums are the more able units to take out the objective and get away and so on.
For simplicity and 'feel' I aim at 3025, I also reckon that a financial campaign would see players 'ditching' XL-engined mechs for a couple of mechs due to price difference.
For the financial approach, none really provide an overall good perspective of what is involved. The reason why I say this is that the best method outlined for maintaining mechs has effectively been castrated by the sole usage of BV (the old system used the CV of a mech divided by 10 for the value in c-bills and time it took each week to keep the unit running, with the removal of CV they replaced it with arbitary values that didn't care on tech level, size or what the unit actually had on it... very STUPID, it also created more bookwork since the system required an army of technicians to keep a small force operational, thus rendering the ability to transport a company to a planet in a Union-Class dropship unlikely since you would have to rip apart much of the dropship for crewspace for your large group of techs, it was a real 'brains trust' effort  ).
Create some tables in Excel to manage your unit, I had heaps but would have to do some digging to find all of them. I had revised to contract payment system due to it either being too harsh or too easy depending on the method (one method was to have a company of infantry and hide it away while using your mechs to do the fighting, since one system relied on the base wages paid to the troops and their experience this allowed massive influx of funds for effectively useless troops).
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Nightward
07/13/04 03:52 AM
211.26.65.178
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Yeah. Using C-bills to "balance" forces doesn't. I played in a campaign where we got 40 million to start off the unit, and then each contract averaged around 5 million. Every kill was worth about 1 million, though sometimes you'd roll up[ an assignment where you had to guard convoys and kills were worthless, and stuff like that.
The rolling for assignments was good, 'cos it meant that you wouldn't always get your favourite assignments...unless you were me. I only ever got "Engagement, Mainly Clear Terrain."
Everyone else had started their force off with high-tech, Level 2 toys, but I built a nigh-Company out of 3025 'Mechs. My first battle was a total rout for my opponent, and I managed enough salvage and payment to upgrade all of my gear. Not the 'Mech models, just theiur gear. Ferro-Fibrous armour, double heat sinks, ER lasers, sort of thing.
Next fight comes up, and I ripped through my opponent. This is at least partially explained by the fact that he was a moron- he lay his Highlander face down in a lake for the entire game for reasons I can't fathom, pointed his Yellowjacket's Front arcs away from any targets, and generally made a mess of things. At first I played down to his level, but one single turn saw me annihilate both Yellowjackets and headcap his unit commander, after which he sued for peace.
So after two games, I had a full company of 'Mechs with standard engines and really solid loadouts- and I kept getting "Engagement, Mainly Clear Terrain" as my assignments. I became the dreaded bugbear of the campaign, since nobody else had a unit that could even touch me- even more so when I started to field home-grown 'Mechs my techs had scratchbuilt.
Blarg.
Moral of the story? Match the forces carefully. Try to keep tonnage, numbers, and BV all as close as possible- that's where you can usually pick something's out.
Of course, the main aim of a campaign is to break the rules as badly as you can, so, you know...whatever works
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
07/13/04 04:44 AM
203.61.72.98
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Uber units think they are good, beware the GM's friend (Comstar/ROM).
That being said I will now explain what I find so repulsive about your force:
- Rolling for contracts are totally different from where the engagement actually occurs. A contract can be several engagements, and as a golden rule the GM rolls what can happen outside of the player's knowledge. What they can do to either avoid a situation, make it worse or make it work for them is what a player can do. Rarely would a defender/attacker select to attack a superior opponent in the open. You make it sounds like a Mechcommander campaign but without them being able to outnumber you properly (sounds like a similar AI level as well  ).
- Upgrading units take a bloody long time in a campaign, we are talking weeks to months depending on if it is a refit kit or a customisation. Sensors need to be recalibrated for new weapons, gyros need to be recalibrated for a shift in mass and possible centre of gravity shifts, power feeds and cables may need to be replaced for the new items or even the whole engine shielding stripped and replaced to house the new double heat sinks (and to do that you need to remove the engine I would think). Armour doesn't just fall into place either so extra work would need to be done in that area, endo steel just doesn't work as a customisation due to the fact that you have to remove EVERY item from one chassis and put it on the other chassis, its like replacing bones in a human remember. If it is a refit kit, many of those would have to be shipped from other planets which could take months to arrive, this would depend on how common the unit is and how common the refit.
- Contracts are offered dependant on size of the unit. For example a contract will be offered for a Lance-sized unit and the pay would be according that of a lance. You get far more pay as a merc fielding a 3025 company than a 3050 lance for contracts as few contracts would be looking for small units like a lance but a company would certainly be useful to many prospective employers.
Do note that while the GM holds the discretion on how even the fights are I would hope that if a player gets too greedy or too stupid that they are rewarded respectively, with an overwhelming force and a quick loss  . Also remember that sometimes players will catch all the breaks in a battle, it will happen, no big deal.
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Tzu
07/13/04 04:39 PM
68.215.208.70
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Thanks again for the timely replies, and Nightward's little example campaign gave me some of an idea about amount of tech versus amount of mech, and then Grey brought it back to reality with your post on the feasibility of such customizations  . I still am wondering if it's necessary to buy all those books you mentioned. If it's not too much trouble, could you list, or at least summarize, what each of those books has that would be needed to run a merc unit. And whether or not I could sub in the FM: Mercs for part or all of it (for financial reasons ).
Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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Greyslayer
07/13/04 05:06 PM
216.14.192.233
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The simplest way to start might be to have a campaign similar to what Nightward mentioned. All you need then is Battletech Master Rules, possibly MaxTech depending on the level of gameplay (just level 2 with no special skills then you don't need MaxTech and for your first campaign that might be a good idea, start simple or KISS - keep it simple, stupid ) and a set of simple house rules to control the campaign.
Simple set of rules could cover:-
- map setup and strategic movement (for example slowest member of a lance, with a lance being the minimum size that can take and hold ground being a good option, defines how many strategic hexes the force can move: eg 1-2 1 hex 3-4 2 hexes and so on. This would be modified by basic terrain type for the campaign and whether a contact was reported during movement).
- money, going from starting value, creating forces (my two schools of thought on this go along the lines of experience x value of mech, in this case the pilot would be qualified for that weight class only cutting down on rorting of buying elite light mechs and green assaults and swapping pilots over or pilots remain in that mech unless it is classed destroyed, thus risking the pilot's life anyway, or purchase of pilots costing x value depending on experience) also with the purchase of mechs you could do one of many ways: just allow the player to purchase what they want either with restricted number of 'like' units (eg no more than 4 of the same unit) or rolling for units in each slot and making it harder to acquire similar units after acquiring one (+1 to roll for each unit that already exists of that type in the army) or perhaps rolling a set number of units and allowing the player to purchase only the units rolled (players could receive the exact same list, the list could contain 3-4 times as many mechs as what would be expected of each player to field, in this case the same could be done for pilots as well... in this one everyone has an even playing field). At the start extra equipment such as spare lasers and armour could be purchased as well as technicians. This area includes how your force remains active through gathering income (possibly from capturing and holding cities) paying to maintain your forces and purchasing new units and equipment (from a possible Comstar type neutral force).
- NPC forces hold cities and pirate forces are known to hunt about. Flesh out the forces, some forces might be in ambush, some might be in the open, and some might wander into an ambush (but remember it would be unlikely this would happen unless a force tried taking a city you held).
- Set a clearly defined objective, be that the first player to hold a certain number of cities wins or the one holding the most cities at the end of a certain period wins. Being the first campaign the main objective is to get used to operating under a financial-strategic system with random elements. After that you would probably have your own better formulated ideas on how to best run a mercenary campaign.
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Nightward
07/13/04 07:49 PM
202.138.41.52
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Actually, since there were six of us playing, we squared off Round-Robin style while the GM rolled the assignments. I only ever got "Engagement, Mainly Clear Terrain" for mine.
I wanted much smaller payments and a wider variety of contracts, so that there was some encouragement to use units other than 'Mechs and so the units would grow more slowly. But that "wan't fun" according to the rest of the group, so...
As for the Custom rules, we were just using the stuff from BMR. It would have been different if we'd included time taken to ship the stuff around, fabrication, and so on, but to keep it simple it was just by the book.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Tzu
07/16/04 08:02 PM
68.155.198.83
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Thanks for the help, you two. My friend and I are going to get the BMR now and start our own merc campaign . Thanks again.
Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
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Minnime
07/18/04 06:18 PM
217.229.101.121
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Level 1 (3025) works well for Merchs, but Level 2 does not.
The reason is rather simple, the additional 10mil per Mech due to the XL Engines basicly makes Mercs really at least twice as expensive.
At Level 3 you can make Mechs that go for more than 110mil....
With 20-30mil you can create a decent lance with some support Units 3025, 3050-3055 however you get only 3-4 Mechs for that sum and 3067+ you hardly get 1 if you want it to be at least in the upper possible range.
I do not use the real bargaining method, only the form to keep in mind how the contract was, cos you forget numbers easy.
The maining points are anyway salvage, repair and ammo/armor, I basicly think that a modest is 50% salvage (tons), 20% repair - no ammo/armor.
Contracts different usually mean that either: The merchs will fire like manics their ballistic weapons, creating excessive sums of employer paid money, or the mechs don't care what gets hit.
However, Mercs that sign a "no repair" contract hardly live long, as it's pretty sure that the employer won't care for their survival - as he does not pay the bills.
With at least some % in repair however he is motivated to supply correct information and 50% salvage means that mercs take do bring some usefull stuff home.
The best split is however, 25% salvage (tonnage), 25% salvage (value), 20% repair, no armor/ammo usually - this both motivates the merchs to bring good stuff back to the employer (as they get money) and make sure the mechs stay intact (as they pay 80% of the dammage).
greets
Minni
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davion76
07/20/04 02:37 AM
12.219.246.45
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Some lvl 2 tech is great for merc units. Double heatsinks come to mind. They don't cost much in the big picture of a mech, and deliver a huge advantage. (not to mention they take up alot of crits to cover ammo) Endo steel is another winner. Artemis isn't TOO bad for large LRM launchers. ERPPCs are sirnificantly more expensive than PPCs, but are alot more effective. CASE is another winner.
Things I would stay away from XL ENGINES!!! & Ferro fibrous armor.
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Greyslayer
07/20/04 03:38 AM
203.61.72.216
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Some lvl 2 tech is great for merc units.
I agree here. 3050+ is not totally bad news for mercs.
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Double heatsinks come to mind. They don't cost much in the big picture of a mech, and deliver a huge advantage. (not to mention they take up alot of crits to cover ammo) Endo steel is another winner.
Double heat sinks are a good option, unfortunately they are very intensive on techs to replace since single and double heat sinks are incorporated into the engine of a mech thus you have to totally strip the engine to remove the heat sinks within. Endo steel is okay except you cannot 'upgrade kit' a mech to endo if you look at it. You would waste so much time stripping the components off a mech and put it back on the endo steel frame, remember this is the 'bones' of a mech so unless you purchase a mech with endo steel it is worthless to try to upgrade a mech to have it on the mech.
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Artemis isn't TOO bad for large LRM launchers. ERPPCs are sirnificantly more expensive than PPCs, but are alot more effective. CASE is another winner.
Artemis is terrible, double ammo price, can be jammed by ECMs which make them useless, does not help in indirect fire and adds one ton to the launcher weight. For a merc this is probably not one of the better peices of equipment kicking about. You get what you pay for with a ER PPC and a PPC, fighting clans the ER PPC is oh so much more effective though.
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Things I would stay away from XL ENGINES!!! & Ferro fibrous armor.
As a merc fielding mechs with XL Engines is akin to financial suicide, don't do it. Ferro fibrous while being twice as expensive as normal armour is easily incorporated into an old mech via an upgrade kit unlike Endosteel. This is an excellent addition for mechs not quite at their full armour quota as it does not create balance issues that armouring a fully-armoured mech and then spending the tonnage on something else would do. Still I would classify this upgrade easier than heat sinks upgrade if the mech doesn't end up with leftover tonnage and harder than a heat sink upgrade if did.
Remember that access to technology at best is limited, mercs get old or faulty models of mechs and supply of new parts are very erratic. Those that run around with Gauss Rifles in 3050 are kidding themselves, frontline fighting units in the IS struggled to maintain supplies of this equipment during this period, how much more would a merc struggle? The same could be said of LB10 ammo, Artemis ammo, Streak ammo and level 2 LRM ammo types. Demand in the Successor States far outstripped demand as such the Mercs did not have access to this unless they opted for the Black Market and a chance of being caught....
Life's tough being a merc, wannabe a technofiend? Play some munchy House or Clan unit.
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Minnime
07/20/04 06:38 AM
217.82.100.48
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By the date of 2050 merchs imho have those:
-> ER PPC
-> ER Med.
-> Doube Heat sinks
thats enough for me to make at least (up to my players if they do) a level 1 mech into a combat monster that can wack anything 2v1 that you can create in level 2, while it costs pretty much 50% of the level 2 thing.
So far so good, but one must keep in mind that most house armies are fielding old mechs, bad pilots (compared to merchs) and often not even many of them and 2050 most of them, as they are "out of mechs" cos the clans wacked their armies at these times... many of their pilots are not even loyal... offer them 1 to 10mil if they surrender and turn over their mech and lets see what happens
A elite-SOTA house lance of course turns a merch lance to rubble, question of the bucks...but most of these are not running around everywhere
Edit: I toyed for the sake of seeing if it works with a Level 1 Atlas (everything unchanged, but: 1) single heat sinks -> double heat sinks, now 18 instead of 20.
Weapons: All removed.
New Weapons: 2 ER PPC, 6 ER Med. Lasers, 1 Med. pulse Lasers (1), 2 Flamers (LL/RL), 2 Flamers (RT)
New Stuff: +3 Jumpjets (LL/RL/CT), + Beagle, + Guardian, TAG, C3 Slave Node
If you go for *pure* weapons only you can go for: 2x ER PPC, 6 x ER Med, 2 Med Pulse, 6x Flamer, again 20 DHS, or: 2 ER PPCs, 10 Medium Lasers, 2 Medium Pulse Lasers, 2 Flamers
Version 1 goes for 12.1; while version 2 goes for 10.8 and version 2b goes for 10.6
Merc is possible yes, but you have to take a assault mech (level 1) and put as much energy weapons on it as possible...
greets
Minni
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Greyslayer
07/20/04 09:13 AM
216.14.192.234
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By the date of 2050 merchs imho have those:
-> ER PPC
-> ER Med.
-> Doube Heat sinks
ER Mediums were not around as part of the IS technology tree in 3050, that was several years later. Mercs were even further behind in that respect.
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So far so good, but one must keep in mind that most house armies are fielding old mechs, bad pilots (compared to merchs) and often not even many of them and 2050 most of them are "out of mechs" as the clans wacked their armies at these times... many of their pilots are not even loyal... offer them 10mil if they surrender and turn over their mech and lets see what happens
3050, thats the second time in the same post you got that wrong. Now to clear up a few things, only the Houses had the decent access to level 2 technology. Afterall the houses were the ones with the technology (from the memory core). Now who do you think would be selling all this wonderous level 2 technology that the houses were not prepared to upgrade their troops with? Or more importantly where does all the 'well maintained' mechs that mercs end up with come from? Most probably salvaged units or units from other failed merc units, I would hardly be saying those units are any better than those fielded in the House militaries. The interesting point of many House personnell are that they have many generations of service within the units they are in, in fact many 'own' the mech they are piloting as a family heirloom. Loyalty is more a question to Mercenaries than House troops, they are the ones fighting for money rather than their family.
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A elite-SOTA house lance of course turns a merch lance to rubble, question of the bucks...but most of these are not running around everywhere
greets
Minni
Even green units have veteran and elite units within them (to help train units and to pass on knowledge and skill).
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Minnime
07/20/04 10:17 AM
217.82.100.48
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3050, thats the second time in the same post you got that wrong.
Aww, you still got it  , anyway, i meant 3050, dunno why I wrote 2050.
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Now to clear up a few things, only the Houses had the decent access to level 2 technology. Afterall the houses were the ones with the technology (from the memory core).
Umm, except for the ER Med. which is my mistake, the core was more than a decade ago at 3050...
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Now who do you think would be selling all this wonderous level 2 technology that the houses were not prepared to upgrade their troops with?
It's a large difference to upgrade a small unit or a large unit. Houses cannot upgrade their whole troops in a few years, while mercs can.
It depends on how you setup a merc unit, either alot of mechs or a small lance.
Most mercs do garrision duty, well - those are the ones we do not play, playing 10 years of garrision duty is not really interesting, is it ?
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Or more importantly where does all the 'well maintained' mechs that mercs end up with come from?
A well repaired salvaged mech is as good as a well mantained 50 year old mech. Reparing that thing is not expensive, nor it takes too much time.
It's the engine that matters, if it is intact the thing is pretty much for free, if not, it's not much worth the repair.
Compared to the costs involved getting/reparing weapons/engines the whole structure is pretty unimportant.
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Most probably salvaged units or units from other failed merc units, I would hardly be saying those units are any better than those fielded in the House militaries.
Yes & No, mercs that do mainly presence duty are in fact not fielding top notch mechs, neither they need to, nor they are paid to.
However, like I stated above, those are not the ones we play, as we are limited to rather boring garrision duty.
Including the mercs under normal military command is neither interesting as RPG, as they have to do what they are said to do, there is no freedom involved for the players.
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The interesting point of many House personnell are that they have many generations of service within the units they are in, in fact many 'own' the mech they are piloting as a family heirloom. Loyalty is more a question to Mercenaries than House troops, they are the ones fighting for money rather than their family.
Loyalty does not replace experience, neither training does.
You can argue about training vs experience, yes - but thats more a general thing to argue about, you can follow the American view that training is superior to experience, or the Russian view who believe the opposite and prefer to throw inexperienced troops into combat.
However, most mercs are Regulars / Veterans with combat experience (I do not count those that die on their first mission)... most house troops are Regulars as well, but they lack the experience.
In BT it's rather simple, your skill counts, but however, in BT it raises far quicker if you get combat experience, so the latter is the thing we have to talk about.
I'm not saying that most mercs field superior troops and superior equipment, but I'm saying that the part that does not play babysitter for abackwaterworlds does, in fact they either do or they get wacked.
Yes, you can setup a merc unit with tons of old mecs, but the transportation costs will kill it, far too expensive to move many mechs.
Either you move some top notch mechs alot or you move once in a while tons of old mechs.
Babysitting planets can be long and lucrative as you do not need to pay alot of transport, but however, if you do assignments that involve combat most of them are shorter (more transportation costs) and pay far more money.
Combat with old outdated mechs is suicide...
Sure, if you team gets wacked and loses ~20-30% of it's equipment it will be gone... but that's the way it goes.
With the new tech mercs have to decide: either they sell mechs and get fewer better mechs, or they keep theirs and play babysitter.
greets
Minni
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Greyslayer
07/20/04 12:46 PM
216.14.192.234
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Umm, except for the ER Med. which is my mistake, the core was more than a decade ago at 3050...
That still doesn't mean that small mercenary units (particuarly of the sizes you were indicating) are going to be able to get their hands on any of the technology. Wolf Dragoons, for all their access to superior tech, their own factories and excellent support techniques were still not 100% upgraded. Only dodgey "Novel" units seemed to be customised 3050+ mech units. Read the FM: Mercs details of units. Most are still struggling to upgrade their units and its about 3058 at the time of the original printing I think and they are the good units!
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It's a large difference to upgrade a small unit or a large unit. Houses cannot upgrade their whole troops in a few years, while mercs can.
Huh? Is this some kind of warped logic? The IS was upgrading their units, supply of level 2 equipment was not meeting DEMAND, how would a financially restricted pathetic little lance be able to subvert level 2 equipment for its own purposes?
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It depends on how you setup a merc unit, either alot of mechs or a small lance.
Now we look at it from a mathematical POV (point of view). An expensive lance vs an inexpensive company as far as contracts are concerned. Seriously, what would a lance look like for many employers? Nothing much more than protecting grain silos or auxillaries to a force which would mean your unit is under the direct control of your employer. Sure that lance might be meaning your Wolf Dragoon's rating is higher but considering the way contracts are usually paid also depends on the size of the unit.
A lower-tech company can get parts anywhere for its force. No need to pray on costly replacement parts arriving. No need to have to train technicians for months on how to repair the equipment or having to waste time on having your mechs majorly refitted. Time is money for mercs, its that simple....
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Most mercs do garrision duty, well - those are the ones we do not play, playing 10 years of garrision duty is not really interesting, is it ?
Are you saying that conflict will totally pass you by for 10 years? A) I doubt a GM would allow that B) There had to be a reason why you were there in the first place C) The table for 3055 Merc Handbook didn't lend itself to being peacefull for all that long (even on Garrison Duty).
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A well repaired salvaged mech is as good as a well mantained 50 year old mech. Reparing that thing is not expensive, nor it takes too much time.
And you believe that all the opposition won't be doing the same? Having the Parts (things like Actuators for a 40 tonner are a real pain to find if you don't have any spare) to repair an acquired unit is just the start of the fun. A small unit can generally only take the bare essentails with them.... you can't take hundreds of tons of spare parts with you unless you use a larger dropship that costs you more and its only carrying a lance.
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It's the engine that matters, if it is intact the thing is pretty much for free, if not, it's not much worth the repair.
The lighter the mech the higher the % in price the gyro costs. Suddenly it isn't only the engine that shows its monetary value. Being blinkered by the value of the engine shows the lack of understanding about being a merc. If you lost the engine you lost the mech otherwise that was highly unlucky that all 6/10/12 crits were taken out without the CT being totally destroyed and once the CT is destroyed the mech ceases to exist, it cannot be rebuilt (10+ salvage rolls to see if the items in the destroyed section can be saved though).
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Compared to the costs involved getting/reparing weapons/engines the whole structure is pretty unimportant.
Repairing engines is easy, all you need is an engine repair kit (about 10,000 c-bills we estimated) which gives you one shot at repairing an engine hit and then it is used up.
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Yes & No, mercs that do mainly presence duty are in fact not fielding top notch mechs, neither they need to, nor they are paid to.
If the Dragoons Rating required for the mission was high I would say the Employer expects top-notch mechs from the Merc Unit. A starting or small unit would rarely be able to fit this bill, and those requiring a high Dragoons Rating would probably also require a larger sized unit than a lance.
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However, like I stated above, those are not the ones we play, as we are limited to rather boring garrision duty.
It wouldn't matter what you are limited to, conflict will undoubtedly follow. Garrison Duty could in fact be a ruse and the employer could be only using the contract to get mercs to fight a Defensive Campaign, there are provisions to protect mercs from this but it doesn't stop an Employer from doing it.
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Loyalty does not replace experience, neither training does.
You can argue about training vs experience, yes - but thats more a general thing to argue about, you can follow the American view that training is superior to experience, or the Russian view who believe the opposite and prefer to throw inexperienced troops into combat.
Loyalty is very important, it was very important to your earlier arguments as well. I was showing the ineffectiveness of bribes, particuarly in the area of combat. Would a House Regular believe the word of a miserable merc scum anyway?
Americans? Training? Gee from my experience it was the opposite. Training and in particular cross training within your area of operations eg tank gunner learning basics of driving and servicing tank, is markedly lacking.
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However, most mercs are Regulars / Veterans with combat experience (I do not count those that die on their first mission)... most house troops are Regulars as well, but they lack the experience.
Regulars are common, Greens are common, I wouldn't say the same for Veterans and definitely not the same for Elites.
They might be more common for you, but I suppose some players can only enjoy using hightech elite troops against green lowtech troops.
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In BT it's rather simple, your skill counts, but however, in BT it raises far quicker if you get combat experience, so the latter is the thing we have to talk about.
Which was a major beef I had with the standard experience progression of troops. The more experienced the unit the quicker it went up (old systems included 4 kills to drop a gunnery or piloting, or in the BMR 8 experience points for gunnery and 4 for piloting at a guess), talking RPG though I wouldn't know which dodgey system you would be referring to, I only really played Mechwarrior 2 roleplaying when I did try my hand at the RPG side of the game.
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I'm not saying that most mercs field superior troops
They don't.
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and superior equipment,
They don't.
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Yes, you can setup a merc unit with tons of old mecs, but the transportation costs will kill it, far too expensive to move many mechs.
Fuzzy maths again eh? Off the top of my head transport costs.
Lance - Leopard Class Dropship 60,000 c-bills per jump
Company - Union Class Dropship 150,000 c-bills per jump
Dropship - 50,000 c-bills per hardpoint per jump
Result:
Lance 27,500 c-bills per mech per jump
Company 16,667 c-bills per mech per jump
As you were saying?
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Combat with old outdated mechs is suicide...
Being able to use the units would negate some of this. Besides that the one real advantage would be something like double heat sinks. That would be the biggest single advantage a new tech unit would have over an old-tech one. Medium Lasers are available to everyone and is one of the best weapons in the game...
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With the new tech mercs have to decide: either they sell mechs and get fewer better mechs, or they keep theirs and play babysitter.
New tech is overall better than old tech, yes. Does it automatically outdate the older units, no. A PPC hit is not less lethal, getting brassed up by a hunchback still hurts.
You seem infatuated with the idea that you want to be a merc and yet still have everything (like technology, experience, loyalty etc). In fact in the Battletech Universe it is shown to be the opposite. Learn to thrive on hardship, that is what it is like to be a Merc.
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Minnime
07/20/04 06:24 PM
217.82.100.48
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That still doesn't mean that small mercenary units (particuarly of the sizes you were indicating) are going to be able to get their hands on any of the technology. Wolf Dragoons, for all their access to superior tech, their own factories and excellent support techniques were still not 100% upgraded. Only dodgey "Novel" units seemed to be customised 3050+ mech units. Read the FM: Mercs details of units. Most are still struggling to upgrade their units and its about 3058 at the time of the original printing I think and they are the good units!
The Merc Book covers Units from A to C.
And nope, your logic is rather weird in this case. Getting 1-2 items on a Blackmarket is no problem, but getting 10-20 is.
That's the way Blackmarkets work, the more you want, the more you pay. It's exactly the opposite of a legal market where more means less money.
Smuggeling 1-2 Items a month is not a major problem, nor concern. But smuggling 10-20 is.
If you want 10 instead of 1 you pay far more than 10 times.
Try to get a gun in the streets and you will get one, try to get 100 guns and you will end up in jail.
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Huh? Is this some kind of warped logic? The IS was upgrading their units, supply of level 2 equipment was not meeting DEMAND, how would a financially restricted pathetic little lance be able to subvert level 2 equipment for its own purposes?
If you would consider *how* Blackmarkets work, it is not. A large lance can get a few items as well, rite, but not enough to outfit a large lance.
The bigger the deal, the bigger the chance of getting busted.
That's why it is far less problematic to outfit a small unit.
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Now we look at it from a mathematical POV (point of view). An expensive lance vs an inexpensive company as far as contracts are concerned. Seriously, what would a lance look like for many employers? Nothing much more than protecting grain silos or auxillaries to a force which would mean your unit is under the direct control of your employer. Sure that lance might be meaning your Wolf Dragoon's rating is higher but considering the way contracts are usually paid also depends on the size of the unit.
Correct, but you can always field a smaller unit for the same money, the only difference is that you do not get the full amount of money *if you do not perform like a larger lance*, however that is done in the dealing. You get a basic payment for lets say 8 mechs, but if you do the same job as 16 whom where asked for, you get the money for 16 mechs - but only if you succeed.
Huge difference between what you say and what is presented in the Merc book.
It's more risk, more money. It's part of the game.
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A lower-tech company can get parts anywhere for its force. No need to pray on costly replacement parts arriving. No need to have to train technicians for months on how to repair the equipment or having to waste time on having your mechs majorly refitted. Time is money for mercs, its that simple....
Umm, to get your techs up to date you do those boring less risk jobs.... that's one of the main reason good units do them, even the top units did that some time in their time being.
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Are you saying that conflict will totally pass you by for 10 years? A) I doubt a GM would allow that B) There had to be a reason why you were there in the first place C) The table for 3055 Merc Handbook didn't lend itself to being peacefull for all that long (even on Garrison Duty).
If you *really* use that table we have absolutly no shortage on mechs, take a look at that rather (imho) retarded table, how many raids a planet / month ? Where do all these Dropships grow...
If you want to be realistic - and you want to be, then you cannot use it. You can't make tons of monthly raids if Jumpships / Dropships are that rare, exspecially those lances...
But take a look at the size of these raiding lances... most of them are not as big as you suggest the whole time, most of the time not even a Company.
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And you believe that all the opposition won't be doing the same? Having the Parts (things like Actuators for a 40 tonner are a real pain to find if you don't have any spare) to repair an acquired unit is just the start of the fun. A small unit can generally only take the bare essentails with them.... you can't take hundreds of tons of spare parts with you unless you use a larger dropship that costs you more and its only carrying a lance.
Of course they do. But however, a few acutators and/or tons of armor do not kill your cargo... ammo kills your cargo.
But if you make such a fuss about 10-50tons of cargo you have to say as well that a lance cannot use missiles/AKs due to the cargo, which is nonsense.
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The lighter the mech the higher the % in price the gyro costs. Suddenly it isn't only the engine that shows its monetary value. Being blinkered by the value of the engine shows the lack of understanding about being a merc. If you lost the engine you lost the mech otherwise that was highly unlucky that all 6/10/12 crits were taken out without the CT being totally destroyed and once the CT is destroyed the mech ceases to exist, it cannot be rebuilt (10+ salvage rolls to see if the items in the destroyed section can be saved though).
Actually you tell me not to use light mechs mainly. I can agree on that, exspecially because of this:
Umm, did you realize that your cargotable costs you the same sum of shipping a light lance ? Shipping a light lance to a destination costs 60k C-Bills, shipping them back costs 60k C-Bills.
Hrmp, 120k C-Bills to get a light lance to and off the destination. Light mechs go for 1.5 to 3, making 2mil average if we assume that the cheaper ones dominate. One trip with a light lance costs about 1,5% of it's value...
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If the Dragoons Rating required for the mission was high I would say the Employer expects top-notch mechs from the Merc Unit. A starting or small unit would rarely be able to fit this bill, and those requiring a high Dragoons Rating would probably also require a larger sized unit than a lance.
Ah you assume that I talk about a fresh startup merc unit in 3050, oh well, I neither meant that nor was talking about it.
A unit does not start with 100mil C-Bills...
I have the habbit of playing things a bit longer though, we started roughtly Jan ~3025, 3050 those surviving PCs will be actually ~40-60 years old... before we hit 3060 most of them will be retired, but that does not mean the unit cheases to exist.
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If the Dragoons Rating required for the mission was high I would say the Employer expects top-notch mechs from the Merc Unit. A starting or small unit would rarely be able to fit this bill, and those requiring a high Dragoons Rating would probably also require a larger sized unit than a lance.
Dragoon ratings are nice, but they are not based only on size. In fact, the initial rating is based on size/experience/maint., but the points are based on the missions done as well, they increase (in case the unit succeeds!).
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Loyalty is very important, it was very important to your earlier arguments as well. I was showing the ineffectiveness of bribes, particuarly in the area of combat. Would a House Regular believe the word of a miserable merc scum anyway?
Americans? Training? Gee from my experience it was the opposite. Training and in particular cross training within your area of operations eg tank gunner learning basics of driving and servicing tank, is markedly lacking.
Umm, if you consider bribes opening a com-channel and telling them in mid-fight "Hey Guys, I buy your mechs" they will fail of course.
In oder to get a successfull bride you need to find out first who is not satisfied with his situation, who is in debt etc...
Not everyone is satisfied with the house he works for, his situation, his life or his officiers, neither everyone is free of greed.
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It wouldn't matter what you are limited to, conflict will undoubtedly follow. Garrison Duty could in fact be a ruse and the employer could be only using the contract to get mercs to fight a Defensive Campaign, there are provisions to protect mercs from this but it doesn't stop an Employer from doing it.
For military command + no salvage rights (which is usally garrision duty) you get a high percentage of employer paid repair, if he does not agree, it's fishy.
No employer in the BT world would make a high repair deal if he exspects heavy combat, if you do not test out if he does, it's your fault, if he pays the bills, it's not really your problem (except your employer might be dead after the contract ends).
If he might be dead, refuses to pay repair and does not like to give away salvage rights, only a *complete* idiot accepts that contract !
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Huh? Is this some kind of warped logic? The IS was upgrading their units, supply of level 2 equipment was not meeting DEMAND, how would a financially restricted pathetic little lance be able to subvert level 2 equipment for its own purposes?
Lol, read again what I wrote above about blackmarkets and what I wrote in the first posting.
Sending a lance against a lvl 1 opponent does not justify buying level 2 stuff, but however if you face modern troops you will get wacked if you do not upgrade.
And yes, even if you pay 2x for a weapon, because it pays off, just being able to get stuff others don't get makes you look smart - but being unable to get stuff others get makes you look green.
As I stated x-times now, getting a few items is never a problem, but getting many is.
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Regulars are common, Greens are common, I wouldn't say the same for Veterans and definitely not the same for Elites.
They might be more common for you, but I suppose some players can only enjoy using hightech elite troops against green lowtech troops.
1) I suggest you keep it civil and stop posting flamebaits, which you do.
2) Reading is an art, the first thing you stated was: Housetroops always have veterans within their ranks to train -> correct.
What I said was: mercs are mainly regulars / veterans. Veterans are regs with combat experience, that's what mercs are basicly, basic troops, but more combat experience than a regular soldier.
If the major mix for basic house troops is green/reg, the mix for mercs is reg/vet, one level more.
You do not hire a merc if you think no combat is going to happen... Mercs are either surviving it, or dead... it leaves not many greens...
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Which was a major beef I had with the standard experience progression of troops. The more experienced the unit the quicker it went up (old systems included 4 kills to drop a gunnery or piloting, or in the BMR 8 experience points for gunnery and 4 for piloting at a guess), talking RPG though I wouldn't know which dodgey system you would be referring to, I only really played Mechwarrior 2 roleplaying when I did try my hand at the RPG side of the game.
Mechwarrior 2 was that thing that allowed 0/0 startup PCs I think.
I never used Mechwarrior for Mech-based combat, I used BT instead and used for the basic skill system MW.
The last thing I read was BT4, which was +4 Kills = -1 @ one of the skills. Better thing imho, would take 28 Kills to turn 5/4 to 1/1... and 28 kills are alot...
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Fuzzy maths again eh? Off the top of my head transport costs.
Lance - Leopard Class Dropship 60,000 c-bills per jump
Company - Union Class Dropship 150,000 c-bills per jump
Dropship - 50,000 c-bills per hardpoint per jump
Result:
Lance 27,500 c-bills per mech per jump
Company 16,667 c-bills per mech per jump
As you were saying?
You think that's cheap ? Moving a mech via a Dropships costs you more than to pay the wage for the pilot a whole year ! A lance to the destination and back costs 120k, I rather use 1 better lance than 2 lances that are as good.
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Being able to use the units would negate some of this. Besides that the one real advantage would be something like double heat sinks. That would be the biggest single advantage a new tech unit would have over an old-tech one. Medium Lasers are available to everyone and is one of the best weapons in the game...
Umm, did you notice that I errored in the ER Meds. and put except for the ER PPC/Pulse Laser pretty much everything @lvl 1 into them ? Nr 1 was the max you can get, Nr 2b the one you should get.
The best one of these is the 2b, which fields mainly the old stuff. The first one is the most expensive one in terms of tech / price.
Lmao, oh well, just because I trash these I in 1min it does not mean I think they should be used this way, I'm well aware that the C3 is late stuff, but the Beagle/ECM is not SOTA that you can't get it.
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You seem infatuated with the idea that you want to be a merc and yet still have everything (like technology, experience, loyalty etc). In fact in the Battletech Universe it is shown to be the opposite. Learn to thrive on hardship, that is what it is like to be a Merc.
Gimme a break. I stated already above: Stop playing though police and stop starting flamebaits.
However, to imagine what I like, or even what I have to like/dislike is byond your rights.
You can hunt level 2 mechs with level 1 mechs if you like to, I myself prefer to hunt level 1 mechs with level 1 mechs. I do not really like the whole level 2 stuff...
I'm thinking about level 2 because 25 years do pass by and then I have to care for level 2, or I trash the whole storyline and leave it at level 1...
greets
Minni
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Nightward
07/20/04 07:06 PM
203.134.40.133
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Uh, yeah. What Greyslayer said.
Units like the Kell Hounds and Wolf Dragoons are not the norm in BT. The Kell Hounds had the power of 'Mech manufacturing plants and weapons factories behind them, and were lead by the Duke of Arc-Royal. They got the best stuff because they could afford to.
Normal Merc units get boned by their employers. It's what they call "The Company Store". They pay the Mercs as little as possible, and screw them as much as they can on repair, supply, and salvage as they can. If a Merc outfit is not careful, they wind up heavily in debt to their employers.
The units in novels- Wolf Dragoons, Kell Hounds, Northwind Highlanders, Eridani Light Horse, MacCarron's Armoured Cavalry etc all started out big. Either as SLDF Brigades or from the Clans. Other outfits were patronised by these large units- Legion of the Rising Sun, Blue Star Irregulars, Snord's Irregulars, etc- and that's how they got so large and earned their reputations.
I can think of exactly two outfits from the novels that reflect how Mercs actually work from a startup situation- the Gray Death Legion and the Black Thorns. But Grayson Death Carlyle was raised as a Merc and MechWarrior from birth, and got real lucky with his campaigns. His victories aren't too whacky if you play the scenarios, but a winning streak like that is pretty damn good. And he found the Helm Memory Core, which is why the GDL has such an impressive TO&E.
The Black Thorns were lead by a Com Guard veteran of Tukayyid. Need I say more?
From about 3050 to 3055, the Great Houses were concentrating on upgrading their units and rebuilding their losses. I think that even large Merc units that could afford Level 2 Tech would have had enough brains to go to town on the military surplus supplies of Level One technologies that were being created during the Upgrade Frenzy.
Only the most loyal and most Elite Merc outfits, like the ELH and GDL would have been supplied with upgrades during those times. The Wolf Dragoons and Kell Hounds could supply their own, or could at least bargain Clan tech away in exchange for unit upgrades.
I think that by about 3058 the tide has shifted, with the major Houses no longer reliant on House Marik's manufacturing power. This theory is somewhat bourne out by the explosion of upgraded Tanks and new, high-tech designs from TR: 3058, and the arrival of the Inner Sphere OmniMech.
At this time, the benefits of the Lostech xplosion pass down to ordinary Mercs. Remember that in your campaign, however, the players aren't and should never be like the large and powerful units. Those are there for the air of mystique, not because it's the norm.
Finally, your Atlas.
Question one: How the hell did a Merc outfit get their hands on such an incredible 'Mech? Do you know how rare Atlases are in the fiction? They could only build a handful of Atlases a year, and they were always assigned to the very, very best of House militaries- Morgan Hasek-Davion, Prince Davion's brother (whose name I forget), and so on. Not to mention that at 100 tons, it would be an incredible strain to maintain for a Lance-sized Merc unit. And because it's so slow and specialised, it would limit their flexibility so much it wouldn't even be funny.
Question two: How the hell does a Merc unit get their hands on the new, cutting edge, Draconis Combine technology of C3? The Dragon had a limitless hatred of Mercs! It was so new, it had barely even been deployed! Until 3055, even the DCMS weren't fielding standardised units that included C3! And yet some two-bit Merc outfit can get their hands on them? Eh?
Question three: And what about the rest of the electronics suite? The only unit that included such an array back in 3050 was the upgraded RVN-3L Raven, and that was largely due to out-of-game concerns; the Raven was supposed to be a EW 'Mech, but until the advent of Level Two tech, there was no way to adequetly represent the gear it carried. I can't think of any other design that carries more than two pieces of EW gear off hand, and certainly nothing that was available before 3055 even to House militaries.
I think that Mercs would have been able to get their hands on Double Heat Sinks fairly early on, say '51-'52. The new lasers, PPCs, and armours would have been avalable in maybe '53-'54, and then the advanced stuff like Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous, as well as the fancy EW stuff, would have arrived in '55. ER Lasers and the other calibres of Ultra AutoCannon were in FM: Free Worlds League, so might have become available in very late '59 to Mercs. MRMs aren't that advanced, and neither are Rocket Launchers, so they could be available as early as '59 if you wanted to. Light Gauss Cannon might have come out in '59 or '60.
Things like C3, Targeting Computers, Stealth Armour, Light Engines, Heavy Gauss, etc, though, will remain he sole province of House Militaries for quite some time to come.
Finally, on the "flamebait" thing. Your views are a little inconsistant with the way things work in BT fiction. Greyslayer's a stickler for detail, and you did sort of antagonise him.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
07/21/04 06:34 AM
203.61.72.223
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Finally, on the "flamebait" thing. Your views are a little inconsistant with the way things work in BT fiction. Greyslayer's a stickler for detail, and you did sort of antagonise him.
In fact he/she is consistant, consistantly wrong but still consistant
I think 'stickler for detail' was being nice
I have no idea what Minnime's true intention is, only a newbie here and so far hasn't really shown much for the experience. (eg Hunting Big Game was a weird and unsatisfactory mech, probably not that good at hunting big game either).
The topic was how to setup a merc unit, a unit 25+ years old is not setting up a unit. Having Custom Mechs with Technology not even available to general house units in which the tech was created is another issue as well.
Obviously playing the game for enjoyment is the major objective. I get enjoyment from playing the game closer to the BT universe reality of the time period.
Relative difficulty is also based on the source of the material. FM: Mercenaries certainly creates a fairly easy life for the mercs, access to Clan Tech, Elite recruiters cannot roll greens etc...
Now there were two arguments Minnime seemed to cling too:
Blackmarket or the illegal purchase of technologies not freely available
Experienced Troops or all troops within a mercenary force having prior combat expernece.
The Blackmarket isn't some corner store, if a player gets caught buying via this means it could cause many problems for the unit. Ranging from hefty fines to jail time or even unit disbandment and blacklisting. There is always a chance regardless of size of order that you will get busted, in fact it might be a fairly big giveaway when a unit fields level2 equipment when they previously didn't.... Wolf Dragoons security personnel WOULD follow-up on suspicious things like this.
Experienced Troops would look for large Experienced Commands. In general the Large Experienced Command would take a good % of the stable and loyal veterans and elites kicking about even stable and loyal regulars would be snapped up by these units. Lets face it, there has to be a reason why the pilot left a House Regiment, the pilot may not have liked authority and discipline or they reckoned there was more money or glory in it being a merc. Do those types really sound stable and loyal to you a mercenary commander?
Academy dropouts, Private Academy or unit trained personnel are not uncommon. They are looking for a chance to prove themselves and are dirt cheap. Probably a good investment for the long term.
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