Another of those "who would win" arguements on a Grand Scale...

Other : Off Topic Previous Index Next Threaded
Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)
cmryan
08/04/04 07:51 AM
4.12.82.110

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Helo Spartan, I didnt follow DS9 closely either but I think you got it right.
cmryan
08/04/04 08:17 AM
4.12.82.110

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Hello Lone_Wolf, The obvious threat posed by the Empire or the Borg Replicant collective give the alliance strong incentive to stay close to each other. In the early stages of the alliance I believe leadership would rotate between the members nations.
One interesting speculation is can the Federation preserve an independant StarFleet. The Federation and StarFleet are the smallest member of the Alliance. If the Galactic Patrol is allowed to recruit Federation citizians to join the Patrol and if Federation humans have the ability to become Lensman. I think that eventually the Federation and Star Fleet will be merged into the Civilization of the Lens.
The Star League might also face this possibility but the Star League is a lot bigger than the Federation in terms of population and planets so the assimilation would take much longer.
The Galactic Patrol patrols two galaxies. The Asgard can travel between galaxies. The Empire is a galaxy spanning power. Poor Star Fleet.
I think your correct about the Star Trek nemesis species. The Klingons, Romulans Cardissians Breen, would try to defend themselves and establish a niche. They might even formulate their own min-alliance in defence against the Founders of the Dominion. The Jem Had'r if I am remembering correctly are all clones not a regular species with families and history. The Empire of Boskone was destroyed by the Galactic Patrol by the end of the Lensman books. If I remember my B5 continuity correctly the Vorlon and the Shadows both abandoned their holdings and left for parts unknown. That abandoned space could become a flash point in a war. The Vulcans are founding members of the Federation. I expect them to stick with the Federation.
cmryan
08/04/04 11:39 AM
68.136.26.206

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I think your correct about the Star Trek nemesis species. The Klingons, Romulans Cardissians Breen, would try to defend themselves and establish a niche. They might even formulate their own min-alliance in defence against the Founders of the Dominion. The Jem Had'r if I am remembering correctly are all clones not a regular species with families and history. The Empire of Boskone was destroyed by the Galactic Patrol by the end of the Lensman books. If I remember my B5 continuity correctly the Vorlon and the Shadows both abandoned their holdings and left for parts unknown. That abandoned space could become a flash point in a war. The Vulcans are founding members of the Federation. I expect them to stick with the Federation.
I think that the Ferengi would be pulled into the Star Trek Nemesis Alliance. The Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and the Breen could simply threaten to start doing business with Ferengi females offering sanctuary as part of any business deal and the Ferengi would find themselves with a choice of joining the Nemesis Alliance or waging war against Mom. Quite a choice.
The Nemesis Alliance is in quite a bind. The Cardassians have seen their empire used as a major battleground in the Dominion War. The Klingons are not much better off after the Duras Civil War the war against the Federation the war against the Dominion and the internal strife caused by cloning Kahless. The Romulans have apparently lost control of the Dilithium mines on Remus the Remans are in full rebellion. Isn't it interesting that slave labor was able to design and build the Scimitar prototype? I suspect the Dominion was helping the Remans. Lets not forget that the Romulan Senate was murdered. So control of the Romulan Empire has passed to brand new and therefore inexperienced leadership. I don't know anything about the Breen but they can't be to popular after siding with the Dominion. If the leadership of this alliance can do much. But here are some suggestions.
The Romulans should quickly blame the Scimitar incident on Dominion shapeshifters. The Scimitar class of ship offers an opportunity to revive the Klingon Romulan trade agreements that were mentioned in Star Trek TOS. Also the new Romulan Senate should scour its archives for evidence that its predecessors were involved in anti-Klingon activity and publicy declare that those days are over. The Klingons after all the heavy fighting they have been through are weaker than they might care to admit. Shifting blame to the Dominion and declaring their own honor satisfied by the death of the previous Romulan Senate allows the Klingons to share in the new capabilities provided by the Scimitar class of ship. Remember the advantages of the economies of scale. Hopefully the Cardassians can make a similar offer and the Scimitar will become the stand battlecruiser of the Nemesis Alliance. Recruiting the Ferengi as full members of the Nemesis Alliance is actually quite easy and requires no military commitment.
The members of the Alliance simply inform the Grand Nagus that they will enter into business agreements with Ferengi females and offer them and their families sanctuary if they request it. This puts the Grand Nagus in quite a spot.
Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/05/04 04:55 PM
129.33.119.12

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Vorlons and Shadows could find themselves being caught in the midst of this... Why not, whatever brought the others together certainly would not want anyone feeling "left out"... The Jem Hadar were genetically created If I remember correctly, but were as limited in their usefulness outside of battle as they were useful in battle. As far as a Niche, I think the Romulans, being descended of the Vulcans, would have the common sense (or dare I say Logic?) to evaluate all sides, and being ever the manipulators and opportunists, would play them all off one another in an attempt to position themselves for Alliance or Conquest with whoever they deem the strongest. The Breen, while little shown in the TV series, are much mentioned, and from what I understand, will side with ANYONE willing to topple the Federation. The Vulcans, pasifists all and logically inclined, would probably balk at the Federation being absorbed or even dismantled, and spend the majority of their time studying the new species and galaxy they found themselves in. The minor players, probably in the hundreds, would for common sense's sake join the Empire or this "Alliance" you've mentioned, for their very survival... That would leave only the species too proud or too unable to comprehend the polarizing effect of political alliance, such as the Zerg, the Aliens, the 'Nids, the Minions (obscure reference- Minions are an artificial race not unlike the replicators first seen in the computer game "ascendancy")... These races, along with rogues or malcontents from the Empire and the Federation (the Maquis, Rogue warlord fleets), would form an interesting wild card element... I believe the bounty hunters would have more contracts than they could shake a stick at, and the assorted intelligence agencies (Tal Shiar, Obsidian order, Imperial intelligence) would be bogged down with new technologies and first contacts, some bogged down to the point of ineffectiveness. It would boil down to where each faction starts relative to one another and who shows the ability to mobilize and move the most equipment... Here again, the Empire shines, as does the Asgard, and to a lesser extent, the Envyyid... Leadership would probably change hands often for the smaller players whenever a loss is incurred, Earth Dome and Starfleet command would institute martial law, and a new Emperor would ascend the Klingon throne... The ability to survive chaos and upheaval may well prove just as effective as stifling numbers and technology...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
cmryan
08/06/04 06:31 AM
4.12.82.110

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
You make a good point about the Vorlon and Shadows. Heck they could decide to move after the wormholes open up. Who knows whre they would decide to go? Maybe some piece of interstellar real estate desired by someone else. I think we are in agreement that the Jem Hadr are a weak link in the Dominion power structure. Hmmm. The shapeshifiting abilities of the Founders have been exposed. The Jem Hadr are one trick ponies and drug addicts to boot. The Vorta are also clones. The Dominion looks to be vulnerable to upheaval. The Founders really need to integrate the Predators quickley.
The Romulans would recognize the potential of the Nemesis Alliance with themselves in control, of course. As for the Vulcans balking at the absorption or dismantling of the Federation. The choice is not entirely theirs to make. All member worlds get the vote.
The Star League will have some very big mental adjustments to make when they start meeting aliens and encounter beings using the Force and the telepathic Lensman of the Galactic Patrol. An interesting technology mix is possible between The Star League and the StarTrek universes. Imagine Battlemechs with deflector shields or maybe a small matter antimatter powerplant. The Aliens will need to be contained and will be. I can imagine the beings in the intelligence agencies of any government pulling their hair out as the first contacts start streaming in and their bosses start demanding answes now.
Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/06/04 07:54 AM
65.1.42.9

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Agreed, though I think containing the Aliens and Zerg would prove harder amidst a war... Another interesting BT mix would be with the Dune universe... could you imagine Guild Navigators with Assault mechs? What about the Face Dancer assassins, I think at the least house Liao would be interested in them. The Dominion would have to find a source of stability quick, or they need not worry about outside invasion... I believe they would crumble from the inside amidst all the turmoil... I think anyone who WOULD have allied with them would much rather capatalize on their apparent weakness, Federation included, citing their histories together... I think the Vorlons and Shadows would attempt to cow the other species at first as they did the species in Babylon 5, and failing that, would attack those they could beat and suck up to those they could not... The shadows, at least, showed themselves to be nothing if not predators of opportunity...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
SoyBigHead
08/06/04 12:21 PM
68.57.150.99

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
i win.
"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
cmryan
08/06/04 04:22 PM
68.136.26.8

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I don't think to many people would worry about containing a bunch of Aliens. They would decide to isolate them long enough to call in heavy weapons. I really don't know anything about the Zerg. Unfortunately I can't imagine Guild Navigators in possession of assault mechs. I haven't read the Dune books in a looong time. Your right about the Dominion needing stability and quick or face internal collapse. The reputation of the Founders for being infallible is history. Everyone in the Star Trek universe recognizes that the Jem Had'r and the Vorta clones and the cloning facilities are a weak link. I can easily imagine that he Nemesis Alliance wanting to divert attention from its own weakness ordering raids on facilities making Ketrocel White and cloning facilities. If their sensor capabilites have improved as a result of the experience of the Dominion War they might be able to scan a planetary surface from transporter range identify any Founders on the surface and beam them up. They even need to be killed. Simply exposing the presence of a Founder will continue to turn everyone against the Founders and the Dominion. Also the Dominion shipyards manufacture ships designed for Jem Had'r. So not only must the Founders replace the Jem Had'r they have to completely redesign and replace their entire war fleet and military infrastrure. If the Founders , the Vorta and anyone else in the Dominion that knows whats going on has any brains they will throw themselves on the mercy of the Federation. The Federation will appeal to the Star League for a coalition of troops to discourage raiding and give the Dominion a change to change without shattering completely. Of course the Galactic Empire will see Battlemechs moving into Dominion space and being adopted by the StarTrek universe. They respond by contacting their new "allies" the Clans and asking them to deploy near Dominion Space "just in case". Also since the Vorlon and the Shadows are mobile and ruthless. Someone has to do something about them. Unless they do something first, like maybe choose a side.
Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/06/04 05:54 PM
129.33.119.12

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I think by this point the founders are too proud or too shamed to throw themselves upon federation mercy, so they may even be driven to the waiting jaws of the Empire, or one of the Rogue states, in a last ditch effort to stabilize and still prove themselves superior to the Federation... Navigators in an assault mech would have the abilities to fold (or teleport if you prefer) as well as conduct and discharge electrical current in enough quantities to harm battle vehicles... Could you imagine shooting at a daishi only to watch it vanish in front of you, appear behind you, short you out with lightning and commence to stomping you? ugh... And Surely with the inclusion of the Clans, a hybrid Elemental-Stormtrooper would start showing up, boasting the tech of the Stormtrooper with the Genetics of the Elemental. Imagine a point of Elementals with Lightsabers implanted where the machine gun used to be, slicing a heavy lance?... ouch...The Tech mixes from this "alliance" alone could fill another full threaded post... The Zerg I pulled from the Starcraft Video game, are for all intents and purposes a Biological version of the Replicators, or if you need another similar example, the Tielaxu Leeches and Contaminators... They would be a wild card for sure, too hive minded to ever be reasoned with. By this point any minor players that haven't found an ally or a great place to hide should be considered out of contention for ease of management of the rest of this discussion, unless you just happen to find out some obscure fact about them and have to add it in...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
cmryan
08/07/04 11:21 AM
4.12.82.110

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I think that the Founders are smart enough to stay away from the Galactic Empire.
A Navigator can teleport something the size of an assault and generate large scale electrical attacks. OUCH! If Spice is what makes that kind of power possible than the Navigators are going to be very busy definding the source of Spice. I can imagine a point of Elementals with lightsabers. Just when you thought Elementals couldn't get anymore dangerous. Have you considered the mixing of Star Trek tech with BattleTech. Imagine adding tractor beams to Mechs. If the Elementals are swarming over a mech in your lance you simply fire up you tractor beam and flick the pest away. No friendly fire damage from using lasers or autocannon to dislodge the Elemental. I remember an episode of DS9 where a murderer was using a sniper rifle that had a mini transporter mated to it. Pull the trigger the bullet reaches the transporter the bullet is transported past the intervening bulkheads and materializes in the room of the victim with its momentum intact. Scale that up for use with Gauss Rifles and autocannon and watchout. The transporter might also replace the LRM launcher and stand off weapons like aritillery and the Arrow IV missle system. No missle trajectory to backtrack.
Spartan
08/08/04 12:52 PM
67.64.106.25

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
There's a problem with using a transporter on (most) combat weapons though. You can't beam anything through shields. You can't beam anything when there's any sort of radiation or exotic mineral around. Etc.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
cmryan
08/09/04 10:58 AM
68.136.26.146

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Hello Spartan, I agree with you about the inabilty of a transporter to beam anything through a shield. However not all targets are permanently shielded. Also simply think about using the transporter to extend the range of a weapon or to bypass armor and go damage internal components. Have a sniper with a mini-transporter equipped sniper rifle start taking shots at the gyro of a mech or shoot at the pilot without breaking the cockpit canopy. The limitations imposed by backround radiation and exotic minerals maybe the factor that really limits deployment of transporter equipped weapons.
One other thought that occurs to me. What would be the probable effect of Star Trek replicator technology in BattleTech. The big problem would be legal. If you are using a replicator to manufacture a replacement piece of armor and the armor is a product protected by patent and copyright law. You are either legally limited to using armor that is not legally protected.
Spartan
08/09/04 04:20 PM
67.64.117.179

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
But you can't beam through armor. Remember, heavy metals block transporters.

And the replicators are limited to what they can make, I'm pretty sure they are unable to make sheets of armor.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Gnome76
08/10/04 02:26 AM
68.12.242.212

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I thought you were talking about the Replicators from Stargate SG-1 for a second there.
cmryan
08/10/04 11:35 AM
68.136.26.20

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Hello Spartan, Going by what I remember of Star Trek TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY I don't remember seeing or hearing about transporter emitters. So a transporter works with whatever structural materials are used in starship and starbase construction. Plus there are numerous scenes of people beaming in and out of caves, buildings and starships in various stages of distress and self destruction. The problems that transporters have with backround radiation appear to stem from specific elements. If work remains as slow as it has been for the past few days I may spend some time browsing Star Trek sites to see if there is any better information on the strengths and weakness of transporters.
I will also look up replicators. IIRC there was an episode were a Commander Eddington hijacked a shipment of 12 industrial replicators for the Maquis. I get the impression that industrial replicators can and do produce large items.
Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/29/04 05:13 PM
129.33.119.12

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Sorry, real life caused me to abandon this thread for a while, but... Very interesting ideas indeed, Cmryan... though I don't think the Transporter is as versatile or accurate as to be mounted on mechs or even on bullets... There are just too many variables and materials out there to interrupt them, I'm sure like the Inferno round or the Ion Cannon, it'll find it's interesting niche, but overall it won't replace any weapons system... Now gauss rifles on the other hand, with Star Wars or Star trek sensor systems for tracking and power cores, could become killers from extreme ranges... Overall I'm going to remain with my initial finding that the Galactic Empire would win, but it would certainly be more interesting now than in the first run through....
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
cmryan
08/30/04 08:47 AM
68.136.26.122

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Real Life. Whats that??? Welcome back Lone Wolf. Transporters are mounted on StarFleet shuttlecraft which I think are comparable in size and weight to a Mech. The transporter would not be mounted on the individual round of ammo. It would be mounted on the weapon firing the round of ammo. I agree that importing StarWars or StarTrek sensors and power supplies would really seriously power up Mechs. I also consider that the Galactic Empire is a prohibitive favorite to win any war with any other faction or even alliance of other powers.
Brandx0
08/30/04 02:31 PM
24.207.34.161

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I don't have the time to write it all out at the moment, maybe later I'll write up the reasons why, but you people should do some research on Warhammer 40,000... Without a doubt we have a winner there, the Imperium of Man makes the Galactic Empire look like a school yard bully
Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/30/04 04:02 PM
129.33.119.12

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I have to disagree with you there, I'm not up on current WH40k lore, but last I saw they lack in numbers and ability to deploy regiments of equipment across galaxies in a matter of days, like the Empire can... I agree like all the other Factions they would certainly make a run of it and create a more interesting scenario, but all in all (judging by the way each faction was written) the Empire has an advantage in brute numbers, tech, and speed...
-Wolf
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/30/04 04:05 PM
129.33.119.12

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
True, and Thanks, cmryan... Plus, the addition of tech from any species/faction that the Empire absorbed would only make them even more dangerous... While the others continue fighting each other and themselves for survival, the larger factions only grow and conquer, like fire ants across a yard... WH40K was mentioned, and Humanity there didn't fare as well as the 'Nids or even the Orks, but it was agreed that even the Hive-like 'nids could be stopped by sub-Imperial weaponry.
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
flipper1028
09/22/04 07:22 AM
165.139.123.60

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Hi all,

Just going through the forums while at work. I find this to be very interesting thread.
I only have one thing to add.
The Ancheints from Star Gate were not gods. They were an advanced civilization who created the Star Gate and many other wonders of technoligy. They learned to evolve to a higher power after milinea. (spelling) They were also the creators of the city of Atlantis. They would make your conversation interesting.

I will not mention Star Gate : Atlantis for it is new and we dont know enough about the evil villian there "The Wraith"

Thanks for the insightful look into other universes.
Jim (flipper)
flipper1028
09/22/04 07:38 AM
165.139.123.60

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
One more thought...

IMHO I think no matter what factions you make or who is allied with who.. I think that the empire would win out in the long run for one main reason...

Their pure evilness.. I mean they would have no problem destroying a whole world to achieve their goals of complete domination.

Dont get me wrong I am one of the lame.. "good guys win" people. but in all honestly the good guys would not go to extremes and that would cause them to stretch their forces to every hot spot in the galaxies. RL example is USA they would not cause mass causilties to achieve a small objective instead try to go with a small infiltration and take out one individual. Where as the Empire would simply destroy the whole world if it is suspected of being a hide out for rebels. In their approach they would simply show up destroy world move oon to the next.

Hope I explained it right for you to understand my point of view
Thanks Jim (flipper)
Wraith
09/22/04 10:26 AM
129.101.55.124

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I think that humans would win. Has anyone read "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" by Charles Sheffield? One of my favorite books. Humans invent a caesura, which takes anything put into it and, almost invariably, casts it out of our universe/dimension altogether. Statistically, it is possible for whatever is sent through it to just go to some random point/time in our own universe. But I'd like to see the Borg compete with essentially an indestructible space-time anomaly that can be placed anywhere, and will effectively destroy anything (including stars).
-Wraith
Brandx0
09/22/04 08:54 PM
24.207.43.89

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
While I'm not saying that the Empire are nice guys. If you want a scale of truly evil, I'm afraid the empire is simply not anywhere close to evil incarnate, perhaps you should read on some more gothic fiction (I'm going to bring up Warhammer 40,000 again here)

Whether any forces from Warhammer win in a battle sense is irrelivant, on an evil scale its tough to get more malevolant than the Forces of Chaos, Dark Eldar, C'Tan, Necrons or Tyranids.
flipper1028
09/23/04 05:52 AM
165.139.123.60

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Sorry wasnt trying to state who was more evil, just pointing out that the evil side would have a distinct advantage due to lack of hesitation in mass genocide. Where as the good guys would not think of it.

But I would have to agree with your post, I have played and read some on WH40K. They are evil.
cmryan
09/23/04 05:29 PM
68.136.26.129

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Hello flipper I don't think that the good guys will have any problem thinking up mass genocide. If you examine the history of the various factions discussed in this thread they all mention genocide at some point in their history. So they might be reluctant to launch a genocidal attack but it wouldn't be out of ignorance.

One other point just occured to me. What about the Genesis Device from StarTrek if you use it on an inhabited world. Say you convert a planet of Borg Drones into a Risa pleasure colony have you committed genocide?
Brandx0
09/24/04 12:10 AM
24.207.43.89

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Depends on who you ask, the borg or the federation. The federation will say "yes" and the borg will say "Resistance is Futile"
Lone_Wolf_Radick
11/11/04 04:21 PM
129.33.119.12

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Actually, the factions represented show both the capacity of man to be great and grealy evil, as well as our fear of the unknown, as evidenced by the horrible species like the borg... Overall, be it attrition, be it evil, be it simply popularity and good writing, I still think that the Empire would eventually rise to the top and crush the rest, especially considering it's a good chance many of them would eliminate each other in petty squabbles or willingly join a bigger faction long before facing one of the "major" players... sorry about ignoring the thread all, it was going great for a while...
-Wolf
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)

Extra information
0 registered and 1 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, mattbuck, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 19432


Contact Admins Sarna.net