JaguarDragoon
09/18/04 06:10 PM
24.199.66.133
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Sorry if i seemed to have been asleep for a year but i would like someone to please fill me in on what has happened to the clans since the formation of the republic. I'm hearing things like a ghost bear khan yielding his power to an elected Rasalhague prince, abandoning clan customs and renaming their realm as the Rasalhague Dominion! Also stuff about clan wolf demanding acceptance into the republic and a clan civil war between the invasion and home clans, in which the invasion clans are pushed out of the pentagon worlds and kerensky cluster and denied their traditional enclaves on strana mechty and positions in the grand council. This all seems to me very screwed up and out of character, even for wardens. Yet, probably the most lopsided and unrealistic rumor I've heard would be about clan sea fox(formally Clan Diamond Shark); a "clan" wandering around space in ships because they lost all their enclaves some how, now selling services like a wandering gypse caravan of salesmen. Could someone please verify these rumors and if they are true, give me the full story and your opinion about these events and anything else that includes them. I just can't believe these guys are the same fighting force that in 3050AD that stormed out of the periphery in a rapid advance unseen since the starleague with a way of life and a goal ingrained in them from 4 centuries of blood and discipline only to be changed in a mere decade.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
09/18/04 07:24 PM
129.33.119.12
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Well, basically, Dark Age is what happened when FASA folded and Wizkids took over... they emasculated the clans and twisted the storyline in an attempt to reinvigorate the license, knowing full well they would alienate hard core CBT fans in the process... New writers who have no knowledge of the previous storyline don't help, nor do outdated legal issues with the whole "unseen" mess... However, despite the fact that IMHO Dark age really bites and is not CBT in any form, sales are pretty good, so I guess the sell-out was warranted from a business standpoint... I agree though, I think it'd take much more than a decade to erode clan lifestyle, or erode past hatreds between the great houses, it's like being in Bizzaro world when you play or read DA... but that's just me...
-Wolf
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Cray
09/18/04 10:44 PM
24.165.243.54
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I'm hearing things like a ghost bear khan yielding his power to an elected Rasalhague prince, abandoning clan customs and renaming their realm as the Rasalhague Dominion!
Ghost Bear Dominion, I think. The Ghost Bears made some of the most intelligent decisions for integrating themselves with their conquered population, and have benefitted from it. The people of Rasalhague stood behind them during the Jihad.
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Also stuff about clan wolf demanding acceptance into the republic
Nope, didn't happen. Clan Wolf is still Clan Wolf, and still has its invasion corridor.
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and a clan civil war between the invasion and home clans,
Not really. But no one's sure what happened; it hasn't been clearly specified. The home worlds have sealed themselves off.
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Yet, probably the most lopsided and unrealistic rumor I've heard would be about clan sea fox(formally Clan Diamond Shark); a "clan" wandering around space in ships because they lost all their enclaves some how, now selling services like a wandering gypse caravan of salesmen.
They have planetary enclaves. And remember that Diamond Shark's original name was Sea Fox. By going back to Sea Fox, the ex-Sharks reclaimed the name given to them by Nicholas Kerensky.
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I just can't believe these guys are the same fighting force that in 3050AD that stormed out of the periphery in a rapid advance unseen since the starleague with a way of life and a goal ingrained in them from 4 centuries of blood and discipline only to be changed in a mere decade.
More like 2 centuries, maybe 2.5 centuries. The Clans were founded in the early 2800s, so they weren't quite 250 years old when they invaded the Inner Sphere.
The Clans invaded a culture thousands of times larger than themselves. That they were able to achieve what they did was so much BS - they had (at the most) 50 warriors per planet, and needed to occupy and control billions of people per planet. You think they'd stay together in perfect form for another 100 years after all that?
The Ghost Bears suffered a predictable fate of a small group of conquerers settling into a much larger invasion. Of course, the Ghost Bears are economically quite well off and have an enthusiastic population behind them, one that's about 100 times larger than the entire Clan Home World population of 3050. The Jade Falcons rule the same old invasion corridor greatly impoverished by moronic Clan economic theories. The Wolves aren't much better off, having switched back to semi-Crusader and thus ignoring any intelligent concept of getting the most out of their conquered populations. The Sea Foxes have a couple of planetary enclaves, but the scars of whatever happened in the Clan Home Worlds have led them to put a lot of their core population on the move, to avoid the bloody purges that cost the Nova Cats so badly.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
09/18/04 10:50 PM
24.165.243.54
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Well, basically, Dark Age is what happened when FASA folded and Wizkids took over...
Well, do recall that the Dark Age was FASA's idea. FASA didn't have a chance to implement it before folding.
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New writers who have no knowledge of the previous storyline don't help
Most of the current writers (except for some of the novel writers who won't be writing MWDA material again) have been playing BT for over 15 years. Many worked for FASA, too, and the owners of Wizkids are the original FASA founders.
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nor do outdated legal issues with the whole "unseen" mess...
That's been resolved with TRO:Project Phoenix. The Unseen got a new look and are back. How are the Unseen's legal issues troubling BT anymore?
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agree though, I think it'd take much more than a decade to erode clan lifestyle,
Billions and billions of dead people helped, too.
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or erode past hatreds between the great houses,
I'm confused. There have been wars between the Houses after the Jihad. How are old hatreds gone? The Capellans and Davions fought in the "Victoria War," the Capellans and Lyrans have been eroding the former-FWL borders, the Ghost Bears and Combine fought again...the old hatreds still seem to be there. What were you thinking of when you said the old grudges were gone?
Edited by Cray (09/18/04 10:53 PM)
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JaguarDragoon
09/19/04 12:02 AM
24.199.66.133
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The Clans invaded a culture thousands of times larger than themselves. That they were able to achieve what they did was so much BS - they had (at the most) 50 warriors per planet, and needed to occupy and control billions of people per planet.
Well the same could be said of the Spartans and greeks, the english in the 100 years war, Germany, and the US. So the clan's intial victories are not unrealistic and were probably if anything downsized the total number of them. Look the greeks in every battle were out numbered during the persian wars by 2 times to a 100 times and everytime either held back the persians for days or defeated them outright and these are not exaggerations. They always out killed the persians and had minor casualties compared to persian death tolls. Why, beacuse the greeks won like the clans through superior equipment(greek:heavy hopilite armor, clan:omnimechs and elementals) and better tactics. In world war 1 and 2, germany won through their tactics and initiative like the surprise caused by the clan invasion that to the spheroids seemed to come out of nowhere. The american revolution could be BS, rebels against the first super power in history? It has happened recently, in somalia, 100 of america's delta force and rangers were trapped in a city of thousands of armed militia who have fought wars constantly. They all servived because they were better "soldiers"(clan:genetically superior bred warriors) and kill at least 1000 miltia. In the end, numbers dont mean anything now when you got superior technology and most inner sphere planets arn't as populated like capital world of great houses. Most have one major city and space port; when taken, the planet has basically fallen. Unless you unite in a defense you will fall to an enemy will one goal in mind. The inner sphere did not unite in the beginning and if not for the comguards, the houses would never have had the breathing space to mount a defense until after terra was taken.
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JaguarDragoon
09/19/04 12:24 AM
24.199.66.133
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"agree though, I think it'd take much more than a decade to erode clan lifestyle"
"Billions and billions of dead people helped, too."
It wasn't in the millions and even more died though the succession wars and the houses had no laws on combat. Clans on the other had laws on causing civilian deaths and property destruction which translates in to waste which all clanners hate. What happened at Edo, was an accident of an overstressed Jaguar officer. You could probably have done the same in those situations, I know I would.
" Stravag! I'm tired of this! These filthy kurita surats in their ignorance won't accept reality. We don't need these freebirth scum. I throw them to the flame to cleanse this planet of edo. Get that warship, I want it to burn them all!!"
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Cray
09/19/04 01:30 AM
24.165.243.54
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It wasn't in the millions and even more died though the succession wars
If we're talking about the Jihad, then, no. The Jihad equaled or exceed the casualties of the First and Second Succession Wars.
Edo was no accident. The Ghost Bears also threatened to exterminate billions of lives when the Rasalhaguians (sp?) kept rebelling and overthrowing the GB garrisons. Orbital bombardment of every city of every rebellious, GB-occupied planet.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
09/19/04 01:32 AM
24.165.243.54
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Well the same could be said of the Spartans and greeks, the english in the 100 years war, Germany, and the US.
No, we couldn't say the same. The US has over 150,000 troops - and more administrative personnel - occupying a nation of 25 million. The Clans used 50 warriors to occupy planets with 4 and 5 billion people.
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It has happened recently, in somalia, 100 of america's delta force and rangers were trapped in a city of thousands of armed militia who have fought wars constantly. They all servived because they were better "soldiers
I'm not talking about stand-up fights, I'm talking about control. The US didn't need 150,000 troops to pimp slap the Iraqi military out of existence. It is, however, having trouble maintaining the peace in Iraq with 150,000 troops. You know why? Because 150,000 troops aren't enough to be everywhere at all times making sure that the Iraqis aren't building bombs, stockpiling rifles, and otherwise being thoroughly annoying.
50 Clan warriors wouldn't be enough to police a capitol building on a planet of 4 billion people, let alone make sure that the bread trucks pulling up to the Clan barracks aren't stuffed with a ton of high explosives. When 1 Clan warrior goes out for a beer, where's he going to get protection from one angry citizen with a handgun? 50 occupation troops on a world of 4 billion won't be able to provide thousands of troops in every city to disarm the population, guard themselves, sweep for bombs, hunt guerillas, make sure factories on the far side of the planet aren't building mechs for guerillas, etc. The Clan invasion had a dash of plausibility, but the Clan occupation was BS.
Heck, the NYPD has over 10,000 personnel and it has trouble policing a city of a few million people. Why do you think 50 warriors could effectively control billions, short of threatening to exterminate them?
Edited by Cray (09/19/04 01:45 AM)
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JaguarDragoon
09/19/04 02:55 AM
24.199.66.133
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Threatening and doing are different things especially in politics. Every government makes threats in order to control its population. I never heard of the Ghost bears acually go that far and probably never will need to with their position now.
When You mean 50 warriors im hoping refering to a standard cluster of mech warriors. Clan clusters can compose of any number or combination of binaries and trinaries. There are not always clusters composed of only mech warriors, they can have a combination of mechwarriors, elementals and aerospace pilots. Clans do have combine arms units. With elementals whose units of warriors are 5 times the size of mech units. The unit on a planet can go from 30 to 400 warriors. Know not all units are full size. Those are only warriors, there are also tech and adminastrative personnel who would boost the total unit size to a 1000 or more. Regular infantry and convential units are also used and there units are larger and can be attached to provisional clusters for garrison duty farther increasing the number of personnel for combat and security. Also innersphere houses use regiments which are the equivalent to a cluster to garrison planets. The heavy use of regimental size units to guard planets would mean to me a low average population per planet. Also know that Clan warriors are used to fighting in the home worlds where the freebirth civilian population can be absorbed and change alleigences constantly, not that the economic system is any different and would probably still have their same jobs and would not care to rebel. Any way garrisons would depend on size of the planet population and clans would place galaxies if nessesary and planets are also used as staging points for assults so if would not be uncommon for frontline units to be placed on particular planets in addition to the regular garrison. I dont feel it would be in the civilians best interest to rebel unless their former House chooses to take the planet back anytime soon. They all sould know what happened to Edo, so it has been done and theres no reason for the other clans not to try the same solution. On the other hand the effect will vary and the choice of a scorched earth plan is their's but what would be the point of that.
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Cray
09/19/04 09:03 AM
24.165.243.54
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Threatening and doing are different things especially in politics.
It was a Clan Ghost Bear military commander's statement, not a politician's threat.
Further, if you think the Smoke Jaguar's little Edo incident was accidental, look at the record of Clan occupation. The invading Clans demonstrated "conquerer's disease" as they stole property from civilians and fought trials of possession amongst each other for choice estates. Millions of Nova Cat civilians were exterminated when the Clan left the Clan home worlds. Smoke Jaguars' idea of rooting out rebels was to shoot everyone they saw until someone confessed to being a rebel, then they liked to burn down the neighborhood just to make their point. The Clan record for atrocities goes back to Nicholas Kerensky, who used Maoist tactics of public torture during his reconquest of the Pentagon worlds. The Jade Falcons' internal purges at the end of their early, liberal years (when they had the nerve to question Nicholas's bloodiness) were awful, too.
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When You mean 50 warriors im hoping refering to a standard cluster of mech warriors. Clan clusters can compose of any number or combination of binaries and trinaries. There are not always clusters composed of only mech warriors, they can have a combination of mechwarriors, elementals and aerospace pilots. Clans do have combine arms units. With elementals whose units of warriors are 5 times the size of mech units. The unit on a planet can go from 30 to 400 warriors. Know not all units are full size. Those are only warriors, there are also tech and adminastrative personnel who would boost the total unit size to a 1000 or more. Regular infantry and convential units are also used and there units are larger and can be attached to provisional clusters for garrison duty farther increasing the number of personnel for combat and security.
1) The Clans have, in total, 110,500 warriors between all the Clans. Those include regular police. See: "Warriors of Kerensky Sourcebook."
2) The Clans have, in total, 1.15 billion people on the Clan home worlds, c3050. Individual Clans range between 60 and 100 million total population. They're invading the Inner Sphere, which has 2000 planets averaging 2-3 billion people per planet.
Ergo, the Invading Clans will not be able to muster 1000 personnel to occupy many worlds. And when they do, they won't achieve a helluva lot. Maybe watch one small city for signs of rebellion.
So when the Clans start disappearing into the local populations as the timeline moves forward, don't be so surprised. Be surprised that a couple of car bombs and mortar attacks per planet didn't exterminate whole Clan garrisons.
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Also innersphere houses use regiments which are the equivalent to a cluster to garrison planets.
The Inner Sphere also has the population numbers to at least provide plausible numbers of occupation administrative workers and para-military units. A regiment to provide heavy military firepower and 100,000 occupation workers - the IS has the population to do that.
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heavy use of regimental size units to guard planets would mean to me a low average population per planet
This is what the Ghost Bears bit into: about 70 planets, average population 4 billion. The populations were not low in the invasion corridor.
Rasalhague Dominion Today
And, apparently, it is the Rasalhague Dominion, not the GB dominion.
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not that the economic system is any different and would probably still have their same jobs and would not care to rebel.
The Clan economic system is drastically different. The Clans only build "the necessities," which would mean producing nothing but food, housing, clothing, and war material. (See: Warriors of Kerensky. The Clans don't even use money, electronic or hard, among their common population.) Producing the necessities takes a small percentage of a planet's population, leaving the rest with nothing to do and the economy nowhere to go but implode as all those workers find their jobs deemed non-necessary. The best examples are in the Smoke Jaguar and Jade Falcon invasion corridors, where the planets were impoverished within just a few years.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (09/19/04 09:22 AM)
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JaguarDragoon
09/19/04 01:21 PM
24.199.66.133
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Threatening and doing are different things especially in politics.
It was a Clan Ghost Bear military commander's statement, not a politician's threat.
In Clan society, warriors are the politicians as they are the only ones allowed a chance to attain the highest clan poistion, khan and are incharge of the planets they guard. The statment has both military and political motives behind it. To crush potenial rebellions and to show that they are serious. The jaguars have always looked upon freebirths as subservants and don't tolerate dissension. So, the incidents at Edo and other places sould be no surprise. Under Clan government, there is not such thing as private property. everything belongs to the clan as a whole, so seizing property or declaring trials of possession for civilian property in the name of their khan or clan is well within their rights as warriors.
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not that the economic system is any different and would probably still have their same jobs and would not care to rebel.
The Clan economic system is drastically different. The Clans only build "the necessities," which would mean producing nothing but food, housing, clothing, and war material. (See: Warriors of Kerensky. The Clans don't even use money, electronic or hard, among their common population.) Producing the necessities takes a small percentage of a planet's population, leaving the rest with nothing to do and the economy nowhere to go but implode as all those workers find their jobs deemed non-necessary. The best examples are in the Smoke Jaguar and Jade Falcon invasion corridors, where the planets were impoverished within just a few years.
I was referring to populations in the clan homeworlds and there everyone belongs to a caste and has a job. There is no detailed book on clan economy and so i assumed the economy is something like sparta's. Look there is no such thing as money so you can't be poor for the reason that you can't buy anything. Everyone recieves their required amount of food and anything else nessesary to live and thats it. They have their caste and can ask them for something to do if their smoke Jaguars they can have them do the immposible job of near sterilizing the streets of Lootera.
The inner sphere is a different story as people arn't willing to join the clan economy and change their way of life.
Edited by JaguarDragoon (09/19/04 01:26 PM)
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Nightward
09/20/04 02:48 AM
203.214.145.159
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Mmmm.
There are a number of fairly solid arguments on both sides, but as usual, I'm going to side with the Clans.
It would be difficult for the Clans to control a planet...by themselves. However, anyone with a brain (ie, Clan Wolf under the command of ilKhan Ulric Kerensky) would be able to see that if the conquered planets were largely left alone and provided with what they wanted and needed, things would more or less take care of themselves.
The Wolves made a habit of re-installing the old Civilian government to control the planet, with the necessary addition of a veteran from the Warrior caste to make sure that what the Clan Command wanted done was actually being done.
As the old line from the BT books goes, most planets don't care who is in charge. So long as things aren't disrupted for the average citizen, all it means is a new anthem and different flags. The civilians living on border worlds were even used to having their narionality changed every so often.
However, if people do get unruly, the Clans can control the situation quite well. Obviously, there's the threat of orbital bombardment. Or you could just blockade a planet until it agreed to behave.
On top of those, the Clans (thanks to the Jaguars) had a reputation for being bloody-handed murderers who would execute anyone who got in their way. This is a good repuation, up to a point.
Most people won't mess with you. Not out of fear for themselves, but out of fear for their loved ones. Those that are willing to take the risk, however, will be more fanatical (and dangerous) than those that won't.
All it would take would be a few "object lessons" and then the rest would fall into line.
To the Warrior Caste, the captured civilians weren't even really people. Just things. Just numbers.
On to the Ghost Bears, however.
In the Blood of Kerensky series, the Bears were painted as being almost uncontrollably savage. Phelan Kell basically had to force Ulric to bid away Dire Wolf so that the Bears would forgo the use of orbital bombardment; even then, Phelan was afraid the Bears would simply attack civilian targets to force the Rasalhagians to give in.
The fact the Ghost Bears are now the lovable, kick-arse space commies of BT simply reflects continuity errors.
And from FASA, too. What a surprise 
As for the new plotline...well, consensus here is that it's crap. The arguments about plausibility have fallen by the wayside, largely because everyone except the WoB players simply hates whatever has happened to their favourite faction. Even FanPro appears to have twigged to this and has basically stalled the timeline- even gone backwards in time to re-create famed scenarios for the faithful 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
09/20/04 02:56 AM
203.214.145.159
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Bingo. See, it still confuses me how the Bears went from that to lovable space commies.
I think that the plot arc coming up after the FedCom Civil War looked promising. I don't believe the DA "reset" was needed at all.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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