Old school question time...

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Karagin
03/03/05 01:36 PM
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Back in the 4th Succession War, should the FedSuns gone deeper into CapCon space taking more planets with the main goal of Sian as the main goal?

Or is what they took all they could hold without being overextend and risking losing a lot of their gains to a CapCon counterattack?

Let's hear what you guys think on this one.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Greyslayer
03/03/05 01:52 PM
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Capcon military was very compressed after the initial losses, and the resulting retreating forces. FedCom troops would only end up attacking extremely well defended planets, while stretching themselves even further on other fronts.

I would say they should not go any further into capcon space.
Karagin
03/03/05 01:59 PM
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So with that in mind, you don't think they could have taken Sian?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Greyslayer
03/03/05 02:07 PM
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Not without costing them more planets on other fronts.

If for example they did take Sian and the rest of Capcon fell into disarray then FedComs may end up having to take on Marik troops to hold unstable lands rather than the disorganised Capcon militaries.
Thor_Mech
03/03/05 08:45 PM
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Even then the war was fought using mostly Crucis March troops. Hanse Davion couldn't pull more troops from the Draconis March due to the threat from Kurita, and the Cappellan March wasn't exactly friendly. Nevertheless, the FedSun military could have probably TAKEN Sian, but holding it would have been a serious problem with his troops spread thin.
"Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills"
- Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard
Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
Grizzly
03/04/05 06:29 AM
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The combined factors of the interdiction by Comstar and the retreating Capellan Troops massing on the remaining planets, would have made it very difficult to take more territory. As others have said, it could be possible, but they probably would not have been able to hold onto their gains. One thing that confuses me however, is why the writers/developers took on the Combine in the war of 3039. Why not have a St. Ives/FedCom force liberate the remainder of the Capellan Confederation and create a larger St. Ives? Romano was clearly insane by that point, and the Confederation could have probably been won over by Candace. Instead, they leave an operation unfinished and decide to strike at nation that could truly hurt them millitarily. Doesn't make sense to me, but hey this is fiction!
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Spartan
03/04/05 12:52 PM
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It may not make sense but doesn't it have historical precedence? The Nazi's invading Russia for example?

This may be fiction but even reality doesn't have to make sense.
Spartan

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

(I refer you to what Nightward said)
chez
03/05/05 08:14 AM
62.173.81.122

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I think that the FedSuns could easily have gone on to crush the CapCon entirely. The CapCon military was in disarray and the defection of the Northwind Highlanders left a big hole in defences. The fact that Tikonov didn't fight at all (that should have been a pitched battle chewing up valuable time and resources) meant 8 full, undamaged Crucis Lancer RCTs were available for 2nd and 3rd wave strikes when they should have been tied down in "mopping up" operations or even garrison duty.
The supreme ruler was insane as was his daughter.
Two out of three of CapCons senior intelligence officers are Davion plants.
St Ives ceded taking with it more combat power and manufacturing base.
Rather than the CapCon Military being compressed I thinkit was suffering from serious morale problems,supply difficulties and were getting a defeatist mentality.
The strategy that destroyed the Smoke Jaguars (can someone help me out here? Disruption warfare?) was being implemented nearly 40 years before in the Capellan March.
Admittedly the Comstar Interdiction would hinder the campaign but the CapCon forces were in such a bad state that a simple "black box" message saying "Attack planet X" would do the job.
The biggest problem would be holding the gains made. However once the obliteration of the CapCon was a fate accomplis I think the FWL would have jumped in to secure as many CC worlds as possible for themselves and create a new frontier on their terms.
The delicate balancing act that is a two front war was fortunately negated by the stupid pride of warlord Samsonov and the heroics of Wolfs Dragoons thus allowing the Capellan campaign to continue long enough to eliminate the CapCon as a political entity.

Can someone please get back to me on the strategy used in Operation Bulldog as it is driving me mad

Chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Nightward
03/05/05 04:06 PM
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Operation Bulldog was basically a guest starring program in which all the Autor's Favourite units from other Houses wiped out the Jaguars whilst the DCMS was reduced to standing around holding their handbags.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Karagin
03/05/05 05:32 PM
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Not to jump off topic but the whole annilahation of the Jaguars was in my opinion an attempt by Stackpole and others to try and prove they had read several books about warfare written by the likes of Keegan and Hogg and Hart just to name a few, and they tossed in all the cool terms that only come up when you sit through a lecture or big wig briefing where the info put out isn't what is actually getting told to the folks who are running the battles. In other words the fluff text is told to senior leadership and the nuts and bolts text are told to the troops. Know that asemtrical warfare is what is going is meaningless to the grunts on the ground, their worries are about things like what objectives are to be taken and what is the likely make up of the enemy forces etc...the big picture isn't important until AFTER they have gotten their part of the current picture done and over with.

And as was said the same operation had all of the Uber units of the IS off attacking the Jaguars who were so badly written that was a pain reading the whole Twlight of the Clans. But enough on that...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
chez
03/05/05 06:16 PM
195.92.67.66

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That strategy was Entropy-based warfare. I know that may seem an irrelevant post at this time but it's been driving me mad and I NEEDED to find it in the fluff.
I like the story once told in an old book yhe title of which I don't remember. It goes something like:-

War is imminent, and after listening to masses of intelligence,political ramifications, analysis, spin and advice from anyone who gives a damn, the President of the USA says "ATTACK!"
This is passed on to the Joint Chiefs of Staff who come up with a concept.
This is forwarded to unit commanders who extrapolate the concept into a mission involving army,navy,air force and marines.
Senior officers flesh-out the mission into objectives to be taken using required forces in a given time frame.
Junior officers figure out how exactly this is going to be done right down to platoon and even squad level.
Until finally an NCO walks up to a grunt and shouts "ATTACK!"
I am not a military man and I am sure someone who is could probably tell the story better, but you get my drift.
To stay off topic (at grave risk to my personal health) the amount , size and quality of units thrown at the Smoke Jaguars would have annhiallated anyone. Let alone a single clan whose entire Touman was spread out over a gazillion light years and could have been bumped off by half the forces committed to Bulldog although casualties were lighter and the time frame shorter due to the overwhelming forces used.
To get back on topic does anyone think that the FedSuns wouldn't have gone on to total victory over the CapCon?
The clans are the only reason CapCon still exists by 3055.
Why they still exist in 3039 is mystery(put it down to the Fox having a bad year or Stackpole trying to get a few more novels published)Surely the best option all the way through the 3030s was to finish CapCon and install Candace as puppet ruler. deal with the Dragon in 10 years time?
Comments?

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Karagin
03/06/05 06:45 PM
65.129.164.232

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One thing we are forgetting here...the way the Jags were written at this point,

1) Not having troops on Huntress or other worlds in any number, which really makes one wonder WHY none of the Home Clans didn't try to take them on.

2) The whole WW2 Third Reich feel that was pasted on them, wasn't needed, but it was for the story to work out. And it gave everyone any enemy to hate, including the readers.

And finially the idea that no matter what the IS was willing to set aside all of their distrust and allow their best to go off into what was for the IS uncharted space, even with the space map they had, it was still unknow space for them. I really don't expect a nation to do that. Yet we have roughly five nations doing this.

Overall the idea to remove the Clan threat is and was a good one, but the way it was done went against the historical background of the major players of the Inner Sphere, it all seemed a tad to perfect and one sided.

Op Bulldog was an interesting attempt for the writters and such to show that they were trying to keep current with the changes in way the military looks at warfare and trying to do the whole stratgeic scale thing, and while they did a decent of trying they also painted themselves in a coner. But it was good to see a better attempt at showing more believiable invasions, but I think they went to far on how it happens.

On the back on topic question:

Your question is what I am looking for us to talk about here, the issue is something that was left hanging and while there are vaild points against it, there is still possiblity of it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Thor_Mech
03/07/05 01:24 PM
138.67.15.214

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Despite the firepower, I think it's riduculous how EASY the Jags were defeated. This in one of the most blood-thirsty clan among the clans. I see no problem with the Jags fighting to the bitter end, taking as many IS warriors with them as possible. But instead, they completely collapse. A hollow balloon would have offered more resistance to the IS troops. Also, the strike on Huntress... what did it accomplish besides giving fodder for a tale of heroic deaths? I mean, Bulldog had already beaten the hell of the Jags in the IS. So... they took Huntress... then lost Huntress and waited for Bulldog to rescue them... but I wander off topic.

To the Dragoon's part in the 4th War. They tied down the Galedon (I think) Military District. With a stalemate against Steiner on the other front, the Combine could have committed much more in the way of troops and munitions.

On a side note, what do you people think would have happened if Frederick Steiner and the 10th Lyran Guard didn't ruin Theodore's plan to invade the Isle of Skye? (and yes, there were those Loki agents, but you know what I mean >.<) Would it have forced Steiner out of the war?
"Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills"
- Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard
Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
Karagin
03/07/05 02:01 PM
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It might have forced the Lyrans out, but I think it would have things brutal on that front and we would have seen some really brutal battles as at first the Combine hit the Lyrans hard and then gotten from the Lyrans as they counterattacked. I don't see the Combine taking Skye, since the folks there would fight even harder to push out the Combine.

What I think might have happen was the League attacking the Lyrans if it looked like the Combine might be able to really do massive damage to the Lyrans. Or on the other hand they might be bought so to speak by the Lyrans to not attack and turn on the CapCon for what ever reason they Lyrans could come up with, the gambit on reasons could run the full specturm of ideas and such.

But no matter the out come the fighting on the Combine front with the Lyrans should have been more brutal then it was to start with and if the Combine had been able to pull off their coutnerattack well it would have become a bloodfeast of slaugther and destruction.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
03/08/05 01:10 AM
203.206.26.15

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Theodore Kurita was coordinating that war front. Without Anastasius Focht's little tying-down manoevre, he probably would have swept through the Isle of Skye (which Lestrade had deliberately stripped of troops to force a confrontation, and precipitate a power struggle for the throne of the Archon, IIRC).

It would have been brutal and messy. Odds are that at least half the Isle of Skye would have fallen.

But then, such an attack would have caused a showdown between the DCMS and the Gray Death legion and Kell Hounds.

Given the fact that both units are so heavily favoured by the BT fiction authors, odds are that the two Mercenary Regiments would sluaghter the DCMS troops, then launch a counter-ofensive deep into DC space, occupying Luthien at the very least.

Personally, I'm happy with the detente that actually occurred.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
NileIngrams
03/12/05 05:00 PM
144.138.217.36

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The War of 3039 is an interesting thing. Theodore as Gunjin No Kanrei (Minister of Defence) was able to:

1/ "Modernize" the Combine, shaking off the stringent Samurai Culture that was endemic throughout the realm, allowing the creation of more units from "Unproductive" Sources.

2/ Negotiate the creation of the "Free Rasalhague Republic" which reduced his border along the Steiner side of the Federated Commonwealth, giving him a friendly buffer state that would protect his realm from one axis of attack.

3/ And with the Brownie points won from Comstar for the "FFR" obtain Dumbed-Down Star League Machines from ComStar.

4/ Allow the Federated Commonwealth units to outrun their supply lines by presenting a weak front, holding back a massive counter-attack that surprized many.

If Takahashi was still in full control of the Combine's Military, things would have stayed mostly static in the years before the war of 3039, and the DCMS would have been swept aside by the FC Juggernaut. Theodore proved himself as a superb House Leader, worthy of the Dragon.
NileIngrams NI! - The Killer of Threads!
In the time before the return of the heirs of Kerensky,
when the Successor Lords had tired of bathing worlds in Nuclear Madness,
there was an age of High Adventure!
Karagin
12/03/05 11:49 PM
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Boucning around again..
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
12/04/05 07:02 AM
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Quote:

Back in the 4th Succession War, should the FedSuns gone deeper into CapCon space taking more planets with the main goal of Sian as the main goal?

Or is what they took all they could hold without being overextend and risking losing a lot of their gains to a CapCon counterattack?

Let's hear what you guys think on this one.




No, not in the 4th Succession War. The FS was getting pretty strained from the war. It needed a breather.

However, Hanse Davion was ready to rumble again in c3035 (per FM:CC). He ended up being talked out of it by Candace Liao (who threatened to take the SIC to war against the FS) and his new wife and mother-in-law. Then some distractions came up - separatists in Skye and such - and Hanse's next window of opportunity was in 3039 against the Combine.

IMO, the War-That-Wasn't-of-3035 was pretty lame, though not quite as bad as the War of 3039.

So the stumbling block to this alternate history is the opinions of some required supporters...what would make Candace, Melissa, and Katrina back a renewed invasion of the CapCon?

Overwhelming abuses by Romano would probably do it. Some reign of terror that was well-publicisized (sp) abroad and horrified Candace, Melissa, and Katrina. I know Romano Liao had it in her to do that and after a losing war, there's a perfect excuse to launch the war. Hey, maybe Romano was assassinated and the remains of the CapCon started fighting for the Chancellory - a civil war in an already broken nation. Either way, you get a situation that would lead to Candace & Co. supporting a humanitarian intervention.

The goal of the intervention? Put mild-mannered Candace on the Celestial Throne. It wouldn't be conquest of the CC per se (though the FS might claim some more planets as "buffer zones" or something), but it would leave the CC as a super-sized St. Ives-type puppet state.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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