Uziel
Sergeant
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 124
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The Holy Grail?
#124323 - 01/23/06 10:33 AM (87.112.211.191)
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Seems to be that a lot of people here moan about getting gang banged...ok...fair enough, its annoying,but it IS a legitimate tactic in some circumstances. All sorts of people have come up with ideas to STOP it, but really it only needs to be limited to where its necessary. Its quite simple.
Empire A is a level 6, Empire B is a level 6, and Empire C is a level 5.
Emp A DoWs B and gets normal attack costs. Empire A finds it hard to kill off Empire B, and gets his friend Empire C to help. Empire C gets a +10% attack cost modifier for zones (could be higher,I don't know what would balance/unbalance it) as he is double DoWing Empire C along with Empire A.
Suppose Empire C is a level 6 as well. Because it stands a larger threat to B, it gets a higher attack mod, say +20%. I know this will need tweaking at high levels, but its an idea none the less. Defence Contract Mercs wouldn't get these penalties, for the obvious reason that they're being paid to do the killing, so why charge them more?
The basic idea of this is to make GBing slightly more costly, as it is kinda necessary in some VERY rare circumstances. You could also make perhaps a 3rd DoWing empire pay even more, it's open to tweaking.
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AusiNinja
Sergeant
Reged: 04/11/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Uziel]
#124326 - 01/23/06 11:11 AM (203.122.117.222)
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I agree, it might be a 'legitimate tactic', but it still sucks. Even more so when you have scenarios like
Empire A attacks Empire B. Empire A is lvl6 as is B. Empire B defends successfully, Empire C, D, and lvl 10 E join in to help out and finish the job.
Winning is one thing, but winning at all costs to the detriment of your fellow player isn't fun, and is poor sportsmanship. Support the idea of game mechanics like this to make costs proportional to the unbalancing nature of gbing.
Made a post about a similar scaled cost for fwar mercs based on number of mercs and level.
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SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: AusiNinja]
#124330 - 01/23/06 01:29 PM (80.219.3.41)
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in fwars, limiting gangbanging is easy since there are no DOWs that can be fake
go figure how to limit it in this situation
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Wayward_Son
Major
Reged: 07/05/02
Posts: 1287
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Uziel]
#124339 - 01/23/06 10:52 PM (24.117.200.100)
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So then you just have your empires all DOW each other all the time or have your buddies do it to you and then your enemies can never hit or have to spend more money to do so. All answers seem easy until abuse is applied to them All of our best ideas are thwarted or complicated by abuse. Welcome to our miserable world of trying to find systems that work.
WS
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Burai_Yutaka
Private
Reged: 06/22/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Luthien Palace
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#124343 - 01/24/06 12:39 AM (71.255.143.38)
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I agree there will always be abuse WW, but there are things that can be done to lesson it. First, not giving surrender to another player unless they declare war on you. If player (A) takes one of your lands during a war and never fires a shot and then you surrender to player (B), paying income to both player A and B is just silly.
Mercs would get more contracts if this was not allowed. No player should be allowed to just drop in on you during a faction war unless they were hired as a merc. Faction war restriction should exist just like Surrender restriction. 
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Grandfather of House Kurita
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SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#124348 - 01/24/06 03:08 AM (80.219.3.41)
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Quote:
So then you just have your empires all DOW each other all the time or have your buddies do it to you and then your enemies can never hit or have to spend more money to do so. All answers seem easy until abuse is applied to them All of our best ideas are thwarted or complicated by abuse. Welcome to our miserable world of trying to find systems that work.
WS
DOWs are already limited in a Fwar, all that needs to be done is not allowing the own factionmemebers to dow themselves
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: SubZero]
#124349 - 01/24/06 03:10 AM (84.24.165.226)
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SZ, you mean inside a FWar, or in general? Otherwise, if it were in general, allied factions would be more than willing to DoW on you. (And I see loads of unallied lvl 0-1's DoWing to get the increase in attack costs.)
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Rather to blow up, then.
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SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Toontje]
#124352 - 01/24/06 04:38 AM (80.219.3.41)
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in fwar of course
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Uziel
Sergeant
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 124
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#124374 - 01/24/06 09:34 AM (87.113.208.139)
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Well...I know it's still not abuse-proof (nothing on nev is) but what about the DoWs have to have been within...50ND? for this to take effect (or scale it to empire level, large empires probably fight for longer than 5 IRL days, I really don't know) and they have to have made an attack against a city (or a defended zone) for it to take effect. Empires would need to keep DoWing and keep making hits...although admittedly people could just feed their empires some JEP-MG or G3X...
I know! Perhaps set it so the first person has to take...I dunno...2.5% off that empire's peak before the attack cost multis kick in. And if 3 empires DoW at once before taking any percentages off, the first emp gets it at normal cost when the 2.5 threshold is reached, then the second DoWer gets penalties, then 3rd gets more. Oh wait...but people could launch simultaneous strikes against multiple cities...bugger me Wayward, you were right, everything IS abusable :S
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Cecil
Lieutenant
Reged: 07/09/02
Posts: 467
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Re: The Holy Grail?
[Re: Uziel]
#124392 - 01/24/06 01:41 PM (65.219.8.30)
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What about the following as a radical new implementation of the LW system:
You issue a DoW that has an ending time (maximum time length to be determined).
Only two empires can be at a state of war in this case. State of war ends when the DoW period ends, or when one of the empires surrenders.
To offset abuse, there will be a flat fee (as there is now) plus an additional "DoW Activity Fee" to be paid out by the declarer of the DoW at the end of the DoW period, or by the winner when the DoW ends in one empire surrendering. This DoW Activity Fee will be based on how much pop and/or bv you take/destroy during the course of the DoW.
The more destruction you do, the cheaper the DoW Activity Fee is. If you do nothing, or just take a few pot shots here and there and the DoW period ends, then you pay heavily (so heavily it should discourage being in an idle DoW).
How surrenders will be handled needs to be thought out a bit more, but here's my logic:
If you fight a person set at 50% surrender, then you shouldn't have to pay out a lot (if anything) since you receive no surrender income, and you took/destroyed a bunch of stuff.
However, if you fight a person set a 10% surrender, then by virtue of the system described above, you will have to pay a lot because you didn't take/destroy much; but on the other hand, you will be receiving quite a bit of surrender income.
In the end, depending on how the costs structure works out, it may be no more profitable to fight a 10% surrender empire than a 50% surrender empire. But at least you get rid of people surrendering allies or engaging in a peaceful DoW. How? By using this type of DoW system, you will be forced to either take a lot of pop or kill a lot of bv to not incur "DoW Activity Fees" to surrender an ally; if the ally is set at 10%, both parties will pay (attacker gets hit with DoW Activity Fees, and the Defender pays out surrender income); if both do nothing and the DoW period ends, then the declarer pays maximum DoW Activity Fees.
The main downside I see to this is for people who legitimately fight and surrender 10% surrender empires. These guys get the worse end of the stick because they'll have to pay relatively high DoW Activity Fees. But then again, they *are* getting surrender income.
What do you all think? What about you Wayward?
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