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Isotope
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Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 38
New Vehic Idea STR-03
      #133441 - 07/04/06 01:34 PM (67.167.222.31)

I think we need a new Striker variant. I request the STR-03 to be added for the purpose of attacking flat zones that are full of buildings. It would remove the LRM 10 and replace with 2 SRM6's making it a highly efficient vehic critter, while being fast enough to evade IDF fire for at least a couple of fire phases. Removal of the LRM 10 and Ton of ammo leaves 6 tons of space which could easily hold 2 srm-6's and an additional ton of ammo. PEG's are too expensive and crit too easily for this purpose they are also a bit shy on total SRM 6 ammo. I think they should be roughly around 300-400RP which would put them a little lower than some of the striker variants, but they would be suicide vehs anyways.

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MatthewAce
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Isotope]
      #133456 - 07/04/06 09:20 PM (202.156.6.52)

IIRC there's also a SRM Striker variant in BT with 2 srm4 and 1 srm6.

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Toontje
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Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: MatthewAce]
      #133459 - 07/05/06 12:01 AM (84.24.165.226)

Why this version?

If it was a version with mk II missiles, ok.. But plain srm's only suck.

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GreenBeret
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Toontje]
      #133460 - 07/05/06 12:43 AM (24.88.102.132)

I've actually been looking for a vehicle with similar specs. Like a plainsman but not quite as expensive or a packrat with a turret.

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MatthewAce
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: GreenBeret]
      #133461 - 07/05/06 02:10 AM (202.156.6.52)

mkII SRMs takes up more weight i believe.

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CaBhaal
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: MatthewAce]
      #133462 - 07/05/06 06:14 AM (24.32.87.123)

Aye they do. SRM-2 mk II weighs 1 ton more. The 4 and 6 Mk II weigh 2 tons more.

The power of SRM's comes not from their damage potential, but from their crit potential. On the other hand, new vehicles using mk II technology would be nice to have.

CaB


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MatthewAce
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: CaBhaal]
      #133466 - 07/05/06 08:05 AM (202.156.6.52)

Strikers and Hunters with LRM mkII. Yummy.

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Protagoras
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: MatthewAce]
      #133479 - 07/05/06 02:03 PM (15.235.153.107)

Yes Hunters with LRM MkII... Strikers suck ass being wheeled they have more terrain restrictions and cost double maint. per tonne. A Hunter with a MK II would be very effective. Not quite as much crit potential but it would be very dual purpose with LR weaponry

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Isotope
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Protagoras]
      #133483 - 07/05/06 03:00 PM (67.167.222.31)

Protagoras, I think you are missing the point. Hunters are slow, their max to be hit is +2 which multiplied for IDF is +4. A striker can be +6 and at long range, can sometimes be a pain for IDF to hit. The design has a specfiic purpose which is to close quickly and sacrifice itself in the attempt to kill a larger vehic. I've also always disliked hunters outside of ABR as the turret lack is a serious flaw. In the close confines of relatively flat zones with gobs of buildings, this would be a serious equalizer to at least reduce the number of enemy units in a zone. It could also be quite effective in swarms against snipers.

I'm not opposed to using Mkii weapons in this design if the admins can find a way to make a good balance.


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Kit_fox
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Isotope]
      #133502 - 07/05/06 10:31 PM (4.240.120.253)

We don't need any more light missile tanks right now. We have plenty of em.

What we need are medium tanks with missiles. Both LRM's and SRM's. Right now there is no transition LRM and SRM vehicles for empires which are growing. You basically go from using Hunters and Strikers to CCT's and TX's. That is one heck of a cost jump.

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_____

The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.

When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.


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Toontje
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Kit_fox]
      #133503 - 07/06/06 01:10 AM (131.155.212.167)

light srm carrier? bout 40 tons if I remember right..

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Rather to blow up, then.


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cbtgod
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Toontje]
      #133504 - 07/06/06 01:29 AM (70.126.173.120)

we need more med and asslt tanks with the new changes and dealing with soi i find myself dumping my light stuff for heavy hitters to make the best of it. i aslo think we need more mechs or at least some more of the varints. i think the admins should let us submit ideas or varints we would like?

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MatthewAce
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: cbtgod]
      #133513 - 07/06/06 04:53 AM (202.156.6.52)

I remember there's an SRM Goblin variant.

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Urbies are good.


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Protagoras
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Isotope]
      #133528 - 07/06/06 09:35 AM (15.235.153.107)

Yeah I am aware strikers are faster. But I would rather have twice as many hunters at 4/6 than strikers at 5/8 (hope I got the speeds right I am almost certain). The 5/8 speed will only help when your in light terrain and your controlling the unit. if your in light terrain and your driving, go for one of the hover tanks.. they truly make good sniper killers.

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GreenBeret
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Protagoras]
      #133529 - 07/06/06 09:41 AM (24.88.102.132)

Dunno why you people are talking about using them in defense....

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Formerly:
Šark Šemons, Phantasmal, Commonality Ordnance and Weaponry


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Isotope
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: GreenBeret]
      #133540 - 07/06/06 11:51 AM (67.167.222.31)

Greenberet hit the nail on the head. I state clearly in my first post what purpose these units have. They are to crit enemy units. The point is to have a disposable close range critter, and that is exactly what we don't have in the game. We do have some hover tanks, but they move crit much easier than wheeled vehics. Protagoras: If they make this design lets do a little battle, your hunters vs. my strikers. I'm sure i will lose a company of strikers, but you will have lost a batt of Hunters.

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Protagoras
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Isotope]
      #133550 - 07/06/06 03:10 PM (15.235.153.107)

*chuckles* well the ratio should be 2:1 as my point is maint Strikers are double the maint. So you take a lance and I would take two lances. We battle on a variety of terrain types and see who wins. I would guess even on flat terrain with little rough where the striker has a good advantage with 5/8 speed the hunters would aquit themselves well with the additional range of LRM's. And in difficult terrain where the speed advantage is negated mostly and the advantage of tracks instead of wheels makes a HUGE difference, I would guess the Hunters would make short work of the Strikers.

I know what you were suggesting I just think its not as effective as you think. And I still stand by the analysis about hovertanks. If you want a company of fast movers to engage enemy vehicles, your looking at terrain without alot of woods. While hovers do get move critted easier, they are SOOO fast they will get hit alot less often than your 5/8 strikers. Once you get to the realm of human controlled units such as your strikers or my hovers its a different ballgame.

I would suggest if you want a force to do what you seem to want the Striker-03 to do you would be MUCH better served by either the SRM Harrasser.. like 2xSRM6 and 10/15 at 25 tonnes.. its only 43% more expensive in maint. over the 35tonne wheeled striker. Or the plainsman with 2xSRM6 1xsrm2 at double the maint. and 9/14 movement. the JED with ML and 2xsrm2 would be good too I think. There are really a slew of hovertanks that would excell in the role you suggest. Damn I might look at getting a company of those.


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Isotope
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Protagoras]
      #133553 - 07/06/06 04:34 PM (67.167.222.31)

Hovers aren't disposable, they are expensive and get move critted very easily. Who cares about maintenance? We are talking about a unit that has a short shelf life. Most of the time when invading flat zones, pegs and plainsmen get move critted after 2-3 fire phases. I'd rather lose something I *don't* care about. These units wouldn't be stored for long periods of time. They are kamikaze units designed to take out zones with 100 Hunters and 50 IDF towers. 3 batts and everything in the zone should be mangled. Heck, you might even get central and kill the IDF towers if there is a path of buildings blocking LOS.

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Toontje
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Isotope]
      #133563 - 07/06/06 10:26 PM (84.24.165.226)

Why not take hunters? They can absorb more damage, henceforth they are better able to ammo drain.

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TheDoctor
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Reged: 01/17/03
Posts: 60
Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Toontje]
      #133566 - 07/06/06 11:42 PM (68.181.223.12)

He's not talking about ammo draining; he's talking about blasting in with SRM vehicles, killing the IDF towers in the middle, and then being able to take on the rest of the junk in the zone.

On that note...they are right; for a job like that you need piloted vees, and if you are gonna pilot them, you might as well use hovers like the harrasser or, if you can afford it, the plainsman.

or heck, you can even use the vanilla striker; SRM-6 and LRM-10 aren't 'ideal' but they are at least functional at all ranges, which can make them way more useful if you are doing something other than attacking a totally flat city...

-Doc


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Isotope
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: TheDoctor]
      #133570 - 07/07/06 01:17 AM (67.167.222.31)

Doc, I appreciate your input as always. But the problem with Hovers is that they move crit on 4's on the vehic random damage table. I've tried to use them in the past, and they are far too flimsy. best hovers have 2 srm6's and i think a 3rd SRM would be super useful. Without a TA you are talking 10M per. With most of the striker designs you can get them for 4M per. If you have a 5 gunner in a STR-03 you are gonna hit on 8's at least one of the times most phases (against the slow crap most people leave in zones to die). You have enough armor to take a few hits without getting 0/0'ed. I pilot all kinds of vehs, i prefer strikers and packrats over hunters and such for mobilitiy purposes. Most people have poorly defended zones. Most people believe Zhukovs and Hunters are an effective defense for all zones. I'm happy they do that. It allows me to rep up snipers nicely. I just think a CHEAP SRM unit would be a huge bonus. With the standard striker, the LRM10 is shaky at best for crit potential. Half the time you only hit with 5 damage. You need to get to an optimal range of 6, which makes it harder for the SRM to hit, and you also need to have LOS. In a 1ker nothing says carnage like 3 SRM6's at range 1. Especially in the side arc of a hunter, cause we all know how well AI points hunters in the proper direction. I think the easiest units in the game to kill are hunters, but that might be a tie with zhukovs. Neither of which i use for anything outside of ABR. When I'm lucky enough to be able to pilot a higher level empire, i ask for packrats or strikers or OSR-2M's. Problem with swarms of hunters against hovers tho, is that if there are 100 in a zone, at least one or two will randomly be at range 7 with LOS. Shortly thereafter an expensive unit is 0/0 after a move crit. I'd rather use junk than something that costs too much.

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Toontje
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: TheDoctor]
      #133572 - 07/07/06 04:21 AM (131.155.85.181)

Vanilla has lrm, so if immobilised it can still contribute a bit; SRM ammo is more than it's life expectancy.

In this case I'd go with hoovers, they can cross rough easilly wheras wheels cannot..

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Protagoras
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Isotope]
      #133585 - 07/07/06 07:49 AM (15.235.153.107)

Quote:

Hovers aren't disposable, they are expensive and get move critted very easily. Who cares about maintenance? We are talking about a unit that has a short shelf life. Most of the time when invading flat zones, pegs and plainsmen get move critted after 2-3 fire phases. I'd rather lose something I *don't* care about. These units wouldn't be stored for long periods of time. They are kamikaze units designed to take out zones with 100 Hunters and 50 IDF towers. 3 batts and everything in the zone should be mangled. Heck, you might even get central and kill the IDF towers if there is a path of buildings blocking LOS.




Yes they get move critted, but often its an air skirt for -1 move which still makes them still alot faster than strikers. And who cares about maint. I do... unless you think you can reasonably just keep then stored in the armoury and break them out and commission them in time? You can do that with ABR troops, but with this unit I would think you need them when you find the type of zone and cannot wait for them to get through the obligatory training time when commissioning. Maint. is the overriding factor to deciding your empires force composition. Maint. for the money it costs and SP for OMT consideration. You want the most bang per Maint. dollar (or most bang per Support Point).

As for the economics of it. Hrrrrmmm I see you point, and its one alot of folks have, and I never look at it that way. Let me explain. I don't care too much about the initial cost of a tank. Once I have decent defenses, the issue to me is efficacy per dollar spent in maintenance. To keep a healthy economy, one needs to have the best bang per buck NOT in initial cost but in maint. per day. There is also the factor of having the best tanks so you get the most out of your low skill gunners. But looking at it purely from an economic standpoint I want the best tanks I can get for the maint. I hate Snipers for example, I use them because you must, but 70tonne wheeled pisses me off I am currently replacing Snipers with Beh-IDF as they Beh is less maint. Will still have to keep some snipers though for the extra range. But I digress.. the point is your offensive forces (that are not just ABR formations) that you plan on piloting I don't care how much they initially cost as much as I care what they are costing me per day. So that is why I see these Hovertanks as much more effective. It not like I would keep alot of them. A company or so for offensive ops with perhaps another company in storage to replace losses. As an offensive component they are only effective in certain situations, flat-like zones with little trees, then they would be effective.

Now are you suggesting these STR-03's would be ABR troops you use in Battalions? You seem to suggest that, or are you saying you would bring them in on AI using battalion orders? I really have been thinking you intended on using them as quick strike forces you controlled in order to try and reach and destroy high value vehicles/towers through IDF. In effect I thought you were saying to try and get through to hit the IDF towers or past the line to the Snipers?


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Tobias_Moon
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Re: New Vehic Idea STR-03 [Re: Protagoras]
      #133639 - 07/08/06 01:38 PM (66.255.216.36)

There are several medium tanks that are available as standard vehics in the 3025 battletech universe..it would be lovely to see many of them in nev! ( right off the top of my head there are goblin tanks that are srm and lrm variants, same actually for scorpions..and more than I can think of here at work..I'll double check my Heavy Metal Vehic program when I get home unless someone beats me to it.)

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"Something moves within the night that is not good and is not right" (book of counted sorrows, Dean Koontz)
{Tobias Moon is AKA Michael Scirocco for some of you older timers}


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