Atlas II...isn't really an Atlas, is it?

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Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 09:28 AM
205.202.120.139

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If you have TRO: 3075, you will know that there is a new Atlas in it, obviously dubbed the Atlas II (2). It looks nice and all, but I really have to say:

Is this really the power of the Star League?

Sure, the original Atlas had/has it's faults, but it was still pretty dangerous. LRM 20's on anything make for some nice ranged damage, and the short range was absolute death with an AC/20, 2x ML, and an SRM 6 to top it all off. Closing with the Atlas was death unless you were an Atlas yourself. But of course the original Atlas lacked range severely, especially medium range, but it still was quite dangerous.

After living though the terrible 3050 refits (an XL engine and SHS? The hell?) I wondered if the new Atlas II would revive this beleaguered Beast. What I got was more or less a pretender. Some of my reasons Include:

1. LB 10-X Autocannons are NOT main weapons on Assaults.
- An LB 10, while an excellent gun, can't do enough damage to justify itself without backup hole punchers. Here, on the Atlas II, it is the most damaging weapon. Seriously. That's a little screwed up.

2. Superfluous Weapons are quite bad, last time I saw...
- You Already have the LB 10. Why do you need an SRM 6? It makes no darn sense.

3. Too little short-range firepower
- The only "real" short range weapons are the MPL's and that SRM, both of which are completely secondary. Again, the SRM 6 has no real purpose with that LB 10 riding...shotgun (sorry for the pun )

4. Too little direct damage
- The Atlas II has a "death-by-Papercuts" thing going for it, with dual ER LL's, 2x MPL's, an LRM 20, an SRM 6, and that LB 10X. With it's highest level of directed damage being 10 points, the Atlas II needs someone with a really heavy weapon (HGR, anyone?) to actually make it effective.

Just from this overall explanation the Atlas II is more akin to a support 'mech than the true Assault 'mech that it was supposed to be. To me, I cannot make this stand. I need a REAL Atlas II.
Lafeel
11/07/08 11:19 AM
157.157.106.160

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Now you mention it, you have a point there. Still doesn't mean that it is a useless design by any means, if you ask me..
Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 11:28 AM
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Yeah, but it just doesn't "feel" like an Atlas.
Lafeel
11/07/08 11:32 AM
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Quote:

Yeah, but it just doesn't "feel" like an Atlas.



True enough, but it wouldn't be the first time a refit wouldn't feel like the original. Hell, the Akuma feels more like a Atlas than the 3050 refit (mind you there is a reason why that one didn't have dhs, and that is that the Combine were late in developing them)
Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 12:26 PM
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Huh; well, that would explain the Hatamoto Chi.
Lafeel
11/07/08 12:36 PM
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Quote:

Huh; well, that would explain the Hatamoto Chi.



That, and the fact that the 27-T dates back to the early 40's.
Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 12:56 PM
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Quote:


That, and the fact that the 27-T dates back to the early 40's.




Doesn't explain the Endo steel
Lafeel
11/07/08 01:00 PM
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Quote:

Quote:


That, and the fact that the 27-T dates back to the early 40's.




Doesn't explain the Endo steel



Actually, it does. The Hatamoto-Chi was the very first mech to use it since the technology to make it was rediscovered (by the Combine, no less, check the tech manual)
Rotwang
11/11/08 04:31 PM
78.23.13.90

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The Atlas II was mentioned in the Star League sourcebook as fluff turning Kerensky into a huge, muscular superhero, which always lead me to believe that it was a kind of pulp story and that the writer made up new designs to make it sound more exciting.

The Atlas II is a mistake by people who take the fluff at face value.
Venom
12/19/08 01:30 PM
192.44.136.113

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"1. LB 10-X Autocannons are NOT main weapons on Assaults.
- An LB 10, while an excellent gun, can't do enough damage to justify itself without backup hole punchers. Here, on the Atlas II, it is the most damaging weapon. Seriously. That's a little screwed up."

The LB 10-X AC was the most advanced AC of the time when the Atlas II was introduced, and we can't have anything but the best for Kerensky's pet-project now can we?

"2. Superfluous Weapons are quite bad, last time I saw...
- You Already have the LB 10. Why do you need an SRM 6? It makes no darn sense."

The AS7-D had a SRM-6 and the AS7-D was perfection, you can't mess with perfection.

"3. Too little short-range firepower
- The only "real" short range weapons are the MPL's and that SRM, both of which are completely secondary. Again, the SRM 6 has no real purpose with that LB 10 riding...shotgun (sorry for the pun )"

The AC and the ERLLs can be used in close as well.

"4. Too little direct damage
- The Atlas II has a "death-by-Papercuts" thing going for it, with dual ER LL's, 2x MPL's, an LRM 20, an SRM 6, and that LB 10X. With it's highest level of directed damage being 10 points, the Atlas II needs someone with a really heavy weapon (HGR, anyone?) to actually make it effective."

The AS7-D had a potential 42 damage in close. The Atlas II has a potential 40(2 MPLs, AC, SRM, and ERLL). However, the Atlas II has the potential to do 28 to 36 damage at range using the LRMs and stagering the use of its ERLLs to keep cool as opposed to the 20 potential damage of the AS7-D. You can grind away while closing which is a capacity that the origional did not have. You also have alot more staying power.

As for needing a teammate, just think of what an Atlas II and a King Crab could do working together. The KC blasting holes for the Atlas to exploit and the Atlas covering the KCs retreat when it expends its ammo.

All in all, the Atlas II is growing on me the more I get into playing pre Succesion war games. The Atlas II and SLDF Royal units are a bear against House armies. Do I miss the satisfaction of destroying entire sections with a single hit of my AC/20? Yes. Do I miss the resounding *click* I get when it runs out of ammo and there are still alot of baddies about? Hell no. The II addresses the lack of staying power that energy weapons provide. In fact the Atlas that I played Lvl 1 with for years tosses the LRMs and arm-mounted lasers and sports twin PPCs(got into a nasty firefight and lost my LRM-20 to a Marauder, but I got the better of him and salvaged his PPCs; neccesity being the mother of invention and all that)
Lafeel
12/19/08 07:02 PM
157.157.75.183

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Well said. It is different but that does not make it a bad mech (in fact, in the hands of a thinking pilot it is potentially extremely deadly).

And have only one thing to say to the KC-Atlas2 combo..Ouchies! They are a perfect match.
Zandel_Corrin
12/21/08 02:53 PM
123.2.140.247

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I like to mod my KCs...

don't see the point of the LRM so drop that for another LL and add extra ammo.... don't have the book in front of me right now but the mod does work with enough room for a good amount of HS to keep it cool.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/08 01:18 AM
173.116.112.136

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I was never a fan of the Atlas. As I see it it is just a step up from the Charger. I have always seen the Atlas as being heavy to be heavy. It could be redesigned to be lighter and more effective. Drop the LRM 20 for a LRM 15 and drop the AC20 for 4 med lasers. That right there will save 14 tons not including the weight savings on the power plant and IS.

The thing is a lot of things in BT are heavy just to be heavy. I have redesigned mechs that lose 5 to 10 tons ,even more with tanks, with out changing there combat ability much at all. If its to be heavy I want real firepower, not just dead weight. I took a tank from 60 tons down to 20 tons and its firepower was not lessened in the least. Granted, I replaced the ICE power plant with a fusion power plant to do it. But even with replacing the ICE PP with a fusion PP the new tank was even cheaper than the original tank by a great deal.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Dester
01/09/09 12:48 PM
216.57.96.1

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Atlas is scary, atlas II is blah. And before you say its not scary... why do you stay so far away from the front arc when one comes on the field?

Donkey, sure 4 med lasers is the equal damage as an AC-20, but no one fears 4 med laser hits near as much as an AC-20, especially lighter mechs. Also there is the physical damage to consider of a heavier mech. 10 pt punches and 20 pt kicks hurt... sadily I had a beloved javilin pilot die when an atlas toso twised to punch out the cockpit when the javilin was right behind it.

Dester
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/14/09 05:48 PM
67.180.139.229

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Quote:

Atlas is scary, atlas II is blah. And before you say its not scary... why do you stay so far away from the front arc when one comes on the field?

Donkey, sure 4 med lasers is the equal damage as an AC-20, but no one fears 4 med laser hits near as much as an AC-20, especially lighter mechs. Also there is the physical damage to consider of a heavier mech. 10 pt punches and 20 pt kicks hurt... sadily I had a beloved javilin pilot die when an atlas toso twised to punch out the cockpit when the javilin was right behind it.

Dester




What was he doing with in range of a physical attack?

As for the ac20 just make him use up his 5 shots and all that ac20 is is 14 tons of dead weight. Or just stay 10 hexes away and pot shot it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Lafeel
01/14/09 06:21 PM
157.157.28.195

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Which is precisely why a ac-10 can be a better choice, because of those extra five (or eight, in the case of the lbx model) hexes of range.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/14/09 09:05 PM
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So you will have a AC10 and a AC20 on your mech? That is some serious weight!!!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Lafeel
01/15/09 12:40 AM
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Quote:

So you will have a AC10 and a AC20 on your mech? That is some serious weight!!!



Not at all, as I'd much rather use a AC10 in place of the AC20. Sure I'm losing some hitting power, but the extra range makes up for it on a mech this slow.
Zandel_Corrin
01/15/09 03:00 PM
123.2.140.247

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True and if it's an UAC then you don't really loose the damage and if it's an LBX AC then you get vesatility and extra range.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 02:18 AM
67.180.139.229

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Then why not just go with a LL? AC10 weighs 12 tons with 1 ton of ammo, and 3 heat sinks, that's 16 tons. the LL weighs 5 the HS weight 8, for a total of 13 tons. And with the LL you can shoot for ever. Yes, you lose 2 points of damage. Or you can go with the PPC that is 7 tons with 10 HS for a total weight of 17 tons and you get better range for the same damage.

I still think that the only ammo weapons that are any good is the GR with its 15 damage at a very good range, Or the LGR with for its grate range.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Lafeel
01/16/09 05:35 AM
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I disagree, autocannon are much better, particularly in level one play when you only have single heat sinks to dissipate the heat.

But weapon selection is a matter of personal tastes I guess *absolutely detests the lgr*

Also, by counting in the heat sinks you are deliberately skewing the results. How many all laser boats have you seen that can get away with just using the normal ten heat sinks?
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 09:38 AM
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Why do you think I am adding the weight of the heat sinks with my comparisons. If I did not everyone would complain that I was not making a fair comparison. Almost any mech can have a PPC and three med lasers with out caring about to much heat build up with the built in heat sinks. That is unless you are a fool and fired the PPC with the med lasers and ran.

Compare the minimum weight a mech can be that carries a PPC and three med lasers and a mech that carries two AC5s and a LB20 AC. Granted the mech that has the ACs can fire all of the ACs at once and run with out worrying about any heat build up.

The only energy weapon that I detest the IS ERPPC. That 15 heat is not worth the extra range.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
08/28/09 03:18 AM
72.178.75.99

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You have some valid points...suggest rebuilding it and posting your ideas on the board.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
08/28/09 06:23 PM
66.191.9.99

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Don't underestimate the LB-10X (which is still an AC-10. I wonder why people forget that) Large Lasers and LRMs for punching holes. No, you won't get in any 20-point shots, but all it takes is a little grouping from the 'Mech's larger weapons to create a hole it can exploit with SRMs and Cluster Rounds.

Were the old Atlas truly to fight against an equal, even its 20-point shots can't generally breach anything but the head, so you'll rely on doubling or even tripling up before the "crit-seeking" capability of its small rack of SRMs comes into play.

With so many hard-hitting weapon systems, the Atlas II is going to open its enemy up much faster (especially considering its vastly superior medium-range performance,) and then it has an additional crit-seeker it can bring into the game. I'll take the Atlas II against the basic Atlas in any likely engagement scenario.

Now it's true that the Atlas II isn't an Atlas...thus the II. The idea is to improve over the Atlas by filling in its performance gaps, the most noticeable of which was a lack of midrange firepower.

LB10-Xs are main weapons on assaults. They have performance comparable to a standard PPC, and in the case of the Atlas II, it's backed up by both an LRM-20 and a pair of ER Large Lasers. The Atlas II is actually remarkably well-armed. Sure, it's no Devastator, but it's not bad.

I might have preferred a Gauss Rifle, but the LB-10X is a strong performer and not a bad choice to build a 'Mech around.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
08/28/09 09:14 PM
72.178.75.99

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Good point on the LB-10X being one of the main weapons on assaults, I recall that lots of folks seemed to be in love with the LB-10X and either ERPPC and/or ER Lg Lasers. Or the ever so famous LB-10X and the Gauss Rifle combo we have all seen from some of the newer inductees to the game when they discover they can build their own mechs.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Lafeel
08/29/09 01:17 PM
157.157.126.46

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About the only thing I don't really like with the Atlas 2 is the weapon placement, but if you consider it a new mech (which it effectively is) as opposed to a upgrade of the original, then I guess I can live with it.
KamikazeJohnson
09/03/09 09:34 PM
142.161.158.84

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This Atlas II sounds like a decent 'Mech, but IMO it violates the entire spirit of the original Atlas, which was a blazing-giant-guns-of-death monster.

The one feature that should not be lost with ANY Atlas rework is the fact that wherever it walks on the battlefield, all except the most heavily armoured opponents find they are more urgently needed in a different corner of the field. No other weapon has the same psychological effect as the AC/20, and that effect can have a considerable impact on the battle. Therefore, IMO, if it doesn't have an AC/20 variant, it's not really an Atlas, even if it is equally or even more effective.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Bob_Richter
09/04/09 06:16 PM
66.191.9.99

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Well, there's a reason it has a II, right?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
KamikazeJohnson
09/06/09 05:36 PM
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Quote:

Well, there's a reason it has a II, right?




If you took a Rifleman, threw away the ridiculous AC/LL pairs, and instead loaded it up with a PPC, a LRM15 with 1 ton ammo, a pair of SRM6s with ammo, and 2 heat sinks, could you then just add a II to the end of it's name and call yourself justified?
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
09/06/09 05:53 PM
72.178.75.99

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I see your point...it has to be close to the original to warrant the same name, improving on something to be newer and not just a variant...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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