Venom
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/17/06
Posts: 274
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Munchkins can be fun...
#156539 - 09/26/09 03:52 PM (207.191.218.35)
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Back in high school we played run-whatcha'-brung and we had one player who did take things to the extrem. His first 'mech that dominated for a time was a Clan 100-tonner with 4 GRs and a targeting computer. Of course the 'mech was illegal since it split one GR between two locations, but I don't think anyone ever called him on that. His pilot was a 0/0 (of course) and had EI and was a GR weapon specialist. He would target the CT and perform a complex action and gut you in a turn.
Everybody tried using other clan 100 ton 3/5 'mechs to no avail. However I did determine a way to defeat him with the advent of the FM technology. I built a 100 ton 4/6(8)/0 with 2 AC/20s, a supercharger, stealth armor and AP ammo. I ended up closing behind cover and biding my time until I could get initialive and make a full-speed straight run at him to drive up the target numbers. I came in on his left, so he could only bring part of his arsenal to bear. At that point the dice gods took over. I hit with both shots, one to his LT, the other in his left arm. The shot to the LA did not do crits, but the LT took one. He took 2 damage from the blown GR and a third from his EI. The explosion then caused the second GR(the one that was illegaly installed that split crits) to blow sympatheticaly, giving him his 5th pilot hit and knocking him out. I had taken 3 gauss slugs to the RT(since I had an IS XL), so he penetrated, but did no damage. After that I closed and put a couple of AC bursts into his head and ended his reign.
A couple of years later he came up with a 'mech startlingly similar to the Allsleep in the designs section. THe pilot was of course a 0/0 and a MPL weapon specialist. By then I had picked up a used copy of the Tactical Handbook. I took a custom Commando with just 2 SRM-6 loaded with TC warheads. All I recall about it is that it was 25 tons, max stealth armor and FAST. Again I used cover to close, took a high-speed run and lit him up with 12 TC warheads. 8 hit and 5 did pilot damage. He again was knocked out. My 'mech was in tatters, missing both legs, an arm, a torso and most all of its armor. But I was able to prop up on one arm and send one more salvo into his 'mech and fry him in his cockpit.
Moral of the story:A munchkin can't ruin the game for you. If you use your head and figure out how to defeat him, it will ruin the game for him. For a real player it is not about winning, but to a munch it is everything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Venom]
#156540 - 09/26/09 04:00 PM (72.178.75.99)
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Too true, if a munchkin can't win by using the loopholes they will move on to something else.
I need to see if I still have the 120 ton Spider that one guy used in a game...it is a long story and when he finally defeated, we got the mech sheet as salvage...let's just say that a couple of the other players were not to happy about the mech and some issues with it.
Let me see if I still have it, and I will post about it.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 361
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156542 - 09/27/09 06:29 AM (24.127.68.31)
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Were the two Locations that the GR was Split to Adjacent? if so then it may not have been Illegal.
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156544 - 09/27/09 08:54 AM (72.178.75.99)
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Chris, do you have a page in the rule book that allows it?
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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OPER_DANG
Newbie
Reged: 09/16/09
Posts: 15
Loc: N. Carolina, N. America, Terra
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156547 - 09/28/09 08:28 AM (70.61.114.174)
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Is munch short for, well, buttmunch?
Is this a thread to share amusing/lessons-learned stories?
Back in college days, my friend that was my usual GM had assigned Mechs by dice roll before and one time I got a Scorpion. No one ever used a LAM, it was an unspoken rule in his games I guess. He also must have allowed Level 3 type rules/and his own interpretations, because he showed me how it could move laterally without using an extra MP and take cover behind Level 1 elevations.
So one day my roommate and I were going to play our hall-neighbors in a 1-shot. One of my picks was actually a Scorpion, part of my "strategy" because I had found it being underestimated, lateral moves and able to take cover behind level 1s useful (and necessary to manage its heat by hiding out).
Soon after we started, Suprise!...one of the guy's mechs moved some crazy distance over all kinds of terrain and my roommate said "Oh, looks like there's a LAM"...and I said "what's a LAM?" LOL. At somepoint my roommate was able to check his sheet and he sprung a custom SLT 55-ton LAM on us. However, he threw a fit that there were "no such rules" for quads lateral moves and taking cover behind level 1s when I tried and they wouldn't allow it.
The LAM got behind my Scorpion pretty easy and I was out. My RM's Highlander eventually hit the LAM while it was being a Transformer, but then there was an arguement over if it was stuck between modes, the munch's contention; it had to be a hit on int. structure after armor, with a successful crit. on hip, leg, etc. while transforming to get stuck. So we relented and eventually it was hurt and so My RM DFAed it, which gave their custom Atlas some free shots, so we ultimately lost... but it WAS very satisfying in the moment.
My friend later told me that you can counter LAMs with a turret, tanks sometimes, Quads with turrets are best, but then you have to be agreed on which rules.
Lessons learned - If not your usuall group don't assume; agree on use of customs, LAMs, Technology, level of rules, etc BEFORE playing. Its best to learn the rules, but have a copy with you to back you up.
Edited by OPER_DANG (09/28/09 08:32 AM)
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: OPER_DANG]
#156548 - 09/28/09 11:21 AM (72.178.75.99)
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No this more about players who have to tweak their mechs to point that not much is going to win against it or they exploite all of the loopholes in the rules. Though lessons can be learned from playing against Munchkins...or powergamers...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Venom]
#156549 - 09/28/09 01:16 PM (68.113.1.138)
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I'm always amused by Munchkins who are worse at it than me.
Your munchkin, for example. The Gauss Rifle is one of the least efficient weapons the Clans have at their disposal, especially when combined with a Targeting Computer.
I like your counters, and you're absolutely correct that it can be fun to out-munch or out-fight (or both!) a munchkin.
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Tripod
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Denton, TX
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Bob_Richter]
#156553 - 09/28/09 06:58 PM (192.91.75.29)
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Fight Fire with Fire!
Fight Munch with Munch!!!!!!
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TBA
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OPER_DANG
Newbie
Reged: 09/16/09
Posts: 15
Loc: N. Carolina, N. America, Terra
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156569 - 10/05/09 03:15 PM (70.61.114.174)
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Venom was correct, it is illegal (at least it was for quite a while) to split the critical slots for any weapon between more than one section, the only exception was for artillery pieces such as the Arrow IV MS or Thumper because they are so "big" they have more crits than one location can handle, and then those sections have to be adjacent and it only works with a side torso and arm.
I know this because I read it and reworked a Thunderbolt into a Thumperbolt (Munchie perhaps, never got to try  ). I guess most you know this but I can try to add Compendium edition and page numbers later if it will help anyone. 
Edited by OPER_DANG (10/05/09 03:25 PM)
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: OPER_DANG]
#156571 - 10/05/09 03:45 PM (72.178.75.99)
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They have always been able to split up the AC20 between arms and torsos...
Now you want munchy arty mech...Long Tom on a mech...yes I know it can't be done, but the old MechWorks program allowed it...you end up with a Long Tom on Two legs more or less but hey it was scary enough to get one group to stop playing like it was hack and slash with mechs and do the team work thing...:D
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 361
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156618 - 10/13/09 07:38 PM (24.127.68.31)
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What is the Threshold in number of crits for being able to be split?
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156619 - 10/13/09 07:54 PM (72.178.75.99)
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The number is dependant on the weapon, only certain ones can be split, like Arty other then the Long Tom, and the AC20 is the only one I have seen this done with where you want to put it in an arm but there is not enough room so the extra crits fall into the torso. The info can be found in Master Rules (all versions) as well as with in the new rule books. Here I will post a mech showing how the weapons are moved around via spreading the crits out and you should be able to figure out what is going on.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156620 - 10/13/09 07:58 PM (72.178.75.99)
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Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout
Custom* Weapons
Type/Model: Heavy Breaker
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 90 tons
Chassis: Standard
Power Plant: 360 Hermes XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
1 Autocannon/20
1 Thumper Artillery
2 Light PPCs*
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Heavy Breaker
Mass: 90 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 138 pts Standard 0 9.00
Engine: 360 XL Fusion 12 16.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 264 pts Standard 0 16.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 29 41
Center Torso (Rear): 14
L/R Side Torso: 19 27/27
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 9/9
L/R Arm: 15 28/28
L/R Leg: 19 36/36
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/20 RA 7 15 13 17.00
(Ammo Locations: 3 RT)
1 Thumper Artillery LA 6 20 16 16.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LT)
1 Light PPC* RT 5 2 3.00
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
1 Light PPC* CT 5 2 3.00
1 Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 29 72 90.00
Crits & Tons Left: 6 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 22,453,060 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,626 (old BV = 1,220)
Cost per BV2: 13,808.77
Weapon Value: 2,673 / 2,673 (Ratio = 1.64 / 1.64)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 33; MRDmg = 21; LRDmg = 16
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 7/3
Damage PB/M/L: 5/4/2, Overheat: 1
Class: MA; Point Value: 16
Specials: artT
Noting I left the arms intact to show that weapons like the Thumper and AC20 can be split between sections with a mech. Arms and torsos only, and it can only cover two sections not three, unless one of the new core rule books (we are up to what 5 or 6 now?) has changed this.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 361
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156622 - 10/13/09 09:08 PM (24.127.68.31)
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Yeah, Two ADJACENT locations
CT & RT
CT & LT
LT & LA
RT & RA
If a weapon is split into the Arm, the Arm is reduced to the same fireing arcs as the Torso and can no longer use the Arm Fireing Arcs.
But again, i do not remember having ever seen where a list was published of which systems could or could not be split...
humm... TM does limit this to AC/20, Ultra AC/20, LB 20-X AC and the heavy Gauss on p.57
But I believe that this is a recent change... were any of the earlier this detailed?
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 361
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156623 - 10/13/09 09:16 PM (24.127.68.31)
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Fan Pro Revised BMR PDF has it on p.130/189 or P.120 if printed
Quote:
The critical slots for AC/20-type weapons, as well as the Heavy Gauss rifle, and artillery weapons (Arrow IV, Thumper and Sniper) can be split between two adjacent locations.
FASA Revised BMR has the exact same wording on p.120
I'll Check the wording of the BMR & Compendium.... (I refuse to do any thing with the Hardbound Compendium beyond throwing it accross the room-definately wasted my money on that one) and the BattleTech Manual: The Rules of Warfare later.
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156626 - 10/14/09 03:44 AM (72.178.75.99)
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Beyond the other rule books, i.e. the Compendium and the ones prior to that, I know of nothing else that covers this. You pointed out the older books say in your follow up reply so you have all of the official rules in which the covering of this is handled.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156627 - 10/14/09 05:44 AM (147.160.136.10)
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Quote:
humm... TM does limit this to AC/20, Ultra AC/20, LB 20-X AC and the heavy Gauss on p.57
But I believe that this is a recent change... were any of the earlier this detailed?
BMR-Revised page 120 says the same thing as Tech Manual (noting artillery is TacOps):
"The critical slots for AC/20-type weapons, as well as the
Heavy Gauss rifle, and artillery weapons (Arrow IV, Thumper and
Sniper) can be split between two adjacent locations."
I don't have an unrevised (pre-HGR) copy of the BMR or the Compendium handy to see if they say the same thing, but my memory is that splitting items was also restricted to the BFGs.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Prince_of_Darkness
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 508
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Cray]
#156628 - 10/14/09 05:49 AM (205.202.120.216)
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Quote:
I don't have an unrevised (pre-HGR) copy of the BMR or the Compendium handy to see if they say the same thing, but my memory is that splitting items was also restricted to the BFGs.
Yes- I still remember asking something like that back on Solaris 7, and that is pretty much the answer I got.
I do wish that we had a fluff reason, however.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Cray]
#156629 - 10/14/09 01:27 PM (72.178.75.99)
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The Arty weapons seemed to be able to be split up around around the same time as the AC20 weapons family. I need to check the older books to be sure though.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 361
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156631 - 10/14/09 07:26 PM (24.127.68.31)
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Quote:
Beyond the other rule books, i.e. the Compendium and the ones prior to that, I know of nothing else that covers this. You pointed out the older books say in your follow up reply so you have all of the official rules in which the covering of this is handled.
Umm, No, I have already Covered the NEWER Books... I still have the BMR, the BTC, and the BM:TROW to check.... Trying to figure out when/if the Splitting weapons rules has always been only for AC/20 & Artillery (& HGR) or if it ever left it open for someone to interpet it as open to GR... Frelll, ill even check the waste of money....
ok, no need to check the waste of money or the unrevised BMR...
Nothing about Splitting in BattleTech Manual, The Rules of Warfare.
and BattleTech Compendium has splitting limited to Artilllery and AC/20 type weapons...
so... yup, was always illegal.. humm, wonder how i missed that?
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156632 - 10/15/09 03:25 AM (72.178.75.99)
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Yes, splitting up the Gauss rifle was illegal, splitting up the other two weapon families (AC20s and Arty) has been allowed for some time now. I thought that you saw this since I didn't put a normal Gauss on the concept mech?.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 361
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156638 - 10/17/09 06:59 AM (24.127.68.31)
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How about "for as long as splitting was allowed at all"...
Well, humm, to me, Gaussi were always Replacements for an AC/20 so i guess it must have registered to me as an "AC/20 type weapon"... wonder if it worked out that way for the other guy?
but now i guess we can be sure that it is definately the HGR that qualifies since they went and broadened it. Dujure has been settled, and no related materiel exists for determination of whither or not "intent" was broader...
TABLED?
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Christopher_Perkins]
#156639 - 10/17/09 07:17 AM (72.178.75.99)
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ok
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Mekslayer
Newbie
Reged: 12/10/08
Posts: 8
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Karagin]
#156642 - 10/20/09 07:11 AM (71.141.100.195)
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LOL ...so what if the Muchiest mech is a canon Mech?
If you take an LRM loaded Clan Bane Varient and make all the ammo DFM's... see what happens...
-Mek
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Mekslayer]
#156643 - 10/20/09 04:38 PM (72.178.75.99)
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Dead Fire Missiles can be fun...they can also backfire...not sure how that works out in the munchkins favor...could you tell us some more about this interesting use of mech and weapons?
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Prince_of_Darkness
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 508
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Re: Munchkins can be fun...
[Re: Mekslayer]
#156650 - 10/21/09 07:04 AM (205.202.120.216)
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Quote:
If you take an LRM loaded Clan Bane Varient and make all the ammo DFM's... see what happens...
Oh god, anything moving more than 7/11 (god forbid a Preta Dominus) would never get hit.
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