ATN082268
03/16/16 10:12 AM
69.128.58.222
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Code: AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: Scalpel
Tech: Clan / 3075
Vessel Type: Aerospace Fighter
Rules: Level 2, Custom design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 100 tons
Power Plant: 300 XL Fusion
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Ferro-aluminum
Armament:
4 Large Pulse Laser
8 Medium Pulse Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Scalpel
Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant: 300 XL Fusion 9.50
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity: 10 .00
Total Heat Sinks: 22 Double 12.00
Fuel: 10.00
Cockpit & Attitude Thrusters: 3.00
Armor Type: Ferro-aluminum (336 total armor pts) 17.50
Standard Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Nose: 100
Left/Right Wings: 83/83
Aft: 70
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Large Pulse Laser Nose 10 10 10 -- 40 24.00
3 Medium Pulse Laser RW 7 7 -- -- 12 6.00
3 Medium Pulse Laser LW 7 7 -- -- 12 6.00
2 Medium Pulse Laser Aft 7 7 -- -- 8 4.00
1 Targeting Computer 8.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body .00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 72 100.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 16,155,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,385
Cost per BV: 4,772.53
Weapon Value: 4,508 (Ratio = 1.33)
Damage Factors: SRV = 59; MRV = 57; LRV = 14; ERV = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 5, Armor/Structure: 8 / 0
Damage PB/M/L: 7/7/4, Overheat: 3
Class: FA; Point Value: 34
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CarcerKango
03/16/16 10:56 AM
64.251.51.247
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Scalpel? More like a sledgehammer IMO. 
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Justin_Kase
03/16/16 04:59 PM
76.106.7.15
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Well, it is a CLAN scalpel
I'd love to see someone do artwork on this!
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Karagin
03/17/16 10:43 AM
61.40.222.5
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Okay so we have a 100 ton fighter that is all pulse and targcomp, I guess best of the best.
Decent speed, and the perfect weapons for a trainee or new pilot who has yet to see combat to use to learn. Fair armor, not seeing it last long against any of your warships ATN, but it would do wonders against any canon warship in print.
So tell us, which Clan is using this fighter? I would go with Adders but it has a Hellion feel, so who is using it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/17/16 03:56 PM
70.122.160.150
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For some reason the program that you use to post this is only showing what one weapon does in each category in damage and not what all of them does. Oh well.
My Clan long range scouting fighter (The Long Cold)
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/167681/an/0/page/1#167681
Mine has the advantage at extreme range. I can dish out 50 points of damage where you cant do anything. If you survive long enough to close in you would be at the advantage with your large pulse lasers backed up with the targeting computers. You would do the best to stay at long range where I can't even things up a bit with us using our medium pulse lasers.
A one on one battle I would be at the advantage do to my extreme range weapons and heavier armor. All I would need are two hits to your nose and your dead. You would need to hit my nose three times to take me out. The more fighters that are in the battle the more the advantage would go to you. I would take out a good number of your fighters before we close in but once we close in your more accurate fire would take its toll on my fighters.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
03/17/16 09:34 PM
68.103.19.152
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I prefer the Scalpel. Even poor pilots could be extremely effective with it and hits with good crew at extreme range and its rather limited 21-25 section is going to be rather uncommon.
Although, the foward-firing medium pulse lasers don't much to the design. The 22 DHS already covers the quad LL, the 6 MPLs provide an average of about 2 extra damage at medium and short range at the cost of the larges. I can make a smaller-scale design at 80 tons with the same amount of fuel, 17 DHS, 3 LPLs and a rear MPL, same speed with a SFE, not quite as effective as either design 1 vs 1 but simpler to service and almost 4x cheaper to boot.
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ATN082268
03/18/16 11:36 AM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
Retry writes:
I prefer the Scalpel. Even poor pilots could be extremely effective with it and hits with good crew at extreme range and its rather limited 21-25 section is going to be rather uncommon.
Although, the foward-firing medium pulse lasers don't much to the design. The 22 DHS already covers the quad LL, the 6 MPLs provide an average of about 2 extra damage at medium and short range at the cost of the larges. I can make a smaller-scale design at 80 tons with the same amount of fuel, 17 DHS, 3 LPLs and a rear MPL, same speed with a SFE, not quite as effective as either design 1 vs 1 but simpler to service and almost 4x cheaper to boot.
The Medium Pulse Lasers provide the benefit of being able to do more damage once the fight has closed to the short and medium ranges. At long range, the Scalpel can do 40 points of damage. At Short and Medium range, the design can do 62 points of damage, assuming the target is in the row of hexes directly in front of it or 51 if not.
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ATN082268
03/18/16 01:49 PM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey writes:
For some reason the program that you use to post this is only showing what one weapon does in each category in damage and not what all of them does. Oh well.
My Clan long range scouting fighter (The Long Cold)
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/167681/an/0/page/1#167681
Mine has the advantage at extreme range. I can dish out 50 points of damage where you cant do anything. If you survive long enough to close in you would be at the advantage with your large pulse lasers backed up with the targeting computers. You would do the best to stay at long range where I can't even things up a bit with us using our medium pulse lasers.
A one on one battle I would be at the advantage do to my extreme range weapons and heavier armor. All I would need are two hits to your nose and your dead. You would need to hit my nose three times to take me out. The more fighters that are in the battle the more the advantage would go to you. I would take out a good number of your fighters before we close in but once we close in your more accurate fire would take its toll on my fighters.
Compared to the Scalpel, I like the Long Cold's higher armor values and AMS capability. For about everything else, I like the Scalpel better. YMMV. I'm not sure how much of an advantage extreme range is for an Aerospace Fighter. O.K., so you land in the 21-25 hex zone for 1 turn and get a shot(s) off for, what, around a 10 or so.
It's been a while since I've used Aerospace Fighters but do you all similar type weapons fire as a single bay, even when mounted in different locations? Also, I thought Aerospace Fighters had internal structure, so if the Scalpel got hit, for example, twice in the Nose, for 50 points of standard damage each, that it would still have 10 points of internal structure left and still be functional.
Maybe someone like Cray can straighten me out 
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ghostrider
03/18/16 07:30 PM
66.74.61.223
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The fighters do have internal structure.
And like tanks, mechs and such, a single point of damage could potentially destroy the unit. Not likely, but possible.
I know in normal combat, it is unlikely to use all the weapons at one time, but with the heat of thrust and getting that shot, isn't this at a large risk of over heating?
It become a real threat if you are strafing targets, as the random movement could cause a crash to happen.
Just a thought on that.
I would think moving a large pulse into each wing and moving a medium pulse from each wing to the nose might give you a little more flexibility when dog fighting. Get some range to the sides sort of thing.
Is this supposed to be a omni fighter?
Otherwise, the case equipment, even though it is free weight and space is out of place. Costs would be the main factor to having it.
I do see this having an advantage over other fighters, as the base roll of 6 for fighters is harder to overcome then the land base 4. That would definitely help out, and the targeting comp is that much better.
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Karagin
03/19/16 02:48 AM
61.40.222.5
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The cost of his fighter is the draw, back, it's not anything game changing nor is it note worthy beyond that it has the pulse targ combo of death, who doesn't want the -3 that lowers the odds into your favor...clearly the ship is about power gaming, then again if it is going up against the other deathship ATN has posted it would be well versed for those in a battle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akirapryde2006
03/19/16 09:44 PM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
The cost of his fighter is the draw, back, it's not anything game changing nor is it note worthy beyond that it has the pulse targ combo of death, who doesn't want the -3 that lowers the odds into your favor...clearly the ship is about power gaming, then again if it is going up against the other deathship ATN has posted it would be well versed for those in a battle.
I do agree the craft is about power gaming.
However if you look at the strategic value of this fighter, even compared to the Long Cold (which mind you, I am a big range nut also), the fighter has its value.
Step aside from the gaming aspect and look at this in a realistic universe. If you have a power like the Lyran Commonwealth who have the resources to spend on a fighter like this, then the fighter's true value become apparent.
I could see a Combat Wing of these fighters being flown by lesser trained pilots, led by a handful of more experienced pilots in better suited craft. The advantages of this craft could easily offset lack of higher experience.
By looking at purely the numbers, a Lance of Scalpel's flown by regulars could negate the advantages of experience from a Lance of veteran pilots. Or even the equally experienced in long ranged craft like the Long Cold.
Akira
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Karagin
03/19/16 10:23 PM
61.40.222.5
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Indeed it could, but at the same time, the millions spent on these are going to be questioned by the bean counters when there are better fighters out there, then again your scenario is realistic and no one is going to put their weak pilot in this machine, they will put their version of Rick Hunter into this and clean house which means you have nothing more then a munchkin power gaming tool.
Which canon fighters do you see as equal to this one?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/20/16 03:09 AM
66.74.61.223
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Unless your pilots have good gunnery, range isn't the top thing in space. It helps, but frankly, if you can't at the longer ranges, what good is the ac 2 or something like that?
And it was pointed out in another thread, range in space isn't always kept at long range, It seems the range drops quickly, and I don't think fighters fly backwards anything like they do forwards. So a range advantage of 3, even 6 isn't a big one, unless you have the weapons in rear mounts. You will close after the first shot. If I recall right, a normal gunner is at 10's to hit in long range. With this fighter, it hits 7's at his long range.
Forgotten most of the stats on your fighter, but even with a targeting comp, this one still has a better chance to hit with normal gunnery.
I hate so say it, but the pulse/comp units are over powered in space. Only the innersphere pulse seems to be at a disadvantage because of the severely limited range.
And time for the cheap shot. This alone would be a good reason for the innersphere to build clan tech. Range in space, as an erml on a clan figher will outrange the large pulse laser on an innnerspere craft all day long.
And yes, the over powering does do the same thing on land, though terrain came overcome alot of that.
It is a powerful fighter, and very useable. I don't see it as a novice pilots ride, but the elite bloodnamed unit. Kills are more impressive then just doing damage and letting the enemy get away.
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Karagin
03/20/16 06:21 AM
61.40.222.5
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Maybe, but seeing how must players would use this to strafe the battlefield or go after Dropship inbound in the atmosphere, I can see it being a bit over the top.
The range issues isn't what I was talking about, the to hit chances that the pulse/targ gives is more of my point, these things strafing a ship means more hits and more damage done overall, sure you would want your elites in there, but how many do you have? a few dozen at most, maybe 20 total, that means the other pilots are good to average and the rest are those right out of the academy or flight school. So it's up to you do want all of your best in one group or a mix of levels?
Has anyone compared this to canon fighters of the Clans?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/20/16 11:53 AM
66.74.61.223
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I honestly don't think many people use canon designs, unless it is doing some sort of scenario. I think most battles anymore are custom designs verses custom designs, unless almost all players are using standard units.
My game experience with fighters is limited to a couple of strafes, so I am not entirely sure how a large scale space battle plays out, but this is one case where I would figure having one fighter type in the air would be advantageous. The best fighter should win the most, even if you lose a few fighters, clearing the enemy is the key.
The most effective unit should be the one used. So would it matter if you mix your best pilots in other groups or have them all in one group, if you dominate the battlefield without trying hard?
This is a muchy style design, as it does the pulse/comp with all it's weapons, though it isn't that bad, as all weapons are not large pulse. This is one if a few units I can see becoming the only fighter in a unit.
Proper formations would basically destroy most other forces, even when outnumbered.
The good range with the better to hits is what I am basing this one.
I know battles are not all mathimatical fests, as a single point of damage has changed several games I have been in, it is the better bet when you hit more often then the enemy.
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Akirapryde2006
03/20/16 11:47 PM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Indeed it could, but at the same time, the millions spent on these are going to be questioned by the bean counters when there are better fighters out there, then again your scenario is realistic and no one is going to put their weak pilot in this machine, they will put their version of Rick Hunter into this and clean house which means you have nothing more then a munchkin power gaming tool.
Which canon fighters do you see as equal to this one?
Karagin, I don't think we are looking at this from the same angles.
Elite pilots who specialize in this form of combat might choose a fighter like this, but not very likely. Generally, elite pilots would build their own costume fighters based off of their specialized forms of combat that would play in to their strengths. Now mind you, there was a pilot in our game that did fly a craft similar to this one. I can't remember the actual stats but it was a assault designed purely as a close in dog fighters.
Look I agree with you, this fighter is a munchkin craft designed to maximize fire power within the rules of the game.
But if you look at the fighter as a weapon system built by a Inner Sphere power, its deployment would make sense.
As for comparing this fighter to a canon fighter, I sorry, I can't. Fighters aren't really my thing. Warships is where my specialty is.
You asked which Clan would field this kind of fighter. My answer would be none. Allow me to explain my answer.
The reason why is because of the clan's philosophy regarding the least amount of resources for the job. Also the Clans focus on the pilot not the machine, would see something like this (if even developed) thrust in to the second line units. Truthfully I couldn't see a single clan use this kind of fighter. It just go against their philosophies too much.
Now the Inner Sphere powers (especially the Lyran Commonwealth who has a history of throwing money on equipment like this) would have no problems using a fighter like this.
With that thought, there in lies the problem. Because no clans would use such a fighter it would never be built as designed. Which means a Inner Sphere version would have to be redesigned. That means that the fighter wont have the same level of abilities as the one in the OP.
I hope that this helps you understand my position on this craft.
Akira
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Karagin
03/20/16 11:50 PM
61.40.222.5
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My group tends to mix some customs in with canon mechs when we play or we use all canon. If we are running custom units we always tend to play them against canon mechs or fighters etc...to have a benchmark to go off of, since to us the canon mechs are that benchmark.
Realistically yes having your best in this machine would be the ideal thing as I said, but really you don't have enough Rick Hunter style pilots to go around, so you are never going to have the best of the best in these machines. Tactics are important and the skill of the pilot does come into some what of a balance but at the same time a good pilot can be undone by a simple mistake.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/21/16 01:20 AM
66.74.61.223
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I would think snow ravens would use this fighter.
And in the later years, the concept of winning at all costs started coming out in the clans, so something like this would become a sought after fighter. Kills is what counts, not being able to hit an ac 2 at extreme ranges. In the beginning, standing off at range killing something was more honorable, but now the balance has shifted.
And using the least amount of resources, means those very resources making it back. Otherwise wasting to many resources because you underbid does start to show your inability to judge the balance.
It also counters the idea to submit when you can not win a battle. There is where the most waste of resources come into effect. Clans use to be more likely to retreat then throw everything away in a battle they could not win.
They would use the most efficient fighters available to them, and to ignore something like this would be a waste.
I said it before. If they were relying on skills more then equipment, they would be fighting in a locust against a superior machine, not the other way around. But they don't. They use range to allow them the shots to destroy an enemy, while the enemy can't hit them back. Clans were more likely to use this tactic, while the alot of the innersphere was more likely to use manueverablity to get around issues. But in space, there isn't really much terrain you can swing to your favor.
The others can complain all they want, but when you stomp on them, you are showing your forces are superior, even if you use the equipment to your advantage. I find it over blown, but it does work.
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Karagin
03/21/16 07:55 AM
61.40.222.5
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So ATN machine returns the Clans back to power gaming, not sure that is a good thing for the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/21/16 12:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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I am not saying it is the way to go with the game, as it just promotes the continued min/max ideas in the game.
I do agree there should be a limit to what you can do.
I believe that is why they leave some design flaws in canon units, though some are beyond stupid. And I agree. This line of thought is NOT good for the game.
But that is for a different thread.
For a fighter design, it is good for those that like the win without to many worries. As much as we would like it to be different, some of the rules make exploits like the pulse/comp combo dangerously devastating to balance. And they will be used.
As the design stands, is not the issue.
The breaking of the spirit of the rules is the issue with this. Like it or not, if I were a commander in a real army, I would jump on something like this as it means my forces are more likely to come out ahead, even with being outnumbered.
Kind of like using rockets in an aircraft or missiles. Since missiles track, they are the more likely things to us. You miss alot more with rockets. So they became obsolete.
Same thing with the mini guns for anti missile defense. Now you don't have all those people on the 50s firing at incoming objects.
After a while, power gaming tends to end up with people not wanting to play anymore. Or leave out the person that tends to run just the gods of the universe units while they play with the old 3025 locust for the fun of it. Tactics is part of the game. Some things remove that and make it a simple math issue. Ratios, averages, and some luck. The idea of a machine gun mech exploits this. Point blank, 18 plus mgs, something is bound to hit, and do the instant critical. Almost guaranteed a crit anytime you fire. Would it be useful in the open field? Not really. Good for anti infantry, but the mech works in normal combat. And that is what most people consider.
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ATN082268
03/21/16 01:37 PM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
Akirapryde2006 writes:
You asked which Clan would field this kind of fighter. My answer would be none. Allow me to explain my answer.
The reason why is because of the clan's philosophy regarding the least amount of resources for the job. Also the Clans focus on the pilot not the machine, would see something like this (if even developed) thrust in to the second line units. Truthfully I couldn't see a single clan use this kind of fighter. It just go against their philosophies too much.
I agree the focus of the Clans is on the individual warrior and not the machine which is most evident in their bidding process. That being said, the Clans have had substantial technological advances and a host of new designs, so they aren't completely focused on the pilot, otherwise, they would be fighting solely with Star League tech in Star League designs. I also agree the Clans try to use the least amount of resources for a job but that usually translates into the number of forces in a bid and not the equivalent in C-Bills.
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ATN082268
03/21/16 01:53 PM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I am not saying it is the way to go with the game, as it just promotes the continued min/max ideas in the game.
I do agree there should be a limit to what you can do.
I believe that is why they leave some design flaws in canon units, though some are beyond stupid. And I agree. This line of thought is NOT good for the game.
If people are having fun playing the game, who cares how they play it? If, for example, you have fun playing a 3025 Locust, there should be no reason to disparage other people who play with a 3050 Daishi and vice-versa. If the issue is that there are other people who don't play like you (regarding tech, tactics, etc.) and you don't like *that*, then you'll just have to get over it. If you don't like playing with canon units like the Hydaspes, which is in the same ballpark as the custom Scalpel, then just don't use them
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Akalabeth
03/21/16 06:07 PM
64.251.81.66
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The Visigoth B has 4 Large Pulse Lasers on a 60 ton frame.
Another Sabutai Variant has 4 Heavy Large Lasers.
Clan Aerospace fighters with obscene weaponry are nothing new. In the atmosphere even a single point of damage can bring an aerofighter down with a +2 for atmospheric operations and -1 for fighters, every piloting roll is at a +1 and that's even before the per 20 points.
An aerofighter doing a ground attack is even more vulnerable to other fighters.
So, point is, whatever. The design I find is a bit boring because it's so single-minded but if in-game it could conceivably crash in its first ground attack. People are going to enjoy what they want to enjoy.
Edited by Akalabeth (03/21/16 06:30 PM)
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ghostrider
03/21/16 06:40 PM
66.74.61.223
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Since you seem to have found a group that is fond of the power gaming concept of the game, then that's fine.
For some, this is something that ruins the fun for them. That happens as well.
The group you play with is what determines what is ok, and was seems extreme.
The fact that this design would supplement, and even remove others from production seems to have some thinking it is a bad design. It isn't.
Now as for the one point of damage, I had to look up the space rules, and they are not as harsh as the ground rules of combat, but it is possible to destroy a fighter with an engine hit will full armor. It is not as likely as the mech critical, which the vehicle critical is far worse.
As for being single minded, that does not mean the fighter is ineffective. Like it or not, the effectiveness of this unit shouldn't be in question.
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Karagin
03/21/16 07:09 PM
61.40.222.5
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Power gaming works for those who have to win all the time no matter what, which for some that is how they play. Others not so much.
Units like the Scalpel use loop holes in the rules to gain an advantage, sure it makes sense in that an military would always want to have an advantage but here in this game, we are not talking about things being real.
The effectiveness of the fighter is not the issue, the issue is it will slaughter canon designs and thus overpowers things, while it has it's draw backs as you said in space the range issue is not something to worry about, again the Scalpel is great to face off ATN's other death machines, but is over the top against canon ships and fighters, and given that as I said most players would put their best pilots in these things adds even more issues to the balance part.
Having the pulse weapons isn't the issue, the issues is combining them with the targeting computer.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akirapryde2006
03/22/16 11:40 AM
71.100.132.249
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Look, Everyone has voiced their opinion about this fighter/design.
The conversation about Power Gaming Designs is a worthy conversation. I will open a new thread for this so that we won�t hijack this thread.
Please follow the link below and continue this conversation.
Power Gaming Designs in the Mechwarrior Universe
Karagin & Ghost, I would really like to hear from both of you in regard to this subject in a more neutral conversation.
Akira
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Frabby
03/23/16 05:35 AM
87.164.130.249
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Power gaming works for those who have to win all the time no matter what, which for some that is how they play. Others not so much.
Units like the Scalpel use loop holes in the rules to gain an advantage, sure it makes sense in that an military would always want to have an advantage but here in this game, we are not talking about things being real.
The effectiveness of the fighter is not the issue, the issue is it will slaughter canon designs and thus overpowers things, while it has it's draw backs as you said in space the range issue is not something to worry about, again the Scalpel is great to face off ATN's other death machines, but is over the top against canon ships and fighters, and given that as I said most players would put their best pilots in these things adds even more issues to the balance part.
Having the pulse weapons isn't the issue, the issues is combining them with the targeting computer.
Power gaming is a totally viable way of gaming. There is nothing wrong with it, if the gaming group agrees.
Conversely, a group that isn't into power gaming will probably not think of using such designs.
In a game where optimized player designs are permitted, I imagine the opposing forces are bound to field similarly powerful designs. Alternatively, perhaps the goal is to see just how much better a homebrew design is compared to the canonical desings. Again, nothing is wrong with that.
I'm tempted to rant about Wolf's Dragoons and how they are given all the superior tech. The Dragoons have their fans, too, and that's okay.
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ghostrider
03/23/16 12:06 PM
66.74.61.223
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The Dragoons were given a superior force, and even moreso, warships. It seemed convenient to just having some they could grab when warships started to appear in the inner sphere.
Not that clan philosophy would allow them to mothball them outside the innersphere, and not send them back to the clan homeworlds.
But this needs another thread.
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Karagin
03/23/16 08:32 PM
61.40.222.5
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Dragoons didn't get cool tech till the Fourth War, official, they had different mechs that were far above the IS norm, but no higher tech that was official till the Fourth War and beyond.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/24/16 12:30 AM
66.74.61.223
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They used the Imp as well as the Falcon, and a few other mechs. The imp alone was a nasty mech, with only the annihilator moving as slow of an assault unit. The urbanmech is an oddity in the extreme, so is ignored for this purpose.
They fact they were clan trained does make it interesting that they didn't resort to that training during fights or have issue with just 3 other people in their unit.
And they had the tech, they just kept it in deep space as to avoid raising suspicion about their history.
And Cranston Snord was a clan raised warrior as well. But that is something people tend to overlook as well. They had the ability to deal with clan tech, which does make you have to ask why they didn't have anything around like that, even with trying to avoid suspicion.
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