Are warships really that much of a wimp?

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TigerShark
10/18/17 01:30 PM
12.130.166.32

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Same thing goes for warships: "We don't want this to be TOO powerful, so here's 50,000 tons of 'cargo space.' "
GiovanniBlasini
10/25/17 10:52 PM
64.171.121.200

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Quote:
I know after the stunt that I pulled I said that I would not post for a year but I just could not believe what I was reading.

I was looking through my Aerotech2 record sheet book (book 10973) and was looking at the war ships.

The biggest of a wimp of a fighter in the book has a LRM5 in each wing so at long range it can do 3 points small scale points of damage. It has 19 small scale or 2 large scale points of armor on its nose.(Clan Bashkir B a 20 ton fighter)

The Vincent Mk 42 corvette has 16 small scale or 2 large scale points of armor on its nose.




No, it has 16 points of capital-scale armor in its nose, equivalent to 160 standard (ie. BattleMech and ASF) scale points of armor. JumpShips, WarShips and space stations use capital scale for their armor and SI, which is equal to 10 standard scale, with standard scale representing your standard BattleMech, vehicle and ASF weaponry and armor.

Quote:

One lone 20 ton fighter has the chance to destroy a 420,000 ton warship. This is a weight ratio of 21,000 to one. The fighter should not have any chance what so ever to destroy a ship 21,000 times its size even if it rammed the ship and at that exact moment it sent its reactor to detonate. It just should not be able to destroy such a massive ship alone.




Fortunately, it doesn't, really. At best, the fighter in your example would round its 0.3-point capital scale bays into two 1-point bays. More likely, you'd abstract it by flying in a squadron/star of 5-10 other aircraft.

Since this was a Clan fighter, let's go ahead and go with ten fighters. For simplicity's sake, let's make them all the same fighter. That gives you two bays of 3 standard scale damage per fighter, times 10 fighters, means you've got two combined "bays" of 30 standard scale, or 3 capital scale points of damage, versus 160 standard or 16 capital scale points of armor.

At this point, our Star of ten Bashkir-Bs need to land six hits in the same location from their LRM bays to go internal on the Vincent Mk 42's nose. Those six hits do a total of 18 capital scale, removing the 16 points of armor, and leaving two points of damage that get done to the internal structure of the Vincent.

In the case of aerospace craft, internal damage is damage done to the SI. When damaging SI with weapons fire, damage is cut in half. The Vincent has 40 points of capital-grade SI, meaning the 2 capital grade points we have left over above will scratch off 1 point of the Vincent's SI, with 39 points remaining.

Let's say our Vincent keeps getting hit in the exact same spot by our 10-fighter Star. Damage for each of the Star's LRM "bays" is 30 standard/3 capital, in this case divided by 2, since it's being done to SI. Since 3/2 = 1.5, we have to round off, in this case to 2 points. It will now take another 20 hits to the exact same location to finish off the Vincent, assuming throughout this engagement the WarShip never gets hit anywhere but its nose.

Quote:

This is not the only warship in the book that has basically no armor what so ever to speak of. I counted 18 warships in the book that had 9 or less large scale armor points. That means that a single hit from one Medium NPPC can either entirely destroy the ship or at the least remove all armor in one location.




By 9 "large scale" I assume you're dividing the listed values by 10 again? As pointed out above, that would be incorrect, as they're already published at their capital scale values. The only jump-capable ships I can think of with less than 9 points of capital armor per location tend to be actual JumpShips, or perhaps some of the converted merchie transports like the Merchant Carrack.

Quote:

To take out most warships all you need is one dropship armed with very large numbers of Kraken capital missiles and a massive amount of armor and fire the missiles at extreme range. A lot of the missiles might either miss or be destroyed before they hit their target but for most warships it wont take to many missiles to hit for them to destroy most warships.

A single hit from ONE NAC/40 would destroy every warship in the book except for four of the warships. Of the four that could take that hit only one could take two hits from that same weapon with out being destroyed. .




A single NAC/40 hit wouldn't actually kill even a Vincent. Let's go ahead and let our Vincent get hit in a pristine nose location, since nose and tail have the least armor. The armor will absorb 16 of the 40 points of damage, leaving 24 points remaining to be dealt with. This will be applied to the Vincent's SI, which means it gets divided by two, for 12 points of damage to the Vincent's 40 SI, leaving 28 points of SI remaining. Amusingly, this is enough to take a second NAC/40 hit directly to SI, reducing it to 8 points of SI remaining, but leaving the Vincent still alive, barring any critical hits that may take out or cripple the ship.

Quote:

My small little 100,000 ton ship http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/175283/an/0/page/0#175283 can take on a large number of other warships and win with out the use of her two dropships or her fighter cover. With her two dropships and her 68 heavy fighters she can take on basically any warship in the book except the biggest 2,400,000 ton battleship and win. I would expect that I might lose all of the fighters and the two drop ships but my warship would come out of the battle in one piece going up against the bigger and better armed warships.




Not quite. Her armor is ballpark equivalent to a bigger ship, yes, like a Sovetskii Soyuz or Congress, maybe slightly better than both. It's weaker, though, than an Aegis, and with 25 SI, once that armor's punched, your ship's dead. In terms of firepower, you'd actually have difficulty opposing most canon ships.

Looking at it from a broadside engagement, you're ahead of an Inazuma, Lola III or Naga class, but actually behind a Fox class in terms of protection (I'm calculating this by adding up both side armor values, then double the written SI, since that takes half damage). You're also behind the curve compared to the tougher destroyers or the low-end/old cruisers: the Davion II, the Samarkand, the York, the Dart and the Black Lion I have heavier armor and SI.

It's not a bad ship, per se, but it's been built with some incorrect assumptions.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
csadn
10/26/17 11:23 PM
50.53.22.4

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I'll be honest: I never much cared for the FTL system as a whole -- seemed too artificial, and only existed to stop entire battlefleets thundering across hundreds of light-years and dropping directly onto opposing capital worlds.

It would have been nice if the DropShips had been FTL-capable themselves, in the vein of David Drake's Learyverse or Reaches stories -- whatever velocity and vector a ship has going into FTL determines how fast it travels in FTL [0.5G = 0.5ly/day]; fuel burn figures determine maximum range [a ship with 30 days' fuel at max burn can stay in FTL no more than 30 days, less time spent accelerating, or finding reaction mass in-system]; smaller ships can't perform long-duration FTL travel for practical reasons [yes, your fighter has enough fuel to spend 3 days in FTL; but the pilot has to spend those 3 days sitting down, unable to move around -- do the words "deep-vein thrombosis" ring any bells?].

But that's just my opinion.
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/28/17 05:18 PM
70.122.153.159

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I see that csadn went WAY off topic.

Not until GiovanniBlasini post I had not realized that I had made a few major mistakes that until now either no one even noticed or they did notice and did not go and correct me on.

This thread is actually the second major mistake that was never corrected until now. I was using standard scale armor points where I should have been using capital scale armor points.

The other major mistake was never pointed out that there was anything wrong with what I has posted and people actually said how wonderful what I had posted was.

I had said that my warship Ambassador Class Corvette (ships name "Jenny") capital scale armor protection was,

Location: L / R
Fore: 90
Fore-Left/Right: 85/85
Aft-Left/Right: 75/75
Aft: 75

What it should have been,

Location: L / R
Fore: 12
Fore-Left/Right: 12/12
Aft-Left/Right: 11/11
Aft: 10

I had made the mistake of dividing the IS weight by 5 instead of 50. I also did not add the extra 3 points in each armor location that the SI gives to the armor for having a SI of 25. "Aerotech 2 rules"

Cray who should have known something was fishy about the armor protection had said he was impressed in how much armor protection such a small warship had.
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GiovanniBlasini
10/29/17 11:51 PM
66.87.65.215

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Yeah, I suspect he, like me, didn't reverse-engineer the math. Not sure why nobody else noted the scale issues early on though.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
ghostrider
10/30/17 08:44 PM
66.74.61.223

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The factor of 10?

I don't have the rules for most of aerotech, except the first book, which is why I normally stay out of conversations about it.
Still not sure about the quick result system.
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