Clan Upgrades(Compared to IS Equipment)

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Retry
04/02/14 02:08 AM
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I was going to post this in the UAC5 vs. LB10X thread but decided this went too far off the point and made it's own thread for it.


Have you noticed how the upgrades to clan ACs are pitiful compared to clan versions of lasers and missiles?

SRM and LRM tonnages were halved. LRMs lost their min ranges. Crit requirements reduced. Their streaks weigh the same as a normal IS launcher too, and the streaks have 4/8/12 range unlike the IS. Also, streak LRMs are added to the arsenal, and Artemis V is available for standard launchers. The only thing that seems to be let alone are both heat generation and the normal ArtIV.

Along with the clear perk 2 crit DHS gives over 3 crit DHS, a few of the clan energy weapons have lost a crit to their IS counterparts. The ERLL has a large long range bracket, reaching out to 25 hexes(Better than every clan autocannon except the AC2s.). The large energy weapons like LLs and ERPPCs drop a ton, and all the energy weapons have a small damage buff over the IS. The most drastic upgrade is the cLPLs, which doubles the bloody range of the normal LPLs, PLUS a 1 point damage advantage, MINUS one ton!

Autocannons? Eh...

Their higher grade AC10s and 20s have the same damage, range, and nearly same heat output. Only crits and tonnage SLIGHTLY changes. The worst offender is the LB 10-X. The clan version saves a whopping *1* ton and an incredible *1* crit space. Clan Tech at it's best?

The low grade ACs aren't much better. The 10/20/30 LB 2-X may seem impressive on paper, until you realize it's another AC2... It doesn't help that it's completely outreached by the IS ELRMs by a great margin, and often outpowered, if you can get it to fit.

Another lowlife autocannon, the cUAC5. All it does is remove the already tiny minimum range, lower tonnage and crits by 2, and add a +1 to every range bracket compared to the is UAC5. It's not exactly stellar, is it.

Heck, I myself prefer the IS Light Gauss Rifle to most of the smaller clan UACs. It's range bracket manages to beat both clan AC5s and it's damage is superior, including it's Damage-to-ammo ratio(potential damage that can be dealt per ton of ammo. 8 damage * 16 ammo = 128, as opposed to the standard most-sized AC's 100 and the needlessly nerfed AC/2s 90) is top notch, and actually tops the normal gauss rifle by 8 points. The only catch is that they are heavy and somewhat bulky, yet clan autocannons aren't exempt from those flaws. Basically, any clan autocannon they don't outpower the LGR outranges, and any clan autocannon the LGR doesn't outrange it outpowers by a great margin.
ghostrider
04/02/14 04:54 AM
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When did they make lrm streaks?

The only reason I can think of right now for the reason cannons are so screwed up it because of the vehicle applications of them.

The lesser weight would benefit vehicles big time. No heat means no sinks.
Cost for ammo would go up, but that wouldn't be a great big issue. An extra cannon would mean mechs would lose their dominance.

I do agree they should be lighter, I would figure they would be less bulky then a gauss rifle just because they don't need the capacitors/coils along the barrel to fire. Otherwise they are basically the same thing.
I can understand not losing to many crits. They do have a hardened barrel and need shock absorbtion to keep on target to fire.
They can make extra light materials to handle fusion engines, it would make sense they could do it with cannons.

I can see energy weapons out ranging non idf cannons. Energy weapons could be argued to horizon, but the focus is lacking.
Missiles can be made into ibm. Which the game has not introduced with the exception of the arrows.
ghostrider
04/02/14 04:56 AM
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To add to this, why are IS cannons still restricted in range? By now they should match clan cannons. There have been enough salvage to fix this.

I would say the launchers as well, but that is another subject.
Retry
04/02/14 11:05 PM
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Restricted range? Tbh, the IS autocannons match the clan ones better than most other weapon comparisons.

Too bad autocannons suck to begin with.
ghostrider
04/03/14 12:01 AM
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The cannons should have no difference. You can use a captured clan cannon and have the same range using innersphere ammo, but yet you can not extend the range using clan ammo in an innersphere cannon.
Any bs about having software ugrade should mean the first time they get one for the clan cannon it should be used for all of them.

How does this figure?


Now as for things like the large pulse laser. Yes. The range difference is horrible. I could see the er lasers having issues with focusing, but the pulse should compensate for longer range issues.
CrayModerator
04/03/14 05:32 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

When did they make lrm streaks?



2005, when FanPro published MaxTech. Note they lack indirect fire, at least in Streak mode.

Quote:
They can make extra light materials to handle fusion engines, it would make sense they could do it with cannons.



Different materials. XL engines use the same semi-crystalline polymers as DHS. LBX autocannons use unrelated metals.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
04/03/14 11:43 PM
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Now why would they allow a streak lrm to fire idf period? that would be like people saying they should be able to use the cannons and gauss rifle to play artillery with them.

Maybe I just see to many issues with the new ways the publishers allow around the older rules.
Retry
04/03/14 11:48 PM
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IIRC Ghostrider, they can't indirect fire, period.

Devs got something right eh?

(iATMs, or Streak ATMs, can IDF, but they don't get their streak abilities. So they'd function like normal ATMs in IDF mode. Though I'm still certain streak LRMs simply can't IDF.)
Karagin
04/04/14 12:23 AM
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Why couldn't you use the ACs as improvised artillery? Lobbing the shells is all a simple matter of figuring out the range and bracketing the target.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
04/04/14 03:02 AM
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Because that would mean people would hide behind hills with everything and lob away.
I thought lrms were a bad idea from it, since they are soo messy in firing. They can't seem to hit a target with a full volley, why would firing up to let them come down on something be availible.

And since the tube artillery seem to be nothing more the large cannons, I am very much in the agreement of why can't they use normal acs to do indirect. It should be easier them missiles swarming every which way.

as for cannon construction, they make endo steel and ferrous fiber and a slew of other materials, I still don't understand why cannons are still this heavy.

And why there is a range difference between the innner sphere and the clans.
Retry
04/04/14 10:49 AM
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If there wasn't a range difference between the two, they'd be incredibly similar. The large caliber ones don't have a range difference and have only an advantage by a couple tons and crits, if that.

LACs do exist for the IS, though they aren't quite stellar.

The BA tube artillery strikes me more as a really big mortar than a direct fire cannon.

Missiles make more sense for IDF, since they presumably have a source of thrust and an independent navigation system to the target, and rudders and whatnot, and can probably change course when needed.

Unless you guys can manage to fire a gun from one end of a hill, over the hill, and back down to hit a target on the other side, I'd have to doubt the plausibility of AC IDF capabilities.
ghostrider
04/04/14 06:13 PM
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well isn't that the principal behind artillery?
You fire a big gun in an arc to hit something?

And if missiles had the guidance system worth a damn, then they shouldn't need the number of missiles that hit table. They should all hit.

Ok, I need to clearify this. The ultra and lbx series of cannons.
The only cannon that seemed to have the same range was the ac 10 series. Otherwise the clan cannons have 2-5 extra range.
As I asked. How can their be a difference with the ranges?
Either ammo can be used in the guns, but there is no change.
The cannons change the ranges. Why? The innersphere should have fixed any design issues when they came out with the rest of the series after getting some from the clans.
CrayModerator
04/04/14 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Why couldn't you use the ACs as improvised artillery?



Because the shells travel at a good part of escape velocity. Even an AC/20 fires its slugs at least at 3.6km/s, while an AC/2 or LB2X gets ridiculous. Same issue for GR: to achieve the range given in aerospace rules, you need velocities at about escape velocity.

Those are slugs that don't come back down on the far side of a hill. If they land, it's on another continent.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
04/04/14 07:02 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Maybe I just see to many issues with the new ways the publishers allow around the older rules.



Two points:
1) the Streak LRMs were written by FASA writers.
2) Streak LRMs are almost 10 years old.

Streak LRMs aren't something that were just introduced yesterday by the newest Catalyst Game Labs volunteer.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Retry
04/04/14 08:20 PM
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Was about to tell Ghostrider that ACs don't fire in an arc, they're nearly linear, but it looks like Cray has it covered.
ghostrider
04/04/14 08:30 PM
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Then the ac fires to the horizon?

Any object fired at an almost vertical angle will fall back down unless it reaches orbital volacity and achieves orbit. And with the new gyro rounds, it should be easier to do so.

Really. How far does an ac 20 shoot? And you say it would not be able to be fired in an arc?

10 years? Anything past clan invasion is new to me. I keep forgetting the company that owns battle tech has changed a few times.

As for the writters making the streak lrm, the game developers could do like they did so many times in the past. Put it down as non canon. They might as well come out with the superguided ibms and get it over with.
Karagin
04/04/14 08:50 PM
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See the changes to the ACs over the years, and how they are shown in the novels, really need to see things retconned and cleaned up. And if that is the case Cray on their speed, then where is the kinetic forced PR rolls each time any ballistic weapon above the MG hits a mech?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/04/14 08:52 PM
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That would actually make autocannons worth it...
ghostrider
04/04/14 09:51 PM
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Why not?
the novels are great for dropping mechs to the ground from a single gauss hit, or cannon below a 20. Leg hits, mech drops.

To add to it, the amor falling of would help overbalance the mech.
As you said about the speed of the ac 2. That should be more then enough to throw a mech off balance, even for the light hit it does.
Which leads to another question. Doesn't speed effect how much damage is done when a projectile hits?
Yes the weight does as well.
skiltao
04/07/14 03:31 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

You can use a captured clan cannon and have the same range using innersphere ammo



I think that's a house rule, not an official rule.
ghostrider
04/07/14 05:13 PM
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I have not seen anywhere saying you have to use clan ammo in a clan cannon to get the range from the weapon.

Same thing with lrms. No where have I seen you have to use clan ammo to remove the minimum range.

Also, I have not seen that if you use clan ammo, you gain the benefits of a lack of minimum from the lrms nor do you get the extra range from the cannon ammo.

Same is applied with the gauss rifle as well.
Retry
04/07/14 06:16 PM
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Have you seen anywhere saying the inverse? That you have to use clan cannons with clan ammo to get the range from the weapon?

I myself would have to say no, I have not heard of such a thing. Unless a rule states this stuff, it's more of a house rule.

The clan gauss rifle actually only differs with the IS gauss rifle by weight and crits.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/07/14 08:26 PM
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For the most part I would say you have to use clan ammo in clan weapons and IS ammo in IS weapons. There would have to be some differences in the ammo to make everything work right.

The exceptions would be, the MG since the only differences is the weight of the weapon. And the GR since the ammo has nothing to do with how the weapon operates.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
04/07/14 08:41 PM
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Lrm ammo I could let slip that they do not use the safety timer on it, that doesn't arm until it reaches a certain distance. I know the said something about that in the weapons description a while ago. The clans being less likely to sue for the warheads going off close by would not worry if they were active the moment they left the tubes. Ok, for minimum distance.

The fact that the lauchers are more horizontal then angled could be used for not making the distance with innersphere ammo. Kinda long shot, but its there.

Even examples of our own militaries would say a 9mm will fire from any weapons that uses a 9mm bullet. They are all uniformly the same shape. I have never seen shots that are just for a luger or glock. Same with a 12 gauge shot gun shell.

Some barrals are better then others for flight characteristics. But there is not special ammo for most. The high powered rifles use a necked down round. But that is marked.

As retry said, though I guess it needed to be verbalized. Have you ever seen the inverse said?
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/07/14 10:32 PM
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The difference between IS and Clan is like a .45 and a .45 magnum. there is a small difference in how the ammo is made making the two unusable in the wrong weapon.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
04/08/14 12:14 AM
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is there anywhere that this is actually stated in the rules?

I have never seen any restrictions on which ammo can be used in what tech for cannons or gauss rifles, or even the normal missile launchers.
skiltao
04/08/14 12:30 AM
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I've never seen a rule on the subject one way or the other. But autocannon don't have uniform caliber - I wouldn't automatically assume that the ammo from an 80mm AC/10 would be compatible with a 120mm AC/10.
ghostrider
04/08/14 04:13 AM
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That goes without saying for same level of equipment, ie the 185 mm guns on the demolisher may not match the gun on an atlas. But they don't do anything in the game about that. It is all standard ac 20 ammo for these examples.

That is in the same house. not even talking across house borders.
skiltao
04/08/14 01:14 PM
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Moving ammo from one unit to another isn't part of the game. Expanding the game to that level of detail requires house rules.
ghostrider
04/08/14 06:39 PM
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So salvage is not part of the game?
When running a campaign with limited resources, you can't take what the enemy has and use it?

I thought that was part of the whole battletech universe, atleast in the 3025 era.

There are examples in scenario pacts, one of them being Rhoda's irregulars where they spread ammo around to different units.

I do agree that an ac 5 mounted on a rifleman, is probably not the same as an ac 5 on a mad-3r. Hell even the ac 5 mounted on riflemen from 2 different houses, or even factories probably wouldn't be the same. But the game does not deal with that.

With that being said, the entire history of the innersphere would need to be rewritten, since invading forces did not have the ammo required to keep up such invasions. Stockpiles with ammo dumps would not be worth more then blowing up, since you could not use the ammo. Better to deny the enemy thoughts with it instead and take it for your own forces.
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