Published mech designs that you just have to ask why?

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KamikazeJohnson
09/04/15 09:49 PM
207.161.146.219

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

And with this, makes me ask why would you have to downgrade to a large laser in that set up? 13 heat sinks would fire both and walk without heat build up.



My bad, screwed up my example...I was thinking the Panther had only the basic 10 Hear Sinks. Review my reasoning with that in mind *shame*

My point was on effecient use of heat...10 dmg for 10 heat vs 15 damage for 9 heat. I'd rather have more firepower and use half of it under better conditions.

This is the one thing that makes the AC/10 (and even more so, the LB 10-X) a worthwhile weapon...it can go both ways with minimal heat.

This from a Reformed Alpha-Striker...I found my designs had much more impact when I stopped trying to power all weapons at all ranges.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
09/05/15 05:27 AM
76.89.121.69

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I agree with you on alot of that. If you used a mech for the proper volley fire, you can do more damage in the long run as you don't over heat and shut down faster. But that takes more patience then a lot of people have, including myself. I would try everything hoping for the one hit that ends the game. But then small battles tends to promote that thinking.

I would think if both sides had a full company of mechs, where you do something stupid like shut down from heat, and the unit does not survive the mistake. But with one on one, or even two on two, it is bad, but you can survive.
And the example works with the marauder design. Reduce to large lasers for better heat curve and lose the 2 points per ppc missing, plus the range. Granted the no minimum counters part of that, but you are more likely to fire the large lasers with the mediums since you don't lost the targeting at point blank range.

And I have seen the same instinct in others, such as the archer lrm 20's firing at point blank range, since they think the mls were crap.
csadn
09/08/15 03:35 AM
50.38.70.209

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One commonly-overlooked problem with "volley designs": A single unit with 2x the firepower is *not* worth 2x the value, because the enemy only has to kill it once. For example: A _Longbow_ -7V model vs. a _Stalker_; the only way the latter wins is if the former has *really* awful gunnery, allowing the latter to survive long enough to use the other half of its warload.

And if it has bucketloads of ammo onboard, that one kill is coming faster than most folks realize. I'm thinking of my preferred _Shadow Hawk_ mod, a -2K model with the LRM swapped for a ML, 2 JJ, enough HS to use it all, and a bit more armor; I was regularly killing heavies and assaults with it, because I could do 10 pts. all day long, while they were forever staring at 10s and 11s to hit, so not firing their ammo-using weapons, which left all that ammo onboard when I started doing internals.

Related to that: My unit is doing 10 pts. when it hits, and it's hitting about 50% of the time. My opponent has 40 points total to hand, but can only dole it out in 10- or 20-point amounts; and is hitting maybe every 20-25% of the time. So where's the advantage to having all that firepower? (Making it worse: In some cases, my medium 'Mech is better-armored than his heavy....)

And that's not getting into designs where not even volley-fire will save it -- _Rifleman_ in particular, but also _Archer_, _Warhammer_ and _Marauder_. None of these can fire both its heaviest-damage weapons, and move, in the same turn without overheating badly enough to start affecting performance. And these are the units "leading the way"; how are they supposed to do that when they cripple themselves after three turns of combat?

I can only go by my own experience, and that tells me: "The ghost of Jackie Fisher is looking down at us, and saying 'Does the name HMS _Dreadnought_ mean *anything* to you people?'"
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
Ironnerd
09/11/15 10:16 AM
68.184.124.238

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The 2x firepower is totally worth it if one of the two takes a crit. Basically the 'Mech is designed with 1 high-power weapon, and a spare and can stay in the battle. If arm mounted, the 2x big weapon also greatly expands the attack radius of the 'mech. If the big weapon uses ammo (like an A/C 20) having a boat load is a mixed blessing in that you are twice as likely to take a devastating ammo hit but your 'mech can stay in the fight twice as long. If one of the main weapons is taken out, the remaining weapon can use its ammo. And if things get ugly, the ammo can be dumped.


As for what makes me as "why": any Clan 'Mech with hands causes me some head scratchery. The Clanners don't engage in 'Mech melee (as a rule), so why have the hands?

It's not so bad the IS 'Mechs have hands since they actually do Melee, and the "Max Tech" book introduced some really nice rules for hand-held weapons.
ghostrider
09/11/15 11:27 AM
76.89.121.69

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I said it before, and will say it again.
Mechs are used for things like moving supplies and helping in construction. They can be tapped when an emergency happens, even in the clans. A forest fire around a weapons factory needs to be cleared. Setting the trees around the facility on fire is not a good idea.
Also, hands on a mech should make it easier to do things like climb a hill, or get up, but the game doesn't deal with that.

The issue with having more weapons then heat sinks can cover comes down to being able to control the urge to fire everything all the time. We look for that roll of a 12 to hit, then location and last, criticals done. If you shut down after the enemy is dead, then you did right. If you shut down, well theirs always the next game to make it right.
And restarting characters and mechs bites. Now if you had to start over again when you lost, how many people would melt their mech firing everything they could on the rifleman a second time?
Ironnerd
09/11/15 09:24 PM
68.184.124.238

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HANDS:
In the IS, I would agree. Clan Mechwarriors, however, are to elitist to put machines of war to such menial tasks. I read several novels way back when, and I just don't recall clan mechwarriors using their machine's hands - I remember them being used to dam a river, but not emergency services or clean-up detail. At least not on first line Omni's. The IIc's maybe, since they are piloted by second rate Clanners. And the hands go against a Clan design mindset for the Front-line Omnis - they are instruments of attack. Hands use up a critical space that could have been used for a weapon/ammo/etc...

"Real World" I agree. Clanners as presented in the fiction - not so much. Once I read a few clan-oriented novels, and the Wolf and Jade Falcon source books, I was more than happy to destroy these rigid, humorless, bigoted, snobs.

TOO MANY WEAPONS:
Agreed - 'mechs with "too much" firepower are only as good as their pilot (like any machine). There is too much temptation for some players to fire everything and trigger a shutdown in the hope of taking out the other 'mech. For some this is a normal tactic, that's why I run the heat scale up to 50 (per Max Tech, pg 27). No more Shut down, cool for a turn, and get back into the action. It takes a while to cool down from 40 or 50 heat, making your 'mech a big fat target.
ghostrider
09/12/15 12:15 AM
76.89.121.69

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It was the Jade Falcons during the Jade Phoenix saga. They were fighting comstar for the trial of refusal.
And during that time period, Aidan Pride actually sacrificed machines to form a breakwater in the river so the others could get across. So much for not making waste.

Now from what I have seen in the books, there are a few omnis that use hands, as well as first rate warriors using the second line mechs. They normally have lost their primary rides in combat, and will NOT allow the second rate warriors to use a mech in combat as long as they can still fight. I have also seen omnis in second rate units as well. Normally a warrior that has been demoted, but not stripped of their mech.

Now your scale would assume no ammo for weapons. I would also think adding in the chance for the reactor to just melt down. Say roll for crit. 8+ and mech goes bye bye. I really thing a mech should not go beyond 30 myself, but then I am not normally lucky to avoid shut down before hand. Maybe do the tank limit once you get in that range, ie puts you over 30 and unit won't fire that weapon.

Now taking up critical slots. That is iffy, as most of their mech load outs are not even close to being out of criticals. For a long while, clan pilots did not use or accept jump jets on their units for that very reason. They took away from weapons. It was only after they innersphere pilots started jumping into their rear did they start using them.
NeverSayNever
09/13/15 07:05 PM
80.187.113.89

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Quote:

Without any design flaws / quirks in the official Mech designs there would be very little left to complain / **** / moan, errr, sorry, debate, errr, sorry, discuss about...





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Published mech designs that you just have to ask why? DavidG 746 36 09/11/15 09:15 PM
by ghostrider "


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