Published mech designs that you just have to ask why?

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DavidG
07/21/15 09:32 PM
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Ok, I'd like to start a discussion about mechs that are designed by the publishers that leave you asking why they did that. Examples would be not using double heat sinks after they are available, and designing a mech that over heats, when it wouldn't cost that much to put them in.

The one that stands out to me is the 3050 redesign of the Marauder II. The original mech had 2 PPCs and 1 Large laser as its main weapons. The mech had 29 single heat sinks which allowed if to fire all it's main weapons and walk without overheating. The redesign gave it an XL engine to gain weight for upgrading the large laser to a LB10X. Then they gave it ER PPCs but left the 29 single heat sinks. WHY? A better design would have been to leave the engine alone, and just give it double heat sinks. If done this way, the Marauder II could keep its upgraded weapons, have 17 double heat sinks and give the LB10X 4 tons of ammo and the add ECM. This gives the same performance along with longer endurance and without the chance of the mech shutting down with an ammo explosion. A none XL engine means the mech will survive longer in a heated battle. Also, with a standard engine the mech cost almost half as much.

So my question is, why? Feel free to comment on the Marauder II or any mech that makes you ask why?
ghostrider
07/21/15 10:37 PM
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Step one with the marauder II design. 17 double heat sinks will not fit in the mech. Even with those sinks the engine hides there is still not enough space in the mech to cover the 3 crit using innersphere heatsinks. Even just using 7 double sinks that is 21 spots used, and they can not be split between locations. Not enough for the xl and the sinks so you would have to put them in the arms, since they do NOT fit in the legs. I agree it is stupid, but that is the problem that I seen when trying to figure it out.

Alot of people condemn the xl engine, but I like them as the allow more options then without. It is possible that some extra weapons or the ability to use what you have more often can result in surviving a battle. Without the crits deciding a battle, I have rarely seen a mech lose one torso and survive the game without an xl engine. Most of the time it falls and cant get up, or ammo explodes.

But I do agree there are some mechs that are not something I can see as being useful. The Stealth with innersphere weapons package. Any where but close range and you can't use the weapons. Yes it is fast and jumps well, but I just don't see it being worth the money. And being that close, arm strikes are a better choice then kicks as most of the time you are jumping in and out.

The Hollander mech is great with the guass rifle, but 8 shots just isn't worth fielding it. You miss and that's it. Yes, it is like the ac 20 that when it does hit, it hurts. Just don't see it.

This is especially true of the updated ostscout. No weapons except physical? Special ops mech I understand, but when it does come to trying to fight it's way out? A spider can take it down.
DavidG
07/21/15 11:05 PM
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Hey, thanks for the input, but on my reconfigure of the Marauder II it doesn't have and XL engine. The crits are as follows: Head - standard; RA - SH, UAA, LAA, ERPPC, ML, DHS, two crit left; RT - 4 tons ammo, 2 DHS, CASE, one crit left;, CT - 6 Engine, 4 Gyro, Jump jet, one crit left; LT - LB10X, DHS, ECM, one crit left; LA - SH, UAA, LAA, ER PPC, ML, DHS, two crti left; LL and RL - standard with one Jump jet in each and one crit left. This is with 17 DHS, remember 12 are in the engine so I only had to place 5. This Mech cost 10,984,000 C-Bills vs the original Marauder II from 3050 that cost 22,456,000 C-Bills. You get the same mech for half the price.
KamikazeJohnson
07/21/15 11:33 PM
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Quote:
DavidG writes:

Hey, thanks for the input, but on my reconfigure of the Marauder II it doesn't have and XL engine. The crits are as follows: Head - standard; RA - SH, UAA, LAA, ERPPC, ML, DHS, two crit left; RT - 4 tons ammo, 2 DHS, CASE, one crit left;, CT - 6 Engine, 4 Gyro, Jump jet, one crit left; LT - LB10X, DHS, ECM, one crit left; LA - SH, UAA, LAA, ER PPC, ML, DHS, two crti left; LL and RL - standard with one Jump jet in each and one crit left. This is with 17 DHS, remember 12 are in the engine so I only had to place 5. This Mech cost 10,984,000 C-Bills vs the original Marauder II from 3050 that cost 22,456,000 C-Bills. You get the same mech for half the price.



Is the Marauder II a Kurita 'Mech? Not all that well-versed on the history, but I remember having it pointed out to me that the Dracos didn't have DHS in 3050.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
DavidG
07/21/15 11:49 PM
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Hey KamikazeJohnson, the Marauder II is a Wolfs Dragoon's mech built by Blackwell Industries. A few have been sold to other units starting around 3040.
KamikazeJohnson
07/22/15 12:12 AM
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Quote:
DavidG writes:

Hey KamikazeJohnson, the Marauder II is a Wolfs Dragoon's mech built by Blackwell Industries. A few have been sold to other units starting around 3040.



Ok...IIRC, the Annihilator was also a Dragoon design, and the 3050 model also uses Single Heat Sinks.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
07/22/15 12:20 AM
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Ok. You had said something about the original redesign, not a custom design when you spoke about it.

It has been a while since I dealt with heat sinks and how many an engine hides for designs. and with an xl that removes the space for a pair of innersphere double heat sinks. I can't find the book with the updated 2 in it at this time. I wanted to see if it did use the xl or not.

And since the dragoons had clan tech when they arrived, it would make sense they would build clan tech things like double heat sinks if you really want to go that route.

And if what you say is accurate KJ, the tro 3050 is wrong. The kurita version of the charger 3k, the grand dragon 5k, the kintaro 20, all list they have double heatsinks.
Did they change this in newer printings?
DavidG
07/22/15 12:22 AM
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I know, but it can fire it's main weapons without overheating. It doesn't need them.
DavidG
07/22/15 01:21 AM
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Sorry for any confusion Ghostrider. What I was talking about was why when they upgraded the Marauder II from 3025 tech to 3050 tech, did they go the XL engine route instead of using DHS. My redesign of the 3050 mech is cheaper and produces a better mech IMO. Again, sorry for any misunderstandings. Also about Kurita and DHS, 3050 was the year that they started using new designs with them. They had gotten a lot of help from ComStar which allowed this.
FrabbyModerator
07/22/15 02:42 AM
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In-universe, they don't play by the BattleTech boardgame rules and thus don't optimize for that ruleset. Instead, considerations like cost, availability, practicability, ease of maintenance, quirks, etc. which aren't covered in the game rules are factored in and result in designs that are sub-optimal.

TRO3025 in particular is full of fluff examples where things that should be easily possible under the construction rules somehow wouldn't work properly in-universe.

As a real-world analogy, think of new cars that somehow manage to have problems which other manufacturers have long since solved.

Finally, from a gameplay viewpoint optimal 'Mechs are considered boring by many.
ghostrider
07/22/15 04:39 AM
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Optimal mechs are not fun to fight against. Imagine an archer that can fire both lrms each turn until it runs out. If you don't have a fast mech, it is possible you can't get in range with your laser boat before they tear into your internals. Try fighting your own designs that are maxed out. Not mirror matches, but use normal mechs against them.

Other mech the dragoons brought with them is the imp as well as the falcon, flea, hornet and a couple of others. They also has access to clan tech, which they didn't use at that time, and it seems the didn't upgrade to after everyone found out they were part of the clans.

I think the xl engine is good, but most hate it because of a lost torso means mech out of game. At least if you use the innersphere xl. It is very expensive to use, and dhs is an easier way for cooling, but it doesn't change the fact that weight is still a major issue. Endosteel and ferrous fiber armor using so many criticals for the innersphere, it is almost worthless. But yet people would rather use them instead of an xl engine. I understand it, but do not agree with it all.
Now for some, a mech has to have full armor, yet a few think extra weapons or ammo is better. For the larger engines the half weight is worth it. For an urban mech it isn't.

So it comes down to the way you think. An extra pair of lasers you can fire each turn is worth the risk of shutting down when you lose a torso?

And sadly expense is only figured in when you play a merc.
Maurer
07/22/15 05:54 AM
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It probably has to do with the Marauder II C (not to be confused with the Marauder IIC).

Marauder II C
The Marauder II C is a variant specially built for Wolf's Dragoons using Clan technology. The 'Mech is powered by a 400 rated XL Engine, which gives it a maximum speed of 64.8 km/h, matching the original Marauder. Additionally, the 'Mech is armed with two ER PPCs, two ER Medium Lasers, and an LB-X Autocannon/10. Finally, the Marauder II C has excellent mobility provided by its jump jets with a jumping distance of one hundred and twenty meters. BV (1.0) = 2,991, BV (2.0) = 2,916[16]


Source

It's either an Inner Sphere model that the Wolf's Dragoons buy and then refit with clan tech or an Inner Sphere version of the Wolf's Dragoons more advanced model (same features, less performance).
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama

"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier
ghostrider
07/22/15 11:13 AM
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The sad thing about quirks in the game, is the developers are not consistent with the quirks they put out.
One major case point. the Awesome. 3 ppcs in the mech from the FWL, yet everything you see about them, they have a major shortage of ppcs. I know importing and things like that, but why would they continue to make the main mech if they didn't have the weapons for it?
I would think the varients would be the main one, and the ppc a rare varient or other state upgrade.
Though the marauder variant uses large lasers instead of the ppcs.
FrabbyModerator
07/22/15 12:43 PM
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The Awesome, being an assault 'Mech, isn't built in large numbers to begin with so the total number of PPCs taken up by the FWL's Awesome arsenal probably isn't very high.

And then there's of course the fact that somebody cooked up not one but three Awesome variants that replace the PPCs with LRMs and Large Lasers. This just screams "FWL stopgap measure" - I reckon a majority of FWL Awesomes doesn't actually wield three PPCs after all (often none at all).

Which, incidentially, is another good example for in-universe considerations trumping boardgame rules optimisation.


Edited by Frabby (07/22/15 12:50 PM)
RockJock
08/10/15 02:58 AM
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You also have to remember that during the Succession Wars houses had to deal with what they could build with cobbled together factories. The FWL had a shortages of PPCs, but needed to keep churning out as many Awesomes, even with alternate weapons as they could. The LCAF would have loved to have a working PPC armed Zeus, but were stuck with the AC verion because they lacked the engineering knowledge to tweak it correctly. The Charger and Banshee were not anybodies first choice, but they beat not maing anything on those lines. That is why things like the Grand Dragon, PPC armed Zeus, slowered Charger with alternate weapons, and 3/5 Banshee with bigger guns was such a big deal when they came out. For the first time in generations new configuriations were coming out of factories perfected instead of jury rigged.

Many of the 3050 refits were of dubious value. The Grasshopper and Hunchback come to mind, but there are many others.
NeverSayNever
08/12/15 07:35 PM
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a few reasons, listed in no particular order:


Filler - to get another TRO / record sheet book filled, published and sold - without revealing all the good stuff in just one book, there are future books to fill with a nice mix.


One man's trash is another man's treasure. Different strokes for differebt folks. Some people like playing with poor designs just for the challenge, or for the LOLs, or for masochism's sake, or for the sake of variety, or the underdog appeal, or whatever.


A writer may want something special / intentionally quirky for a new novel, but great for a novel does not necessarily equal great performance in the board game, some writers may not even actually play the BT board game.


I like fluff stories, variety, snall design quirks and oddities, challenges, playing the underdog - and sometimes there might be some kind of masochistic tendency involved, heh, I used to play Neveron, that should tell you something about masochistic tendencies and such...
NeverSayNever
08/14/15 05:10 AM
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Sorry, forgot the following reason:

Without any design flaws / quirks in the official Mech designs there would be very little left to complain / **** / moan, errr, sorry, debate, errr, sorry, discuss about...
happyguy49
08/14/15 12:28 PM
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Indeed.

Also, maybe there are so many obviously-bad designs in the books to make players WANT to delve into designing their own machines. A player goes from "a monkey could make a better design" to "I'll make my OWN mech!" (with blackjack and hookers, of course)
NeverSayNever
08/16/15 11:30 AM
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Do you remember "Star Wars - A New Hope"?

Imagine a "Death Star" without design flaws. Imperial turbo lasers not having any issues targetting and hitting small rebel tie fighters and no vulnerable small thermal exhaust port leading directly into the main reactor core of the "Death Star"? End of the rebellion, no happy end for the rebels, no sequels, no Ewok merchandise to sell later on - and so on...

"Help us, design flaws, you're our only hope for a nice little story!"


Edited by NeverSayNever (08/16/15 11:51 AM)
FrabbyModerator
08/16/15 05:04 PM
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Two or three points to add:

Whether a given design is "flawed" heavily depends on the ruleset you're examining it under. Weapons that suck under standard rules may shine under Solaris 7 duelling rules (MGs), or vice versa (LRMs).
Or look up the "Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week" article for the Banshee over at the BattleTech forum to see how a perceived construction trainwreck under standard rules can be a design masterpiece under Alpha Strike rules.

Also, rules change. In particular, the infamous classic "torso bomb" designs simply didn't exist when these 'Mechs were statted, as standard Battledroids had a very different critical hit system. And even under Advanced Battledroids rules, which were similar to standard Battletech and now Total Warfare/Intro rules, ammo explosions were very rare: There were no internal heat sinks in the engine, hence many more heat sink crits were available for "padding out" torso locations with ammo.

Finally, it may be worth pointing out that the original 16 'Mech designs at least were not designed to be optimal under any ruleset. Instead, they were built with the existing construction rules to fit their artwork which FASA had famously bought from a third party - the Unseen. The WHM-6R has a SRM-6 not because it's optimal on the design, but because the art showed it with a six-shot launcher on its right shoulder.
ghostrider
08/16/15 09:03 PM
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I would guess the original units were not designed to be anything more then a jack of all trades. You needed to be able to use them against any opponents.

And I can see where alpha strike concept would have a mech severally undergunned, since you would be looking to fire everything at once, not trying to do the most damage at an appropriate range, ie using ppcs and ac 5s at point blank unless that is all you have.

I can see the stinger being a scout mech, not a light assault mech. Yet with the speed of it and extra armor, the locust might actually fit that definition.
And let's face it, the urbie would never be considered a scout mech. No way to get out if you get caught.

And the art work did not always go with the mech. A few things were out of place, on a few of them. Don't know if they reversed the picture.

I guess the min/max idea killed the concept of jack of all trades. More weapons, less sinks when using bracket firing, verse the alpha all day long.
NeverSayNever
08/27/15 04:45 PM
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error detected:
"hitting small rebel tie fighters"

should have been:
"hitting small rebel x-wing fighters"


Message generated by your friendly protocol droid, Cee-Three-Pee-Oh.

These are not the errors you are looking for. Move along.
NeverSayNever
08/27/15 05:16 PM
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BTW, why do the sound effects for the bad guys' fighters sound much 'better' / cooler in SW?

And why does it matter? I mean mo one can hear you scream in soace (a vacuuam), correct? So no screeching sounds by tie fighters passing by in space.

Or recoil, on laser weapons (Millenium Falcon, turret lasser guns, ypu remembder?), I mean, come on, and yes, nice visual effect, sure, but...

Well, at least no ridiculous recoil on laser based weapons in BattleTech, or, I mean, could a BT novel writer...? No. Relax. Breathe. Now where did I put my cool black breathing mask?
ghostrider
08/27/15 06:13 PM
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The falcons turrets acted more like flack guns though it looks like lasers. the targeting system shows solid projectiles hitting the fighters as well as looking like recoil. Nice effects though.

Now not only the fact sounds do not travel in the vacuum, but most games and movies do not show the real effects of a craft flying in space.
The air resistance of an atmosphere, makes those turns and changing directions smooth and easy. The newer BSG had some realism to it, as a fighter changing direction will not turn and move that direction like that. Sideslipping will occur as the momentum of the unit will keep heading the old direction until it over comes inertia. Even a full 180 will cause the craft to slow, stop then start the opposite direction. Not very pleasing to see, but it is reality.
Now the old battlestar had one thing most do not realize with ships. The roar of the engine would echo throughout the ship. Dampening the sound would be difficult at best, since the solid mount of the thrusters would vibrate the entire ship.
csadn
09/03/15 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Frabby writes:
[...]it may be worth pointing out that the original 16 'Mech designs at least were not designed to be optimal under any ruleset. Instead, they were built with the existing construction rules to fit their artwork which FASA had famously bought from a third party - the Unseen. The WHM-6R has a SRM-6 not because it's optimal on the design, but because the art showed it with a six-shot launcher on its right shoulder.



Funny you mention this -- because my answer to the OP is "every Original 16 'Mech design over 55 tons"; all are ludicrously overgunned and under-heatsinked.

And the worst part: They didn't have to be that way; the could have been given lesser guns, and still retained some level of flawed-ness. For ex.: Take a _Warhammer_, or _Marauder_; replace each PPC w/ LLs and two HS. The WHR goes from 34/18 heat/sinks to 30/22; the MAD 29/16 to 25/20. *Slightly* more convincing as "assault units", as they don't cripple themselves the first time they have to alpha-strike. (Nothing was going to help the _Rifleman_, tho'. >:) )
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
ghostrider
09/03/15 11:27 AM
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Ahh, but your miss the original idea of having them set up like that.
All weapons were not to be fired at one time, but in their brackets.
It was overlooked by the designers that people would continue to fire the ppcs at point blank ranges, when it was not a good idea.
And if you know where the pictures came from, you would understand WHY the weapons were set like they were. If not for following this issue, they would have been better designed.

When city tech came out, machine guns were pretty well useless, as a weapon against anything but infantry. And even then, when a ppc did 10 points at range, why bother with the mg with a max range of 3? Three hits with a ppc on the unit killed them. Max speed for them would not have even allowed them in range of firing the infantry srms if so equipped.

The alpha strike came about when people figured if they fired everything at once, you were more likely to hit with something and possibly take out the enemy then using bracket fire. Even at 7+ to hit, you still ended up missing. When you have one long range weapons, like the Phoenix Hawk, that could be bad for you.
csadn
09/04/15 03:54 AM
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Quote:
All weapons were not to be fired at one time, but in their brackets.
[...]
The alpha strike came about when people figured if they fired everything at once, you were more likely to hit with something and possibly take out the enemy then using bracket fire. Even at 7+ to hit, you still ended up missing. When you have one long range weapons, like the Phoenix Hawk, that could be bad for you.



And you hit on the important issue: How often does a player get to fire "appropriate weapons in appropriate brackets"? Between the opponent moving, and oneself moving, trying to get the *&^%$#! into one's preferred range whilst staying out of his is an exercise in frustration, esp. once the targeting mods start piling up (and in 3025, this is bloody-near impossible; the infamous "9-hex bubble" being what it was). As you point out: One was forced to fire everything at once because volley-fire was more likely to hit; and not only that, one needed to get rid of one's ammo before a critical hit sent one's 'Mech sheet to the recycle bin. (I drove _Shadow Hawk_s; been there, done that, more times than I care to count. )

That being said: This is an example of Steve Jackson's "Playtest The Dumb Strategies" rule -- don't assume "no one will ever fire *all* his weapons at once -- that's dumb", because the next words one says after this will be "*&^%$#! IT, CARL!"

For my part: My Outworlds Alliance files are filled with modified designs based around someone saying "Hey -- these things are *expensive*; can we do something to make them *not* spontaneously explode, combust, or melt?". (This is why people looked at me oddly when The Clans appeared -- one of my _Marauder_ mods swapped the PPCs for LLs, and the AC for a pair of LRM5s *years* before TR3050 was first released.)
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
ghostrider
09/04/15 11:24 AM
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Yeah, a Shadow Hawk with the lrm 5, srm 2, and ac 5 tended to be uncomfortable to use when internals started showing up. A single medium laser was not sufficient to really keep it in the field.
In a marauder, the ac for lrms with heat sinks would have been the thought, though I am fond of ppcs.
And I have seen where archers and crusaders were using lrms in physical combat range, because if you can get the 20 packs on the archer to hit, you will do more damage then the mls will.
And I admit, I have things like this in desperation as well. And this is not including the unlucky days where you need a 5 or better and miss with 5 out of 6 shots.

I wonder if range brackets should be changed, since this is such an issue. Why use mls at even a range of 3 when the ppc will do more damage? Or something that changes the entire issue, a simple hex further. A range of 4.
Outside ppc minimum, yet still in short range, while the mls are now at medium range. Or use the P-Hawk. The large laser is short still, and mls medium. You know you are going to cook using both types yet there is almost no choice but to fire both types.
KamikazeJohnson
09/04/15 07:02 PM
38.108.87.20

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Quote:
csadn writes:

Quote:
All weapons were not to be fired at one time, but in their brackets.
[...]
The alpha strike came about when people figured if they fired everything at once, you were more likely to hit with something and possibly take out the enemy then using bracket fire. Even at 7+ to hit, you still ended up missing. When you have one long range weapons, like the Phoenix Hawk, that could be bad for you.



And you hit on the important issue: How often does a player get to fire "appropriate weapons in appropriate brackets"? Between the opponent moving, and oneself moving, trying to get the *&^%$#! into one's preferred range whilst staying out of his is an exercise in frustration, esp. once the targeting mods start piling up (and in 3025, this is bloody-near impossible; the infamous "9-hex bubble" being what it was). As you point out: One was forced to fire everything at once because volley-fire was more likely to hit; and not only that, one needed to get rid of one's ammo before a critical hit sent one's 'Mech sheet to the recycle bin. (I drove _Shadow Hawk_s; been there, done that, more times than I care to count. )

That being said: This is an example of Steve Jackson's "Playtest The Dumb Strategies" rule -- don't assume "no one will ever fire *all* his weapons at once -- that's dumb", because the next words one says after this will be "*&^%$#! IT, CARL!"

For my part: My Outworlds Alliance files are filled with modified designs based around someone saying "Hey -- these things are *expensive*; can we do something to make them *not* spontaneously explode, combust, or melt?". (This is why people looked at me oddly when The Clans appeared -- one of my _Marauder_ mods swapped the PPCs for LLs, and the AC for a pair of LRM5s *years* before TR3050 was first released.)



The quickly-escalating target numbers where the main reason I started toying with my 2D8 rules, where each +1 has a much lower effect on the probabilities.

In the Volley Fire vs Full Fire though...I have to disagree with you. Inefficient weapons notwithstanding, you will almost always get more effective firepower out of a Volley design. The key is the Heat Sinks...a Volley design only needs enough sinks for HALF of the 'Mech's total heat generation. On average, you'll see about 50% - 60% more firepower on a Volley 'Mech...and at any given range you should have about 80% as much optimal firepower, but you'll tend to have better target numbers. Plus, if you take a hit to a weapon, you can push for a different range bracket and still have ample firepower.

A good example is a simple Panther mod. Drop the SRM and you have 3 tons to play with. You can add a LRM 5 to work with the PPC at long range, but then you'd have to downgrade the PPC to a Large Laser for a couple extra Heat Sinks, leaving you with decreased range and a minimal increase in firepower. Or, you can add 3 Medium Lasers, giving you the same firepower at long range, and 50% MORE firepower in close (without firing the PPC). Plus, you have the option of saying "screw it" and firing everything.

A well-designed Volley 'Mech, used properly, will outperform a Full Fire design almost every time.

Of course...most of the official 3025 designs were far from "well-designed", so the point may well be moot...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
09/04/15 09:18 PM
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Range fire verse volley fire has alot of issues the really cause problems. The archer is a good example. Once you start getting under the minimum range of the lrms, the lasers are supposed to take over for dealing with the damage. Granted the picture caused someone to mount half that range fire in the rear, (I agree very stupid), but even at the start of the minimum range, the lrms are too much damage to stop firing from 4 to 6 range. Even just firing one lrm 20 is potentially more damage then both forward firing lasers.
For some units, like the Panther modification with the ppc/lrm 5, you can fire both weapons and not heat up. You can't jump, but that is pretty true of using the ppc by itself. And with this, makes me ask why would you have to downgrade to a large laser in that set up? 13 heat sinks would fire both and walk without heat build up.
If you look at the valkyrie, that mech has issues as the 4 to 6 range, with the lrm 10/medium laser combination. Full fire is more likely to get something to hit verses one or the other. Not good, but atleast something.
Now if you compare then normal maruader. Volley fire with it is the best way to deal with things. Round 1 use both ppcs, while round 2 drop one and add ac. In shorter ranges, drop one ppc for mls and ac. The damage spread kinda gets you though.
I would rather do 10 points to one location then 5 points to 2 locations. But that is me.

Some people love their crit makers where they are not looking to damage the mech as much as get the mech killing crit. They never seem to take much armor off anything, but wipe out engines and gyros.
But you are correct with the design statement. A volley mech has more weapons then heat sinks since they are not designed to fire everything every round. But that would mean using them correctly, which seems to come back to fire everything when ever you can.
KamikazeJohnson
09/04/15 09:49 PM
207.161.146.219

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

And with this, makes me ask why would you have to downgrade to a large laser in that set up? 13 heat sinks would fire both and walk without heat build up.



My bad, screwed up my example...I was thinking the Panther had only the basic 10 Hear Sinks. Review my reasoning with that in mind *shame*

My point was on effecient use of heat...10 dmg for 10 heat vs 15 damage for 9 heat. I'd rather have more firepower and use half of it under better conditions.

This is the one thing that makes the AC/10 (and even more so, the LB 10-X) a worthwhile weapon...it can go both ways with minimal heat.

This from a Reformed Alpha-Striker...I found my designs had much more impact when I stopped trying to power all weapons at all ranges.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
09/05/15 05:27 AM
76.89.121.69

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I agree with you on alot of that. If you used a mech for the proper volley fire, you can do more damage in the long run as you don't over heat and shut down faster. But that takes more patience then a lot of people have, including myself. I would try everything hoping for the one hit that ends the game. But then small battles tends to promote that thinking.

I would think if both sides had a full company of mechs, where you do something stupid like shut down from heat, and the unit does not survive the mistake. But with one on one, or even two on two, it is bad, but you can survive.
And the example works with the marauder design. Reduce to large lasers for better heat curve and lose the 2 points per ppc missing, plus the range. Granted the no minimum counters part of that, but you are more likely to fire the large lasers with the mediums since you don't lost the targeting at point blank range.

And I have seen the same instinct in others, such as the archer lrm 20's firing at point blank range, since they think the mls were crap.
csadn
09/08/15 03:35 AM
50.38.70.209

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One commonly-overlooked problem with "volley designs": A single unit with 2x the firepower is *not* worth 2x the value, because the enemy only has to kill it once. For example: A _Longbow_ -7V model vs. a _Stalker_; the only way the latter wins is if the former has *really* awful gunnery, allowing the latter to survive long enough to use the other half of its warload.

And if it has bucketloads of ammo onboard, that one kill is coming faster than most folks realize. I'm thinking of my preferred _Shadow Hawk_ mod, a -2K model with the LRM swapped for a ML, 2 JJ, enough HS to use it all, and a bit more armor; I was regularly killing heavies and assaults with it, because I could do 10 pts. all day long, while they were forever staring at 10s and 11s to hit, so not firing their ammo-using weapons, which left all that ammo onboard when I started doing internals.

Related to that: My unit is doing 10 pts. when it hits, and it's hitting about 50% of the time. My opponent has 40 points total to hand, but can only dole it out in 10- or 20-point amounts; and is hitting maybe every 20-25% of the time. So where's the advantage to having all that firepower? (Making it worse: In some cases, my medium 'Mech is better-armored than his heavy....)

And that's not getting into designs where not even volley-fire will save it -- _Rifleman_ in particular, but also _Archer_, _Warhammer_ and _Marauder_. None of these can fire both its heaviest-damage weapons, and move, in the same turn without overheating badly enough to start affecting performance. And these are the units "leading the way"; how are they supposed to do that when they cripple themselves after three turns of combat?

I can only go by my own experience, and that tells me: "The ghost of Jackie Fisher is looking down at us, and saying 'Does the name HMS _Dreadnought_ mean *anything* to you people?'"
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
Ironnerd
09/11/15 10:16 AM
68.184.124.238

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The 2x firepower is totally worth it if one of the two takes a crit. Basically the 'Mech is designed with 1 high-power weapon, and a spare and can stay in the battle. If arm mounted, the 2x big weapon also greatly expands the attack radius of the 'mech. If the big weapon uses ammo (like an A/C 20) having a boat load is a mixed blessing in that you are twice as likely to take a devastating ammo hit but your 'mech can stay in the fight twice as long. If one of the main weapons is taken out, the remaining weapon can use its ammo. And if things get ugly, the ammo can be dumped.


As for what makes me as "why": any Clan 'Mech with hands causes me some head scratchery. The Clanners don't engage in 'Mech melee (as a rule), so why have the hands?

It's not so bad the IS 'Mechs have hands since they actually do Melee, and the "Max Tech" book introduced some really nice rules for hand-held weapons.
ghostrider
09/11/15 11:27 AM
76.89.121.69

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I said it before, and will say it again.
Mechs are used for things like moving supplies and helping in construction. They can be tapped when an emergency happens, even in the clans. A forest fire around a weapons factory needs to be cleared. Setting the trees around the facility on fire is not a good idea.
Also, hands on a mech should make it easier to do things like climb a hill, or get up, but the game doesn't deal with that.

The issue with having more weapons then heat sinks can cover comes down to being able to control the urge to fire everything all the time. We look for that roll of a 12 to hit, then location and last, criticals done. If you shut down after the enemy is dead, then you did right. If you shut down, well theirs always the next game to make it right.
And restarting characters and mechs bites. Now if you had to start over again when you lost, how many people would melt their mech firing everything they could on the rifleman a second time?
Ironnerd
09/11/15 09:24 PM
68.184.124.238

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HANDS:
In the IS, I would agree. Clan Mechwarriors, however, are to elitist to put machines of war to such menial tasks. I read several novels way back when, and I just don't recall clan mechwarriors using their machine's hands - I remember them being used to dam a river, but not emergency services or clean-up detail. At least not on first line Omni's. The IIc's maybe, since they are piloted by second rate Clanners. And the hands go against a Clan design mindset for the Front-line Omnis - they are instruments of attack. Hands use up a critical space that could have been used for a weapon/ammo/etc...

"Real World" I agree. Clanners as presented in the fiction - not so much. Once I read a few clan-oriented novels, and the Wolf and Jade Falcon source books, I was more than happy to destroy these rigid, humorless, bigoted, snobs.

TOO MANY WEAPONS:
Agreed - 'mechs with "too much" firepower are only as good as their pilot (like any machine). There is too much temptation for some players to fire everything and trigger a shutdown in the hope of taking out the other 'mech. For some this is a normal tactic, that's why I run the heat scale up to 50 (per Max Tech, pg 27). No more Shut down, cool for a turn, and get back into the action. It takes a while to cool down from 40 or 50 heat, making your 'mech a big fat target.
ghostrider
09/12/15 12:15 AM
76.89.121.69

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It was the Jade Falcons during the Jade Phoenix saga. They were fighting comstar for the trial of refusal.
And during that time period, Aidan Pride actually sacrificed machines to form a breakwater in the river so the others could get across. So much for not making waste.

Now from what I have seen in the books, there are a few omnis that use hands, as well as first rate warriors using the second line mechs. They normally have lost their primary rides in combat, and will NOT allow the second rate warriors to use a mech in combat as long as they can still fight. I have also seen omnis in second rate units as well. Normally a warrior that has been demoted, but not stripped of their mech.

Now your scale would assume no ammo for weapons. I would also think adding in the chance for the reactor to just melt down. Say roll for crit. 8+ and mech goes bye bye. I really thing a mech should not go beyond 30 myself, but then I am not normally lucky to avoid shut down before hand. Maybe do the tank limit once you get in that range, ie puts you over 30 and unit won't fire that weapon.

Now taking up critical slots. That is iffy, as most of their mech load outs are not even close to being out of criticals. For a long while, clan pilots did not use or accept jump jets on their units for that very reason. They took away from weapons. It was only after they innersphere pilots started jumping into their rear did they start using them.
NeverSayNever
09/13/15 07:05 PM
80.187.113.89

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Quote:

Without any design flaws / quirks in the official Mech designs there would be very little left to complain / **** / moan, errr, sorry, debate, errr, sorry, discuss about...





"Subject Poster Views Replies Last post
Published mech designs that you just have to ask why? DavidG 746 36 09/11/15 09:15 PM
by ghostrider "


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