Karagin
01/14/02 11:42 PM
63.173.170.74
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Okay let's here opinions and comments on this question:
Are Targeting Computer to easy to abuse as far as game balance goes? Or are they just plain munchkin items?
Let's here your ideas on this, please keep it friendly...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
01/15/02 12:17 AM
209.202.47.12
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I think it depends on the designer and the person controlling the 'Mech. In any event, I think the to-hit modifier is reasonable, especially on lighter 'Mechs where even 1 ton devoted to the TC can be significant. However, I can have a problem with aimed shots. A "normal" 'Mech with the TC as an afterthought taking advantage of an opportunity to blow off a limb or make a kill? Fine. A 'Mech sepcifically DESIGNED to deliver multiple aimed shots to the back of an unsuspecting assault 'Mech...Munchkin tactics, at least in a duel. I have less objection in a large battle, where a 'Mech exposes itself by running behind an enemy, but one on one, it can get pretty nasty.
IMHO, any rule that allows a 50-ton 'Mech to take out a 100-tonner without breaking a sweat by virtue of winning the initiative roll twice is a loophole waiting to be exploited.
NOTE: A 50-ton Clan 'Mech (no MASC) can move 7,11 and carry 16 ER Small Lasers and a TC, and quite heavy armor. Ugly!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/15/02 01:20 AM
63.173.170.212
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I hate to break it to you but the Battle Value system has it's own set of loopholes and flaws...let's leave it out of this since not all the players use it to build up their forces for a battle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
01/15/02 02:08 AM
137.172.211.9
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The BV of Heavy Lasers are very small so the increase is hardly noticed for such items. This can be shown in the Dasher H being an exceedingly cheap 485 bv even though it can do 54 damage in one round and only suffer a -1 to movement modifier for the next for such a massive output. The Dasher D using more expensive BV energy weapons with a smaller output (only 35 , 37 including the flamer) but longer range is almost 3 times the value yet both have targetting computers.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
01/15/02 02:46 AM
137.172.211.9
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But you used BV for your arguments? In BV tc-pulse combos are very expensive unless some other 'broken' element is used in conjunction with this to bring the BV down (such as having cheap light-weight Heavy Lasers to create a heat problem thus dropping the BV ratio).
Look at the BVs of the Viper and Goshawk ... they are not cheap comparable to the Daishi Prime.
Greyslayer
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Tron
01/15/02 04:14 PM
209.246.80.176
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With the IS TC's are well balanced. Even if it was weapon tonnage divded by 5 instead of 4, TCs can't be abused even with pulse lasers.
When it comes to the clans TC's are just a little on the over unbalancing side. Any mech with a UAC20 with a speed of 5/8+MASC or greater, decent armor and a TC could litterally walk over an entire IS lance or put a serious amount of hurt on a clan star by itself.
Pulse lasers, ersmalls and heavy lasers have already been addressed.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Bob_Richter
01/15/02 06:33 PM
134.121.247.162
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Actually, Pulse Lasers are ridiculously cheap for what they can do.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
01/15/02 06:43 PM
209.202.47.12
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From what I've seen of the BV system, range is a MAJOR factor, so the pathetic range of the IS pulse lasers would explain their low BV. They are very effective weapons, provided you are close enough to use them. LRMs don't have that problem.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/16/02 03:10 PM
63.173.170.144
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IF you missed the points below BV is NOT balanced and has loopholes that can be used to allow one side to gain an advantage over the other...so as I was told recently TRY AGAIN, THANKS FOR PLAYING.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 08:01 PM
134.121.247.162
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Bur I was talking about CLAN Pulse Lasers.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 08:02 PM
134.121.247.162
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Of course BV has loopholes.
Targeting Computers aren't one of them. Targeting Computers are well balanced under BV.
It's Flamers that aren't.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
01/16/02 08:03 PM
209.202.47.12
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Ah, i c...but then, I never build Clan 'Mechs, so what do I know about Clan weapons and BV :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/16/02 08:13 PM
63.173.170.31
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Ok great, I could care less about BV, the topic is about Targetting Computer, please stay on the topic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 08:30 PM
134.121.247.162
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I *WAS* on-topic. You're the one who keeps straying into BV not being balanced.
I don't see any reason to declare the TarComp unbalanced.
Unrealistic, yes, but not unbalanced.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/16/02 09:09 PM
63.173.170.50
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Thank you for your opinion and your opinion who is straying here.
So let's get back to the main topic and leave BV out of the picture.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 10:27 PM
134.121.247.162
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I did.
But again, you can't seem to read.
*sigh*
oh well.
The topic in this case seems to be "Targeting Computers are Munch because Karagin says so."
I vehemently disagree. Targeting Computers are fair and balanced. (if unrealistic.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/16/02 10:54 PM
63.173.170.50
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You know Bob you go out of your way to start an arguement.
I NEVER SAID THEY WERE MUNCHY JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO. YOU NEED TO LEARN TO READ. THE TOPIC IS ABOUT TARGETTING COMPUTER, NOT BV, IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU OR IS IT NEED TO BE SPOON FEED TO YOU?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/16/02 11:38 PM
63.173.170.50
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The problem is that the munchkins abuse them, if they are so balanced then why aren't they on every mech in the game?
If they are so balanced and don't cause one side to gain such an advantage over the other, then how come they are not standard items on all mechs both Clan and Inner Sphere?
Let's see you get a general -1 to the hit numbers or you can for go that and take an aimed shot with the aid of the computer, to location on a mech or vehicle, allowing all the weapons tied into the computer to hit that one spot and all you suffer is a +3...which is added in, but can be reduced since most folks don't have 4 gunnerys.
So tell me again how balanced these are? They work with pulse lasers to become something that no one in their right mind would want to encounter. And given how it always seem to be the player (munchkin) who just happens to have a 2 gunnery or better, in a machine that just happens to have at the least Clan tech on it and this same player goes around targetting center torsos...so where is the balance there?
A balance item, doesn't allow the player to gain a lot be over use, the Medium Laser is a good example of this, it balanced and when doubled up or used in larger numbers it still stays balanced because of the heat build up...I don't see the TC begin bothered by anything in LEVEL 2 play. I don't see ECM jamming it and it can work with C3 Systems...wow...now we are really showing how balanced this thing is.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 01:57 AM
63.173.170.51
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Sorry, but the TC is not balanced, with it's advantages it give up too many things to be a balanced item.
So far you have not shown HOW it's balance...you have not countered anything I have said.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:27 AM
134.121.247.162
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>>>The problem is that the munchkins abuse them, if they are so balanced then why aren't they on every mech in the game? <<<
If they were UNBALANCED, you'd be more likely to find them on every 'Mech in the game. Take Medium Lasers, for instance. That you don't (even when munchkins are the only ones at the table) suggests they ARE balanced.
>>>If they are so balanced and don't cause one side to gain such an advantage over the other, then how come they are not standard items on all mechs both
Clan and Inner Sphere? <<<
Why would they be?
This equates balance with proliferation, a logically indefensible position.
>>>Let's see you get a general -1 to the hit numbers or you can for go that and take an aimed shot with the aid of the computer, to location on a mech or
vehicle, allowing all the weapons tied into the computer to hit that one spot and all you suffer is a +3...which is added in, but can be reduced since most
folks don't have 4 gunnerys. <<<
Let's see. They weigh ONE METRIC TON for every FIVE TONS of weapons they work with. That's a pretty hefty point of balance.
Totally unrealistic. But balanced.
>>>They work with pulse lasers to become something that no one in their right mind would want to encounter. <<<
That is, however, the fault of the Pulse Lasers, not the TarComp. You ask me if Clan Pulse Lasers are unbalanced, and the answer is: HELL YES!
But, I repeat again, the TarComp is balanced.
>>>the Medium Laser is a good example of this, it balanced and when doubled up or used in
larger numbers it still stays balanced because of the heat build up...<<<
Actually, the Medium Laser is a frighteningly good example of what is UNBALANCED. Something is unbalanced, a friend of mine once noted, when there's NO REASON whatsoever to replace it woith something else. To do what it does, the Medium Laser should have about twice its present mass requirement. Thus why you will find it on just about every 'Mech in creation.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:28 AM
134.121.247.162
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You haven't said anything to the point.
Except you keep repeating "It's unbalanced."
Which apparently we are to take as the final word on the subject.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:30 AM
63.173.170.51
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You missed the whole point again Bob, I asked for opinions, YOU seem to think that if we don't take your's as the final word it is grounds for an arguement.
Try again, thanks for playing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:33 AM
134.121.247.162
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Dammit, Karagin, READ MY BLOODY POST!
That ought to be a requirement for posting here.
And you're the one trying to get everyone to accept your opinion.
Any replies to this message will recieve no response.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:36 AM
63.173.170.51
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Actually no I am not trying to get anyone to take my opinion as fact, that is how you are going about things. Read the original posting again...I ASKED FOR OPINIONS AND I ASKED FOR IT TO BE KEPT FRIENDLY, so far you have done nothing but attack me over the fact that I haven't bought into your golden word that they are accord to you balanced. And when I asked you leave BV out of it you try to tell me I was the one who brought it up. Sorry read things again.
If anyone needs to read the posting it is you, my friend. Then maybe we would have all of these arguements if you would stop and let others have a different opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:40 AM
134.121.247.162
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I gave you my opinion and you jumped down my throat. Practice what you preach, Karagin.
I have not attacked you. Not once.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:44 AM
63.173.170.51
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I did not jump down your throat, I asked you to leave BV out of it and you went off from there. So how about you stop rewritting events and learn to live with your mistakes...and that others have opinions that differ from yours.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:44 AM
134.121.247.162
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I must apologise.
To everyone.
Myself included.
I have broken my resolution to stop trying to beat sense into Karagin (since I know it won't work.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:50 AM
63.173.170.51
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Right and who is beating it in to you?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 03:13 AM
63.173.170.51
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I have backed up my opinion it's unbalance, I pointed out the use with the Pulse Lasers, the ability to target a single location and have the weapons linked into the computer all hit that area.
What else do you want?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 03:18 AM
134.121.247.162
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Those are its abilities, not proof of imbalance. What is it that makes those abilities unbalanced when compared to its disabilities.
If there were no Clan Pulse Lasers (which I admit are unbalanced,) would it STILL be unbalanced?
No? then isn't it the Pulse Lasers (which ARE unbalanced) that are unbalanced?
Or maybe it's the combination of the two, not either one, that creates the imbalance.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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