Karagin
01/17/02 03:22 AM
63.173.170.51
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So you are saying in your opinion the TC is only munchy when it is used that way?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
01/17/02 06:33 AM
172.135.89.75
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I REALLY hate to bring this up because I don't want to cause anymore hostilitiies... but I read all the posts at once due to not being online since yesterday morning, So I feel I may have a good 3rd person view...
Karagin.... you DID ask for opinions, and Bob simply gave his, that BV balances out the TC. and from there you proceded to slam his every post and read WAY to into every word and drew meanings that were not implied... Please read through this thread again but instead of taking it as a personal attack, think of the two posters as two people you do not know... Don't take it at all personnally... Its about the TC remember not who is right & who is wrong...
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Karagin
01/17/02 03:19 PM
63.173.170.100
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Nope. Sorry if you want to do that start your own topic, this one is about TCs NOT BV.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 04:29 PM
63.173.170.100
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Not in this thread, the topic is not about BV.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
01/17/02 05:04 PM
24.44.238.62
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The topic is Targeting Computers, and whether or not they're balanced.
Which, of course, necessitates discussion of the various means by which they are (or are not) balanced.
Tonnage
Critical Slots
BV
Cost
Restricted acces
etc.
So maybe you figure we shouldn't talk about a TC's tonnage requirements?
Because, of course, the topic of this thread isn't tonnage.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
01/17/02 05:25 PM
63.173.170.207
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While that may be true, the system is flawwed, so it doesn't work as it is suppose to, so it in it's self pushes it out of the discussion since talking about won't help the matter at hand.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 05:26 PM
63.173.170.207
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Fine talk about it all, and as we have seen the main questions DON'T get answered and the topic spirals off to other things, so forgive me if I wanted to keep things on topic AND not going of in to the flaws of the BV system.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 06:41 PM
63.173.170.75
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Relevant would be to stay on topic, which was IS the TC to easy to abuse by which it upsets game balance and is it munchy.
NO where did I ask for discussion on the merits of BV or anytihng like that. I asked for folks take on the questions, and up until a certain person added their two cents into the discussion things were going well, after that it went down hill.
IF asking someone to stay on topic and stop trying to control the thread is wrong then tell what is right.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
01/17/02 07:00 PM
24.44.238.62
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In reply to:
NO where did I ask for discussion on the merits of BV or anytihng like that
And indeed you did not get it until you yourself addressed this issue:
In the 3rd post in this topic, Psychopompous stated that the Targeting Computer is balanced (via BV, a system used to balance battles). He did not make any mention of whether he felt BV is a good system; he simply stated that a targeting computer won't "tip the balance in a BV-balanced fight."
You, in your response (4th post in topic!), stated: "I hate to break it to you but the Battle Value system has it's own set of loopholes and flaws". Psychopompous did not address this point in his previous post, and you, who claim to not want this topic to degenerate into a discussion of BV, began the degeneration!
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
01/17/02 07:11 PM
63.173.170.75
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Wrong, I stated my opinion on the matter and let it go, how did that turn into what happen? Nice of you NOT to look at the other post like Bob's or Bansee's where they dragg the BV back into thing.
Right it's all my fault ok sure right k...if you say so.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 08:33 PM
134.121.247.162
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There seems to be some confusion over what I was trying to say.
I admit my statement was ambiguous.
Medium Lasers are unbalanced, and thus you will find them on almost every 'Mech, especially when MunchTime rolls around.
Targeting Computers, as I was trying to point out, are another deal entirely.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 08:36 PM
134.121.247.162
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Expecting Karagin to listen to reason is rather like expecting a Bear to sing soprano and dance ballet.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 08:41 PM
63.173.170.32
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Actually go over to the Design Board and you will see a TC mounting 90 tonner that I did to prove a point...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
01/18/02 06:28 AM
172.173.192.240
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well atleast its happened in the past.... I mean a bear dancing Ballet... :)
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Korbel
01/18/02 06:36 AM
172.173.192.240
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Question... and please answer it instead of skirting the issue again.
Why do you feel that BV does NOT balance out the advantages of TC's?
from your dislike of BV, am I to assume you do not use BV as a factor in generating forces? If so, what factors DO you use in said generation? Tonnage? Cost? number of units? so we may be better able to see your point of view, and possibly address other flaws and unbalances of said generation technics.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:50 AM
63.173.170.131
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I feel it is not balance, when it has a single star taking on a company of IS mechs of mixed weight, and the odds favor the Clan mechs winning even though they are out number.
And yes I have fought a battle like the above and even using good tactics and having vetarns pilots we (IS side) got our heads handed to us, and the sad part was on the Clan side was a young kid who had played maybe 6 other times total.
If I have to pick what balances out the forces, I look at the terrain, the objectives and then I think what would each commander do with his forces, then I sit down and pick the mech based on the idea that a good commander is going have mix of forces, like a recon group, support group etc...then I pick the mechs that fit into those groups. Normally trying to keep a total tonnage limit in mind, but not holding to that since in real life or game terms one side is going to out weigh the other. Normal this works out quite well and no one who has played in the battles I have setup has complained at all about the forces.
Though every time BV is used, I have heard NOTHING BUT complaints from BOTH sides.
Does this help?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 10:52 AM
63.173.170.48
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The abilty to target one location and bring to bear ALL of the weapons linked to the that single computer on to targeted location. That and NOTHING in Level 2 play can jam or interfear with the TC.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 02:14 PM
63.173.170.183
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Where can I find this Awesome IIC?
I stated my take on the computers, as written their advantages, -1 to hit FOR ALL DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ON THE MECH, the ability to target a location have those same weapons ALL pound it and the fact that NOTHING IN LEVEL TWO PLAY CAN INTERFERE WITH IT, put's into the relam of mucnhkin land.
It's only draw back is it get's bigger in size and weight as you add weapons...that doesn't balance it out at all.
Sorry but to me it's munchy and easilly abuses by those that want to power game or must win at all cost players, aka Munchkins.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
01/18/02 02:20 PM
172.136.76.10
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Yes and I agree with you... Using strictly BV does have quite a disadvantage over campaign style play. before anyone complaigns I am using the term loosly to describe exactly what Karagin has stated... Forming a battleplan from looking at the terrain, knowledge of a mission, or somewhat of a real-world basis of forces instead of calculating out the Max BV and dividing into your force...
you may want to try multiple criteria for generating forces... or simply play with people you know are not going to field such munchkin mechs. but TC's do have their place in BTech I still feel they are well balanced. It is Pulse lasers I have a problem with...
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:06 PM
63.173.170.164
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And if you don't want to stay on topic then don't reply to them...works both ways.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:07 PM
63.173.170.164
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No kidding, really never knew, thanks for point out the obvious...wow where would be with your guiding hand to show us the light?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:13 PM
63.173.170.164
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I haven't said anyone is wrong, I said I don't agree with their take on it and that they need to try harder on selling the idea that the TC is NOT a munchy item.
Funny thing about this I have posted the same question on two other boards and NOT ONCE has anyone acted like you and Bob, NOR as anyone taken cheap shots anyone when they have disagree or flat out didn't like the poster's opinion...maybe some of you should stop thinking your opinion is the finial say.
You keep telling me, that I don't listen, and I shouldn't post thing if I have made my mind up already about the topic, yet everytime you and Bob and couple of others are quick to tell me I am wrong and IN YOUR OPINION I SHOULD BE LISTENING ONLY TO YOU OPINIONS.
Maybe it's time for you folks to wise up and listen to your own comments, but no you won't do that, it's easier to attack belittle me then it is to admit you are doing the same thing you are bitiching about me doing.
Really does amaze me how some of you can go so far to get things out of hand just because you can't convince someone to take your line of thinking and make it theirs...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:14 PM
63.173.170.164
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Right and you are fooling everyone in to thinking you know what you are talking about because you say so?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:34 PM
63.173.170.164
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If you say, since you are forcing your ideas and opinions on to us...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:37 PM
63.173.170.164
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IT is off topics since it doesn't give any other reason then what the books says and since we all know the way FASA does it has problems it should be obvious that cover that ground was NOT staying on topic...I forgot, one needs spell and draw things out for some around here...so do you want it done up like Picture Page or StayBright Light Set? Or should I break out the building blocks?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:39 PM
63.173.170.164
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Right if you say so, I think it's more of a maturaity level, they can have conversation and not have a pissing match over things. For some that is not possible since they think they are a big fish in a small pond...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:10 PM
63.173.170.84
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And no one else is not showing the same lack of respect for my opinion?
I said I didn't want BV discussed because as I told Psycho it is flaw on it's own. Where is that wrong? How is wrong to ask some to not stray off topic and to please stay on topic?
All I have seen is two people comment, and then take everything I have said and turn it around to make it look like I am attack them, go back and read everything again...
Then see if you don't see thing differently or is it Bob and Bansee are always right and must apeased?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:12 PM
63.173.170.84
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Are you going to add anything to the topic about Targeting Computers or are you just going defend Bob and Bansee?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:19 PM
63.173.170.84
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And when the subject of BV was already covered and answered in the first couple of posting to thread, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN clear that it was dead matter and not part of the discussion.
So are you done defending the actions of those two or are you still bent on laying the blame on me?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:20 PM
63.173.170.84
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No sorry it wasn't me...nice try, I asked for them to stay on topic and they went off...get the facts straight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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