Karagin
01/14/02 11:42 PM
63.173.170.74
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Okay let's here opinions and comments on this question:
Are Targeting Computer to easy to abuse as far as game balance goes? Or are they just plain munchkin items?
Let's here your ideas on this, please keep it friendly...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
01/15/02 12:17 AM
209.202.47.12
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I think it depends on the designer and the person controlling the 'Mech. In any event, I think the to-hit modifier is reasonable, especially on lighter 'Mechs where even 1 ton devoted to the TC can be significant. However, I can have a problem with aimed shots. A "normal" 'Mech with the TC as an afterthought taking advantage of an opportunity to blow off a limb or make a kill? Fine. A 'Mech sepcifically DESIGNED to deliver multiple aimed shots to the back of an unsuspecting assault 'Mech...Munchkin tactics, at least in a duel. I have less objection in a large battle, where a 'Mech exposes itself by running behind an enemy, but one on one, it can get pretty nasty.
IMHO, any rule that allows a 50-ton 'Mech to take out a 100-tonner without breaking a sweat by virtue of winning the initiative roll twice is a loophole waiting to be exploited.
NOTE: A 50-ton Clan 'Mech (no MASC) can move 7,11 and carry 16 ER Small Lasers and a TC, and quite heavy armor. Ugly!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/15/02 01:20 AM
63.173.170.212
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I hate to break it to you but the Battle Value system has it's own set of loopholes and flaws...let's leave it out of this since not all the players use it to build up their forces for a battle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
01/15/02 02:08 AM
137.172.211.9
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The BV of Heavy Lasers are very small so the increase is hardly noticed for such items. This can be shown in the Dasher H being an exceedingly cheap 485 bv even though it can do 54 damage in one round and only suffer a -1 to movement modifier for the next for such a massive output. The Dasher D using more expensive BV energy weapons with a smaller output (only 35 , 37 including the flamer) but longer range is almost 3 times the value yet both have targetting computers.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
01/15/02 02:46 AM
137.172.211.9
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But you used BV for your arguments? In BV tc-pulse combos are very expensive unless some other 'broken' element is used in conjunction with this to bring the BV down (such as having cheap light-weight Heavy Lasers to create a heat problem thus dropping the BV ratio).
Look at the BVs of the Viper and Goshawk ... they are not cheap comparable to the Daishi Prime.
Greyslayer
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Tron
01/15/02 04:14 PM
209.246.80.176
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With the IS TC's are well balanced. Even if it was weapon tonnage divded by 5 instead of 4, TCs can't be abused even with pulse lasers.
When it comes to the clans TC's are just a little on the over unbalancing side. Any mech with a UAC20 with a speed of 5/8+MASC or greater, decent armor and a TC could litterally walk over an entire IS lance or put a serious amount of hurt on a clan star by itself.
Pulse lasers, ersmalls and heavy lasers have already been addressed.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Bob_Richter
01/15/02 06:33 PM
134.121.247.162
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Actually, Pulse Lasers are ridiculously cheap for what they can do.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
01/15/02 06:43 PM
209.202.47.12
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From what I've seen of the BV system, range is a MAJOR factor, so the pathetic range of the IS pulse lasers would explain their low BV. They are very effective weapons, provided you are close enough to use them. LRMs don't have that problem.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/16/02 03:10 PM
63.173.170.144
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IF you missed the points below BV is NOT balanced and has loopholes that can be used to allow one side to gain an advantage over the other...so as I was told recently TRY AGAIN, THANKS FOR PLAYING.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 08:01 PM
134.121.247.162
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Bur I was talking about CLAN Pulse Lasers.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 08:02 PM
134.121.247.162
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Of course BV has loopholes.
Targeting Computers aren't one of them. Targeting Computers are well balanced under BV.
It's Flamers that aren't.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
01/16/02 08:03 PM
209.202.47.12
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Ah, i c...but then, I never build Clan 'Mechs, so what do I know about Clan weapons and BV :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
01/16/02 08:13 PM
63.173.170.31
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Ok great, I could care less about BV, the topic is about Targetting Computer, please stay on the topic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 08:30 PM
134.121.247.162
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I *WAS* on-topic. You're the one who keeps straying into BV not being balanced.
I don't see any reason to declare the TarComp unbalanced.
Unrealistic, yes, but not unbalanced.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/16/02 09:09 PM
63.173.170.50
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Thank you for your opinion and your opinion who is straying here.
So let's get back to the main topic and leave BV out of the picture.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/16/02 10:27 PM
134.121.247.162
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I did.
But again, you can't seem to read.
*sigh*
oh well.
The topic in this case seems to be "Targeting Computers are Munch because Karagin says so."
I vehemently disagree. Targeting Computers are fair and balanced. (if unrealistic.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/16/02 10:54 PM
63.173.170.50
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You know Bob you go out of your way to start an arguement.
I NEVER SAID THEY WERE MUNCHY JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO. YOU NEED TO LEARN TO READ. THE TOPIC IS ABOUT TARGETTING COMPUTER, NOT BV, IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU OR IS IT NEED TO BE SPOON FEED TO YOU?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/16/02 11:38 PM
63.173.170.50
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The problem is that the munchkins abuse them, if they are so balanced then why aren't they on every mech in the game?
If they are so balanced and don't cause one side to gain such an advantage over the other, then how come they are not standard items on all mechs both Clan and Inner Sphere?
Let's see you get a general -1 to the hit numbers or you can for go that and take an aimed shot with the aid of the computer, to location on a mech or vehicle, allowing all the weapons tied into the computer to hit that one spot and all you suffer is a +3...which is added in, but can be reduced since most folks don't have 4 gunnerys.
So tell me again how balanced these are? They work with pulse lasers to become something that no one in their right mind would want to encounter. And given how it always seem to be the player (munchkin) who just happens to have a 2 gunnery or better, in a machine that just happens to have at the least Clan tech on it and this same player goes around targetting center torsos...so where is the balance there?
A balance item, doesn't allow the player to gain a lot be over use, the Medium Laser is a good example of this, it balanced and when doubled up or used in larger numbers it still stays balanced because of the heat build up...I don't see the TC begin bothered by anything in LEVEL 2 play. I don't see ECM jamming it and it can work with C3 Systems...wow...now we are really showing how balanced this thing is.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 01:57 AM
63.173.170.51
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Sorry, but the TC is not balanced, with it's advantages it give up too many things to be a balanced item.
So far you have not shown HOW it's balance...you have not countered anything I have said.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:27 AM
134.121.247.162
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>>>The problem is that the munchkins abuse them, if they are so balanced then why aren't they on every mech in the game? <<<
If they were UNBALANCED, you'd be more likely to find them on every 'Mech in the game. Take Medium Lasers, for instance. That you don't (even when munchkins are the only ones at the table) suggests they ARE balanced.
>>>If they are so balanced and don't cause one side to gain such an advantage over the other, then how come they are not standard items on all mechs both
Clan and Inner Sphere? <<<
Why would they be?
This equates balance with proliferation, a logically indefensible position.
>>>Let's see you get a general -1 to the hit numbers or you can for go that and take an aimed shot with the aid of the computer, to location on a mech or
vehicle, allowing all the weapons tied into the computer to hit that one spot and all you suffer is a +3...which is added in, but can be reduced since most
folks don't have 4 gunnerys. <<<
Let's see. They weigh ONE METRIC TON for every FIVE TONS of weapons they work with. That's a pretty hefty point of balance.
Totally unrealistic. But balanced.
>>>They work with pulse lasers to become something that no one in their right mind would want to encounter. <<<
That is, however, the fault of the Pulse Lasers, not the TarComp. You ask me if Clan Pulse Lasers are unbalanced, and the answer is: HELL YES!
But, I repeat again, the TarComp is balanced.
>>>the Medium Laser is a good example of this, it balanced and when doubled up or used in
larger numbers it still stays balanced because of the heat build up...<<<
Actually, the Medium Laser is a frighteningly good example of what is UNBALANCED. Something is unbalanced, a friend of mine once noted, when there's NO REASON whatsoever to replace it woith something else. To do what it does, the Medium Laser should have about twice its present mass requirement. Thus why you will find it on just about every 'Mech in creation.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:28 AM
134.121.247.162
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You haven't said anything to the point.
Except you keep repeating "It's unbalanced."
Which apparently we are to take as the final word on the subject.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:30 AM
63.173.170.51
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You missed the whole point again Bob, I asked for opinions, YOU seem to think that if we don't take your's as the final word it is grounds for an arguement.
Try again, thanks for playing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:33 AM
134.121.247.162
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Dammit, Karagin, READ MY BLOODY POST!
That ought to be a requirement for posting here.
And you're the one trying to get everyone to accept your opinion.
Any replies to this message will recieve no response.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:36 AM
63.173.170.51
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Actually no I am not trying to get anyone to take my opinion as fact, that is how you are going about things. Read the original posting again...I ASKED FOR OPINIONS AND I ASKED FOR IT TO BE KEPT FRIENDLY, so far you have done nothing but attack me over the fact that I haven't bought into your golden word that they are accord to you balanced. And when I asked you leave BV out of it you try to tell me I was the one who brought it up. Sorry read things again.
If anyone needs to read the posting it is you, my friend. Then maybe we would have all of these arguements if you would stop and let others have a different opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:40 AM
134.121.247.162
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I gave you my opinion and you jumped down my throat. Practice what you preach, Karagin.
I have not attacked you. Not once.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:44 AM
63.173.170.51
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I did not jump down your throat, I asked you to leave BV out of it and you went off from there. So how about you stop rewritting events and learn to live with your mistakes...and that others have opinions that differ from yours.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 02:44 AM
134.121.247.162
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I must apologise.
To everyone.
Myself included.
I have broken my resolution to stop trying to beat sense into Karagin (since I know it won't work.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 02:50 AM
63.173.170.51
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Right and who is beating it in to you?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 03:13 AM
63.173.170.51
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I have backed up my opinion it's unbalance, I pointed out the use with the Pulse Lasers, the ability to target a single location and have the weapons linked into the computer all hit that area.
What else do you want?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 03:18 AM
134.121.247.162
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Those are its abilities, not proof of imbalance. What is it that makes those abilities unbalanced when compared to its disabilities.
If there were no Clan Pulse Lasers (which I admit are unbalanced,) would it STILL be unbalanced?
No? then isn't it the Pulse Lasers (which ARE unbalanced) that are unbalanced?
Or maybe it's the combination of the two, not either one, that creates the imbalance.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 03:22 AM
63.173.170.51
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So you are saying in your opinion the TC is only munchy when it is used that way?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
01/17/02 06:33 AM
172.135.89.75
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I REALLY hate to bring this up because I don't want to cause anymore hostilitiies... but I read all the posts at once due to not being online since yesterday morning, So I feel I may have a good 3rd person view...
Karagin.... you DID ask for opinions, and Bob simply gave his, that BV balances out the TC. and from there you proceded to slam his every post and read WAY to into every word and drew meanings that were not implied... Please read through this thread again but instead of taking it as a personal attack, think of the two posters as two people you do not know... Don't take it at all personnally... Its about the TC remember not who is right & who is wrong...
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Karagin
01/17/02 03:19 PM
63.173.170.100
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Nope. Sorry if you want to do that start your own topic, this one is about TCs NOT BV.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 04:29 PM
63.173.170.100
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Not in this thread, the topic is not about BV.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
01/17/02 05:04 PM
24.44.238.62
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The topic is Targeting Computers, and whether or not they're balanced.
Which, of course, necessitates discussion of the various means by which they are (or are not) balanced.
Tonnage
Critical Slots
BV
Cost
Restricted acces
etc.
So maybe you figure we shouldn't talk about a TC's tonnage requirements?
Because, of course, the topic of this thread isn't tonnage.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
01/17/02 05:25 PM
63.173.170.207
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While that may be true, the system is flawwed, so it doesn't work as it is suppose to, so it in it's self pushes it out of the discussion since talking about won't help the matter at hand.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 05:26 PM
63.173.170.207
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Fine talk about it all, and as we have seen the main questions DON'T get answered and the topic spirals off to other things, so forgive me if I wanted to keep things on topic AND not going of in to the flaws of the BV system.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/17/02 06:41 PM
63.173.170.75
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Relevant would be to stay on topic, which was IS the TC to easy to abuse by which it upsets game balance and is it munchy.
NO where did I ask for discussion on the merits of BV or anytihng like that. I asked for folks take on the questions, and up until a certain person added their two cents into the discussion things were going well, after that it went down hill.
IF asking someone to stay on topic and stop trying to control the thread is wrong then tell what is right.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
01/17/02 07:00 PM
24.44.238.62
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In reply to:
NO where did I ask for discussion on the merits of BV or anytihng like that
And indeed you did not get it until you yourself addressed this issue:
In the 3rd post in this topic, Psychopompous stated that the Targeting Computer is balanced (via BV, a system used to balance battles). He did not make any mention of whether he felt BV is a good system; he simply stated that a targeting computer won't "tip the balance in a BV-balanced fight."
You, in your response (4th post in topic!), stated: "I hate to break it to you but the Battle Value system has it's own set of loopholes and flaws". Psychopompous did not address this point in his previous post, and you, who claim to not want this topic to degenerate into a discussion of BV, began the degeneration!
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
01/17/02 07:11 PM
63.173.170.75
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Wrong, I stated my opinion on the matter and let it go, how did that turn into what happen? Nice of you NOT to look at the other post like Bob's or Bansee's where they dragg the BV back into thing.
Right it's all my fault ok sure right k...if you say so.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 08:33 PM
134.121.247.162
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There seems to be some confusion over what I was trying to say.
I admit my statement was ambiguous.
Medium Lasers are unbalanced, and thus you will find them on almost every 'Mech, especially when MunchTime rolls around.
Targeting Computers, as I was trying to point out, are another deal entirely.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/17/02 08:36 PM
134.121.247.162
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Expecting Karagin to listen to reason is rather like expecting a Bear to sing soprano and dance ballet.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/17/02 08:41 PM
63.173.170.32
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Actually go over to the Design Board and you will see a TC mounting 90 tonner that I did to prove a point...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
01/18/02 06:28 AM
172.173.192.240
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well atleast its happened in the past.... I mean a bear dancing Ballet... :)
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Korbel
01/18/02 06:36 AM
172.173.192.240
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Question... and please answer it instead of skirting the issue again.
Why do you feel that BV does NOT balance out the advantages of TC's?
from your dislike of BV, am I to assume you do not use BV as a factor in generating forces? If so, what factors DO you use in said generation? Tonnage? Cost? number of units? so we may be better able to see your point of view, and possibly address other flaws and unbalances of said generation technics.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:50 AM
63.173.170.131
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I feel it is not balance, when it has a single star taking on a company of IS mechs of mixed weight, and the odds favor the Clan mechs winning even though they are out number.
And yes I have fought a battle like the above and even using good tactics and having vetarns pilots we (IS side) got our heads handed to us, and the sad part was on the Clan side was a young kid who had played maybe 6 other times total.
If I have to pick what balances out the forces, I look at the terrain, the objectives and then I think what would each commander do with his forces, then I sit down and pick the mech based on the idea that a good commander is going have mix of forces, like a recon group, support group etc...then I pick the mechs that fit into those groups. Normally trying to keep a total tonnage limit in mind, but not holding to that since in real life or game terms one side is going to out weigh the other. Normal this works out quite well and no one who has played in the battles I have setup has complained at all about the forces.
Though every time BV is used, I have heard NOTHING BUT complaints from BOTH sides.
Does this help?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 10:52 AM
63.173.170.48
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The abilty to target one location and bring to bear ALL of the weapons linked to the that single computer on to targeted location. That and NOTHING in Level 2 play can jam or interfear with the TC.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 02:14 PM
63.173.170.183
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Where can I find this Awesome IIC?
I stated my take on the computers, as written their advantages, -1 to hit FOR ALL DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ON THE MECH, the ability to target a location have those same weapons ALL pound it and the fact that NOTHING IN LEVEL TWO PLAY CAN INTERFERE WITH IT, put's into the relam of mucnhkin land.
It's only draw back is it get's bigger in size and weight as you add weapons...that doesn't balance it out at all.
Sorry but to me it's munchy and easilly abuses by those that want to power game or must win at all cost players, aka Munchkins.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
01/18/02 02:20 PM
172.136.76.10
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Yes and I agree with you... Using strictly BV does have quite a disadvantage over campaign style play. before anyone complaigns I am using the term loosly to describe exactly what Karagin has stated... Forming a battleplan from looking at the terrain, knowledge of a mission, or somewhat of a real-world basis of forces instead of calculating out the Max BV and dividing into your force...
you may want to try multiple criteria for generating forces... or simply play with people you know are not going to field such munchkin mechs. but TC's do have their place in BTech I still feel they are well balanced. It is Pulse lasers I have a problem with...
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:06 PM
63.173.170.164
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And if you don't want to stay on topic then don't reply to them...works both ways.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:07 PM
63.173.170.164
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No kidding, really never knew, thanks for point out the obvious...wow where would be with your guiding hand to show us the light?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:13 PM
63.173.170.164
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I haven't said anyone is wrong, I said I don't agree with their take on it and that they need to try harder on selling the idea that the TC is NOT a munchy item.
Funny thing about this I have posted the same question on two other boards and NOT ONCE has anyone acted like you and Bob, NOR as anyone taken cheap shots anyone when they have disagree or flat out didn't like the poster's opinion...maybe some of you should stop thinking your opinion is the finial say.
You keep telling me, that I don't listen, and I shouldn't post thing if I have made my mind up already about the topic, yet everytime you and Bob and couple of others are quick to tell me I am wrong and IN YOUR OPINION I SHOULD BE LISTENING ONLY TO YOU OPINIONS.
Maybe it's time for you folks to wise up and listen to your own comments, but no you won't do that, it's easier to attack belittle me then it is to admit you are doing the same thing you are bitiching about me doing.
Really does amaze me how some of you can go so far to get things out of hand just because you can't convince someone to take your line of thinking and make it theirs...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:14 PM
63.173.170.164
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Right and you are fooling everyone in to thinking you know what you are talking about because you say so?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:34 PM
63.173.170.164
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If you say, since you are forcing your ideas and opinions on to us...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:37 PM
63.173.170.164
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IT is off topics since it doesn't give any other reason then what the books says and since we all know the way FASA does it has problems it should be obvious that cover that ground was NOT staying on topic...I forgot, one needs spell and draw things out for some around here...so do you want it done up like Picture Page or StayBright Light Set? Or should I break out the building blocks?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 04:39 PM
63.173.170.164
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Right if you say so, I think it's more of a maturaity level, they can have conversation and not have a pissing match over things. For some that is not possible since they think they are a big fish in a small pond...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:10 PM
63.173.170.84
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And no one else is not showing the same lack of respect for my opinion?
I said I didn't want BV discussed because as I told Psycho it is flaw on it's own. Where is that wrong? How is wrong to ask some to not stray off topic and to please stay on topic?
All I have seen is two people comment, and then take everything I have said and turn it around to make it look like I am attack them, go back and read everything again...
Then see if you don't see thing differently or is it Bob and Bansee are always right and must apeased?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:12 PM
63.173.170.84
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Are you going to add anything to the topic about Targeting Computers or are you just going defend Bob and Bansee?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:19 PM
63.173.170.84
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And when the subject of BV was already covered and answered in the first couple of posting to thread, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN clear that it was dead matter and not part of the discussion.
So are you done defending the actions of those two or are you still bent on laying the blame on me?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:20 PM
63.173.170.84
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No sorry it wasn't me...nice try, I asked for them to stay on topic and they went off...get the facts straight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 06:31 PM
63.173.170.84
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Why are so quick to defend them?
If asking them not to talk about something because I happen to feel it is not needed in the over all discussion is wrong? How so? It was clear that they were going to keep on saying BV is the answer to anything ubalancing in the game, and that is not true or correct.
So please tell me how my asking them to please come back on to the topic is wrong? You have yet to answer that. All you keep saying is it makes me seem or sound like I am full of myself...funny I thought asking was best way to KEEP the discussion on track and not sprial off into something else...gee...guess I was wrong.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/02 07:56 PM
63.173.170.185
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I think you summed it up nicely.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:22 PM
134.121.247.162
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yeah, but you ever hear one sing soprano?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:23 PM
134.121.247.162
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I LOVE how you refer to yourself in the plural, Karagin.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:27 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>I stated my take on the computers, as written their advantages, -1 to hit FOR ALL DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ON THE MECH, the ability to
target a location have those same weapons ALL pound it and the fact that NOTHING IN LEVEL TWO PLAY CAN INTERFERE WITH IT, put's
into the relam of mucnhkin land. <<<
Yeah. They do that.
But having an ability doesn't make something unbalanced.
>>>
It's only draw back is it get's bigger in size and weight as you add weapons...that doesn't balance it out at all. <<<
I think it does. It eats up crits and tons that could be used for more useful equipment.
>>>Sorry but to me it's munchy and easilly abuses by those that want to power game or must win at all cost players, aka Munchkins. <<<
Keep in mind, Karagin, you asked for our opinions. We aren't necessarily trying to convince you of them.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:31 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>I haven't said anyone is wrong, I said I don't agree with their take on it and that they need to try harder on selling the idea that the TC is NOT a munchy item. <<<
Actually, you have. Never mind. It's not important.
Karagin, I'd say you need to work harder on selling the idea that it IS a munchy item. I don't personally care about your opinion, it seems to be you who is trying to alter mine, and repeatedly stating your opinion is not the way to do this.
>>>Funny thing about this I have posted the same question on two other boards and NOT ONCE has anyone acted like you and Bob, NOR as
anyone taken cheap shots anyone when they have disagree or flat out didn't like the poster's opinion...maybe some of you should stop
thinking your opinion is the finial say. <<<
Which two boards are these? Care to post links so I can see for myself?
>>>You keep telling me, that I don't listen, and I shouldn't post thing if I have made my mind up already about the topic, yet everytime you and
Bob and couple of others are quick to tell me I am wrong and IN YOUR OPINION I SHOULD BE LISTENING ONLY TO YOU OPINIONS. <<<
No, Karagin, it's quite the other way around. You asked for our opinions, and then denounced us for having them. Honestly, if you can't deal with a little dissent, maybe you should leave potentially controversial topics alone.
>>>Maybe it's time for you folks to wise up and listen to your own comments, but no you won't do that, it's easier to attack belittle me then it
is to admit you are doing the same thing you are bitiching about me doing<<<
I would suggest that you take your own advice, Karagin.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/18/02 08:32 PM
63.173.170.185
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Actually you are trying to sell them to me, since everytime I don't agree or point out you are straying from the topic you come back with some assiane remark and go of on a tanget.
There is a difference between tell me you disagree and why and tell me I am wrong because I won't take your opinon as fact.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:32 PM
134.121.247.162
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Maturity level could certainly never be a consideration. After all, they let YOU in, don't they? :)
Where are these boards, Karagin?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:34 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>Actually you are trying to sell them to me, <<<
No I'm not.
>>>
There is a difference between tell me you disagree and why and tell me I am wrong because I won't take your opinon as fact. <<<
You say this, but you are apparently incapable of telling the difference.
Sad, that.
Oh well.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/18/02 08:36 PM
134.121.247.162
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No, Karagin. He was on-topic. He's right. He wins, you lose.
Sorry.
Thanks for playing.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/18/02 08:36 PM
63.173.170.185
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Thank you to those that gave opinons on this with any extra bits and pices attached. It was interesting reading what you wrote.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/19/02 12:02 AM
63.173.170.157
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Right so it's not an offical mech...I see...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
01/20/02 01:38 AM
194.251.240.107
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No, but there are several Clan Omnis you can equip with three
ER PPCs. So ask yourself if the tons spent on a TC are worth
the DHS you could have had? The TC forces you to leave out
other stuff, that`s a balancing factor in itself!
There are other things that disturb the balance more severely.
Double Heat Sinks for one :)
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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