Hellbringer
02/24/02 02:14 AM
192.195.234.26
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I like designing with level two tech more than designing with anything else. It seems that Level 2 gives a really good variety of things without being too munchy. What do you guys think?
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 03:04 AM
134.121.247.162
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Double Heat Sinks.
Double Heat Sinks.
Double Heat Sinks.
Clan Pulse Lasers.
Um. Level 2 is munchy.
Level 2 is VERY munchy.
Level 1 provides sufficient variety without being too munchy.
Viva la Level 1!
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Black_Phoenix
02/24/02 11:04 AM
207.252.105.153
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Munchy? That is what people call technology that they can't handle. I think Lvl. 2 tech is awesome. Nothing better then blasting your enemy in the head with a Gauss Rifle. 
History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.
-Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz
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KamikazeJohnson
02/24/02 01:34 PM
209.202.47.12
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I don't find level 2 muchy as long as I stick to IS...level 1 tends to create massive heat problems on anything over about 40 tons :-\ DHS makes those double-PPC designs truly feasable. Level 3, OTOH, is getting a little too complicated for my tastes.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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NathanKell
02/24/02 01:50 PM
24.44.238.62
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I like Level 1 since it was the last time the universe really fit...frex, you can't expect me to believe that Star League equipment is so often *less* effective than SW-era stuff...or that a stationary mech, with SL-era equipment, firing a laser, quite literally couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at the rifle range of 600m.
In 3025, this can be explained by the lack of computing (though weapon construction lines are still working, the computer / optics lines aren't...and we just ran out of widgets!).
In 2750 / 3050 there's no excuse.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
KamikazeJohnson
02/24/02 02:20 PM
209.202.47.12
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>>a stationary mech, with SL-era equipment, firing a laser, quite literally couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at the rifle range of 600m.<<
not to mention the range difference between a SL-era autocannon and the main gun on a WWII-era tank...IIRC, WWII tanks could fire over a mile...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Diablo
02/24/02 03:54 PM
206.186.185.6
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I personally like to use level 3 tech. just because I have all these little fancy toys to put on my StarEx designs.
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 04:33 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>>I don't find level 2 muchy as long as I stick to IS...<<<
Then you just haven't thought about it enough.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 04:34 PM
134.121.247.162
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Munchy is what people call technology that is WRONG and/or UNBALANCED.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 05:23 PM
137.172.211.9
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I will have to agree with Bob here. Unbalanced technology (such as double heat sinks) become unbalanced if certain situations exist. In the case of double heat sinks the fact that a mech's engine comes with 10 doubles at no cost of tonnage gives a unit a very nasty headstart, particularly if it is a 'energy-boat'. Solid weapons like the lvl1 Medium Laser become a handful if a unit can field 6 of them and run at no extra tonnage cost. Would this not make the Medium Laser munchy? Not really as there is a seriously debilitating problem of heat and range to the items, but combine this with a faster engine gathered from endo-steel that only costs criticals (no other detriment) and things like XL Engines (certainly not munchy but can be effective in the above example) then you have a very danagerous unit.
So why isn't the lvl1 version with 6 Medium Lasers so nasty? Simply because for the same 6 tons I can only field 4 and add two heat sinks and still overheat due to my movement type. In effect to get the same ability I would have to spend 16 tons (6 mediums and 10 heat sinks) to be comparable to the simple upgrade of double heat sinks (not to mention the extra speed from endo-steel and so on). In lvl 1 play HEAT actually means something. Machine Guns can actually mean something (since they do not generate heat). And having your head remain intact most of the time after a main gun hit was still a possibility.
Still it might be because I play campaigns more than some of you that I have these opinions. Just don't rely on the technology you use to purely win a battle, at least try to employ a little bit of tactics on the battlefield..... ;P.
You add some of the lvl3 movement and combat rules from max tech to a level 1 game and you have a almost totally new game. Level 1 technology is no longer stagnant in this situation plus combined with BETTER source material and evenly matched technology accross the board in the IS you have a pretty good gaming system.
Anyone can munch, but not everyone can play a balanced game well.
Greyslayer
PS So Bob you seem to be moving steadily further down the 'old guard' track to 3025 era gaming any comment on this?
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 05:53 PM
134.121.247.162
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"Moving toward"?
Hell, I've BEEN there for years.
You just haven't noticed.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/24/02 05:59 PM
209.202.47.12
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Without a doubt, DHS alone allows nearly any level 2 design kick a** over a level 1 design. However, quite often, DHS result in a heavy 'Mech having a severe shortage of critical space, especially if it employs ERPPCs or ER Large Lasers...It's very difficult to make a level 2 'Mech over 70 tons that can use ES or FF, due to crit shortages. True, all but the clumsiest designs are vastly superior (to a ridiculous degree) to level 1 designs, but there is considerable room for a skilled designer to show his skill...a poor IS2 design barely defeats its IS1 counterpart, but a good one can nearly match an average Clan design.
OTOH...I've seen a certain uniformity develop amongst my L1 designs, since a lot of the weapons simply aren't worthwhile...AC/2s and AC/5s are too heavy for the damage they do, PPCs and Large Lasers are too heavy and generate too much heat to be used in pairs (or else you look a lot like a Warhammer). SRM 2s are pointless, as are small lasers in most cases. AC/20s, between sheer size, heat output, and ammo consumption, are very difficult to mount on anything smaller than 80 tons and still be useful.
To be completely honest, I prefer playing with level 1 designs...all my favourite "official" designs are L1, but as far as designing, I find L2 allows far more...shall we say...creative freedom ;-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 06:07 PM
137.172.211.9
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Well except for the fact that you are a ardent Ghost Bear supporter.
What am I supposed to think on that?
Greyslayer
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Nightward
02/24/02 06:11 PM
132.234.1.13
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Some good points have been made, but it basically all comes down to how complicated a game you want to have. A quick and nast game will be a Level 2 one with lots of Pulse Lasers and targetring Computers, whereas Level 1 games will usually be long, grinding battles of attrition. Level 3 games tend to get bogged down with a multitide of rules available.
I have the most fun playing Level 1 because the equipment and BattleMech designs tend to even out luck (if only a little). Head hits will still cause problems, but weapons do comparatively little damage compared to 'Mech armour, meaning that the game will often be decieded by skill rather than luck. A good example of this was the time i kileld a Banshee (3S) in the first turn of the game, costing my opponent 1/2 of hios force. Steve then went on to totally smash me, because he is so damn good at the game.
This is, of course, all IMHO.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 06:15 PM
137.172.211.9
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This comes down to a question of designing vs playing for you then?
Designing is something you end up doing alot if you cannot either get the time or find the people to play against. It doesn't mean you have to field the design just look at it as a 'what if' scenario.
Grabbing stock mechs and using them has prevalently been those that play in a group regularly.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 06:21 PM
137.172.211.9
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You will be happy then that Steve is the Umpire this year at the convention then . I might also miss the Sunday if cricket is on. Still you might still draw me in the 3025 section of the competition again .
Greyslayer
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Nightward
02/24/02 06:22 PM
132.234.1.13
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Anybody can design a custom 'Mech that can wipe the floor with a Stock. But it takes a really good player (eg: you and Steve, and sometimes Col if he has Level 2 gear [my GOD! He lost every single Level 1 game and caned us all in Level 2...]) to take a stock and make it work.
Amongst friends, though, there's always a bit of competition to make a custom 'Mech that is the absolute pinnacle of 'Mech technology. And every time you think you've done it, FASA (or FanPro, now) come out with some new piece of gear that throws everything you thought you knew out the window. Designing is more of a mental excercise than anything else.
I'd rather use Stock 'Mechs because it cuts down a lot on arguments-some people design illegal 'Mechs without knowing it and then you get into a big fight about it. Not a problem if you have TDB or HM, but homebuilders can come unstuck...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 06:35 PM
137.172.211.9
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'and sometimes Col if he has Level 2 gear [my GOD! He lost every single Level 1 game and caned us all in Level 2.'.
Well he is Cappellan and he fielded a 3025 Davion force, I was away playing cricket that day of his victories so I have not seem him play to that level. Hopefully this time in the level 2 section there will not be so many damned Night Gyrs in it, though my Black Dragon Society army beat the snot out of them it is VERY boring to fight against 'another' Night Gyr every couple of rounds of competition.
Greyslayer
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KamikazeJohnson
02/24/02 06:36 PM
209.202.47.12
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I think most serious players prefer playing with stock designs (or official variants) because they fit into the established universe.. .i.e. better role-playing potential. Of course, all FASA campaigns use stock 'Mechs. The only way to justify using custom 'Mechs is in a stand-alone, throw-everything-into-the-octagon-and-kill-each-other fight with no "greater purpose." As such, they are reserved for special occasions :-)
I generaly design custom 'Mechs to prove I can do better than the official designs, but then rarely use them...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Edited by KamikazeJohnson (02/24/02 06:36 PM)
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 06:39 PM
137.172.211.9
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Yeah though even Nightward could possibly design a better than stock mech, a slim chance but possible *evil grin*
Greyslayer
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 06:52 PM
134.121.247.162
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I'm a Steiner too.
And, hey, I like the Ghost Bears but that doesn't mean I like Clantech. I'd be perfectly happy if they were right there with level 1 tech like the rest of the universe.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 06:55 PM
134.121.247.162
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Well, not really.
It's possible to have a more lethal game that's still balanced, and that's not level 2.
Level 3 CAN get a little bogged down, but a lot of the rules (and some equipment, such as X-Pulse Lasers and LACs) integrate with minimal fuss.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
02/24/02 07:08 PM
132.234.1.13
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That was a nasty game. Any word on Tonnage yet? If it's 170, I'm thinking Wolverine M, Phoenix Hawk D, Wolfhound, and Jenner. That should be fun
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
02/24/02 07:13 PM
132.234.1.13
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You should have seen the Level 1 day. Even I beat him (he killed my Locust and Wasp, but I beat him on the final turn by killing his Blackjack- with my Grand Dragon's final shot!)
The Level 2 day, though...that Men Shen/Jinggau combo was NOT nice.
Every 2nd person had Night Gyrs in the Melee. I will be going with the Trust Timber Wolf. Hopefully I can head-shoot you again this year . You'll have a Storm Crow, I trust?
The other thing...can Steve make this an aggregate tournament? I do mediocre in both forms, which wedges me into the middle ranks. But most others are really good with one or the other. If it was aggregate, maybe I could win a trophy or something (ah, but 'tis nice to dream). That old NedCon '97 Lucky Last trophy still has pride of place on my desk, but it would be nice to replace it with something...more respectable.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
02/24/02 07:14 PM
132.234.1.13
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Oho, eh?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
02/24/02 07:29 PM
137.172.211.9
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'You'll have a Storm Crow, I trust?'
You think I am that Predictable? I fielded a Thor E (I think the one with all the ATMs) in Sydney and ended up dieing as two Ryokens came after me even though they were closer to each other and pretty much avoided each other, I pummelled one with only my ER PPC and almost took Ned out with my only remaining weapon (being the ER PPC since I ran out of ammo) but alas no luck that time. Still I gave a good accounting of myself (something people in Night Gyrs and Mad Cats could not do ). I might go the Dasher H this year and hunt you down like Tony did the year before when he hammered one mech and killed another before his eventual demise .
'can Steve make this an aggregate tournament'
I have always been a fan of seeing who does best over a few days of competition, I know I would've been first or second in Sydney last year if that was in place. Maybe some small certificates for the top 3 or something for the weekend. Ultimately players who perform terribly in one tech and well in another do not rate a mention overall. I might see if Steve will be doing this later in the week.
Greyslayer.
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Nightward
02/24/02 08:21 PM
132.234.1.13
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If you can do that well with a crappy 'Mech like the Summoner, my hat is off to you.
The Storm Crow thing was because every year (except the first when you had a Night Gyr, I think) you have used the U-A/C-20 Storm Crow. I might go back to the Ice Ferret...that was pretty funny, when I solo killed Tiny's Dire Wolf .
As to the other, many thanks.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
02/24/02 08:46 PM
12.91.151.103
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My BT group uses customs almost exclusively, in pick-up games and planned fights. We rarely use stock mechs. Often, we pound out designs for the game while someone's setting up the board.
About the only time we go stock is when we're in a campaign.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
02/24/02 08:53 PM
132.234.1.13
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It's apples and oranges, really. If you enjoy using stocks, use them. If you enjoy using customs, use them. The only thing ios that most Stocks will be at a serious disadvantage in games using Customs. A skilled player can negate that, but still....
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
02/24/02 10:50 PM
134.121.247.162
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>>> A skilled player can negate that,<<<
Not if his opponent is equally skilled.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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