Bob_Richter
01/22/03 02:43 PM
4.35.174.250
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They're Level 3, which means you can't use them unless the other guy lets you. Whatever. That reads as "illegal" to me, but maybe I should say "Optional" instead. Would that make you happier?
>>>then groups like the Hounds and Dragoons are illegal if their use of retro-fitted machines <<<
They are, in level 2 play, unless it's a specific unit ability (I think one of the Ryuken Regiments gets an exception on this rule...maybe all of them. Too long since I read the FM. Even then, it's an OPTIONAL level 2 rule...)
>>>Why use them when there are better things to chose from? <<<
'Cause they're cheaper?
I dunno, why do folks use Inner Sphere AC/5s or AC/10s to this very day?
>>>So to sum up, the LRMs have NEVER had minimums because they are made better, and there was NEVER a typo or mistake on this.<<<
I disagree. I believe that the minimum range was inexplicably omitted from the table and then never corrected.
Prove me wrong. You've yet to do so.
And Inner Sphere launchers STILL can't use Clan LRMs. You can ask Randall about that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
01/22/03 02:45 PM
206.102.34.143
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Drop the condescending tone, kid.
Does not play well with others.
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 02:46 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Why would I put a 6 ton PPC on my mech, when I could put a 6 ton ERPPC? <<<
Cost. Heat. Freebirths don't Deserve Cool Weapons. Whatever reason.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 02:46 PM
4.35.174.250
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Eh, you first, kid.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/22/03 02:49 PM
68.21.149.206
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I did prove you wrong, sited the page from the TR3050 and as pointed out there never was an errata to change that so you have been proven WRONG, live with it.
The mechs are NOT illegal just because you feel they should be. Sorry but it's like me finding the whole WoB Jihad storyline to be a load crap and should be dropped, don't see it happening...
IS mechs can use CLAN Launchers and ammo...hence again they would NOT have a minimum range so the Archer with the uberClan missiles would have no minimum range.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/22/03 02:51 PM
68.21.149.206
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Face it Bob, you are wrong on the minimum range part and it's been proven to you repeatedly.
As Cadet pointed out if the need for the minimum range was omitted by mistake they would have corrected it either in the Compedium or via FASA's all time favorite errata sheets and guess what it never happen.
So how about excepting that you are wrong and move on...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cadet
01/22/03 02:54 PM
206.102.34.143
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Even better, what would the point be in having a weapon that is less bulky and swtill the same weight. There is a reason that only standard autocannons now have speciallized munitions. They had become obsolete when any autocannon could also be a LB-X.
What canon Battlemechs became illegal?
And your definition of a Clan Second Line mech should and should not be is not what is at issue. FASA said Clan secondline have Clan technology. Why manufacture more Star League designs when you have improved weapons. They were an intermediate stage between the regular 'Mech and the Clan Omni. They should be better than the obsolete Star League 'mechs. You put them in front line units, develop Omnis, and move the improved mechs to the rear and scrap the obsolete mechs.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
01/22/03 02:56 PM
68.21.149.206
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In reply to:
Bob wrote: That decision made a number of Canon Battlemech designs illegal
What mechs? Again you are misinformed, no mechs have been declared illegal. The only change was a rule that stated that mixed tech units, which are what a lot of the second line Clan mechs were at first, not counting the IIC mechs, can not be used in offical tournement play. That has been stated repeatedly by Randal.
So please show me an errata sheet that gives a list of any mech that is now illegal to use in BT...hell even LAMs are still allowed if the players so choose to use them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/22/03 02:58 PM
68.21.149.206
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Very logical and very true...same thing happens in mordern militaries...that is why most nations reserve units have second line or older equipment...oh wait I am trying to apply logic and reason to Battletech...bad Karagin Bad karagin...   
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 03:10 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Face it Bob, you are wrong on the minimum range part and it's been proven to you repeatedly.<<<
Maybe and no.
Maybe I am wrong, and you've not proven it.
In any case, I am done arguing until I have a copy of page 226.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 03:11 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I did prove you wrong, sited the page from the TR3050 and as pointed out there never was an errata to change that so you have been proven WRONG, live with it.<<<
No, I have not, certainly not by you.
In any case, I don't even care.
>>>The mechs are NOT illegal just because you feel they should be.<<<
And that is not what I said.
>>>IS mechs can use CLAN Launchers and ammo...<<<
This is not even the point we were discussing.
I tire of you, Karagin. This discussion is over.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
01/22/03 03:13 PM
206.102.34.143
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Even then you could just claim "typo". There is a reason it wasn't "corrected" in BattleTech Compendium, BattleTech Compendium: The Rules of War, CityTech 2, BMR, Maximum Tech, BMR-R, Max Tech-R, or BattleTech 5th Ed.
I don't think you having a scan of that page is going to help.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
01/22/03 03:13 PM
68.21.149.206
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Sorry Bob, I proved it, Cadet proved it and every RULE book since TR3050 came out has proven you wrong.
Live with or not, but it's clear as day you are wrong on this issue.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 03:14 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>FASA said Clan secondline have Clan technology. <<<
FASA says a lot of things that don't make sense.
Clan secondline 'Mechs should be old castoffs, not the incredibly powerful beasts they are. They're actually supposed to be at a DISadvantage to front-line Omnis...
>>>What canon Battlemechs became illegal?<<<
Excuse me, OPTIONAL...
...I mean the various Inner Sphere Refits from the Twycross Scenario Pack, particularly.
>>>Even better, what would the point be in having a weapon that is less bulky and swtill the same weight.<<<
Eh. Why WOULDN'T you use the less bulky weapon of the same mass?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/22/03 03:15 PM
68.21.149.206
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Sorry chum, but I did prove you wrong as do the rules of BT...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 03:17 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>There is a reason it wasn't "corrected" in BattleTech Compendium, BattleTech Compendium: The Rules of War, CityTech 2, BMR, Maximum Tech, BMR-R, Max Tech-R, or BattleTech 5th Ed.<<<
I agree. We simply differ on what that reason IS.
FASA often made mistakes that were never corrected, whether in reprintings or in errata.
>>>I don't think you having a scan of that page is going to help. <<<
You could just tell me which page it is. It's the weapon table, right? The one I threw out at the beginning of this discussion?
I didn't expect a straight answer from Karagin, so I didn't ask him, I just asked for a scan, which was not forthcoming.
If it IS the table, I rest my case and we can agree to disagree. If it's the fluff, I stand corrected and we can all go home.
So, which is it, out of curiosity?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
01/22/03 03:18 PM
68.21.149.206
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Once again Bob, the mechs are used by groups like the Dragoons and the Hounds as well as some of the Clans, the only thing that changed was their use in Tournement play...
So they are a part of the canon story and a part of the game, they just have limits on their use in offical tournement play just as some Level 2 items did at one time or another and rumor has it that the new tournament rules will allow ALL level 2 items to be used...but that is a rumor.
So once again you are not correct on the issue of mixed tech mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/22/03 03:20 PM
68.21.149.206
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What mistake Bob? There is no mistake if they never changed the minimums on the Clan launchers...if they had then yes TR3050 would be a typo, but seeing how they have not changed things to this day on the Clan Launchers proves that there never was a typo or mistake in regards to their lack of minimums.
Why can't you understand this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cadet
01/22/03 03:27 PM
206.102.34.143
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But they corrected misprintings in rules, or at least offered up erratta, because these were important things. They never did that for this. So it was intentionally intended to have no range.
As far as fluff, it never expressly stated that only the launcher was improved over time. It isn't a great leap in faith to think that munitions were improved as well. And like I pointed out earlier, the fluff in TRO:3050 was really a very early version of the Clans that left out a lot of what was needed to use them "correctly."
Ultimately it doesn;t matter what logic they came to to improve the Clan LRM. It just is. Trying to explain it away as a fluke is clearly wrong since it never was corrected. Trying to explain it away as a flaw n the fluff is wrong because so much of the fluff is contradictory to rules. In this case maybe moreso, because it was such an early draft of the Clans and their technology.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
01/22/03 03:47 PM
68.21.149.206
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Is tied...with half for and half against...this should be an interesting poll once more folks start to vote on the issue.
It will interesting to see where the majority of the posters here at Sarna stand on this idea. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cadet
01/22/03 03:54 PM
206.102.34.143
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Yeah FASA said a lot of stuff that was stupid, but not here.
I want the best stuff in my front line units. I develop newer more powerful weapons. They are in my frontline units. So all my frontline units have Clan ERPPCs, while all my secondlind and garrison units have Star League PPCs and ERPPCs. Eventually I'm going to have holes to fill in those secondline units, due to parts wearing out, battle loses, accidents, maintainece issues, and what not. At the same time I start to develop Omni Mechs. So I start putting the Omnis in my frontline and moving the Improved Mechs to fill those holes in my Secondline units. We do it today in the real world. Those old Star LEague Mechs would be phased out over time in place of what were once cutting edge Clan Mechs, who in turn were replaced with Omnis.
Now those secondline Mechs are at a huge disadvantage to OmniMechs. They lack the flexibility of the OmniMech. Remember these are machines that are used in battle after battle, campaign after campaign. We might not see it in a single game of BT, but take a Trinary of Secondline Clan Mechs and a Trinary of Omnis and put them in the exact same series of missions. That Hunchback IIC you used in a city today isn't going to be very good out in the plains tomorrow. But you can reconfigure that Mad Cat for whatever you need. Put a couple of UAC/20s today, a couple of GRs tomorrow.
>>Eh. Why WOULDN'T you use the less bulky weapon of the same mass?<<
Why would I when I could have a weapon that is less bulky, wieghs less, has better range? You take that Clan AC-10 with one less crit clot. I'll take the Clan LB-10X that weighs less and has better range and can fire cluster rounds.
There is a reason FASA had to give those special munitions to standard AC weapons for the IS. There was no reason at all for players to use them with every type being available in UAC and LB-X. Even dropping a crit wouldn't be that much of an incentive.
Does not play well with others.
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Nightward
01/22/03 05:29 PM
210.50.57.96
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Karagin, Bob already caved on this one. Calm down, eh?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
01/22/03 05:40 PM
68.21.149.206
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I didn't know they said Eh is Aussieland...I thought that was only a Canadian thing....:D
I am calm...I am cool...it's all good. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/22/03 06:24 PM
65.32.253.120
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In reply to:
Remember TRO:2750? Gauss Rifles used to have ten shots per ton of ammo.
Wow, that is in my first printing copy of TR:2750. I never noticed that.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
01/22/03 06:25 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Not in my first printing copy of TR:2750.<<<
You mean it was "corrected" to 10 later on and then changed back? Amusing. 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
01/22/03 06:31 PM
65.32.253.120
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In reply to:
You mean it was "corrected" to 10 later on and then changed back?
Whatever are you talking about, Bob, and why did you misquote me like that? 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cadet
01/22/03 10:49 PM
206.102.33.148
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Every copy of TRO:2750 I have ever seen has had 10 shots per ton of Gauss Rifle ammo.
Does not play well with others.
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Countergod
01/22/03 10:49 PM
160.39.139.144
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In reply to:
Play me MegaMek sometimes and I'll show you otherwise
Would love to, save that I cant get megamek to work on my computer for some reason
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck 
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Countergod
01/22/03 10:52 PM
160.39.139.144
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err clan Uac's and LB-X's are the same weight, but the LB-10X gives off less heat, a definite adantage 
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Countergod
01/22/03 10:54 PM
160.39.139.144
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But battletech DOES have a certain logic to it, just not much
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |